The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Ryushikaze]

I remember seeing a Clerith vid once to "I'm a Bitch, I'm a Mother, etc". I'll track it down and post it, it was funny, offensive and awesome all at once.

Not Aeti? I am dissapoint.

Viagra?

Aerith only deals in 'Flour' though. S'why she's a 'Flower Seller.' Hiding in plain sight.

Yes, they love Cloud in their hearts but hate that they cannot control their burning desire for each other. They know this is wrong, they shouldn't feel this way, it's forbidden, Cloud is the man who knows their hearts, but dammit, they know each other's bodies like no man ever could. This type of love cannot be spoken of but it transcends speech, transcends thought. On a deeper, spiritual level, they need each other, and hate each other for it. Try as they might, their loathing will always lose out to their lust.

Is it sad I turned myself on just a little bit writing that? :p

Yes. Just a little.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Yes. Just a little.

Well, like the commercials say - give a little, get a lot. :p

 

[looneymoon]

I'm finding the last few string of posts a little ironic since when on-topic, 80% of this thread is bitching about people on the C/A boards and Youtards.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I'm finding the last few string of posts a little ironic since when on-topic, 80% of this thread is bitching about people on the C/A boards and Youtards.

Well I'd bitch about lameass stupid biased Clotis more, but it'd be like telling redneck jokes in Texas.

 

[Madame Mayor]

i really don't think anyone here is on the edge of their seat for the newest DF post.

Used to happen when they updated more a while back.

 

[Shadowfox]

I don't read Destiny Failed much, but I always thought that its failery was deliberate. You know, kind of in the spirit of "if you think we're bad, wait till you see those guys!"

They're just pretending to like each other when they have hot lesbian sex. They really hate each other.

I dunno... Depending on how you write it, hate sex in fiction can make for some compelling reading.

Yes, they love Cloud in their hearts but hate that they cannot control their burning desire for each other. They know this is wrong, they shouldn't feel this way, it's forbidden, Cloud is the man who knows their hearts, but dammit, they know each other's bodies like no man ever could. This type of love cannot be spoken of but it transcends speech, transcends thought. On a deeper, spiritual level, they need each other, and hate each other for it. Try as they might, their loathing will always lose out to their lust.

:thumbs up:

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That falls flat when they keep tuning in to read new installments and keep complaining instead of offering criticisms.

It's more like what Zee said: no one mentions or cares to until someone says that there's a new post and links to it. Then, given the topic of this thread, the rest of us, having been told to check it out, do so.

Sometimes, I think DesFail is as inflammatory as it is not because of internet asshattery, but to try and get folks to actually examine this whole nonsense, self reflect, see if they aren't being asshats themselves.

It's hardly that thoughtful in conception -- much less execution -- and even if it were, doing exactly what you're trying to get people not to do as a way of teaching them not to do it is and always has been fucking retarded.

 

[Splintered]

DesFail is the embodiment of everything that that annoys me about LTD. Anonymous wankery that serves the dual purpose of circle jerking and relentlessly mock people for their own opinions that were never meant to be a debate. And I don't even mind that, it's the fact that they aren't even funny. It's the worst of two worlds

I will admit, they had one or two points that were worth pointing out (the only thing that comes to my mind was the Tifa-rape thing), but for the most part it's "lol look at someone said on their own site, aren't they stupid?"

It's more like what Zee said: no one mentions or cares to until someone says that there's a new post and links to it. Then, given the topic of this thread, the rest of us, having been told to check it out, do so.

This shit keeps getting dragged back here. Because people will cite it, or they'll link to it, so it's never completely separate from here. It's even worse because people associate that shit with this thread for reasons stated above and a few other suspicious that are floating around. This is not the first time someone complained about DesFail, it's like the cockroach that won't die.

I got no problem with taking arguments from other boards and youtube, as long as what we are discussing is the argument and not some circlejerk bitching about the person posting.

 

[Kobato]

What we are saying and that you don't seem to be able to grasp is that the date mechanism doesn't matter, and that SE tells us a story that you can play, and even if YOUR results differ, it doesn't matter because the story goes ONE WAY with its own canon.

In the original game, it did matter. Even though events happened. The event turned out differently, because of the date mechanism. Example could be the Highwind scene, if the love mechanism between Cloud and Tifa are high, they have sex, if the relationship points are low, Cloud will not really care about Tifa, and more about the last day before fighting Sephiroth. If the story went in one direction in the end, Cloud and Tifa would of ended up together in the game's ending, or clearly in ACC.

You can play and never have the romantic scene under the Highwind. It still did occur, and Cloud and Tifa still are in love with each other.

Tifa "No matter how close we are now... We were far apart before."
Tifa "But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."
(She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she bows her head.)
Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."
(Cloud looks away into the distance.)
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."
Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)
Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?"
(She gazes off to one side.)
Tifa "Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
(Cloud looks up at the sky.)
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Yeah it sounds like they are really in love with each other there. Sarcasm I can feel the romance... Cloud only speaks to her about fighting for the planet, and whether they'll be able to save the planet or not. Very romantic.

In case you hadn't noticed, those are all facts stated by the creators themselves, who from people who worked with them. SE is saying 'there, Cloud and Tifa, they are together, they are in love with each other'. The fact that you don't want to understand that makes me ponder about your ability to read.

http://clerith.com/Menu.htm

I can read this pretty well. About the 20th Anniversary Ultimania.

Since this passage states that the conversation between Cloud and Tifa will involve strong emotions for each other only when Tifa's affection level with Cloud is high, this obviously means that only the High Affection version of the scene can be considered romantic. Nojima himself made this clear in the FFVII Ultimania Omega when he stated that the Low Affection version of the Highwind scene is "apathetic and ends short" - click here to see that quote.
As a result, Cloud's feelings for Tifa continue to be portrayed by SE as purely optional. The idea that SE continues to portray Cloud's feelings for Tifa as optional is further reinforced by the lack of any romantic scenes between Cloud and Tifa in either Advent Children or Advent Children Complete. The lack of any such scene obviously means that SE is leaving Cloud and Tifa's relationship open to interpretation. Therefore, despite what CloudxTifa supporters think, the scan from the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania does not make Cloti the canon couple of the game.



This is from the official ultimania, saying from SquareEnix, that Cloti are optional depending on the player's views on who Cloud really loves. If SquareEnix said that Cloti are officially cannon, then why did they bring out the Final Fantasy 20th Ultimania ?

 

[Celes Chere]

I laughed at Desfailed out of bitterness towards some of the members they bring up. I still don't have a problem with it - some of those bitches - are just plain bitches. If they have a right to rant and rave in their Forum or whatever, Desfailed has a right to bitch about things as well. Isn't that the point of a blog anyway? xD

Anyway, I myself am just done caring. "Bitches gonna bitch" and all that. Sometimes I laugh it it, sometimes I don't, who really gives a shit. <XD

You know though, maybe if we all stopped being such fucking assholes to each other, we could move passed it LOL. unless it's Cali because lol

 

[Vendel]

In the original game, it did matter. Even though events happened. The event turned out differently, because of the date mechanism. Example could be the Highwind scene, if the love mechanism between Cloud and Tifa are high, they have sex, if the relationship points are low, Cloud will not really care about Tifa, and more about the last day before fighting Sephiroth. If the story went in one direction in the end, Cloud and Tifa would of ended up together in the game's ending, or clearly in ACC.

I know I am feeding the troll. But since you are playing the "hung up on game mechanics" game I figured it should be pointed out once again that the affection ratings are for the gals (and Barret) towards Cloud. They do not reflect Cloud's feelings at all.

And again one wonders why Cloud and Tifa would be on the page describing romantic love at all if we are just supposed to ignore it.

"C/T confirm mutual feelings under the HW without words...OR NOT! Fool you!"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tifa "No matter how close we are now... We were far apart before."
Tifa "But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."
(She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she bows her head.)
Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."
(Cloud looks away into the distance.)
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."
Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)
Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?"
(She gazes off to one side.)
Tifa "Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
(Cloud looks up at the sky.)
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Yeah it sounds like they are really in love with each other there. Sarcasm

I can feel the romance... Cloud only speaks to her about fighting for the planet, and whether they'll be able to save the planet or not. Very romantic.

In a scene that doesn't exist as far as the official continuity is concerned, just as a version of events where AVALANCHE doesn't recruit Yuffie or Vincent -- while available to players -- is likewise utterly irrelevant as far as the official continuity is concerned.

http://clerith.com/Menu.htm

I can read this pretty well. About the 20th Anniversary Ultimania.

So you can read bullshit distortions someone wrote about it, but not what it actually says? I challenge you to do so, and to read all the information in context.

You can do so best in an essay on this webpage (do a ctrl+f search for "5.235In"):

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

The book in question unequivocally states: "Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

No qualifiers whatsoever. For that matter, pg. 232 -- mentioned in the page you linked -- says this: "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

That's what the main body of the story summary says. It's only off in the margin that we find the "Deviation" blurb that mentions players can see an alternate version.

Keeping in mind, of course, that mention of recruiting Vincent is found off in the margin, as is Vincent's meeting with Lucrecia in her cave. And I think we know what the canonicity of those two events are without having to debate it.

Also, as has been mentioned to you already, the passage I quoted above appeared on the same page as several other unchallengable official couples on a page that begins with a message stating that it's about romantic love. There's entries for Ingus & Sara, Cecil & Rosa, Celes & Locke, Cloud & Tifa, Squall & Rinoa, Dagger & Zidane, Beatrix & Steiner, and Yuna & Tidus -- all appearing with a description of or reference to the scene in which the love between the two was realized or professed.

We have two articles about it right here on TLS:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

By the way, all of those scenes have a page for viewers to look at for more information about the scene, not just the Highwind scene.

You'll notice also that the non-romantic love section on that page mentions an optional scene from FFVI involving Terra that is, nonetheless, treated as canon for the story, both on that page and in the book's summary of FFVI's story.

So, please, don't bring this argument up in here: "It's an optional event, so you can't say it happened one way or the other way. But if it had happened the way you say it did, then we'd see Cloud and Tifa fucking for 90 minutes in Advent Children, so it must have happened the other way."

Because that's exactly what you're doing. You're making the argument that due to it being an optional scene, no one can say it happened on way or another -- only for you to then turn around and say that it must have happened one of those two ways. Look:

This is from the official ultimania, saying from SquareEnix, that Cloti are optional depending on the player's views on who Cloud really loves.

If the story went in one direction in the end, Cloud and Tifa would of ended up together in the game's ending, or clearly in ACC.

Those are your words. How do you reconcile these two statements? Are you even trying to?

Nojima himself made this clear in the FFVII Ultimania Omega when he stated that the Low Affection version of the Highwind scene is "apathetic and ends short" - click here to see that quote.

Except that's not a quote from Nojima at all and is just a summary of events in the Story Playback section of the book.

Here's a real quote from him, though, in which he refers to Cloud and Tifa as being in a romantic relationship:

"Case of Tifa ... first, there's the premise that things aren't going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don't mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith's responsibility is big, I think."

This is from the official ultimania, saying from SquareEnix, that Cloti are optional depending on the player's views on who Cloud really loves.

Except that's not what the book says, but whatevers.

This is from the official ultimania, saying from SquareEnix, that Cloti are optional depending on the player's views on who Cloud really loves. If SquareEnix said that Cloti are officially cannon, then why did they bring out the Final Fantasy 20th Ultimania ?

What kind of question is that?: "If SE said that Cloti is canon, why did they bring out a book that said Cloti is canon?"



Seriously, Yoshi, stop letting people trick you with their bullshit.

 

[Eerie]

Lulzy shitz

I lol'ed. So you mean, Cloud is a jerk who'll live at 7th Heaven just for food and a bed? That he travelled with Tifa and cheered her up because rejecting her is just for lulz and they can be good friends after that? Because Tifa is someone's lover in AC/C, but fuck, certainly not Cloud no.. must be, whoever, but not Cloud?

Your sense of storytelling is terrible. Please never be a writer.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yoshi, just to chime in about you thinking that 'everyone else' thinks you're a Tifa basher because you dislike the C/T pairing, this is not the case. You are being called a basher because you rather unequivocally tried to denounce Tifa as shallow and manipulative during the course of the game.

Many of your other arguments are made either ignorant or willfully ignorant of the actual facts of the matter. You are trying to ignore fact so you can have your opinion.
We are not arguing you about your opinion. Cloud could be better with Red XIII in your head, but the facts certainly do not point to Cloud and Red having a relationship.
And that's what this is about. Facts. Facts about a fictional world, yes, but still facts.
If your facts are wrong, if your evidence if faulty, so too will be your conclusion.

Of course, working backwards from a conclusion is also a good way to be wrong, which is what you seem to be doing with regards to Tifa's lover and trying to find anyone but Cloud to be the one that refers to. You've decided on your hypothesis 'There is no canon pairing', and you're doing your damndest to protect that hypothesis, ignoring evidence that does not suit this view, that points to the idea of a canon pairing. You're also insisting on absurd standards of proof , creating scenarios that characterize all the parties involved and make them into rather unlikable people, and in general employing wall of ignorance tactics to avoid actually addressing the arguments.

Yoshi, if you're legitimate, I would urge you to take a step back and evaluate why you're arguing so hard for the idea that there is no canon pairing. Is it truly because the facts naturally lead you to that conclusion, or are you being colored by something else?
Because I'm rather certain the Clerith.com ladies and gentleman are letting their preference color their perception, and I fear you are too. Perhaps even willfully.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In the original game, it did matter. Even though events happened. The event turned out differently, because of the date mechanism. Example could be the Highwind scene, if the love mechanism between Cloud and Tifa are high, they have sex, if the relationship points are low, Cloud will not really care about Tifa, and more about the last day before fighting Sephiroth. If the story went in one direction in the end, Cloud and Tifa would of ended up together in the game's ending, or clearly in ACC.

Nope. Date mechanics High, they have sex. Date mechanics low--Cloud chickens the fuck out and reveals nothing of his feelings. This is not to say he holds none. Cloud's feelings are non option. Tifa's are what you play with in the game.

Also, Lulzt Troll is lulzy.

 

[Zee]

um tbh i'd like it if you stopped with the copypasta from clerith.com and instead brought your own arguments to the table.

i mean like it just strikes me as a little lazy

 

[Kobato]

I know I am feeding the troll.

I find it hilarious that I'm a 'troll' just because I don't like Cloti.

Also, as has been mentioned to you already, the passage I quoted above appeared on the same page as several other unchallengable official couples on a page that begins with a message stating that it's about romantic love. There's entries for Ingus & Sara, Cecil & Rosa, Celes & Locke, Cloud & Tifa, Squall & Rinoa, Dagger & Zidane, Beatrix & Steiner, and Yuna & Tidus

That has nothing to do with it. It says on the passage that Cloud x Tifa are a optional couple. Please learn to read, and stop being in denial.

You'll notice also that the non-romantic love section on that page mentions an optional scene from FFVI involving Terra that is, nonetheless, treated as canon for the story, both on that page and in the book's summary of FFVI's story.

It's funny that you can understand the Terra part, but when you get to Cloud x Tifa you get sucked into the whirlpool of denial. The Ultimania said that the C/ T is completely optional, you really seem to ignore what you don't want to hear. You might as well stick your fingers in your ears and scream " la, la,la, I can't hear you " !

So, please, don't bring this argument up in here: "It's an optional event, so you can't say it happened one way or the other way. But if it had happened the way you say it did, then we'd see Cloud and Tifa fucking for 90 minutes in Advent Children, so it must have happened the other way."

Again you have issues reading, what you don't want to know. SE said that C/T is optional. The company itself, said that the pairing is optional. How much more clearer do you need it to be ? Do you want SE to scream it from the rooftops ?

Because that's exactly what you're doing. You're making the argument that due to it being an optional scene, no one can say it happened on way or another -- only for you to then turn around and say that it must have happened one of those two ways

No. You are making a agurement by saying that the company has made a pairing official, when they have said themselves, that the pairing is clearly optional.

"Case of Tifa ... first, there's the premise that things aren't going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don't mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith's responsibility is big, I think."

You refuse to acknowledge the official 20th Anniversary ultimania, so you bring up something from Case of Tifa that doesn't even make sense ? You're knowledge isn't that outstanding...

What kind of question is that?: "If SE said that Cloti is canon, why did they bring out a book that said Cloti is canon?""

If you mean " Case of Tifa " SE never said that Cloti was cannon. If you actually read the Ultimania, SE says that the pairings are left up to interpretation. That includes The Case of Tifa.

Seriously, Yoshi, stop letting people trick you with their bullshit.

Because I can actually understand what SE are on about with Cloud's love life ?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Let's be honest, if any pairing in FF7 is canon, it's CloudxLeftHand. I mean really, the guy sits around all day, lives with Tifa, remembers Aerith, you just know he's thinking "dammit, I could have had a threesome!"

And that's why he's emo.

</debate> Forever.

 

[Vendel]

I find it hilarious that I'm a 'troll' just because I don't like Cloti.

No. You are a troll (I hope) because you act like a parody of a "DieForOurShip" clerith.

 

[Kobato]

You are being called a basher because you rather unequivocally tried to denounce Tifa as shallow and manipulative during the course of the game.

When has it been wrong to think negatively of a character's personality ? Not everybody is going to like everybody, that's the way the world goes around. I thought that she was manipulative because it looked like she was refusing to tell Cloud about what really happened in Nibelheim, also opinions on things are not a crime either. I also never said that I never liked Tifa, just that didn't see her so good with Cloud.
I've never said " Tifa sucks " ! once.

Many of your other arguments are made either ignorant or willfully ignorant of the actual facts of the matter. You are trying to ignore fact so you can have your opinion.

I find this hilarious ! My statements are coming from solid proof and backup from online sites.

You've decided on your hypothesis 'There is no canon pairing', and you're doing your damndest to protect that hypothesis, ignoring evidence that does not suit this view,

Again this is even MORE hilarious. I'm not protecting anything, I'm just stating what is fact. C/ T is optional.
I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm the one with the evidence ! And you' re the one ignoring the evidence, that C/T is optional. SE, the company, said it. " Who Cloud loves is up to player ". Cloud and Tifa are shown underneath the Highwind, but so is pictures of Cloud being with Aerith...

http://i49.tinypic.com/20go6k2.jpg

In the Ultimania. All the official relationship pairings are shown. Tidus x Yuna, Zidane x Garnet, Steiner x Beatrix, Squall x Rinoa. And pictures of both Tifa and Aerith.

Yoshi, if you're legitimate, I would urge you to take a step back and evaluate why you're arguing so hard for the idea that there is no canon pairing. Is it truly because the facts naturally lead you to that conclusion, or are you being colored by something else?

You're making it sound I've been 'brainwashed' because I don't like C/T. Yes a group of aliens came down from mars, and they said become a Clorith, otherwise we'll bomb Japan with a giant yellow flying submarine and steal your moneys.

Because I'm rather certain the Clerith.com ladies and gentleman are letting their preference color their perception, and I fear you are too. Perhaps even willfully.

OH NOES. THE EVIL BRAINWASHING ALIENS ARE GOING TO TAKE ME AWAY.

um tbh i'd like it if you stopped with the copypasta from clerith.com and instead brought your own arguments to the table.

i mean like it just strikes me as a little lazy

I'm posting proof to back up my statements, which is important during a debate. I don't see how posting any kind of proof is anyway near lazy, to be honest.

No. You are a troll (I hope) because you act like a parody of a "DieForOurShip" clerith.

I don't see how "DieForOurShip " is saying that both of the Final Fantasy VII pairings, are optional. If I was "DieForOurShip " I would be trying to hammer in C/A to everybody, and say that Tifa was dumb, because she gets too close to Cloud or something..

Normal opinion " Who Cloud loves is optional and up to the game player ".

Dieforourship- " Cloud and Aerith BELONG with each other, and Tifa should diee because she gets to close to Cloud and she is a huge slut, because Cloud loves Aerith !"

Get the difference ?

 

[Vendel]

I don't see how "DieForOurShip " is saying that both of the Final Fantasy VII pairings, are optional. If I was "DieForOurShip " I would be trying to hammer in C/A to everybody, and say that Tifa was dumb, because she gets too close to Cloud or something..

Right. You have yet to back up any of your assertions (you can't). You spout horribly distorted crap about Tifa (but that doesn't mean you don't like her right?). Then you go on and on about how C/T can't be canon (they are).

All various tactics of said (sad?) cleriths. Pretending to be neutral while spouting the crap you do isn't bought by anyone.

You just do it so poorly that I can't help but assume you are a troll. The alternative is worse.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

That has nothing to do with it. It says on the passage that Cloud x Tifa are a optional couple. Please learn to read, and stop being in denial.



It's funny that you can understand the Terra part, but when you get to Cloud x Tifa you get sucked into the whirlpool of denial. The Ultimania said that the C/ T is completely optional, you really seem to ignore what you don't want to hear. You might as well stick your fingers in your ears and scream " la, la,la, I can't hear you " !

lawl wot

it does not say this ever? The Terra part mentions platonic love, and brotherly love for Sabin and Edgar, but Tifa and Cloud are not optional. Hell, picture even mentions whomever you date is the player's choice:

Spoiler

With Cloud and Tifa, it says they confirm their feelings match:

Spoiler

tho rly if you do have actual japanese proof that this page proves it's optional and can go through the words step by step, go rite ahead.

wait, what was that you say? Clerith.com says it's not canon? and Glen Beck says our president is a muslim? Wow you do have such incredible, unbiased sources.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I'm posting proof to back up my statements, which is important during a debate. I don't see how posting any kind of proof is anyway near lazy, to be honest.

Quoting clerith.com isn't proof... it's far from it.

 

[Splintered]

When has it been wrong to think negatively of a character's personality ? Not everybody is going to like everybody, that's the way the world goes around. I thought that she was manipulative because it looked like she was refusing to tell Cloud about what really happened in Nibelheim, also opinions on things are not a crime either. I also never said that I never liked Tifa, just that didn't see her so good with Cloud.
I've never said " Tifa sucks " ! once.

The issue here (for me at least) is that you said Tifa was manipulative. And that she only liked Cloud because she thought he was going to strong and famous (visavi Soldier).

But that's the problem. You could debate that love is optional in FFVII, granted most of the people here will argue that. What you can't debate is the idea that a character's personality is optional. It doesn't work that way in Final Fantasy. There's only one of Cloud/Tifa/Aerith/Barret, etc. You can debate what that personality is, but there's an official canon to who they really are.

Pretending to be a neutral and saying, "I don't hate Tifa, I just think she's manipulative and a bad person for not telling Cloud the truth" doesn't make any sense because you are implying that she's a bad person deep down. But that's not the case. Yes she made a mistake, yes she was insecure, but at the heart of all those decisions to keep quiet was the idea that she wanted to keep Cloud safe. Not for Cloud to keep her safe.

Aerith did something similar I recall, although to a lesser degree. Cloud went batshit in the Temple of Ancients, and when he regained his sanity, he asked if something happened. Aerith said no and convinced whatever other character you brought with to say the same thing. Five minutes later, he snaps and starts to beat her. This wasn't because she wanted to manipulate him. Just that she wanted to protect him.

You're making it sound I've been 'brainwashed' because I don't like C/T. Yes a group of aliens came down from mars, and they said become a Clorith, otherwise we'll bomb Japan with a giant yellow flying submarine and steal your moneys.

wat?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I find it hilarious that I'm a 'troll' just because I don't like Cloti.

Actually, people are thinking you're a troll because you're acting absurdly, such as continually casting this entire exchange as people being mad at you because 'you don't like C/T' when people have explained themselves already.

That has nothing to do with it. It says on the passage that Cloud x Tifa are a optional couple. Please learn to read, and stop being in denial.

It says nothing about their optionality, Yoshi. As for denial,Glass houses and stones.

It's funny that you can understand the Terra part, but when you get to Cloud x Tifa you get sucked into the whirlpool of denial. The Ultimania said that the C/ T is completely optional, you really seem to ignore what you don't want to hear. You might as well stick your fingers in your ears and scream " la, la,la, I can't hear you " !

Glass houses and stones. The Ultimania says who you date is optional. The sharing of feelings is described, time and again, as what happened there. We didn't NEED to be told that. Before this page came around, the people whose arguments you are cribbing recognized that the feelings happened. They argued- rather inanely, IMO- against what those feelings were. This page removed all doubt. So then they tried to change the rules of the game without anyone noticing, saying that it only counts for the high version, so it doesn't count, trying to pretend like it was not already obvious that the High Highwind scene was the canon version of events, just like picking up Vincent and Yuffie.

Again you have issues reading, what you don't want to know. SE said that C/T is optional. The company itself, said that the pairing is optional. How much more clearer do you need it to be ? Do you want SE to scream it from the rooftops ?

A quote where they say the pairing is optional would suffice. One from within the last few years, preferably after the 8 or so instances where it is said Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other at the end of FF7 and live with each other afterwards.

No. You are making a agurement by saying that the company has made a pairing official, when they have said themselves, that the pairing is clearly optional.

If they have said this, then you will provide pictorial evidence and/or a citation. If you cannot, this claim will be taken as a baseless.
Repeating a point does not make it any more true.

You refuse to acknowledge the official 20th Anniversary ultimania, so you bring up something from Case of Tifa that doesn't even make sense ? You're knowledge isn't that outstanding...

Ah, finally, a source of some sort. The problem is, the U20 DOESN'T say what you think it says. Yes, it says 'if' but that doesn't invalidate the canon status of the scene. A bit of text going 'if you go into the woods, a strange ninja will fight you. After you beat her, she will join your party if you answer the questions correctly. If not, she will run away and not join' does not invalidate another bit of text that says 'Yuffie Joined the party at this point in the narrative.' One is speaking to the conditions that need to be fulfilled to get the event which the other is describing as canon.

If you mean " Case of Tifa " SE never said that Cloti was cannon.

[Groucho Marx]Certainly they never said it was a Napoleonic Long Barrel, but then again, why would they?[/Marx]

If you actually read the Ultimania, SE says that the pairings are left up to interpretation. That includes The Case of Tifa.

SE does not say the pairings are left up to interpretation. Instead they say things like 'Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other and live together', 'Cloud and Tifa share their matching feelings' 'Tifa is the only person Cloud has ever opened his heart to' and other variations on those themes.

Because I can actually understand what SE are on about with Cloud's love life ?

But, you can't. I have read the quotes you purport to be speaking of. They do not say what you claim they are saying.

When has it been wrong to think negatively of a character's personality ? Not everybody is going to like everybody, that's the way the world goes around. I thought that she was manipulative because it looked like she was refusing to tell Cloud about what really happened in Nibelheim, also opinions on things are not a crime either. I also never said that I never liked Tifa, just that didn't see her so good with Cloud.
I've never said " Tifa sucks " ! once.

There's not liking a character for who they are, and there's making things up to justify not liking a character. The latter falls firmly into the realm of 'character bashing', and is what you did when you tried to cast Tifa as manipulative.

I find this hilarious ! My statements are coming from solid proof and backup from online sites.

No, your statements are coming from Clerith.com, who are ALSO quite willfully ignorant of the matter. That's an appeal to authority besides.
Your arguments betray that you aren't as familiar with either the material, the meaning of canon, or the nature of conditional statements.

Again this is even MORE hilarious. I'm not protecting anything, I'm just stating what is fact. C/ T is optional.

You aren't. You are stating your conclusion, and failing to support the conclusion beyond your say so and an appeal to an extremely questionable authority.

I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm the one with the evidence ! And you' re the one ignoring the evidence, that C/T is optional. SE, the company, said it. " Who Cloud loves is up to player ".

Then provide this actual evidence. Provide a picture and a source where 'the company' has said you have actual choice.

Cloud and Tifa are shown underneath the Highwind, but so is pictures of Cloud being with Aerith...

http://i49.tinypic.com/20go6k2.jpg

Are you reading from a script? Well, of course you are, you're using Clerith.com as a guide and everyone who does tries this one, it seems. It's not THE PICTURE. It's the text beneath each picture. The text beneath the date picture says 'depending on how you act, different people will join you on the date.', whereas the Highwind text talks about sharing mutual feelings without words, an event that has elsewhere been stated to have happened as a matter of course. The entry elsewhere in the book going 'If you do X, then this' doesn't change that the Ultimanias as a whole consider that scene to have happened.
And why are you pointing to the U10's splash page? There's no actual content there. Are you trying to treat it as evidence?

In the Ultimania. All the official relationship pairings are shown. Tidus x Yuna, Zidane x Garnet, Steiner x Beatrix, Squall x Rinoa. And pictures of both Tifa and Aerith.

I'm familiar with the flowcharts. Are you familiar with the words linking each person?
Wakka and Lulu are Childhood friends.

You're making it sound I've been 'brainwashed' because I don't like C/T.

No, you sound like you're brainwashed because you keep spouting patently false things, not because of your like or dislike of the pairing, and I would thank you in the future to please not put words in my or anyone else's mouth. You seem to be doing that. It might be unintentional, but it is still irritating.

Yes a group of aliens came down from mars, and they said become a Clorith, otherwise we'll bomb Japan with a giant yellow flying submarine and steal your moneys.

OH NOES. THE EVIL BRAINWASHING ALIENS ARE GOING TO TAKE ME AWAY.

Let the record be shown that Yoshi is hostile, even to attempts to be civil, and has attempted to evade the point and focus on this 'brainwash' strawman rather than offer up any legitimate self reflection or explanation.

I'm posting proof to back up my statements, which is important during a debate. I don't see how posting any kind of proof is anyway near lazy, to be honest.

You aren't posting proof. You're ASSERTING that there is proof, but never going to the step of laying it out. You say SE says that it's optional, but never really where.

I don't see how "DieForOurShip " is saying that both of the Final Fantasy VII pairings, are optional. If I was "DieForOurShip " I would be trying to hammer in C/A to everybody, and say that Tifa was dumb, because she gets too close to Cloud or something..

Normal opinion " Who Cloud loves is optional and up to the game player ".

Dieforourship- " Cloud and Aerith BELONG with each other, and Tifa should diee because she gets to close to Cloud and she is a huge slut, because Cloud loves Aerith !"

Get the difference ?

'Die for no ship at all' is close enough to the 'die for our ship' mentality as to make no nevermind.
It's also a common retreating point of people who realize they cannot possibly validate their pairing or military strategy or whatever they're arguing in favor of to try and chip down the argument of everyone else. 'If I cannot win, then no one can.'
Seriously, Yoster. You want get us to believe you don't think there's a pairing, then don't cite Clerith.com. Don't fall into all the same traps as all the other people who've insisted there's no official pair to muscle in their own have done.

And remember, a neutral can come to a 'non neutral' conclusion. They just follow the facts, not their preference.
You've already betrayed your preference, and are now arguing the golden mean. As you're hardly the first, that's bound to set of some warning klaxons.