The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Alex Strife]

When Cloud meets Aeris during AC/C, she asks him "Why did you come here?" and...does Cloud answer "I want to see you" or "I miss you", or something similar, maybee...?! NO! He answers "I want to be forgiven", so once he is forgiven, good bye Aeris, Zack will take care of her, and that's all. Ya hear me?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

They also had Cloud call himself Ex-SOLDIER for a reason.

But technically, it wasn't Aerith who called Cloud her lover, just as it wasn't Sephiroth who ranted about Cloud and made Shinentai. It was woman and man respectively. The story is opaque to their identities, but contains clues to their identity. 'He was her lover/beloved/monkey polisher' is one of those clues.

Well.. now you just confused me.

And this is why true canon-Clerith believers exist. Because things like literary narrative confuse them.

And so...

Also, did you happen to notice while you were compiling these statistics that most people who will say "There's no official couple" prefered Clerith, or that most who aren't shippers but believe Clerith is canon are largely uninformed about the compilation and either don't care to or lack the ability to have a comprehensive understanding, while non-shippers who believe Cloti is canon are more likely to be individuals who are greatly informed about the compilation, the Japanese language, and/or know how to use logic effectively?

QED.

I don't know, call me stubborn but it just doesn't seem all that great of a difference. Whether one person calls a character directly one thing, and then writes a project where another character is still stating the same thing... And yeah it is from Aerith's perspective, ergo why we won't be hearing Cloud's version of the story.

Refer to the example I gave where what the character says and what the author believes can be vastly different things, and the author having a character say something doesn't necessarily mean the author believes it also.

Do you think that I hate cats?

 

[Alex Strife]

You don't necessarily hate cats, just because they are the devil's spawn in your book, of course.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

You don't necessarily hate cats, just because they are the devil's spawn in your book, of course.

... D:

I suppose there will always be interesting ways for people to explain what they want to believe.

 

[Isabella]

You don't necessarily hate cats, just because they are the devil's spawn in your book, of course.

Well, technically they aren't devil spawn in her book. They're devil spawn in the opinion of a character in her book.

It's quite rare for the narrator of a book to be the author, particularly in fiction. When assessing a story's narrative structure, you have to consider whether it's first, second or third person, whether it's limited or omniscient, whether it's objective or subjective.

CoL is clearly limited and subjective, as are all the OTWTAS novellas. It's not Nojima telling the story; it's a narrator whose knowledge is limited to what the focus character knows. In CoLW, the narrator only knows what "the woman" knows. Compare that to an out-of-universe statement from Nomura, someone who presumably knows the minds of all the characters.

But I still think it's too strong a word for what was shown in FFVII, though.

Agreed. But certainly Nojima is aware of the storm surrounding the previous use of koibito. Maybe it was just a wink and a nod.

 

[Alex Strife]

I had gotten wrong that point, then. So it is The guy who killed the cat's opinion, right? Still, this doesn't prove you hate cats.


Let's say I write a book, and in this book, my country gets in a war against the USA. Does this mean I hate the USA? Hell no! It's just fiction!


As for:

"I suppose there will always be interesting ways for people to explain what they want to believe."

What is it that I believe? I'm really curious, now. Oh, and by the way, I do take it as an offense.

 

[Dashell]

Once upon a time, Tom was walking along the street. A little stray kitty walked up to Tom and meowed.

Aww what a cute story

Tom pulled out a gun and shot the kitty in the face, because to Tom, all kitties were spawn of the devil. The End.

....

WHAT? How could you build up my interest like that only to kill the poor cat :cries:

...seriously? That's just ignorant. Do you just pretend all the evidence pointing toward Cloti doesn't exist or something? I kinda thought you were smarter than that. Or are you just being facetious? D:

Clerith's have their own set of evidence that they believe in. They don't like presenting it because... well they get called names like ignorant =P. However....

Clerith is canon are largely uninformed about the compilation and either don't care to or lack the ability to have a comprehensive understanding, while non-shippers who believe Cloti is canon are more likely to be individuals who are greatly informed about the compilation, the Japanese language, and/or know how to use logic effectively?

This I'll give you. This is something I've seen. A lot of Clerith evidence is just speculation and guessing or taking something WAY out of proportion. I can see them believing that Clerith is the true couple of FFVII and I'll even give them Kingdom Hearts, but beyond that... there isn't much. It's one of the reasons they get slammed on so much. They do things like question Normura and... what he says should be cannon above all else. And I plan to point that out to them when the Northern Crater opens up again.

They're good people, they're nice and I enjoy their company, but they are, as you said, misinformed and if any Cleriths at CxA are reading this, I'm sorry if you take offense to this, but I will present my story when NC opens up.

Do you think that I hate cats?

Yes, but the question isn't, "Do you think Nojima loves Cloud?" it's "Do you think Aerith loves Cloud?" So it's... not a good example I'm afraid... in fact... I don't even understand what your post had to do with someone saying Aerith loved Cloud.

I think the point you WANT to make is that just because Aerith's feelings is that Cloud is her koibito, it doesn't mean Cloud feels the same way.

Because you touch yourself at night.

Dammit Channy... I liked Vendel. see what you did?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Yes, but the question isn't, "Do you think Nomura loves Cloud?" it's "Do you think Aerith loves Cloud?" So it's... not a good example I'm afraid... in fact... I don't even understand what your post had to do with someone saying Aerith loved Cloud.

I think the question would be closer to "Do you think Nojima feels Aerith and Cloud are a couple?"

 

[Dashell]

Whoops, I put in the wrong name.

I think the question would be closer to "Do you think Nojima feels Aerith and Cloud are a couple?"

Oh.. well that's much more clear than killing cats... wait... Nomura was the one who said Tifa was Cloud's koibito right?... I think Nomura is Cloti and Nojima is Clerith

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Oh.. well that's much more clear than killing cats... wait... Nomura was the one who said Tifa was Cloud's koibito right?... I think Nomura is Cloti and Nojima is Clerith

Technically, Nojima wanted to make the 20-minute film (original AC) with Cloud and Tifa living as a couple with the kids passing on some message and wanted to make KH2 Tifa to clearly be Cloud's light.

 

[Dashell]

So once again


I am wrong.
I do remember that AC was supposed to be like 20 minutes though.

 

[Isabella]

The point is that some Cleriths want to believe the use of koibito in CoL is a definitive statement from Nojima that they're lovers. That shows an ignorance of how narration works.

They're good people, they're nice and I enjoy their company, but they are, as you said, misinformed

And that's the point. I'm sure most of them are very nice people, and I wish them well. But the point of debate isn't to pat everyone on the back. I'm not going to sit still and let someone tell me the Earth is flat just because they're a nice person.

 

[Channy]

Dammit Channy... I liked Vendel. see what you did?

Sorry, I'm nothing but a dirty Clerith with urges I can't control. I just can't help myself.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Sorry, I'm nothing but a dirty Clerith with urges I can't control. I just can't help myself.

Wait, I thought that sort of thing only happened with dirty Clotis.

 

[Strangelove]

Have people retracted all the claims about what koi[thespaceisalie]bito meant now, or is there a loophole now it's being applied to Aerith?

Know I've asked this before, but I didn't get an answer

So.... she does live on inside Cloud spiritually? But it doesn't mention anyone else?

If you take it as the regular "lives on within..." meaning, I don't really think it's difficult to understand. Teal deers studying Japanese only appear when people try to take it as "actually living inside Cloud's mind" (which I'm surprised you haven't seen, really)

 

[Channy]

Wait, I thought that sort of thing only happened with dirty Clotis.

You'd be surprised.

Have people retracted all the claims about what koi[thespaceisalie]bito meant now, or is there a loophole now it's being applied to Aerith?

I'd like to answer that but I don't know/understand/care what the whole deal about Koibito is/was/hasbeen/will be.

If you take it as the regular "lives on within..." meaning, I don't really think it's difficult to understand. Teal deers studying Japanese only appear when people try to take it as "actually living inside Cloud's mind" (which I'm surprised you haven't seen, really)

Well there was just an argument somewhere that Aerith lives on in the memories of everyone... but the quote you supplied only mentions Cloud. So speshul maybeh?

 

[Strangelove]

I think the other one (about everyone) is from somewhere else, but I don't know where it is It could possibly be one of those things that people mistook and it just got spread.

But the quote only mentions Cloud as an example, rather than an exception.

I'd like to answer that but I don't know/understand/care what the whole deal about Koibito is/was/hasbeen/will be.

That's funny, I care more about that than who Cloud's pixels get together with

 

[Frostwave]

Well there was just an argument somewhere that Aerith lives on in the memories of everyone... but the quote you supplied only mentions Cloud. So speshul maybeh?

Was it in this thread? Don't 'member?

I think I know which quote they were referencing.

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet.

Mebbe?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd like to answer that but I don't know/understand/care what the whole deal about Koibito is/was/hasbeen/will be.

Desfail has a whole spread on the subject.

Well there was just an argument somewhere that Aerith lives on in the memories of everyone... but the quote you supplied only mentions Cloud. So speshul maybeh?

It begins talking about Cloud seeing her because the dead live on in the living.

As for 'lives on in everyone', It might be an extrapolation based on the 'Lives on in the hearts of her friends' line, and that fact that several people including Kadaj, and the apparition at the end of FF7, etc.

 

[Channy]

I think the other one (about everyone) is from somewhere else, but I don't know where it is It could possibly be one of those things that people mistook and it just got spread.

But the quote only mentions Cloud as an example, rather than an exception.

Maybeh. I'm not sure. I just recently talked about it with someone too. ><

That's funny, I care more about that than who Cloud's pixels get together with

I still don't get it other than something like... Clerith's mentioned Tifa being a koibito but as a friend but then it applies to Aerith so now it doesn't... wat.

And what of the space?

Also frosty I don't think thats it D;

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I still don't get it other than something like... Clerith's mentioned Tifa being a koibito but as a friend but then it applies to Aerith so now it doesn't... wat.

And what of the space?

Also frosty I don't think thats it D;

Koi Bito means a person who loves, this is proven by the kanji and the superior knowledge of Japanese natives, who say that Westerners cannot translate worth shit.

 

[Channy]

Well is there a difference between koibito and koi_____________________bito like people keep bringing up?

 

[Dashell]

I'm telling ya it means fish person

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well is there a difference between koibito and koi_____________________bito like people keep bringing up?

Yes. The former is a word, the latter a crappy justification for not recognizing the meaning of the actual word, and has been declared two words, having at least three 'only' definitions, such as 'only one who loves' 'only a nice person' etc.

But the latter seems to have mysteriously vanished from the pink camp after COLW, despite the pink camp being the originators and often fervent supporters of Koi







Bito.

They also treat it like the silver bullet of the entire thing, rather than simply another round in the minigun of evidence I like to fire off every so often.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm telling ya it means fish person

It actually could if you wrote it the right way (&#39881;&#20154

Was it in this thread? Don't 'member?

I think I know which quote they were referencing.

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet.

Mebbe?

I'm satisfied that it exists, then (10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile, AC section) Maybe there's another one, but I'm happy that it isn't that far out.

I still don't get it other than something like... Clerith's mentioned Tifa being a koibito but as a friend but then it applies to Aerith so now it doesn't... wat.

And what of the space?

For years, 'koi bito' (that's right, two words) could have multiple meanings. If it was written in kanji (like in the RF quote) it means a suitor or 'someone who loves [one-sided]' (I think it later evolved into 'someone who is loved'), and only when written in kana would it possibly mean 'lover'. Despite the fact that most Japanese written used it 'incorrectly' and only one dictionary no one could find supposedly gave the true definition and a lot of these explanations just being weird. I think you can still find these essays saying all this on one of those Clerith sites.

But apparently now, despite being written exactly the same as the Tifa quote, it seems to be meaning what C/T fans say.

EDIT;
http://www.geocities.com/anime_art2003/Koibito.html (skip to about half way, or just look below)
http://www.clerith.com/Koibito.htm

Koi bito (that's right, it is actually two words): Koi= romantic love; bito= person (slang for hito). Koibito, written in katakana or hiragana can have various definitions, such as "sweetheart", "lover", or "boyfriend/girlfriend" (its meaning can be confusing when written this way). However, koi bito written in kanji (as it is in Reunion Files), is simply "the person who loves" and offers no answers on whether or not this person's feelings are returned. In other words, Tifa embodies the traits of "a person who loves", and nothing more. It says nothing about any type of reciprocated feelings from anyone. Resha also stated that, if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship, Tifa would more than likely be called aikoi or aikou.

When kanji is used, the meaning is "the one who does the loving", but it is unknown if that person's love is returned.

If it's written in kanji then you'll really get koi bito as 'the one who loves'/ or the love is one sided because that's how we actually use it."

While koi bito in kanji has been known to be used for the word "sweetheart", it is extremely rare. Native Japanese inhabitants just do not use koi bito written in kanji for the word "sweetheart", only non-Japanese and/or die-hard anime/manga fans. Koi bito= lover, as in "someone who loves", not "_____'s lover". It isn't used to imply reciprocated feelings (unless, perhaps, it is written in either katakana or hiragana).

In other words, regardless of what your generic English<--->Japanese dictionary says, the true definition of koi bito is not "sweetheart". So, all of you rejects running around pasting images from your dictionaries can stop now-- all you are doing is displaying your ignorance to everyone. Resha, Saicho, Kenji, and Shadow Spirit have already politely asked that you stop mangling a language you don't understand. I think it is time that you do so and stop basing all of you so-called "proof" on one word that is merely there as a descriptive. Frankly, it is rather pathetic. Is all you have really that one word???

That's 5 references (at least, I didn't bother reading the whole lot) which would negate the Lifestream White 'koibito' meaning anything like what people seem to be claiming it means now.

That 'aikoi/aikou' stuff is another thing that's strange. I've never heard it and have looked into it but couldn't find anything, the closest I found was slang for abortions or something.