The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Winter]

A shit ton.

In terms of Kingdom Hearts, smartass.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I can't stand this fucking insistence that every C/A interaction in any way is something that HAS to be significant.

But the clip of them at the end of KH was significant, they were singled out from the rest of the FF crew.

 

[Fighter]

Given what happened to their original characters their meeting would be meaningful regardless of light/love/whatever.

Really? You're really going to use this argument? Because quite frankly, he spends all of AC with an expression on his face that says he cares about Tifa and Denzel about as much as he cares about a cat turd.

Now, now. The scene in the church doesn't only depict an emotional reaction but is also deliberately symbolic of what the characters mean to each other.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No. Cloud not being a moron assumed Sora was looking for his own light when he said "i'm searching too". Was Cloud supposed to think he meant his light or even Sephy? No. Sora brought up looking for his own light and Cloud responded.

Again, no, Sora did not. He said he was searching, and that was that. Cloud concluded that he meant something personal by it.

I like how you argue with all my points. Then agree with someone else on those very same points.

Because I was finishing our debate on the terms under which it had begun (us both believing Cloud had said he couldn't find the light).

Just say it. "Vendel was right". C'mon I know you can do it.

Vendel was right. But not due to the reasoning by which he argued the matter.

On the subject of the inner/outer light dichotomy, I'm still not so sure it's so much 'they are my light' as 'they hold my light' especially given such things as the prologue of Birth By Sleep where people can transfer their light to others, though, granted, we had that in KH and KH2, but in BBS we now have it that you can do it even if the other involved isn't 'your light.'
Of course... it may be that the act OF transferring light to someone is what makes them 'your light' but that's a can of worms in itself.
There are also implications you can transfer your darkness too. And make people 'your darkness' or at least have it manifest as a person.

I like it.

Still has its logistical concerns, of course, but what doesn't in KH's mythos?

It's not so much that I find the whole light deal confusing, it's that people insist Cloud WASN'T looking for Aerith in KH, when the game very much implied that he was.

It doesn't really matter whether she was his light, or he was also looking for Sephiroth. It was plain as day that he was searching for Aerith too, and he found her at the end of the game.

Well, it was plain as day with how it was presented in the original Japanese release and the North American version, yes. With KH:FM having both Cloud and Aerith say he was looking for Seph -- especially now that we know Cloud never said he was looking for light at all -- it's not obvious in any way, and, in fact, appears to be completely baseless.

Plus, like Fighter said, he ran from his light in KHII.

We now only have reason to believe that he had ever looked for Seph.

Is it a retcon? Changing the story? I think so, yes. But it is what it is.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Is it a retcon? Changing the story? I think so, yes. But it is what it is.

All they did is add more information that flowed perfectly with what we already knew, which wasn't a lot. If they had changed or removed things from the story that specifically made Aerith appear to be his light, then yes, sure it's a retcon.

As it stands though, it seems more like it was always meant to be that way and they simply decided to correct people's false assumptions.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I can't stand this fucking insistence that every C/A interaction in any way is something that HAS to be significant.

Ilu

I'm just going to leave this here. So people can look at the kind of things we are being shown in the credits.

 

[looneymoon]

Wasn't the original KH intended to be a standalone entry? If that were the case, then I think it was the original intention to have Aeris as the light he lost sight of. Especially considering he was likely seperated from the rest of the Hollow Bastion crew prior to the game. Sephiroth was probably intended to be the person he was looking for, but because they couldn't get him into the original release they settled on the idea that Cloud was looking for his light (Aeris). After adding Seph to NA/Final Mix versions, the story slightly changes to "Cloud loses sight of the light when searching for a way to eliminate his darkness." The ending credits have a new meaning - that Cloud has eliminated his darkness and has returned to the light. And they all live happily ever after, the end.

Of course, it's not the end when KH2 comes along. The writers then have the inexplicable need to continue Cloud's story for whatever reason, despite it being more-or-less resolved in the previous game. The problem arises when they don't really know how to continue his storyline. It's very obvious that Cloud's arc in KH2 was not something they considered during the original KH. As a result, the entire storyline just seems very awkwardly told and convulted. Not to mention makes Cloud seem like a gigantic douchenozzle.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

uh it looks to me like a series of significant reunions/happy events. Pinocchio is a real boy, the nephews go back to Daisy and Minnie, Cloud and Aerith meet up again, Jasmine and Aladdin are reunited, Selphie, Wakka and Tidus are all playing together again, heck, the only real 'fluff' entry would be the last bit where they show the princesses of heart curtsying.

I'm not going to scream OMG CLERIF IS DA CANONZ!!11! because of that ending, but I would definitely say that Cloud and Aerith are pretty important to each other if it was included with the rest of the happy events.

 

[Fighter]

Ah, but in the good old days that was like the ultimate proof... and Tifa would nevah be in KH!1!! *giggle*

And then of course, like with so many other things, to massive denial and disbelieve....

 

[Madame Mayor]

Wasn't the original KH intended to be a standalone entry?

The ending and epilogue make me think otherwise, but I know nothing about whether this was said or not.

uh it looks to me like a series of significant reunions/happy events. Pinocchio is a real boy, the nephews go back to Daisy and Minnie, Cloud and Aerith meet up again, Jasmine and Aladdin are reunited, Selphie, Wakka and Tidus are all playing together again, heck, the only real 'fluff' entry would be the last bit where they show the princesses of heart curtsying.

Right, but does it look like 'big reveal about a character's entire story arch'? Cause if it was revealing that he was looking for Aerith all along that's what would be happening.

However, if we assume what we know is true, and that Cloud isn't finding the person he was searching for the whole time, and is just returning home to the FF gang, then it fits just fine.

Serious question, does Aerith mention Cloud at all in the game?

I'm not going to scream OMG CLERIF IS DA CANONZ!!11! because of that ending

I think at this point it's beyond whether it implies romance and more about it implying that he was looking for her, and we know he wasn't.

 

[Winter]

you guys just go around your elbow to get to your ass in order to make sure absolutely NOTHING about Aerith and Cloud meeting was REMOTELY significant, don't you?

So if we have all decided it WASN'T romantic, and he WASN'T looking for her, please explain to me why it was included at all?

fuckin' a

All they did is add more information that flowed perfectly with what we already knew

what KH2 did for the Kingdom Hearts storyline was everything that this quote is not. It did not flow, it most certainly did not flow perfectly, and not everything included was shit we already knew. I'm just saying.

Serious question, does Aerith mention Cloud at all in the game?

Yes, she does. Not explicitly but it's pretty clear that she was talking about him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Even though I realize no one listens to me () I feel Cloud/Aerith is pretty much canon in Kingdom Hearts, it's just that Cloud has his head too far up his butt to realize anything besides HOMGSEFFIROF

also tifa isn't human

and she's having sex with the tron guy

 

[Winter]

Even though I realize no one listens to me ()

I do and ilu

I feel Cloud/Aerith is pretty much canon in Kingdom Hearts, it's just that Cloud has his head too far up his butt to realize anything besides HOMGSEFFIROF

I actually think the same thing.

if I were to say Cloud/Aerith was canon in KH no one in this thread could really legitimately disprove me

also tifa isn't human

and she's having sex with the tron guy

i just laughed so hard i scared my roommates

 

[Madame Mayor]

what KH2 did for the Kingdom Hearts storyline was everything that this quote is not. It did not flow, it most certainly did not flow perfectly, and not everything included was shit we already knew. I'm just saying.

I was talking about KH:FM, not KH2, which is what I thought Tres was referring to. KH:FM is where we learn:

KH:FM having both Cloud and Aerith say he was looking for Seph -- especially now that we know Cloud never said he was looking for light at all -- it's not obvious in any way, and, in fact, appears to be completely baseless.

And even then I was only specifically talking about the reveal of Sephiroth being the person Cloud was looking for.

if I were to say Cloud/Aerith was canon in KH no one in this thread could really legitimately disprove me

Burden of proof is on you, not us.

 

[Fighter]

if I were to say Cloud/Aerith was canon in KH no one in this thread could really legitimately disprove me

Huh?

And this romantic relationship is based on what exactly?

 

[Max Payne]

if I were to say Cloud/Aerith was canon in KH no one in this thread could really legitimately disprove me

You couldn't legitimately prove it either so it's irrelevant one way or the other.

What I don't get is, HOW IS THIS RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD.

WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT KH. ITS CLOUD AND AERITH AREN'T EVEN THE SAME PEOPLE AS FF7.

 

[Ryushikaze]

'If you run across someone in your travels, tell him to come home' was the text in KH ENG right? And in KH:FM she explicitly adds 'I wonder if he's found that person yet.'

Btw, the Cloud and Co reunion is located in the fillial conclusions bloc.

 

[ShuShu]

Does Kingdom hearts really mean anything...? I mean... to the relevance of this thread, anyway.

Well, whatever. I reject the notion that Cloud and Aeriths interaction at the end meant entirely nothing. Cloud was looking for someone to kill them, not have a tea party. Like in KH2 they could just be playing it off that he's avoiding all the people he cares about, to do his thing alone.

Burden of proof is on you, not us.

I'd say its an equal attempt on both sides to prove or disprove anything regardless. Thats just me.

Of course, for being the love story or all love stories, Rinoa doesn't even make an appearance to balance out Squall so its safe to say sealing in canon couples wasn't really a priority of KH. Therefor having meaningful scenes would also be cut from the drawing board.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Shushu, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the claimant.

"I'm god, prove me wrong" is not a valid argument. Nor is 'Cloud and Aerith are canon in KH and you can't disprove that'

And yes, KH is gloriously irrelevant to the thread.

Tres, I say we take future Cosmological discussion of KH to the appropriate threads, because it's an interesting sideline, but has spiraled out of control here.

 

[Roger]

Well I don't care how irrelevant it is, I need to respond to this.

Cloud and Aerith are both in Kingdom Hearts. The writers use this opportunity to have them meet again and it's portrayed as something heartwarming and happy. The best reason people can think off the explain this is romantic?

Because I do believe I can think off another difference between Aerith and Cid & Yuffie that would make her reunion with Cloud special beside at one point being a love interest of Cloud.

 

[Max Payne]

Does Kingdom hearts really mean anything...? I mean... to the relevance of this thread, anyway.

It really doesn't mean a damn thing in the least. They're not even the same people. Just made up versions to fit the KH universe. If I'm following the logic right from the games, Sephiroth is the evil born from Cloud's heart in KHs, or something equally stupid.

Well, whatever. I reject the notion that Cloud and Aeriths interaction at the end meant entirely nothing. Cloud was looking for someone to kill them, not have a tea party. Like in KH2 they could just be playing it off that he's avoiding all the people he cares about, to do his thing alone.

I doubt it meant nothing. They're friends after all. I don't get this notion that a man and woman can't be close without being in an intimate relationship. They can just be really good friends you know.

I'd say its an equal attempt on both sides to prove or disprove anything regardless. Thats just me.

I don't really think there's anything to prove or disprove, whatever "evidence" there is, is both paltry and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Winter]

I doubt it meant nothing. They're friends after all. I don't get this notion that a man and woman can't be close without being in an intimate relationship. They can just be really good friends you know.

the only thing that really doesn't make sense about that is that most of the KH relationships echoed their relationships in their respective movies/games. While yeah, Aerith and Cloud were pretty close, I wouldn't mark them as BFFs, certainly not so much so that they get a special reunion.

however, if there had been a bro hug then it'd be a whole other story

because then they are obviously BFFs

 

[Max Payne]

the only thing that really doesn't make sense about that is that most of the KH relationships echoed their relationships in their respective movies/games. While yeah, Aerith and Cloud were pretty close, I wouldn't mark them as BFFs, certainly not so much so that they get a special reunion.

however, if there had been a bro hug then it'd be a whole other story

because then they are obviously BFFs

I don't get what was so special about it. Cloud came back, he greeted Aerith. Where's this echoing whatever? There literally is not "relationship" to any of this beyond them being familiar with each other and the implied friendship. I don't see anyone smooching, hugging, or making any general kind of emotional exclamation to go on. Why would ANYTHING about "Aerith and Cloud" be significant in Kingdom Hearts?

They're not even really Aerith and Cloud. Just poor shadows of the real thing.

 

[Celes Chere]

that being said, if you think Cloud wasn't searching for her please explain to me WHY the game developers bothered to put that scene in there.

Idk, the same reason why they bothered to put Zack and Aerith together and relate her character to his in many ways no matter how many times it gets called "the past" when it applies to the future. WHY IN THE HELL WOULD THE CREATORS FOCUS SO HEAVILY ON ZACKAERITH I mean omg it's just in the past and means nothing anymore.

Don't worry, I don't expect an answer.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

the only thing that really doesn't make sense about that is that most of the KH relationships echoed their relationships in their respective movies/games.

That doesn't really seem to be true for the FF characters. Squall and Seifer's relationship to one another as but one example. In any case, beyond friendship and Cloud seeming to mean an especial amount to Aerith, it's unclear what their KH relationship is, much less how much it may echo the one they had in FFVII.

 

[Max Payne]

That doesn't really seem to be true for the FF characters. Squall and Seifer's relationship to one another as but one example. In any case, beyond friendship and Cloud seeming to mean an especial amount to Aerith, it's unclear what their KH relationship is, much less how much it may echo the one they had in FFVII.

Cloud came off as especial to Aerith in KH to you?

I dunno, the FF squad seemed to be riding Squall's dick pretty hard.

 

[Vendel]

Again, no, Sora did not. He said he was searching, and that was that. Cloud concluded that he meant something personal by it.

FFS

Sora: You’ll find it. I’m searching, too.

Cloud: For your light?

Sora is the one who stated he was also looking for IT. And the it is HIS FUCKING LIGHT. Not Cloud's light. What possible reason would he have to look for that?

So once again it was Sora who equated Clouds struggles with finding his own personal light. And Cloud responded to that.

you guys just go around your elbow to get to your ass in order to make sure absolutely NOTHING about Aerith and Cloud meeting was REMOTELY significant, don't you?

Cloud and Aerith have plenty of significant interactions in the FFVII universe. JUST NOT IN THE WAY THE SHIPPERS WANT.

And they have absolutely none in the AU stuff. Her most significant roll is Cloud's cheerleader in KH2.