The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[ForceStealer]

There's also a difference between genuinely caring luurrving though. Like I said many pages ago, I took issue with the concept that Cloud is searching for Aerith in Kingdom Hearts just because he's in love with her and not because he cares about her and wants her back.

null, I agree to a point, but remember that the system wasn't originally designed to be controlled. It was supposed to make things happen organically. If a player likes a character, chances are he/she'll put that character into the party, and say nice things to them. It is geared towards Aerith since that puts the most meaning into her death (so if you're nice to everyone you'll end up with her). But a player who does not like her will not end up with her.
My very first playthrough I went on the date with her, but every playthrough since (even before I know about the whole affection system), I've gone with Tifa. I was really shocked in my second playthrough when Tifa walked in, actually. I didn't know it could change

 

[null]

Fucking hell, null, do not get me started on hand reaching and funerals.

You know everything I type is put there to start an argument.

 

[Ryushikaze]

What was intended at first was for the player to determine where Cloud's affections lie. You choose his pertinent responses and who's in your party - leading to who the date is with. That's why there are different versions of the Highwind scene.

I disagree.
Because there are three endings to 10-2. Only one is the official ending. Same with FF7.
I think what was intended was for the player to THINK they had a choice, but for it to basically be a shell game to distract you in the beginning and encourage thinking about the plot and replaying the game.

Gonna need something that overrides SE blatantly saying Aeris acts the way she does around Cloud cause of her ex. Several times, in several different ways. And all that shit in CC. Like the four year letter writing. And pink wearing. Etc.

Like I said, the Denial explanation makes sense in 97, it makes sense now. It also makes a handy mirror to Cloud's story.

Because they’ve been owned front/left/center and their new thing is “we were right in 97 then SE changed things, but we were still right for that one disk/1 game”

Makes them feel better.

WHAT RYU SAID.

Even before the UO and subsequent games, a coherent argument exists Pro C/T. A stronger argument than 'Everyone lived/died at the end' even.
Leaving things vague doesn't mean there's no answer. It means, at most, we don't know the answer.
FF7 is a shell game plot designed to keep you, the viewer, off balance. It sets up and plays with audience expectations. It does it so well some people still don't know they've been played with, and I don't just mean the LTD. The game gives you a ton of nonsense information that makes no sense without the decoder ring that is the Lifestream sequence, and a lot of folks don't seem to get that there's even anything to decode.

 

[Ryushikaze]

null, I agree to a point, but remember that the system wasn't originally designed to be controlled. It was supposed to make things happen organically. If a player likes a character, chances are he/she'll put that character into the party, and say nice things to them. It is geared towards Aerith since that puts the most meaning into her death (so if you're nice to everyone you'll end up with her). But a player who does not like her will not end up with her.

If you're nice to everyone, it's still a crapshoot. If you get Tifa's +23 before dropping into the church, you pretty much run even if you balance options more or less between the two.

It 'Favors' Aerith but then you can accidentally remove the Favor just be agreeing with Tifa three times and not sucking at the train section.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

And really, a lot of his actions later on make no sense if you really think he didn't genuinely care about her.

Just because he'd rather bang Tifa than Aeris doesn't mean he didn't care about her. I don't know why you guys keep thinking that saying he didn't return her affections is a personal attack on Aeris.

 

[null]

null, I agree to a point, but remember that the system wasn't originally designed to be controlled. It was supposed to make things happen organically. If a player likes a character, chances are he/she'll put that character into the party, and say nice things to them. It is geared towards Aerith since that puts the most meaning into her death (so if you're nice to everyone you'll end up with her). But a player who does not like her will not end up with her.
My very first playthrough I went on the date with her, but every playthrough since (even before I know about the whole affection system), I've gone with Tifa. I was really shocked in my second playthrough when Tifa walked in, actually. I didn't know it could change

There's nothing natural about it if you be can completely mean to Aerith and still end up with her date, due to a ridiculous point advantage and nonsensical point distributions in dialogue choices. It actually works against player choice in that regard.

A true, fair and balanced, organic player-controlled romance system would be... drumroll please... actually you know what, if anyone doesn't know what game I'm about to discuss then GTFO and crawl out from under your fucking rock.

 

[Madame Mayor]

A true, fair and balanced, organic player-controlled romance system would be... drumroll please... actually you know what, if anyone doesn't know what game I'm about to discuss then GTFO and crawl out from under your fucking rock.

I think I know!

Spoiler

it's ME right?

 

[Tifabelle]

C/A isn't really about whether or not they'd be together, but whether or not they loved each other. There's a difference.

I'm not sure how she can have loved him. She didn't know him, and admits as much. Interested, cared for? Sure, but not love.

Second part I agree with, which is why it boggles me when Cloud's bond with Aeris is belittled. And really, a lot of his actions later on make no sense if you really think he didn't genuinely care about her.

I think most people agree that Cloud did care for Aerith. But saying he wasn't in love with her isn't the same as saying he didn't care about her at all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, OWD, Fighter, Null, Myself, Force, etc. Are not saying he didn't care about Aerith. Our argument is that he 'did not care for her in a way that is significantly different from the way that Tifa, Marlene, or other parties members would have cared for her.'

Believe it or not, I think Cloud would feel just as Shit if he thought Yuffie had died on his watch.

Balth, don't be silly. Of course Null means Doki Doki Mahou Shinpan.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

There's nothing natural about it if you be can completely mean to Aerith and still end up with her date,

Tifa's points will also increase if you're nice to Aeris too. I don't knwo if this means she's looking for a threesome

 

[null]

I think I know!

Spoiler

it's ME right?

 

[ForceStealer]

I kinda like the bit of mystery You're never QUITE sure who is gonna walk through the door. And a game like ME its YOU puttin' the moves on people. Cloud's too much of a pussy to actually do something himself, so it just depends which girl he's turned on enough to muster up the courage to come get him

Believe it or not, I think Cloud would feel just as Shit if he thought Yuffie had died on his watch.

EXACTLY.

Tifa's points will also increase if you're nice to Aeris too. I don't knwo if this means she's looking for a threesome

Of course it does. She wants them all in their prettiest dresses (Cloud included) and just have one huge romp.

 

[null]

Tifa's points will also increase if you're nice to Aeris too. I don't knwo if this means she's looking for a threesome

It means Aerith is a horrible unscrupulous immoral bitch because her AV decreases for that exact same choice. ("We gotta help Tifa!" -2)

Or it just makes me more right than Rush Limbaugh.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I kinda like the bit of mystery You're never QUITE sure who is gonna walk through the door. And a game like ME its YOU puttin' the moves on people. Cloud's too much of a pussy to actually do something himself, so it just depends which girl he's turned on enough to muster up the courage to come get him

...The phrasing of this is unintentionally hilarious.

Because it implies Barret is a girl.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I was thinking about him, but it still fits. Since the whole time he seems preoccupied with Cloud macking on Marlene. So maybe he turned her on

 

[Zee]

I'm not sure how she can have loved him. She didn't know him, and admits as much. Interested, cared for? Sure, but not love.



I think most people agree that Cloud did care for Aerith. But saying he wasn't in love with her isn't the same as saying he didn't care about her at all.

Doesn't really matter if you get it or not, she's confirmed in a canon source to be in love with him, so there's not really any debate on that.

Also sure, people like to say "WELL OF COURSE CLOUD CARED ABOUT AERIS" but often times whenever an instance is brought up where he shows her any sort of affection it's belittled or excused because he feels guilty/obligated/was really thinking about tifa.

I don't know why you guys keep thinking that saying he didn't return her affections is a personal attack on Aeris.

I think it's pretty clear he did, obv.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It means Aerith is a horrible unscrupulous immoral bitch because her AV decreases for that exact same choice. ("We gotta help Tifa!" -2)

Or it just makes me more right than Rush Limbaugh.

Not being Rush Limbaugh makes you more right than he is.
Rocks are correct more often. Rush actively tries to avoid the correct answer. It's more profitable.

 

[Tifabelle]

Also sure, people like to say "WELL OF COURSE CLOUD CARED ABOUT AERIS" but often times whenever an instance is brought up where he shows her any sort of affection it's belittled or excused because he feels guilty/obligated/was really thinking about tifa.

I think that's because some people like to claim that any thoughts or emotion for Aerith is equal to him being in love with her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Doesn't really matter if you get it or not, she's confirmed in a canon source to be in love with him, so there's not really any debate on that.

Actually, it's confirmed in a canon source that she loves the Cloud she thought she knew, but that's a giant can of worms.

Also sure, people like to say "WELL OF COURSE CLOUD CARED ABOUT AERIS" but often times whenever an instance is brought up where he shows her any sort of affection it's belittled or excused because he feels guilty/obligated/was really thinking about tifa.

Err, feeling guilty and obligated about someone IS a form of caring about them, actually.
The distinction is made, Zee, between 'caring' in a filial and in a romantic sense, and reminding folks of his guilt and responsibility is meant to remind everyone of the emotions the caring are grounded in, to point out it's a filial caring, like I care about my Brother.

I think it's pretty clear he did, obv.

Which does not exactly answer the point about not returning Aerith's affections being treated like a personal attack on her.

 

[null]

I think that's because some people like to claim that any thoughts or emotion for Aerith is equal to him being in love with her.

Can't argue with that.

 

[null]

Actually, it's confirmed in a canon source that she loves the Cloud she thought she knew, but that's a giant can of worms.


Err, feeling guilty and obligated about someone IS a form of caring about them, actually.
The distinction is made, Zee, between 'caring' in a filial and in a romantic sense, and reminding folks of his guilt and responsibility is meant to remind everyone of the emotions the caring are grounded in, to point out it's a filial caring, like I care about my Brother.

I maintain the funeral scene was shown with romantic overtones. There's tons of ways to convey platonic grief and that was one of the lousiest if that was the point. (On the other hand, this the same team responsible for the AV system, so who knows.)

On the other hand, about the only way it could get more romantic was with a goodbye kiss.

Also, Tifa loved Fake Cloud all the same, so what gives.

 

[Tifabelle]

I maintain the funeral scene was shown with romantic overtones. There's tons of ways to convey platonic grief and that was one of the lousiest if that was the point. (On the other hand, this the same team responsible for the AV system, so who knows.)

On the other hand, about the only way it could get more romantic was with a goodbye kiss.

Romantic and romanticized are two different things. The goodbye scene was romanticized.

Also, Tifa loved Fake Cloud all the same, so what gives.

Well she actually had feelings for him before he was Zack/Cloud. She knew as soon as she found him that things weren't right. Then the Lifestream sequence happened and you know that story...

 

[null]

Romantic and romanticized are two different things. The goodbye scene was romanticized.

Romanticized means "to make romantic"

Well she actually had feelings for him before he was Zack/Cloud. She knew as soon as she found him that things weren't right. Then the Lifestream sequence happened and you know that story...

Right, but in the Lifestream sequence she admits she didn't know him very well at that point.

And earlier she was pining for cocky/fake Cloud. Not like she made a distinction in her feelings for the two personas.

 

[Winter]

Other sources say that Aerith understood Cloud's character because she has a knack for sensing these things in people. So... if sources say she saw beyond his facade, and sources say she loved him... maybe we could put two and two together?

Anyways Quex, I'm interested in the quotes from Dismantled. I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) always felt a little alienated by the Compilation (wtf SE y u do this), and reading about the original game scenarios and such is interesting to me.

also, on the subject of Zack and Aerith's intimacy, could they have been talking about whether or not they fucked? I MEAN IT SEEMS RIDICULOUS but that's a common interpretation of "they weren't intimate" in English.

although to be honest, I felt like the whole "zack is a nice dude and loved aerith" thing was kinda retconned. when I first played the game/read old info Zack was always made out to be a ladies' man.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, he was. And though Crisis Core downplayed that, it was still there, with him hitting on Cissnei and the receptionist in Shinra HQ. Aeris was always obvious a little special though since he wrote home about her to his parents (even in FF7). People complain that their relationship in CC was too saccharine, but it may very well have been. In fact that could be WHY she was special among all the other girls. A perfectly innocent relationship that actually involved more legitimate caring than the others he'd just make passes at.