The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Goodbye Charlie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Hammer time. Magic, H. Pure magic. I wish I had more to add, but I think in this whole LTD debate I've probably said enough already.

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Did someone say Nero???

Magic Hammer Cloud had me in tears, no joke. Too good, too good.

 

[juniper]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Someone(a Clerith, obviously)told me that because Cloud is depressed in AC, it's about Aerith and it's just another way of SE showing how he feels about her.

But wasn't Cloud depressed because he had Geostigma? That's what I thought. How does being depressed mean you're in love with someone, anyway?

 

[lunar_crimson]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

She's only a part of the reason why he's withdrawn from Tifa, his family, etc. And seriously, AC's not out to show you that love exist beyond death, and yady yady yah. It's about Cloud learning to forgive himself, moving on, etc. Cleriths are always exaggerating.

Cloud was depressed because of Aerith, Zack, his geostigma, his past failures. He's depressed because he does not feel worthy of the happiness he receives from living with Tifa and raising children with her. And because he lacks the confidence to protect his family and friends and then he's probably afraid he'd be a burden to them.

I get depressed over a lot of people, but there are very few people I love.

 

[juniper]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Thanks. I was curious about this, too.

In AC, Cloud's line "I think... I want to be forgiven. Mm. More than anything."

Was that what the Japanese version said? I thought it was "I think... I want to be forgiven. Yeah, I want to be forgiven."

But I could understand that, at this point in his life, he needs forgiveness, or he can't move on and live.

 

[Vorona]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=juniper link=topic=53.msg9065#msg9065 date=1232176267]In AC, Cloud's line "I think... I want to be forgiven. Mm. More than anything."[/quote]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think the english line is romantic, but really, what's romantic about it? Cloud says he wants forgiveness "more than anything". Surely if Aerith were his true love, he'd of said he wanted to be with her "more than anything"? If the scene was meant to portray romance, I'd think there would be some kind of epic reunion, or even an "Omg! Aerith?" but yet there isn't. The scene's about guilt, and the last time I checked, guilt wasn't romantic.

If I saw one my my friends, or anyone for that matter, stabbed to death before my eyes, and not being able to do something, I think i'd be suffering from severe guilt too. But that wouldn't mean I was secretly deeply in love with them.

[quote author=Lapis Lazuli link=topic=53.msg9046#msg9046 date=1232173954]
AC's not out to show you that love exist beyond death, and yady yady yah. It's about Cloud learning to forgive himself, moving on, etc. Cleriths are always exaggerating.
[/quote]

Exactly, and I think the ending does a good job of showing that. Cloud has got over his guilt, and can now go back to Tifa, his family and friends, whilst Aerith and Zack have done their part and go back to the lifestream together. Which is I why I think that the claim of Cloud going to reunite with Aerith in the flowerfields at the credits is really counterproductive and ruins the entire message of the film :-\

 

[Frostwave]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Yeah, and it doesn't say anything about meetings with Aerith's spirit body in a flowerfield in Cloud's UP, either.

His timeline says he "returns to Tifa and the children". I thought they made it pretty clear that he and Tifa's relationship problem is solved now that Cloud's stopped being a douche.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

His timeline says he "returns to Tifa and the children". I thought they made it pretty clear that he and Tifa's relationship problem is solved now that Cloud's stopped being a douche.

I wonder why they keep saying "Tifa and the children" all the time, singling them out of the rest of the happy "AVALANCHE family of friends".

As for Cloud's so-called depression over Aeris, AC/ultimanias/Reunion Files state exactly why he leaves. None of it has anything to do with Aeris. They outright state it's Geostigma and fear of failure. Leaves little room for Cleris speculation.

Hammer!Cloud = pure win

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I wonder why they keep saying "Tifa and the children" all the time, singling them out of the rest of the happy "AVALANCHE family of friends".

-shrugs- Some people seem to think that this is just a statement of a fact, that means nothing romantic or finalizing.

-cough-

 

[Shadowfox]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Leanan Sidhe link=topic=53.msg9170#msg9170 date=1232244800]
Yeah, and it doesn't say anything about meetings with Aerith's spirit body in a flowerfield in Cloud's UP, either. [/quote]

Yeah, but we all know that reality and facts are poor substitutes for the wishful fantasies of rabid fandom.

[quote author=Leanan Sidhe link=topic=53.msg9170#msg9170 date=1232244800]
His timeline says he "returns to Tifa and the children". I thought they made it pretty clear that he and Tifa's relationship problem is solved now that Cloud's stopped being a douche.
[/quote]

I think that's part of the reason why some Clerises are always so insistent in using that motherly feelings thing that Tifa has in CoT as ammo. By focussing entirely on that motherly aspect, they seek to change the family dynamic between Cloud and Tifa into something less threatening to their ship. They cling to it because they think it allows them to change the romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa, the father and mother of the family, into something chaste and normally lacking in romance: the mother-son relationship.

Essentially, they cannot refute the pointblank statement that Cloud returns to Tifa and the children, so they now try and change what he returns to: He's not going back to a family where he is a romantic partner to the other adult. Instead, he's now returning to a family where he is like a child to the one adult.

 

[lunar_crimson]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

That's too bad though, because everyone knows Tifa has more than motherly feelings for Cloud and nowhere is it shown that Cloud sees Tifa as a mother. But we do see Cloud calling Aerith mom nevertheless.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

More than that, we never see SE stating point blank that Cloud and Aerith had romantic feelings for each other.
They made such statements for Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith, though.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

ACC should have added scenes of Cloud actually acting like a kid. Being mardy and throwing a tantrum, while Tifa has to shout at him like a good mum.

I think it should be right after the HD chocobo stable scene.

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg9181#msg9181 date=1232255299]
-shrugs- Some people seem to think that this is just a statement of a fact, that means nothing romantic or finalizing.
[/quote]
"I want to be forgiven" is a statement of fact, means nothing romantic or anything.

He didn't even look all that happy to be there, anyway! All looking down miserable, with his back to her. Not even trying to look at her most of the time.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

He didn't even look all that happy to be there, anyway! All looking down miserable, with his back to her. Not even trying to look at her most of the time.

Well, their idea on this scene is that Aerith's back is to Cloud because he feels guilty, and is not able to face her. At the end of the movie his guilt is lifted, and he is finally able to face Aerith, and show his undying wuv. (Even though Zack was there the whole time, apparently Aerith's eyes show us that Cloud is speaking only to Aerith. Even when the RF states otherwise)

Btw, I have a question. Over at the NC *someone* said that this scan:

http://unlimitedgamer.net/image.php?id=coverage/ff7ac/scans/ps806_10_aug_2005.jpg

Says that Tifa and Cloud are more than friends, but less than lovers. I didn't get a statement on what is said about Cloud and Aerith. I can't read Japanese worth a damn , so does anyone know what this really says?

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I don't recognize what that scan is from. Is it from official material or a magazine? If it's from a mag, it doesn't matter what it says.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Well, don't forget the relationship chart published by SE in Playstation magazine in 2004:

Haha, I guess it IS from a Magazine. From 2004, even. I didn't notice that part of her post, just saw the scan. xD

I'd still like to know what it says out of curiosity, though.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg9225#msg9225 date=1232303203]He didn't even look all that happy to be there, anyway! All looking down miserable, with his back to her. Not even trying to look at her most of the time.
[/quote]

The funny thing is, Cleriths love to compare Cloud/Aerith to Vincent/Lucrecia, saying that their stories are incredibly similar.
http://clerith.com/Compare%20CA%20to%20VL.htm

When if you really compare those pairings, things turns out to be not so good for Cleriths.
Take the "first meeting" scenes for comparsion, Vincent is trying to take Lucrecia into his arms, calls her name, looks like he's about to cry when she disaprears;
On the other hand, Cloud is standing back-to-back with Aerith, not trying to look at her or touch her, and when she disappears he looks pensive.

Also, Cleriths always bring into debates this made up statement, that Cloud's guilt was the barrier between him and Aerith.

edit;

I don't recognize what that scan is from. Is it from official material or a magazine? If it's from a mag, it doesn't matter what it says.

*recalls "meeting her (Aerith) is my (Cloud's) dream" magazine quote, which the Pinkers like to use as a proof*

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Why wait until his guilt was at its height (assuming AC is written at the lowest point) to appear? Would that block her more? Why not appear as soon as possible, while he wasn't resigned to death? Like 2/1 and half years ago, so Cloud could have gotten on with his life? What was she doing all that time?

And Cloud's guilt was a barrier? Is that why Aerith didn't appear? Cloud should feel guilty, for all those people who died of Geostigma because he was moping around.

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg9239#msg9239 date=1232311191]Btw, I have a question. Over at the NC *someone* said that this scan:

http://unlimitedgamer.net/image.php?id=coverage/ff7ac/scans/ps806_10_aug_2005.jpg

Says that Tifa and Cloud are more than friends, but less than lovers. I didn't get a statement on what is said about Cloud and Aerith. I can't read Japanese worth a damn , so does anyone know what this really says?
[/quote]
I remember that scan. I translated it

It's from a magazine (judging from the more refined layout, Dorimaga/Gamaga or Dengeki), and was definitely pre-release.

Cloud and Tifa are 'more than friends, less than koibito?'. So no one knows that that means. Less than 'someone who loves but isn't loved back'?

Aerith > Cloud is 'likes?', which can be used in the sense of 'I like like you' (was there a pink rant on here about what 'suki' really means?)

Cloud > Aerith is 'cannot forget (sense of guilt?)'.

*recalls "meeting her (Aerith) is my (Cloud's) dream" magazine quote, which the Pinkers like to use as a proof*

I recall people actually thinking that was an actual line of dialogue from the film, and mourning its loss.

That would have sounded terrible as dialogue. Because it was half in English even in Japanese. "Kanojo to no saikai, sore ga MY DREAM". As in 'my dream', writting in English, in a Japanese sentence.

There are some 'mai/my...' phrases that get used commonly, but I don't think 'dream' is one of them. And not written in English like that.

Also, it didn't have quote makes like all the other dialogue

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

omg old scan is ooooold. That was pre-release magazine buzz for AC, I believe. In fact, looking at the scab, you can tell that this is probably before we knew that Rufus was the wheelchair man.

I do remember reading at AC.net that the translating between Cloud and Tifa is "more than friends, less than lovers" or something of the sort. I don't really remember any of what the other arrows were supposed to say.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I'm amused that certain people believe what copy editors/writers write carries any official weight. I used to do that kind of work myself. See all those question marks? That's how you cover your ass, because you don't know any more about the story than anyone else does, except what comes with the marketing materials and that usually isn't much. All you know is you've got all these pics the studio released and your bosses want to publish, and you gotta give the reader some verbage to go along with them.

Also, LOL at the word for "lovers" being KOIBITO, that word that means "one-sided love" to all the hip, with-it Japanese kiddies.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I'm sure, if you looked back at other magazine articles for games that have been released, you'd find a lot of stuff which doesn't fit with the final game.

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg9251#msg9251 date=1232314065]
omg old scan is ooooold. That was pre-release magazine buzz for AC, I believe. In fact, looking at the scab, you can tell that this is probably before we knew that Rufus was the wheelchair man.
[/quote]
They still call him 'man in the white hood'.

Doesn't know if Cid, Red XIII, Barret or Vincent are working with Cloud or not. Doesn't know if Kadaj's gang oppose the Turks. Doesn't know if Marlene is living with Tifa.

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Furthermore, Nomura doesn't say that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of everyone. He said that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. Aerith's consciousness, which is also her spirit, is essentially living on inside of Cloud, which is why Cloud is able to see her.

It's interesting that Cloud's body was Mako enhanced by Hojo, since Mako is what makes up the Lifestream. It's almost as if the Lifestream itself is running through Cloud's body. That would enable Aerith's spirit to live on inside of Cloud, almost as if it were in the Lifestream. To me, that would make quite a strong and special bond.

Furthermore, Nojima states on page 58 of the Reunion Files that:

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she [Aerith] still seems to be by his [Cloud's] side - in spirit at least."

Nojima says that he wanted to create an atmosphere where Aerith seemed to be by Cloud's side in spirit. He specifies that Aerith would be by Cloud's side, not anyone else. On that same page of RF, Aerith's voice actor also says this:

"She's [Aerith's] presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film."

Once again, it's stated that Cloud is able to hear Aerith - not anyone else - and it's also said that Aerith's spirit is still with Cloud - not with anyone else.

Do you guys mind answering this? I mean, is it true that Aerith lives inside of Cloud? This is confusing to me.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Eh, debate-by-proxy.

What do you make of it, BBM? Spot any inconsistencies? Any unsupported speculation?

And another thing ... have you seen this concept used in other works of fiction? The Lion King, for example. We're told that Mufasa lives on in Simba. Should we draw a romantic conclusion from that?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

'Consciousness' thing:

http://forums.thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/love-triangle-discussion/msg5007/?topicseen#msg5007

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she [Aerith] still seems to be by his [Cloud's] side - in spirit at least."

That 'in spirit' thing was added to the English translation. It's not in the Japanese line.

??????????????????????????????

"She's [Aerith's] presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film."

Are we taking voice actor's words on it? Because this is Maaya Sakamoto talking. Didn't people have a problem with Sakurai's statements being used?

The Japanese line doesn't state that her 'spirit is still with him'. The only thing mentioned being inside Cloud is an image of Aerith ('as he remembers her' in English). It's Aerith [in the film?], as the image of her inside Cloud, and also Aerith's spirit actually talking to him.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????……

There's a very simple mistake in that last line talking about the Sakamoto quote, but it's so simple I don't think it needs pointing out


Also, while looking at this:

When talking about Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death, it mentions Cloud's 'feelings', which can only be solved by Aerith. This is the same word as those 'undying feelings' that have been brought up before.

Coincidence?

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

When talking about Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death, it mentions Cloud's 'feelings', which can only be solved by Aerith. This is the same word as those 'undying feelings' that have been brought up before.

Coincidence?

"Undying feelings" = Guilt?... Don't tell Cleriths! :o