The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Winter]

Yes we considered it for exacatly one second. Then Cloud, Sephy and Aerith all point out he was looking for Sephy-Poo.

which is why he said he was looking for his light

because cloud is SO STUPID he thought sephiroth was his light

 

[Vendel]

which is why he said he was looking for his light

because cloud is SO STUPID he thought sephiroth was his light

When did he ever say he was looking for his light?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Balthea: Thanks for your response to my question. Did you play the game before KHII came out or after? Having played it right after the original was released, I think I and many others believed the game would be self-contained, or at least that the smaller plot threads of side characters were resolved.

I don't remember exactly, it certainly wasn't right after it came out. However, the ending didn't feel like an ending to me, it was obvious that this small chapter was done but that the entire story was far from over.

which is why he said he was looking for his light

because cloud is SO STUPID he thought sephiroth was his light

So wait, the characters all telling us he's looking for Sephiroth isn't good enough for us to come to the conclusion that he was looking for Sephiroth?

 

[Celes Chere]

also, Aeris did not just "sit around and wait" for Cloud. Aeris is a fucking heartless-fighting badass that spends her time being sexy and reading books and translating shit that Ansem the fucking Wise wrote and nobody else was smart enough to even read so FUCK YOU GUYS

LOL WOOOAH calm down. I wasn't trying to talk down about Aerith with that comment. <XD I love her. I didn't mean to imply that she did absolutely nothing in the story... she just didn't really help Cloud out in Kh2.

Aerith did wait for Cloud. Ahem, her exact words:
"So I'll stay here - And I'll cheer for you - okay?"
Cloud: Okay -leaves-

HOW ROMANTIC :B :B :B

I'd say KH2 Aerith is more cute than sexy.

 

[Splintered]

Which is built on quite a lot of assumption. For all we know, Cloud landed in Traverse as well and then buggered off.

Which, in of itself, is quite an assumption. Read her post again, the only way any of this makes sense is if you assume and fill in the blanks a lot.

And for the final time, no, I don't believe Cloud was looking for Aerith. I thought that in KHI because it made it seem that way until KHII disproved it. It's completely natural people thought this way the way KH was first released.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Aerith did wait for Cloud. Ahem, her exact words:
"So I'll stay here - And I'll cheer for you - okay?"
Cloud: Okay -leaves-


HOW ROMANTIC :B :B :B

tbh this is pretty much what Tifa did when Cloud was fighting Sephiroth in AC/C.

 

[Celes Chere]

There is more Clephiroth proof every day.

I am sad

 

[Ryushikaze]

...did he hijack a gummy ship, then?

Given Cid sells parts for them, it's possible. Or he could have used another of the myriad ways of traversing the worlds, like how the RG/HB crowd arrived in Traverse town to begin with, or made their way back. Or maybe he used the power of darkness to travel through the corridors.

Which, in of itself, is quite an assumption. Read her post again, the only way any of this makes sense is if you assume and fill in the blanks a lot.

The first part is no assumption and I fully cop to the hypothetical nature of my last part. My point is that we're not sure when he buggered, but yeah, he made it pretty clear to the others before he buggered that he was looking for someone else.

And for the final time, no, I don't believe Cloud was looking for Aerith. I thought that in KHI because it made it seem that way until KHII disproved it. It's completely natural people thought this way the way KH was first released.

I'm just saying they jumped to a conclusion filling in blanks incorrectly, or twisting his scant scenes to have meanings they shouldn't.

Like the people who say Cloud said he was searching for his light. He never says that. The most he ever makes reference to is 'couldn't find the light' but only as a diametric force to Darkness, IE- 'I've been using the dark so much I don't know if I have any light left'.

And KH:FM already disproved it. KHII just made it blatant to the english speaking world who hadn't familiarized themselves with KHFM.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When did he ever say he was looking for his light?

When he said he had been unable to find the light (which necessitates that there was a search), and equated that to Sora looking for his personal light before Sora had done more than say he was searching for something (without even specifying whether it was a person, a thing, a feeling, The Light or his own light).

And Ryu, I find it counter-intuitive to conclude that Cloud was speaking of The Light as a general concept when the terminology of the game includes that concept as well as the concept of personal lights. It just doesn't jibe with a proper literary analysis -- which is going to assume the exact wording "your light" was chosen instead of "the light" for a specific reason, and as a superior choice for whatever the storytellers wanted to convey.

Does this approach give the storytellers too much credit? Perhaps. But I think we will all agree that when it comes to characterization, Nojima is pretty damn good at getting across what he wants the audience to take away. Whatever people might think of his plot devices and choices in events for progressing a narrative -- and there's plenty of disagreement about those (e.g. the orphanage plot twist in FFVIII) -- his dialogue is typically effective.


By the way; Vendel: Velius. Sabin. Terra. Amarant. AeriS. Whatcha gonna do about it? =P

 

[Vendel]

When he said he had been unable to find the light (which necessitates that there was a search), and equated that to Sora looking for his personal light before Sora had done more than say he was searching for something (without even specifying whether it was a person, a thing, a feeling, The Light or his own light).

*sigh* Let us break this conversation down shall we? I will use a handy visual aid.

Sora: So why did you go along with him, anyway?

Cloud: I&#8217;m looking for someone. Hades promised to help. I tried to exploit the
power of darkness, but it backfired. (stands up) I fell into darkness, and
couldn&#8217;t find the light.

Sora: You&#8217;ll find it. I&#8217;m searching, too.

Cloud: For your light?

Cloud is looking for someone(1). To find that someone he made a deal with Hades and tried to use the power of darkness(2). It backfired and he became consumed with darkness and couldn't find "the light"(3).

Sora responds you'll find IT(3). Not them or her or even him(1). And further goes on to say he is searching too.

Cloud responds "For your light"(3)?

So no it was Sora who equated Clouds struggles with finding his own personal light. And Cloud responded to that. Therefore the loss of light was a byproduct of this search. Not it's target.

 

[Strangelove]

When he said he had been unable to find the light (which necessitates that there was a search)

I was going to stay out of this because I try not to think too hard about KH since everything got so tangled and complicated, but I will offer a differing view on this in an elitist, weeaboo way

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12288;&#12300;&#38343;&#12395;&#12392;&#12425;&#12431;&#12428;&#12289;&#20809;&#12434;&#35211;&#22833;&#12387;&#12383;&#12301;

There, he's not saying that he couldn't find the light (which could imply he was looking for it), but that he lost sight of it (which he later warns Sora not to do with the same wording). Which could be that he knew where his light was before then and was still looking for someone, but in his apparent desperation to find that person (going as for to use dark powers to do so) ended up suck in darkness with no light. So the searching was first, then the light stuff. If he hadn't been searching (and then using the power of darkness), he wouldn't have lost sight of the light in first place.

Or something like that. This is the most thought I'm willing to give it now

Although to answer your question from earlier in this thread, I thought it was Aerith he was looking for at first. I imagine that would be an even more likely conclusion for players of the original Japanese version, since there wasn't even optional boss Sephiroth to factor in.

 

[Vendel]

I was going to stay out of this because I try not to think too hard about KH since everything got so tangled and complicated, but I will offer a differing view on this in an elitist, weeaboo way


There, he's not saying that he couldn't find the light (which could imply he was looking for it), but that he lost sight of it (which he later warns Sora not to do with the same wording). Which could be that he knew where his light was before then and was still looking for someone, but in his apparent desperation to find that person (going as for to use dark powers to do so) ended up suck in darkness with no light. So the searching was first, then the light stuff. If he hadn't been searching (and then using the power of darkness), he wouldn't have lost sight of the light in first place.

Or something like that. This is the most thought I'm willing to give it now

I'm sure you didn't intend this. But thank you for backing up my point with your biased translations.

 

[Ryushikaze]

When he said he had been unable to find the light (which necessitates that there was a search), and equated that to Sora looking for his personal light before Sora had done more than say he was searching for something (without even specifying whether it was a person, a thing, a feeling, The Light or his own light).

That technically indicates there was a search, not that there is one. Rendered past tense and all.
That his search for light was rendered in past tense while his search for someone is present is part of what indicated to me the two were unrelated.
EDIT: And it's even more unrelated what with losing sight of the light instead of not finding it.

And Ryu, I find it counter-intuitive to conclude that Cloud was speaking of The Light as a general concept when the terminology of the game includes that concept as well as the concept of personal lights. It just doesn't jibe with a proper literary analysis -- which is going to assume the exact wording "your light" was chosen instead of "the light" for a specific reason, and as a superior choice for whatever the storytellers wanted to convey.

Does this approach give the storytellers too much credit? Perhaps. But I think we will all agree that when it comes to characterization, Nojima is pretty damn good at getting across what he wants the audience to take away. Whatever people might think of his plot devices and choices in events for progressing a narrative -- and there's plenty of disagreement about those (e.g. the orphanage plot twist in FFVIII) -- his dialogue is typically effective.

Cloud uses 'Your' to refer to Sora's light, yes, but Sora uses 'it' to refer to the Light Cloud speaks of twice. Cloud also used 'it' and 'the' when referring to the light relevant to him. This sounds incredibly odd if Cloud intends to be speaking of a person, much less Aerith. Them would make far more sense if you wanted to keep it vague, instead of rendering the light an impersonal object.
But my point isn't to suggest that the light must be 'The' light, but rather that Cloud never actually expresses that he has been searching for light, just a lament that he lost sight of it in his use of darkness to find X. Sora cheering him up saying 'You'll find it' doesn't require that Cloud be searching for his light. To me, it actually makes more sense as words of encouragement in response to a defeatist tone. 'I lost sight of it' 'You'll find it, get searching' and all that.

The overall point isn't that the elements are not there, but that you have to look at those elements funny, ignore other elements, and make assumptions that nonexistent elements are true for this one to arrive. Especially after KH:FM dropped and made it explicit, much less KH2.
Speaking of Noj's dialog, we typically use the English version. Does the JP version also say 'your?' I don't wish to split hairs, but if we are concerning ourselves with the context of a single word, it might be worth comparing versions.

 

[Strangelove]

It's still 'your' (&#12362;&#12414;&#12360;&#12398;&#20809;&#12434;&#65311.

At 2:20 onwards, Cloud's scene.

Phil kind of reminded me of Gendou Ikari just now and it scared me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

*sigh*

Agreed.

Sora responds you'll find IT(3). Not them or her or even him(1).

Why would he?

Cloud responds "For your light"(3)?

So no it was Sora who equated Clouds struggles with finding his own personal light. And Cloud responded to that.

Cloud was the one to use "your." Sora did not. Therefore, Cloud was the one to establish an equivalency -- if one exists -- between Cloud's search and "For your light?"

Therefore the loss of light was a byproduct of this search. Not it's target.

I don't think that's any different than what I've been saying, honestly. The proposal I've always made is that Cloud resorted to the power of darkness to search (both for Sephiroth and "the light") and became mired in it, leading to him getting all down on himself.

That technically indicates there was a search, not that there is one.

That's more the point I've been making -- that Cloud at least searched at some point ("couldn't find" is rendered in past tense, after all) for light in addition to searching for Sephiroth. As for whether he was actively searching during the events of KH, I wouldn't have suggested that.

It's obvious from his demeanor that he had all but given up on himself where the subject of light is concerned.


In any event, with hito's recent post detailing that Cloud said he "lost sight of" the light, I concede that he did not speak of searching for it. I agree with your interpretation of things -- Sora was being encouraging, while Cloud was being perceptive.

What's funny is that I had checked the Japanese dialogue once to make sure Cloud used "For your light?" but didn't bother making sure that he spoke of searching for light rather than losing sight of it. Kind of embarassing.

All that said, I still hold that the external/inner light dichotomy may well exist, as it isn't dependent on this matter. For me, the evidence is as simple as the fact that we've seen people be the lights for others and we've seen at least one internal light manifest.

 

[Vendel]

Cloud was the one to use "your." Sora did not. Therefore, Cloud was the one to establish an equivalency -- if one exists -- between Cloud's search and "For your light?"

No. Cloud not being a moron assumed Sora was looking for his own light when he said "i'm searching too". Was Cloud supposed to think he meant his light or even Sephy? No. Sora brought up looking for his own light and Cloud responded.

I don't think that's any different than what I've been saying, honestly. The proposal I've always made is that Cloud resorted to the power of darkness to search (both for Sephiroth and "the light")

Except that is wrong and you admit as much........

In any event, with hito's recent post detailing that Cloud said he "lost sight of" the light, I concede that he did not speak of searching for it. I agree with your interpretation of things -- Sora was being encouraging, while Cloud was being perceptive.

I like how you argue with all my points. Then agree with someone else on those very same points. Just say it. "Vendel was right". C'mon I know you can do it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

On the subject of the inner/outer light dichotomy, I'm still not so sure it's so much 'they are my light' as 'they hold my light' especially given such things as the prologue of Birth By Sleep where people can transfer their light to others, though, granted, we had that in KH and KH2, but in BBS we now have it that you can do it even if the other involved isn't 'your light.'
Of course... it may be that the act OF transferring light to someone is what makes them 'your light' but that's a can of worms in itself.
There are also implications you can transfer your darkness too. And make people 'your darkness' or at least have it manifest as a person.

 

[Fighter]

What is it that people find so complicated about the 'light' deal?

It's a simple metaphor for Cloud's character. He can't overcome the darkness of his past to live in light of the present. Dichotomy represented by Sephiroth and Tifa respectively - like AC.


PS. The KH1 storyline if it ever implied everything the clerii say has long since evolved into something different. One can cry retcon if they wish.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Narratively, Fighter, it's as simple and plain and day. It's the comological aspect of it all that gives a bit of pause.

 

[Winter]

It's not so much that I find the whole light deal confusing, it's that people insist Cloud WASN'T looking for Aerith in KH, when the game very much implied that he was.

It doesn't really matter whether she was his light, or he was also looking for Sephiroth. It was plain as day that he was searching for Aerith too, and he found her at the end of the game.

There's absolutely no reason why they'd show Cloud and Aerith's reunion specifically unless he'd been looking for her.

At the end of the day I would say it's completely logical to assume that Cloud was looking for Aerith because he thought she was his light.

may I also add that I find it awesome that Aerith embodies both light and darkness in KH.

 

[Vendel]

It's not so much that I find the whole light deal confusing, it's that people insist Cloud WASN'T looking for Aerith in KH, when the game very much implied that he was.

It doesn't really matter whether she was his light, or he was also looking for Sephiroth. It was plain as day that he was searching for Aerith too, and he found her at the end of the game.

Except the whole everyone and their mother telling us he is looking for Sephy.

There's absolutely no reason why they'd show Cloud and Aerith's reunion specifically unless he'd been looking for her.

His reaction sure looks like he was searching for her.

Oh wait.

At the end of the day I would say it's completely logical to assume that Cloud was looking for Aerith because he thought she was his light.

No it really isn't. On either count.

 

[Winter]

Except the whole everyone and their mother telling us he is looking for Sephy.

Define "everyone and their mother".

His reaction sure looks like he was searching for her.

Really? You're really going to use this argument? Because quite frankly, he spends all of AC with an expression on his face that says he cares about Tifa and Denzel about as much as he cares about a cat turd.

However, this is Cloud, and we all know he cares more than he lets on.

that being said, if you think Cloud wasn't searching for her please explain to me WHY the game developers bothered to put that scene in there.

 

[Fighter]

KH2 implies Cloud was never really looking for his light (he actually was afraid of it). He was trying to defeat his darkness, which only led him to be more consumed by it and as Tifa suggests is not the way to go about it. He didn't need to get rid of his darkness he needed to surround it with light.

 

[Vendel]

Define "everyone and their mother".

A shit ton.

Really? You're really going to use this argument? Because quite frankly, he spends all of AC with an expression on his face that says he cares about Tifa and Denzel about as much as he cares about a cat turd.

However, this is Cloud, and we all know he cares more than he lets on.

Say what you will about AC Cloud. He at least reacts.

that being said, if you think Cloud wasn't searching for her please explain to me WHY the game developers bothered to put that scene in there.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I can't stand this fucking insistence that every C/A interaction in any way is something that HAS to be significant.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Define "everyone and their mother".

Cloud and Aerith (insert monster smiley here)

I really didn't think he was searching for Aerith at all, actually, even with the end, and didn't think others thought he might til they expressed the idea. I figured at the end with his demons dealt with- his pawnhood under Hades broken, he decided to head home for the time being or Cid found his ass and dragged him home.

Like I said, I never got that who Cloud was searching for was in any way positive, and I never got that he was looking for his light.