The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Sigbru]

I guess the only reason it fits best with the plot is because Aerith promised one to him. Both their dialogs foreshadow Cloud's "situation", with Yuffie's and Barret's being more goofy

 

[Ryushikaze]

People are not happy, because I said that Tifa was manipulative, because she didn't tell Cloud the truth about Nibelheim, til he was desperate and mako-poisoned. I 'insulted' Tifa, that's why people are not happy. And if people feel like I have insulted a favourite character of theirs, then I apologize.

It's not that you've 'insulted her' but that you've mischaracterized both her actions and ascribed out of character intentions to the character.

I've been reading Case of Tifa for some hints and things, and it does say that Cloud does smile alot when Tifa is around.

Among other things.

I use Clerith. com because it shows a good side from the C/A side of things, it may of been a little biased.

A lot biased, rather.

But it all based on opinions, and getting comments from a C/T page would be a little strange. I don't think that Clerith.com is ignorant, is seems to show good support and backup on the Clerith point of view, it just seems to be like you don't like what you are reading, because it's Clerith and not Cloti.

That is not the case. Clerith.com is WILLFULLY ignorant. They are aware of the facts and are deliberately misreading them to support their position, leading from their desired conclusion to facts that would support those, and ignoring those facts that would not.

I've shown the Ultimania. A picture of Cloud is shown with Tifa, but Aerith is also shown in "other love " To me other love seems like a choice, why would there be other love ? It's like a spare, or you can make them be together by the date mechanism. Even though Cloud x Tifa seems like the official pairing, you can still have the option of Cloud being with Aerith. See, a choice. You can let the player be with Tifa, or twist things around and make Cloud have a stronger relationship with Aerith.

This isn't actually showing the Ultimania. Nor are you referring to the ACTUAL TEXT of the page. You're arguing that because the two pictures appear, there is a choice, when the text itself denies that choice.

]When have the others been civil to me in return ? "Oh you're a troll". Thanks guys.

The others are irrelevant to my attempt to be civil, Yoshi. You are still equivocating the point entirely.

copy and paste something, that somebody else in this debate has done something civil to me in return, or even maybe nice or kind. You say that I'm being hostile, when I get comments in return like this.

You are being hostile EVEN WHEN I ATTEMPTED TO BE CIVIL, Yoster. I extended an olive branch. You knocked it aside. That other people are being what you consider rude is beside the point.

Not that I give a shit about comments like this, but really you are supporting things that are not hostile, or civil towards the 'enemy " but when the 'enemy " says something 'hostile' it's all of a sudden, bad, horrible, and wrong.

Being hostile is no big deal. Being hostile at the one person attempting to be civil does reveal something about your mindset coming here and I wanted to make public note of it.

Sigh. Look up above.

That's not proof. You're saying that these things are there, but that's not what's actually THERE. At BEST, this confirms both pairings, instead of allowing for a choice, but it doesn't actually confirm C/A.

Wow I wonder what happened to them... did they also get shot down for posting their opinions on the TLD ?

They weren't posting opinions. And neither are you.
And what happened to them is that their biases were revealed in due time. There is a reason people coming in and claiming 'there is no pairing' is suspicious.

The picture appears in several books IIRC, so I guess people take that as meaning it's the canon one.

Yeah, but so does Tifa's. And it appears in her timeline and Cloud's profile, so, yeah.

The date is usually considered canon since it's the default (labeled so in the Official Strategy Guide) and fits in the best with the plot.

Default doesn't always mean canon.
Also, I'm not sure it fits 'best' with the plot, but it and Tifa's do fit better than Barret and Yuffie's.

 

[Celes Chere]

I think Aerith's date fits best with the plot. I mean, she's been talking about this date the entire game (when she's living) , and it reveals that she knows Cloud is not himself. It's kind of important. One could argue though, that Tifa's also fits. If you see the two are interacting and believe they are (or have the potential) to be a couple, then her feelings towards Cloud are also important. However, that's more related to Tifa's feelings rather than Cloud's (since Cloud doesn't get a chance to answer her, though he shows interest in what she was going to say) so I'd say it makes more sense for Aerith to be the choice. It reveals more about Cloud, and it shows that more about Aerith than we knew.

I usually just say that date is canon. Though there is no official statement, I'll say whatevs until there is. xD

 

[looneymoon]

The Aeris date scene also gives the Zack/Cloud/Aeris plot some closure, so yeah I consider it fairly important. Tifa's date is sweet and sentimental, but doesn't really tell us anything we haven't already been told up until that point. Barret and Yuffie's are just silly.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

The Aeris date scene also gives the Zack/Cloud/Aeris plot some closure.

Does that mean Zack/Cloud/Aeris isn't canon?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I, too, feel like Aerith's date makes the most sense plot-wise. We already know that Tifa likes Cloud and that she does feel something is wrong with Cloud, so we don't really need her date to say this again. However, without Aerith's date, we would never know whether or not she'd realized she was originally interested in Cloud because he had some of the same mannerisms as Zack. This is why I feel that canon-wise, it fits the best, even though the game ends with Cloud and Tifa realizing their feelings for one another.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

The vers of the date scene I believe is canon is the one where Cloud and Aerith go on the date, they come back to the hotel, Aerith runs into Tifa and they decided to head into Cloud's room and have a threesome....oh wait, that was a fanfiction....still should be canon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That has nothing to do with it. It says on the passage that Cloud x Tifa are a optional couple. Please learn to read, and stop being in denial.

Have you read the page in question yet?:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

Because it says no such thing. It says that the date at the Gold Saucer is optional, but speaks of the Highwind scene matter of factly.

It's funny that you can understand the Terra part, but when you get to Cloud x Tifa you get sucked into the whirlpool of denial

Again, the page in question treats the scene with Terra matter of factly, as well, not as optional. Also, it's in the "Other love" section, not the romantic love section.

You refuse to acknowledge the official 20th Anniversary ultimania, so you bring up something from Case of Tifa that doesn't even make sense ? You're knowledge isn't that outstanding...

It was an interview with Nojima about Case of Tifa. Read what I said again.

If you actually read the Ultimania, SE says that the pairings are left up to interpretation.

Clearly you aren't paying attention, because I'm the first person who ever translated the damn page into English. So, yeah, I've kind of read it before.

And, no, the page doesn't say the shit was up to interpretation.

Your constant insults are extremely the opposite of endearing, by the way.

Cloud and Tifa are shown underneath the Highwind, but so is pictures of Cloud being with Aerith...

http://i49.tinypic.com/20go6k2.jpg

In the Ultimania. All the official relationship pairings are shown. Tidus x Yuna, Zidane x Garnet, Steiner x Beatrix, Squall x Rinoa. And pictures of both Tifa and Aerith.

Are you just counting up the pictures or are you reading the text under them?

Text under the picture of Cloud and Aerith: "VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior."

Establishes that the canon outcome of that scene is optional.

Text under the picture of Cloud and Tifa: "VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

Establishes -- along with the introduction to VII's story summary in the same book counting the high affection Highwind scene as one of four so-called "Impressive scenes" to represent the story; the script of the game published by Square in the FFVII Memorial Album using only the high affection version, even while using all four versions of the date scene; and along with a host of other quotes you've been pointed to from various Ultimanias and Nojima -- that the canon outcome of the scene is the high affection version.

I've shown the Ultimania. A picture of Cloud is shown with Tifa, but Aerith is also shown in "other love " To me other love seems like a choice, why would there be other love ?

The picture you're referring to wasn't in the section about "other love." That section was about non-romantic love.

The picture in question was in the romantic section, and -- as already pointed out numerous times -- the caption that goes along with that screenshot explicitly identified the outcome of the date as optional. This, again, was a distinction not made for the scene with Tifa and Cloud.

By the way, let me repeat this again since you ignored it the first time:

For that matter, pg. 232 -- mentioned in the page you linked -- says this: "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

That's what the main body of the story summary says. It's only off in the margin that we find the "Deviation" blurb that mentions players can see an alternate version.

Keeping in mind, of course, that mention of recruiting Vincent is found off in the margin, as is Vincent's meeting with Lucrecia in her cave. And I think we know what the canonicity of those two events are without having to debate it.

Also, as has been mentioned to you already, the passage I quoted above appeared on the same page as several other unchallengable official couples on a page that begins with a message stating that it's about romantic love. There's entries for Ingus & Sara, Cecil & Rosa, Celes & Locke, Cloud & Tifa, Squall & Rinoa, Dagger & Zidane, Beatrix & Steiner, and Yuna & Tidus -- all appearing with a description of or reference to the scene in which the love between the two was realized or professed.

We have two articles about it right here on TLS:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adven...e-debate-over/
http://thelifestream.net/final-fanta...he-one-i-love/

By the way, all of those scenes have a page for viewers to look at for more information about the scene, not just the Highwind scene.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Aerith's date tells us things about that which has come before. Tifa's date give us indications of that which is yet to come. Both work with the plot, IMO.

Of course, I hold all four dates happen in rapid succession, Barrrt's last.

 

[Vendel]

I figure it's that time again. The clerith quote of the day!

Living as a family & cloud wanted that? i dont think so & just because marlene and denzel are living with C & T it doesnt necessarily mean "family" unless it they both wanted that way..tifa wanted but cloud doesnt

they will continue to stay as CLOSE FRIENDS no more no less

its over move on
.................
a couple in HIDING is what im seeing

in the ending?? since when did they realize their feelings for one another..we dont even know if they are living together for that matter..probably come & go..say hi to the children & leave like he always do

the word "couple" is so out of the game context..really they might as well make another movie showing a wedding which its highly that aint gonna happen since its too much for everyone to handle..

Good times.

 

[Celes Chere]

@the post above:

Hurrdurr.

 

[Rinoa]

I didn't look deeply into it but wasn't Advent Children's whole theme "family"?

Maybe we have to look deeper...

INCEPTION

 

[Madame Mayor]

Yes, the theme is family, and how you should run away from it and never give a second thought while you're out in the flower fields.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

There is no official pairing. Clerith is canon. Cuz I said so. **loves that argument**

Also, lulz and civil debate in this thread. **chuckles** It's immersed in decade old tired sarcasm. It also smells of feet and Mako. Just saying.

As for the date, although I don't think there's a 'canon' date, Aerith's to me fills in her story better, and I like a well rounded story. I prefer Tifa's date because I'm a biased cloti, but narratively--Aerith's makes for a better story.

And, because it makes me giggle: Asking Tres if he's read any of this. **dies laughing**

And Drake, you know better, sweetie. I never coat my opinions in sarcasm to hide them. I coat them in sarcasm because I like the flavor.

 

[Ryushikaze]

'A couple in Hiding?' So they're a couple, then. Well, argument over.

I am amused how often I see arguments from incredulity or sheer willful ignorance. "It couldn't have happened, even though it did and the timeline says it did."

 

[Winter]

hurr hurr families mean the parents are together

HURR DURRR

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

hurr hurr families mean the parents are together

HURR DURRR

U FORGET THEY NEED TO BE HETEROSEXUAL, THE DAD MUST WORK, THE MOTHER MUST STAY AT HOME, THERE ARE 2.5 CHILDREN, AND A DOG.

 

[Ryushikaze]

hurr hurr families mean the parents are together

HURR DURRR

U FORGET THEY NEED TO BE HETEROSEXUAL, THE DAD MUST WORK, THE MOTHER MUST STAY AT HOME, THERE ARE 2.5 CHILDREN, AND A DOG.

::Kershrug:: Right or wrong, 'man, woman, child/ren' is narrative shorthand for 'loving couple.' So, nowadays is 'Man, man, Child/red' and 'Woman, Woman, Child/ren.' While it's entirely possible they CAN be platonic, you have to specify that it is, to counter the basic presumption.

When the man sees the woman as the mom and the woman sees the man as the dad, you're definitely not rebutting the presumption.

Also, does Shelke count as half a child?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

hurr hurr families mean the parents are together

HURR DURRR

One man and woman who have shared their romantic feelings for each other
+ 2 children (1 who views Tifa and Cloud as mom and dad)
_____________________________________
???? FAMILY

Quick, everyone, do the noodle dance!

 

[Splintered]

hurr hurr families mean the parents are together

HURR DURRR

Um, when you're talking about a story where the family is a large part of not one but two of the main characters, and AC/C deals with Cloud reconciling with all of his family members (Marlene when he takes her to 7th Heaven, when he rescues Denzel, and then when he tells Tifa that some of the burden has been lifted), then it's not assuming much that he's going to stay with them.

In fact, it's kind of outright stated. Like, when the creators say that there are always going to be issues with Cloud and Tifa, but Denzel and Marlene will help them work it out. Which suggests that they're going to be together as a family for awhile.

I dunno why people jump to the random conclusions that a couple will break apart when the story shows that they've come together. Excuse my off topic nerd/nostalgic ramblings, but I remember watching teh Digimon season 2 ending and everyone was making wild assumptions that Sora and Matt divoriced even though they were showed having kids together.

Or in Avatar:Legend of Korra when people were SHOCKED AND SURPRISED to figure out Korra was Aang and Katara's kid. Even though they became canon by the end of the show.

 

[Shadowfox]

Um, when you're talking about a story where the family is a large part of not one but two of the main characters, and AC/C deals with Cloud reconciling with all of his family members (Marlene when he takes her to 7th Heaven, when he rescues Denzel, and then when he tells Tifa that some of the burden has been lifted), then it's not assuming much that he's going to stay with them.

I've always considered his promise to Denzel that he'd return to them as a very clear way of telling us that he's not leaving them again. That and the tadaima/okaerinasai exchange when he wakes up in the church.

In fact, it's kind of outright stated. Like, when the creators say that there are always going to be issues with Cloud and Tifa, but Denzel and Marlene will help them work it out. Which suggests that they're going to be together as a family for awhile.

IIRC there was mention in the timelines and bio pages that he returns to and remains with Tifa and the children after the movie and DC.

Or in Avatar:Legend of Korra when people were SHOCKED AND SURPRISED to figure out Korra was Aang and Katara's kid. Even though they became canon by the end of the show.

Korra isn't Aang and Katara's kid. That would be the airbending master that she's going to train under.

Out of curiousity... the people expressing shock about Aang and Katara, were they Zutara shippers, by any chance?

 

[Splintered]

Korra isn't Aang and Katara's kid. That would be the airbending master that she's going to train under.

Oh wait, yeah your right. I meant the air master, sorry it's early.

Out of curiousity... the people expressing shock about Aang and Katara, were they Zutara shippers, by any chance?

I don't know. Probably since the majority of the fanbase are Zutara fans. But even if they were (Zutara fans), you'd have to be blind, deaf, and quite possibly stupid to randomly assume that Aang and Katara broke up.

There was some whining about Aang being twelve. Which would make total sense if it wasn't for, you know, a cartoon and these things makes perfect sense in the story given.

I've always considered his promise to Denzel that he'd return to them as a very clear way of telling us that he's not leaving them again. That and the tadaima/okaerinasai exchange when he wakes up in the church.

It's not that they are are being sly or coy about it. It's pretty blatantly obvious that Cloud recovered from his emodepression and is going back to his family.

To me, the idea that after watching the happy ending in AC/C that he would actually leave the family forever is on the same boat as believing Katara and Aang broke up/divorced after the end of Avatar. It makes little sense.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Korra isn't Aang and Katara's kid. That would be the airbending master that she's going to train under.

Out of curiousity... the people expressing shock about Aang and Katara, were they Zutara shippers, by any chance?

oh good. I thought that the show had already aired and that Korra was learning airbending from her long-lost brother or something and was thinking it was getting a little bit too complicated.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've always considered his promise to Denzel that he'd return to them as a very clear way of telling us that he's not leaving them again. That and the tadaima/okaerinasai exchange when he wakes up in the church.

But he didn't promise Aerith. Thus it does not count.

IIRC there was mention in the timelines and bio pages that he returns to and remains with Tifa and the children after the movie and DC.

Several times, yes, though magically, despite appearing several times on the profile on our front pages, none of our new arrivals seem to have seen them.

I don't know. Probably since the majority of the fanbase are Zutara fans. But even if they were (Zutara fans), you'd have to be blind, deaf, and quite possibly stupid to randomly assume that Aang and Katara broke up.

And yet many did, even after the series end.

There was some whining about Aang being twelve. Which would make total sense if it wasn't for, you know, a cartoon and these things makes perfect sense in the story given.

He's actually an excessively well preserved centegenarian and only looks twelve, and he'll look old'd up soon enough.

It's not that they are are being sly or coy about it. It's pretty blatantly obvious that Cloud recovered from his emodepression and is going back to his family.

To me, the idea that after watching the happy ending in AC/C that he would actually leave the family forever is on the same boat as believing Katara and Aang broke up/divorced after the end of Avatar. It makes little sense.

It doesn't have to make sense. It merely has to be in support of their desired conclusion.

 

[Zee]

I think I'm gonna keep posting Character Discussion topics until this one dies a fucking slow, painful death.

Poll: who's next? I was thinking the tragic victims of DoC. Or maybe Barret and Nanaki, 'cause they never get any love. Or maybe a general OGC versus Compilation topic.

ot: blah blah blah aerith cloud tifa blah blah blah