The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Shadowfox]

This entry in Dismantled is one of Aerith's monologues:

One thing it says that she and Zack weren't intimate... I think. It also says that she, now definitely, loves Cloud more than Zack and she knows Cloud is Cloud. I believe it also calls Zack "childish"

And yes it does say she cried when Zack left which made her mother hate Soldiers.

Thoughts?
(And don't try to tell me it's not canon )

What does it say about the Cloud is Cloud part? I don't think she could have known the real Cloud while she was alive because he hadn't moved very far from his false persona during that time.

 

[Vendel]

I would come to the Cloti conclusion. Precisely because the alternative scene says... nothing. It doesn't close the issue, it leaves it open. It doesn't tell us Cloud is rejecting Tifa, it tells us they are not communicating. It's vague at best.

What about the third version?

 

[Fighter]

What about the third version?

I would laugh my ass off... But we'll have another riot about no life Faith assholes and 6 year old shit.

 

[Vendel]

I would laugh my ass off... But we'll have another riot about no life Faith assholes and 6 year old shit.

Urge to screen cap rising.

 

[Splintered]

I concur...
So... maybe some of the information is outdated, but I don't think that makes it all not canon. No one ever questioned Dismantled before so... why question it now? Instead of questioning official material, maybe we should be questioning our own beliefs. (in a sense that maybe Cloti wasn't always intended, not that it isn't now) It's what I'm doing anyway.

I do think there was some evolution on the creator's part about how final fantasy evolved.

I do think that Zack/Aerith has an incredibly strong emotional bond, but it wasn't suppose to be that way in FFVII.

But if you look at it that way, we weren't even suppose to know what happened at the end of FFVII. The ending was deliberately vague so that people would wonder if humans ceased to exist as per the "all things that harm the planet would vanish." Then it deliberately made sure that we as players did not see any humans 500 years later.

But it would be silly to argue that this somehow dilutes the fact that people DID continue to exist.

I feel the same way about the highwind scene. That maybe at first, the highwind scene was suppose to remain ambiguous. But I feel that it can't remain the case, not because of Ultimania, but because Case of Tifa. CoT makes it pretty clear that something happened to the Cloud and Tifa relationship that made it so they they wanted to start their lives together. And I don't think that scene would have any kind of context within the apathetic scene, it just would make no sense.

I also feel like that's what happened to Zack/Aerith. Zack wasn't suppose to be a developed character and Z/A was more plot point than anything else. So when old sources say that Z/A wasn't intimate, it's not surprising.

But point is that the expanding of the FFVII universe saw it fit to expand Z/A. I don't see how anyone playing Crisis Core would feel that Aerith looked down on Zack in any way shape or form, or her feelings were not serious, or their relationship was not intimate. If it weren't for Zack, Aerith would never changed to the woman that she was (ie becoming less afraid of the sky) and I have strong doubts Zack would have been able to emotionally overcome some of his trauma (the way Aerith hugged Zack when he broke down makes me think she helped him out a lot during this time). tl;dr- It is impossible for the argument to be made that Aerith didn't really care for Zack and not make me think you fell asleep halfway through Crisis Core.

As for the Aerith thing, tbh I think a lot of people here try to downgrade the relationship between Cloud-Aerith. I think C/A did have a strong relationship and she obviously made a huge impact on him, but the relationship never turned romantic and we know this from a shit load of sources (ie, he didn't even know her or Tifa's feelings).

She was certainly significant to him, and who knows what would happen if she were alive, but she didn't. A lot of everything else is interpretation (the word that everyone in this thread hates). Do you think there was potential there or don't you.

*shrugs*

 

[null]

I would laugh my ass off... But we'll have another riot about no life Faith assholes and 6 year old shit.

*snorts coffee* bwahahahaha

Ah the mythical 3rd highwind scene... I guess it would have been halfway between sex and cold distance? Then it must have involved cold distant sex.

Hey, when LV and Vendel start flipping tables and hurling barstools at each other again, just remember this thread was all about haikus and Mass Effect when I went to bed. Let it be a lesson to all as to why this thread should never be on topic.

Also, why do we GAF about the original intent again?

 

[ForceStealer]

I can't believe you guys got this back on topic, that's amazing.

 

[null]

Hey, have a little faith man! (pun intended)

Actually it was just one guy. Actually it wasn't even a guy.

We used to do this on/offtopic sine wave all the time. It keeps the discussion from getting stale imho.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, but I think that's the furthest I've ever seen it descend into madnessSPARTA. I thought it was too far gone, lol.

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I am impressed.

 

[Splintered]

Yeah, but I think that's the furthest I've ever seen it descend into madnessSPARTA. I thought it was too far gone, lol.

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I am impressed.

Reported for spam. Jeeze, why can't you stay on topic?

 

[ForceStealer]

Urgh...I mean...TIFA LOVES ROLEPLAYING WITH MISS CLOUD!

(better?)

 

[Splintered]

Also, why do we GAF about the original intent again?

I have a hard time seeing why it wouldn't be.

This isn't about some early concept like Vincent wants to hump Tifa's leg, or there were old hints of SephirothxAerith, but this was the actual first game. If the point of the first game was, in fact, that Cloud was suppose to love Aerith, then that would be pretty damn important, and it would have not only an impact on the story, but what the players got out of the story.

It would also confirm that C/A weren't as "delusional" as some people say, but based their conclusions fairly solidly since it seemed that the author's felt the same way.

Of course, if it is retconned, it's retconned. But it still provides an interesting base.

But we also know that original game intent was that Cloud would end up with Tifa. Wasn't there an interview that said that said that they always envisioned to be together? Or something like that?

(better?)

everything is better with crossdressing!Cloud

 

[Ryushikaze]

BTW

That doesn't mean the information in it isn't valid. The ultimanias are not part of the Compilation either but the information in them is canon, right?

Was Mako saying 'Dismantled isn't canon anymore' or 'This quote isn't canon anymore' Because there's a difference.
There's ALSO a very big difference between authoritative 'this is how it is' statements and a character's thoughts.
That Aerith's thoughts contradict the 'this is how it is' statement once again points me to the 'She's in denial' conclusion. One that handily explained her inconsistencies in the original game, and does so in the era of the compilation.

Yeah I got that, I might be wrong anyway.


But wouldn't that technically mean that Square sorta... changed it or contradicted themselves? I mean it's not like it's impossible here, it wouldn't be the first time.

No. It means they contradicted Aerith or had her contradict herself. They aren't above having sympathetic characters lie to themselves.

See also: "I was in SOLDIER!"- Cloud.

Because there was never any question at all as to whether or not Dismantled was valid until I posted that, even when I brought it up just yesterday.

And technically Dismantled didn't contradict a later book, a later book contradicted Dismantled. Also where do we draw the line.. is it always, "new info over writes old" or is there a rule to this?

The general rule of thumb is that new overrides old. But even then, not all evidence is equal. Human dialogue is notoriously unreliable for a lot of things, especially when interpreted by just as unreliable humans.

okay here's my point

I find it very interesting that Dismantled has very little Cloti in it but focuses a lot on Cloud and Aerith. And don't say it doesn't because it does... so ... this makes me wonder if Cloti was really always the intended couple or if something else is going on.

Having Aerith go 'Omg Omg he's just like my first boyfriend, but he's totally his own person, and I DEFINITELY love him more, DEFINITELY' isn't 'focusing a lot on Cloud and Aerith. It's focusing on Aerith focusing on Cloud. And indicating she doesn't really parse Chocobutt yet.

Well I've been trying to prove that Aerith was really in love with Cloud for a while now but... I mean I guess I can see why there'd be doubts with Dismantled, but why all this CxA focus is what Ii want to know.

Again, a focus on Aerith focusing on Cloud isn't a CxA focus. Greater narrative context, it's something I've been harping on about for what feels like six years now.

Dude the Highwind scene isn't even mentioned in the monologues. That's like the big C/T moment. The one on the Lifestream event hardly has anything. Yet we have Cloud saying Aerith has impressive eyes, the most important thing is to unfreeze her smile and focusing on her a lot. It also talks about how great the C/A date was... there's a lot... A LOT for someone who's in love with another woman.

It would just be lots of moaning anyways.
Aerith has impressive eyes because they are innocent and optimistic in soul crushing midgar.
The most important thing for the entire team is to unfreeze Aerith's smile 'We have to do it, we owe it to her'
And again, why shouldn't they focus on Aerith? EVERYONE focus's on Aerith. Before and after death.
Could you provide a scan of where it talks about the C/A date?

That's probably my fault for doing crappy engrishy translations

And I want to point something out here.

I KNOW a lot of us disagree on how much Aerith loved Cloud and I don't want to get into that again. There's conflicting information and this proves it. Even after Crisis Core we have CoLW.

But my question still stands. This book was never mentioned as non canon before as far as I know. Feel free to prove me wrong... so why all this focus on CxA if CxT were always the intended couple? That's what I wanna discuss here.

Why kill Aerith if CxA was always the intended couple? That's what I want to know. It makes no fuckdamn narrative sense. Especially not when followed up by the hero rediscovering himself with a focus on his childhood emotions for the other woman in the triangle, followed again by the two confirming their feelings for each other.
Maybe, Just Maybe, there's a lot of people going on about Aerith because she's SPECIAL. Like the plot keeps hammering us home with. EVERYONE likes her right off the bat, even Cid.
The question shouldn't be 'Does Cloud think Aerith is special' because everyone does. The question is does he treat her as special in a different way than everyone else does, and that's not really the case.

Yeah but Cloud thinks about Aerith a lot BEFORE she dies. His first impression of her is that she has impressive eyes... whatever that means XD

It means what it says in the rest of the quote, that Aerith is still innocent and positive in Midgar, which Cloud no longer is. They're impressive because she's cheerful. In MIDGAR.

 

[Splintered]

Can someone give a timeline on when this (and other materials) were produced?

And who was Dismantled written by? Benny?

 

[null]

Yeah, but I think that's the furthest I've ever seen it descend into madnessSPARTA. I thought it was too far gone, lol.

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I am impressed.

You probably never visited the thread at ACF, but there weren't any mods watching for a long time. I think we went offtopic for over a hundred pages once. (Faith was even better.)

This isn't about some early concept like Vincent wants to hump Tifa's leg, or there were old hints of SephirothxAerith, but this was the actual first game. If the point of the first game was, in fact, that Cloud was suppose to love Aerith, then that would be pretty damn important, and it would have not only an impact on the story, but what the players got out of the story.

It would also confirm that C/A weren't as "delusional" as some people say, but based their conclusions fairly solidly since it seemed that the author's felt the same way.

Of course, if it is retconned, it's retconned. But it still provides an interesting base.

I don't think players of the first game would be stupid or delusional at all to see CxA. It's pretty easy to have a player experience that suggests it. There are scenes between them with romantic overtones. The funeral at the lake is a scene normally reserved for lovers. Same with the hand reach scene. Then you have the flirty optional dialogue, and odds are stacked toward having the date with Aerith.

At the same time, I do think one* has to be willfully ignorant of Tifa's connection with Cloud to think she plays a lesser romantic role or a third wheel.

*One being a non-casual player (like us folk) who pays attention to the love subplot and knows the issues.

But we also know that original game intent was that Cloud would end up with Tifa. Wasn't there an interview that said that said that they always envisioned to be together? Or something like that?

All I remember is that Nojima quote about AC saying he knew everyone would be where they belonged (and Cloud and Tifa specifically together).

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can someone give a timeline on when this (and other materials) were produced?

And who was Dismantled written by? Benny?

Dismantled- 1997, IIRC.
Memorial Album- Also 1997 Had an expanded rerelease in '99
UO- 2005
Reunion Files- 06
FF710th Anniversary- Late 07
Crisis Core Ultimania- 07
FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania- 08
Advent Children Complete and OTWTAS expanded, Including COLW- April 09
FF710th Anniversary revised- One day later. No, really.

 

[Tifabelle]

1997? Yeesh. Well.


Also, I think the conclusion of the original game is CloudxTifa. Like Ryu said, why kill her if they were supposed to be together. Why not kill Cloud as well if they were supposed to be together? But you have to look at the whole in order to find the conclusion, not just bits and pieces.

Not only that, but keep in mind that the player is supposed to experience the game through Cloud. So in order for the player to form a bond with Aerith (which is supposed to happen), Cloud has to form a certain bond with her as well. Otherwise her death wouldn't have any impact on the player.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Not only that, but keep in mind that the player is supposed to experience the game through Cloud.

This, in my opinion, is also why there's a lack of Z/A in the original game compared to what we get in CC. Cloud does eventually remember whatever Zack had told him, hence the end of ACC. However, in Cloud's story the love that his two friends shared and how deep it really went wasn't really as relevant during the FFVII events.

 

[Splintered]

This, in my opinion, is also why there's a lack of Z/A in the original game compared to what we get in CC. Cloud does eventually remember whatever Zack had told him, hence the end of ACC. However, in Cloud's story the love that his two friends shared and how deep it really went wasn't really as relevant during the FFVII events.

I actually think it was because Zack was such a late entry to FFVII. And that he was made as a minor character

In an interview with IGN, Yoshinori Kitase explained that when the original game had been created, "Zack was a rather minor character," though Nomura had created an art design and Nojima, one of Final Fantasy VII's scenario writers, had created a "basic concept of his [Zack's] story.

The whole story was developed over a period of time. So it would be natural to have it so no one really understood the relationship between Zack/Aerith. Even the writer of Dismantled. I certainly don't think that Aerith's use of pink was originally attributed to Zack.

But all stories develop, and Zack was taken down a certain route, along with his relationship with Aerith.

 

[Celes Chere]

trying to prove that Aerith was really in love with Cloud

GIVE UP.

His first impression of her is that she has impressive eyes...

...His first impression of Tifa is that he wants to protect her, promise to save her if she's ever in trouble, the desire to be worthy of her/impress her. Aerith doesn't have shit on Tifa. BD And Aerith's first impression of Cloud is: "Looks like Zack."

And, well, who cares if Cloti wasn't intended at first if that is the case. It sure as hell is intended now.

 

[ForceStealer]

What was intended at first was for the player to determine where Cloud's affections lie. You choose his pertinent responses and who's in your party - leading to who the date is with. That's why there are different versions of the Highwind scene.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

trying to prove that Aerith was really in love with Cloud

Gonna need something that overrides SE blatantly saying Aeris acts the way she does around Cloud cause of her ex. Several times, in several different ways. And all that shit in CC. Like the four year letter writing. And pink wearing. Etc.

Good luck, bb

Okay so is it possible maybe Cloti wasn't always the intended couple do you think?

Har Har. No.
Even if you remove Zack from the equation, there still no romantic intent from Cloud -à Aeris. He doesn’t want in her pants. Period. He loves Tifa. He wanted to be noticed by Tifa. He joined Soldier for Tifa. He has a promise with her ~under the stars~. He constantly singles her out and apologizes to her especially for failing (because he HATES more than anything, failing Tifa). He tells you he is happy to know of her feelings for him. Why? WTF? Where is Aeris here? He mourns for her?

Fucking hell, null, do not get me started on hand reaching and funerals.

I find it very interesting that Dismantled has very little Cloti in it but focuses a lot on Cloud and Aerith. And don't say it doesn't because it does... so ... this makes me wonder if Cloti was really always the intended couple or if something else is going on.

O.o
Are we talking about the original book back in the 90s or something? Or whenever?
Because others have that book and I have not heard of this “no Cloti” shit in there.
Page # please. I have no idea what you’re referring to.

Nevertheless it’s common sense and I’m with Mako on this. It’s not that Dismantled itself is invalid as a whole. But if info has been changed by new additions to the compilations or shit has been expanded on, then the overall canon follows the latest material. Because FFVII isn’t done. Stop viewing them in a vacuum. These additions are sequels and prequels and concern the same characters directly.

there was never any question at all as to whether or not Dismantled was valid until I posted that

LOL @ your wording. Nice try.

It’s not that you posted something that could be taken as C/A and suddenly Dismantled isn’t valid. It’s that THE SHIT ON ZACK/AERIS AND THEIR HISTORY WAS EXPANDED ON LATER. Dismantled does not have info on that.

As was said, it'd be the wrong source to go to for Z/A shit. Because their relationship is expanded on a decade later and isn't as important to the plot of FFVII and Cloud. You get hints of it in the original game as well (let's not pretend this denial shit is all BRAND NEW INFORMATIONZ!) but not the nuts and bolts. They will not be in Dismantled. How can they? The Compilation came a decade later.

Also, why do we GAF about the original intent again?

Because they’ve been owned front/left/center and their new thing is “we were right in 97 then SE changed things, but we were still right for that one disk/1 game”

Makes them feel better.

WHAT RYU SAID.

And again, why shouldn't they focus on Aerith? EVERYONE focus's on Aerith. Before and after death.

Aren't there whole sections of Tifa doing the same and waxing poetic? I distinctly remember this. We need Sheila or somefink

 

[Madame Mayor]

But all stories develop, and Zack was taken down a certain route, along with his relationship with Aerith.

Exactly. It could have been anything, but in the end, they wanted it to be an irreplaceable relationship. They also decided that how much Zack affected her feelings and actions towards Cloud would be revealed and hammer home that idea that she never really gets over him.

Also, C/A was totally intended at first... you know... back when Cloud had black hair and was in SOLDIER.

 

[Zee]

1997? Yeesh. Well.


Also, I think the conclusion of the original game is CloudxTifa. Like Ryu said, why kill her if they were supposed to be together. Why not kill Cloud as well if they were supposed to be together? But you have to look at the whole in order to find the conclusion, not just bits and pieces.

Not only that, but keep in mind that the player is supposed to experience the game through Cloud. So in order for the player to form a bond with Aerith (which is supposed to happen), Cloud has to form a certain bond with her as well. Otherwise her death wouldn't have any impact on the player.

C/A isn't really about whether or not they'd be together, but whether or not they loved each other. There's a difference.

That is unless you're talking about the earliest drafts of the game, when it was pretty obvious they were supposed to be a couple. But those are early concepts, and have no bearing on the outcome of the final product.

Second part I agree with, which is why it boggles me when Cloud's bond with Aeris is belittled. And really, a lot of his actions later on make no sense if you really think he didn't genuinely care about her.

 

[null]

What was intended at first was for the player to determine where Cloud's affections lie. You choose his pertinent responses and who's in your party - leading to who the date is with. That's why there are different versions of the Highwind scene.

I've always said that if they really intended this system to determine Cloud's feelings, they screwed the pooch because it's completely broken. You can make dialogue choices that aren't even on the subject of romance or directed at anyone, and it affects certain AV. And similar responses tend to have wildly different values for different characters. And you can game the system with stupid shit like the repeatable dialogue in the Shinra jail cell. And how are you supposed to know that having characters in your party affects their AV? You get something crazy like +10 for have Aerith in your party to find Dyne, and +3 for Tifa.

A system so wildly unpredictable doesn't place any real control in the player's hands.