The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Vendel]

What matters is, whether he really was or not, KH clearly gives the impression that he's looking for his "light." The way that entire conversation was phrased around Sora, Cloud, and "light" made it very easy to infer what Cloud was searching for. That and there was an emphasis on Cloud meeting Aerith in the ending.

So Cloud=>looking for light => Finds Aerith at the end of his journey

Having never played KH. Was Aerith really that difficult to find? Was she hiding?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're wrong. Your supposition about him looking for his light is just supposition.

It's called "interpretation," actually.

And, uh:

Sora: So why did you go along with him, anyway?

Cloud: I’m looking for someone. Hades promised to help. I tried to exploit the
power of darkness, but it backfired. (stands up) I fell into darkness, and
couldn’t find the light.

Sora: You’ll find it. I’m searching, too.

Cloud: For your light?

There's plenty there to be interpreted in that direction. Especially since the dude admits to looking for the light and concludes that Sora "searching too" means searching for "your light."

The whole assertion of an inner and outer light is FF_Goddess nonsense ...

I like how you can tell me where I got an idea even though I came to that conclusion entirely without her suggesting it.

... and its not supported by any tangible fact from the story.

Except all the tangible facts I've posted in this and my previous post. The only thing not known to be definite fact is the conclusion I drew from those tangible facts.

If it were, it would've been said.

You mean the same way it was said in the game "There can't be an inner and an outer light. A person only has one"? Because that wasn't said either.

Well, it's obvious from his context, actually. Cloud doesn't have to be actively searching, since the subject was just how he'd lost sight of the light while using the darkness.
Cloud can realize Sora is speaking of light and searching for it even if he's not searching himself.

Sora's use of "too" without a clarification from Cloud that establishes a difference makes the context such that they're both implied to be speaking of the same thing.

In fact, Sora makes no indication that the light he's searching for is a person, so Cloud COULD be searching for 'The light' in general even if he's searching for it.

Sora doesn't need to mention that he is searching for a person since Cloud already has. Furthermore, Cloud clearly doesn't have much interest in the light in general since he's gone to his emo place and decided he's mired in darkness. Again, we see him fleeing from the embodiment of his inner light in KHII.

Key word, IF.

Yes, and I used "if" because I was setting up a line of interpretation and drawing conclusions from it. Follow the flow of the paragraphs.

Or it might have simply been 'the light' since even in the first game there are examples of lights not held in other people.

Sure, if his personal light is something other than a person. I can't recall any examples of that, though.

I have the idea that there IS no distinction between inner and outer light, that 'external lights' are people who embody or represent a person's own light. Keepers, as it were, not distinct from the original light.

This is an interesting idea (which, by the way, Mako, is not outright stated any more than my proposed take on things ), but it raises some logistical concerns in my mind, such as what happens in the event that a keeper dies.

He kind of knew where everyone was to begin with. His issue was like Cecil, finding his own internal light, to find his twilight balance.

But he resorted to using the darkness to deal with a matter involving the light -- arguably his own at that.

Because FFVII is beholden to KH?

So they claim.

What matters is, whether he really was or not, KH clearly gives the impression that he's looking for his "light." The way that entire conversation was phrased around Sora, Cloud, and "light" made it very easy to infer what Cloud was searching for. That and there was an emphasis on Cloud meeting Aerith in the ending.

Yes, thank you. One has to look at the overall context of presentation in these things and the meaning that can be inferred from that. This is how analysis is done when it is performed properly. You don't just look at what is plainly stated, but also what choices a director makes with visual and thematic cues (motifs and the like) -- and the statements they make as a result.

EXAMPLE: Nothing about the final episode of "Cowboy Bebop" blatantly tells us that

Spoiler

Spike died (how many times had he been jacked up, on occasion wounded even more grievously than in this episode?)

, but looking at the motif of stars falling, the thematic parallel between him and the story of the tiger-striped cat who died a million deaths, and the visual metaphor in the final seconds of a star blinking out, we are told.

So with Cloud, we have that conversation with Sora, as well as what the Clerith fundamentalists have often pointed out: the shot of Aerith waiting for Cloud in the credits of KHII that parallels shots of Kairi doing the same for Sora.

Again, a consistent, inclusive analysis will not ignore these things.

It's not until three years later does the franchise shit on all these theories. They completely dropped the light thing. It's obvious from II he's not looking for it, he was probably never looking for it, and he hasn't found it because his core behavior has not changed and Tifa had to offer him her light to keep him from sinking. And what would be the point of him searching for his light when at the same time, he's running away from something "warm." They're not the same but that's still pretty fucking counter intuitive.

A fair point, though we know he had at least previously searched for the light, as he told Sora as much -- whatever he meant by that.

Nomura wrote in Tifa, thought it would be cool to generate some discussion and later made her an ambiguous entity, not really thinking about the mythology and continuity.

Nojima wrote her in, but Nomura threw out all the stuff that would make her presence something other than ambiguous.

The result gave him exactly what he wanted, fans going crazy and making up random shit that probably has no significance so that we can all argue and bitch about it five years later. The man is a troll master.

This much I completely agree with.

I really wish I understood why people think their two second 'hey whats up' in the credits is that important. Cloud comes back, Aerith walks up to him to greet him.

Again, this is where directorial intent and a properly conducted inclusive analysis come into play. Especially before Final Mix was out.

We have Cloud saying he's looking for someone (indeed, he even used the power of darkness to find this person), and this is the crux of his personal story. And the final shot we have of him is being reunited with Aerith.

Be honest, people: Is there any one of you (other than Ryu; and I'd like to know why since Seph wasn't even in the story for almost a year) who thought that it wasn't Aerith he was looking for prior to the Showdown of Fate scene from Final Mix?

Sephy is a side boss in the original (maybe not the Japanese original), it's just Aerith's line about Cloud looking for him which is added ...

The Showdown of Fate scene was exclusive to the FM version as well, and that scene includes Cloud telling Seph that he was looking for him.

... and honestly I think that was done because so many people thought she was the one Cloud was looking for and wanted to clear that up.

I think it's because they changed the story. Seph wasn't even in the Japanese original, and he had no story scenes at all (including none with Cloud) in the North American version.

What was there prior to FM pointed to Aerith. I will argue this forever if I must.

 

[Celes Chere]

Lol, Aerith wasn't hiding. She was working with Squall and Yuffie while Cloud dealt with his personal shit. KH2 hops around and Aerith says "Even if you go far away, your light will lead you back here."

His light is obviously not her, and he is obviously not searching for Aerith since he's leaving again to beat the piss out of Sephiroth. (That's when he sees Tifa, and Cleriths believe that Cloud was blinded because he hates Tifa because she's a dirty ho. When in actuality, Cloud is a being of darkness atm, and her light is too bright for him. This is why he shields his eyes. THEN Tifa gives Cloud her light and he and Sephiroth disappear into the air and Tifa goes after him again. Aerith just sits there and flirts with Squall waits for him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lol, Aerith wasn't hiding. She was working with Squall and Yuffie while Cloud dealt with his personal shit. KH2 hops around and Aerith says "Even if you go far away, your light will lead you back here."

His light is obviously not her ...

Again, I'm suggesting the existence of two different lights here. An external light and an inner one. Under this reading, his inner light (Tifa) would lead him back.

... and he is obviously not searching for Aerith since he's leaving again to beat the piss out of Sephiroth.

And I'm not saying that he was searching for his light in KHII. I don't think you're following me.

I'm saying that at the time the man blatantly said he had sought the light (again, those are his words, not mine), he may well have been seeking an external light -- one that wasn't Tifa.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Where does external light come from?!?

Seriously! That's just a theory FF_Goddess spouted out! Stop treating it as fact supported by definitive depiction from the narrative! She's brainwashing you!

 

[Celes Chere]

I was talking to Vendel, don't post faster than me you stupid hocake.

And yeah, external light? Proofz or it didn't happen.

 

[Vendel]

Lol, Aerith wasn't hiding. She was working with Squall and Yuffie while Cloud dealt with his personal shit. .

So again how was Cloud searching for Aerith? Does he just have a very bad sense of direction?

 

[Makoeyes987]

He wasn't. He chose to go follow wherever Sephiroth was, and it just so happened it took him into a Disney Movie world.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So again how was Cloud searching for Aerith? Does he just have a very bad sense of direction?

uh he was in a different world.

AND I DON'T THINK HE HAS A GUMMY SHIP TO GO OVER THERE JUST SO YA GUYZ KNOW.

so yeah if Aerith was the person he wanted to see, he would have difficulty finding her

 

[Makoeyes987]

But didn't the KH Ultimania say Cloud was basically left behind when everyone left Hollow Bastion, and instead, he just fended for himself, and went where he wanted?

He says himself that he's chasing after Sephiroth to settle things, and all. If he was really after Aerith, why wouldn't he have tried to go with them to where they went?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

But didn't the KH Ultimania say Cloud was basically left behind when everyone left Hollow Bastion, and instead, he just fended for himself, and went where he wanted?

He says himself that he's chasing after Sephiroth to settle things, and all. If he was really after Aerith, why wouldn't he have tried to go with them to where they went?

how the fuck should i know, i don't have an ultimania

 

[Makoeyes987]

Derp on me then.

 

[Vendel]

uh he was in a different world.

But Cloud is from Hollow Bastian right? So he left HB and then decided to look for the chick who was there the whole time?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

But Cloud is from Hollow Bastian right? So he left HB and then decided to look for the chick who was there the whole time?

I believe Tifa said they went back to their 'original worlds' in KH2 when Cloud and Sephy were fighting in Radiant Garden.

 

[Splintered]

Having never played KH. Was Aerith really that difficult to find? Was she hiding?

In a different world. Same can't be said about Sephiroth, who iirc, was in the exact same world as Cloud.

None of KH shit makes sense. We should do ourselves a favor and not go too literal with the game lest we start banging our heads against our monitors.

EDIT: Cloud is confirmed to be from Hallow Bastion. But the world went to shit after it got invaded, who knows how they got separated.

 

[Max Payne]

how the fuck should i know, i don't have an ultimania

It kinda says all this in bios in the games if I remember correctly.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Where does external light come from?!?

Drawing conclusions from the vagueries of the story. This is the same kind of analysis you and I have been doing for years.

Seriously! That's just a theory FF_Goddess spouted out! Stop treating it as fact supported by definitive depiction from the narrative! She's brainwashing you!

Once again, I was talking about this idea before I'd ever heard anyone attribute it to FFG. In fact, during a debate with her, I proposed it with no knowledge that she ever had.

Actually, I'm interested to know when she started talking about it. I'm wondering if I may have given her the idea.

But Cloud is from Hollow Bastian right? So he left HB and then decided to look for the chick who was there the whole time?

Hollow Bastion was overrun with Heartless. Aerith wasn't there for years, until Sora and co. made it more hospitable.

 

[Vendel]

Hollow Bastion was overrun with Heartless. Aerith wasn't there for years, until Sora and co. made it more hospitable.

Holy shit I take back everything I have ever believed about KH. Cloud WAS looking for Aerith. She is his inner light and Tifa his outer light which would lead him BACK to his inner light. And all of this proves that Cloud loves Aerith and not Tifa in FFVII. Because Nomora said the answers are there.

Spoiler

 

[looneymoon]

All the FF crew (Cloud, Aeris, Cid, Yuffie and Leon) are from Hollow Bastion. Hollow Bastion goes to shit and they get seperated. Aeris, Cid, Yuffie and Leon somehow manage to land in Traverse Town together. Cloud ends up in the Olympus Colosseum chilling out with Hades and being emo. He also stole Vincent's cape. Oh, and Sephiroth is there too but we don't really know where the fuck he came from.

So Cloud says he's looking for something. Probably his light, at least that's what he implies. But then Cloud finds Sephiroth and says he was looking for him. Cloud is kinda a derpy retard if he's looking for Sephiroth, since I'm assuming Sephiroth has been in the same building as him for X amount of time. So Sephiroth is his light? No, makes more sense for Sephiroth to be his darkness. They duel and stuff. Cut to the end of the game, where all the characters are returning home. Cloud and Aeris share a moment. Aha! So Aeris is the light, right?

Nope. Fast forward to KH2, Cloud is leaving Aeris. Aeris says something about finding light, so she can't be the light. Tifa is also looking for Cloud. Behind portraits. Cloud and Tifa are both derpy retards. Cloud fins Sephiroth (again??) and they fight. Tifa's there and she gives Cloud light. Cloud runs away from the light to go be with Sephiroth (kinda gay imo). So is Tifa the light? Or is she just giving Cloud light or asagfkhe viueri this does not make sense.

There is a complete chronology of Cloud's journey from KH-KH2 disregarding COM

 

[Ryushikaze]

All the FF crew (Cloud, Aeris, Cid, Yuffie and Leon) are from Hollow Bastion. Hollow Bastion goes to shit and they get seperated. Aeris, Cid, Yuffie and Leon somehow manage to land in Traverse Town together. Cloud ends up in the Olympus Colosseum chilling out with Hades and being emo. He also stole Vincent's cape. Oh, and Sephiroth is there too but we don't really know where the fuck he came from.

So Cloud says he's looking for something. Probably his light, at least that's what he implies. But then Cloud finds Sephiroth and says he was looking for him. Cloud is kinda a derpy retard if he's looking for Sephiroth, since I'm assuming Sephiroth has been in the same building as him for X amount of time. So Sephiroth is his light? No, makes more sense for Sephiroth to be his darkness. They duel and stuff. Cut to the end of the game, where all the characters are returning home. Cloud and Aeris share a moment. Aha! So Aeris is the light, right?

Nope. Fast forward to KH2, Cloud is leaving Aeris. Aeris says something about finding light, so she can't be the light. Tifa is also looking for Cloud. Behind portraits. Cloud and Tifa are both derpy retards. Cloud fins Sephiroth (again??) and they fight. Tifa's there and she gives Cloud light. Cloud runs away from the light to go be with Sephiroth (kinda gay imo). So is Tifa the light? Or is she just giving Cloud light or asagfkhe viueri this does not make sense.

There is a complete chronology of Cloud's journey from KH-KH2 disregarding COM

Which is built on quite a lot of assumption. For all we know, Cloud landed in Traverse as well and then buggered off.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Which is built on quite a lot of assumption. For all we know, Cloud landed in Traverse as well and then buggered off.

...did he hijack a gummy ship, then?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Be honest, people: Is there any one of you (other than Ryu; and I'd like to know why since Seph wasn't even in the story for almost a year) who thought that it wasn't Aerith he was looking for prior to the Showdown of Fate scene from Final Mix?

I played through KH, the NA version, three or four times before this idea was presented to me. Honestly, I never assumed Cloud's story was done, hence why I didn't assume him coming back to the FF gang meant he found what he was looking for.

...did he hijack a gummy ship, then?

All we really know is that Aerith knows Cloud's looking for Sephiroth, which makes me think he must have either told her or made it obvious when he left them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Holy shit I take back everything I have ever believed about KH. Cloud WAS looking for Aerith. She is his inner light and Tifa his outer light which would lead him BACK to his inner light. And all of this proves that Cloud loves Aerith and not Tifa in FFVII. Because Nomora said the answers are there.

Fucking finally. Took you long enough.










Balthea: Thanks for your response to my question. Did you play the game before KHII came out or after? Having played it right after the original was released, I think I and many others believed the game would be self-contained, or at least that the smaller plot threads of side characters were resolved.

 

[Winter]

Have you guys ever considered, just for a second, that maybe Cloud WAS looking for Aeris? Because regardless of she actually WAS his light or not, he was under the impression that she was?

jfc

also, Aeris did not just "sit around and wait" for Cloud. Aeris is a fucking heartless-fighting badass that spends her time being sexy and reading books and translating shit that Ansem the fucking Wise wrote and nobody else was smart enough to even read so FUCK YOU GUYS

AERIS IS AWESOME

 

[Vendel]

Have you guys ever considered, just for a second, that maybe Cloud WAS looking for Aerith? Because regardless of she actually WAS his light or not, he was under the impression that she was?

jfc

also, Aerith did not just "sit around and wait" for Cloud. Aerith is a fucking heartless-fighting badass that spends her time being sexy and reading books and translating shit that Ansem the fucking Wise wrote and nobody else was smart enough to even read so FUCK YOU GUYS

AERITH IS AWESOME

Yes we considered it for exacatly one second. Then Cloud, Sephy and Aerith all point out he was looking for Sephy-Poo.