The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Raquelborn]

I've been missing calls from my mom since two years ago but that doesn't mean I haven't spoken to her

And if he's been missing her calls for that long and living at the church, how was he suddenly able to just go drop off Denzel at Seventh Heaven and then live there and be a family?

Tl;dr LRN 2 READ CASE OF TIFA PLZ

...And it looks like everyone got the joke

I'm very tired, ill and I'm not processing information very well at the moment. I apologise.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

That reminds me, I rewatched ACC yesterday and noted that Cloud has been missing calls from 7th Heaven since 5/5 until 29/6. That's nearly 2 months (55 days) of ignoring Tifa's calls.

Since it sounds like he only starts ignoring her calls once he leaves that means he's probably been living in Aerith's church for nearly 2 months prior to AC as opposed to just two weeks, as was previously speculated.

Nevermind that Cloud can actually give Tifa a flower.

I find that all a bit fluffy. He stops in the field in Reminiscence and therefore he probably picked them in there, and in AC we see Aerith in the same field so basically he picked them in memory of Aerith. It's just cherishing her memory, I don't see the big hoo-hah some people like to make about it.

Someone prove to me that Cloud picked the damn flowers. Please. They're on his desk, sure. Somehow I find it far more likely that it was Denzel or Marlene or hell Tifa that picked them and put them in front of the group picture. Cloud DOES take them for rides. **headdesk**

Also, in ACC Tifa even says "Cloud, you hardly ever call." Not "You hardly ever answer." I thought it was just a Call Log, not a Missed Call Log. Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought In CoD he states that he searched through the last incoming calls, nothing about "missed calls". Doesn't mean Cloud didn't answer, just means the last calls came from Seventh.

My phone lists all of my calls, so...

 

[Dashell]

It does say "missed calls" but yeah it doesn't mean he never answers. It could be a missed called log. My phone has one.

Also:

Somehoe I find it far more likely that it was Denzel or Marlene or hell Tifa that picked them and put them in front of the group picture.

Oh... Areti proof

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's also a damn good point, Fairheartstrife. They were the incoming calls. Not the missed calls in "Case of Denzel."

 

[Dashell]

I just... posted proof that they were missed calls...
Let's try again

It says MISS so he did in fact MISS those calls... BUT that doesn't mean he never answers. They're spaced apart pretty far so he probably has a missed call log. My phone has one... I say again

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I just... posted proof that they were missed calls...
Let's try again

It says MISS so he did in fact MISS those calls... BUT that doesn't mean he never answers. They're spaced apart pretty far so he probably has a missed call log. My phone has one... I say again

Yeah the spacing on those says that he may have missed an odd call now and again, but nothing like Tifa hunting him down. Odds are she's the only one that really calls him. The others have his number, but really only start calling him further into ACC.

Thanks for posting that.

 

[Isabella]

It jumps from 6/6 to 6/14. Either Tifa doesn't call much or he answers sometimes.

 

[Dashell]

So yeah the calls are spaced far apart so he didn't miss much...

SERIOUSLY ANYONE ELSE WANNA SAY IT? 4 people isn't enough.

 

[Splintered]

It does say "missed calls" but yeah it doesn't mean he never answers. Just that he missed Tifa's calls.

Also:

Oh... Areti proof

It only makes sense he missed her calls characterwise. Wasn't he in a huge funk during that time?

The whole point was that his self perpetuated seclusion, shown visually by the cellphone, was extremely destructive to him and his "family." Even Tifa mentions that he never picks up the phone but he never answers either. AC/ACC helped him graduate from that.

Someone prove to me that Cloud picked the damn flowers. Please. They're on his desk, sure. Somehow I find it far more likely that it was Denzel or Marlene or hell Tifa that picked them and put them in front of the group picture. Cloud DOES take them for rides. **headdesk**

It's not too far off that Cloud probably picked those flowers, he is the main character and the vehicle in which most of the story moves. But that doesn't mean he's frolicking with her spirit.

Placing flowers on a grave or hanging a picture on the wall means the same thing, you are honoring someone's memory. To honor and cherish a person that died doesn't necessarily mean that he's still wallowing in the emo of a true love. It means respecting.

Cloud put those flowers there, and that's a respectable. Trying to put a romantic context into everything dilutes the real meaning of the overall picture, that even if she is gone, she's still there in the hearts of the team. It's a shame that people ignore what that particular scene truly symbolized.
.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

COD: He hung up the phone and gave up the thought of stamping on the ground. Please let me borrow it again. He was going to dial Ruvi's number but he never knew it in the first place. He looked at the phone's list of calls.

He called the first number on the list. The tone of the line ringing could be heard. Someone picked up immediately.

"Cloud, it's so rare for you to call me. Has something happened?"

From that we could even infer Denzel dialed from Cloud's Outgoing Calls numbers, but ACC changes that. Not too dramatically, but enough to warrant mention.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It only makes sense he missed her calls characterwise. Wasn't he in a huge funk during that time?

The whole point was that his self perpetuated seclusion, shown visually by the cellphone, was extremely destructive to him and his "family." Even Tifa mentions that he never picks up the phone but he never answers either. AC/ACC helped him graduate from that.

It's not too far off that Cloud probably picked those flowers, he is the main character and the vehicle in which most of the story moves. But that doesn't mean he's frolicking with her spirit.

Placing flowers on a grave or hanging a picture on the wall means the same thing, you are honoring someone's memory. To honor and cherish a person that died doesn't necessarily mean that he's still wallowing in emo of a true love. I means honoring.

Cloud put those flowers there, and that's a respectable. Trying to put a romantic context into everything dilutes the real meaning of the overall picture, that even if she is gone, she's still there in the hearts of the team. It's a shame that people ignore what that particular scene truly symbolized.
.

If your referring to the flowers at the Buster Sword, I agree, Cloud put them there. Not for Aerith, for ZACK. But I'm talking about the flowers in front of the AVALANCHE group shot that Clerith fans have claimed Cloud picked during his jaunts into flower fields after AC.

 

[Splintered]

If your referring to the flowers at the Buster Sword, I agree, Cloud put them there. Not for Aerith, for ZACK. But I'm talking about the flowers in front of the AVALANCHE group shot that Clerith fans have claimed Cloud picked during his jaunts into flower fields after AC.

I was talking about that picture, because that symbolized her presence with the team, although she was not actually with them. Occam's Razor, Cloud probably did it, and nobody gave it much thought. I doubt any of the creators were hunched over thinking, "Ah! Flowers there, it surely means that Cloud drove to a special place that doesn't exist where he can find Aerith solidified!"

It didn't matter where those flowers come from, it only mattered what those flowers were showing; that Aerith is watching over them, and that they all cherished her.

I don't see any need for trying to come up with an elaborate theory to why Cloud obviously probably didn't pick up those flowers no way! Like him picking flowers proved anything either way.

It's kind of ridiculous to try and destroy ever bridge between Aerith-Cloud when she's such a huge part of the story and his character.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I was talking about that picture, because that symbolized her presence with the team, although she was not actually with them. Occam's Razor, Cloud probably did it, and nobody gave it much thought. I doubt any of the creators were hunched over thinking, "Ah! Flowers there, it surely means that Cloud drove to a special place that doesn't exist where he can find Aerith solidified!"

It didn't matter where those flowers come from, it only mattered what those flowers were showing; that Aerith is watching over them, and that they all cherished her.

I don't see any need for trying to come up with an elaborate theory to why Cloud obviously probably didn't pick up those flowers no way! Like him picking flowers proved anything either way.

It's kind of ridiculous to try and destroy ever bridge between Aerith-Cloud when she's such a huge part of the story and his character.

And I wouldn't destroy that bridge. She is important to the story, and to Cloud. But that being said, since we never see who picked the flowers it COULD be anyone. Cloud makes sense, sure. But it's not conclusive Clerithproofz! which was my point.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

It didn't matter where those flowers come from, it only mattered what those flowers were showing; that Aerith is watching over them, and that they all cherished her.

If Cleriths took it as that, which is what it's supposed to be, then we wouldn't have a problem.

I don't see any need for trying to come up with an elaborate theory to why Cloud obviously probably didn't pick up those flowers no way! Like him picking flowers proved anything either way.

What theory was elaborate? Cleriths see the flowers, say Cloud picked absolutely picked them, and then use that as proof that Cloud is having sex with her ghost.

So, it makes sense to remind them that they could have possibly been picked by the children or Tifa, sense they don't specify exactly who picked them or at what time they were picked.

It's kind of ridiculous to try and destroy ever bridge between Aerith-Cloud when she's such a huge part of the story and his character.

I don't believe that's what she was doing, though.

I personally think Cloud picked them and put them there. It would make sense to me, and the idea is sweet.

 

[Dashell]

It's kind of ridiculous to try and destroy ever bridge between Aerith-Cloud when she's such a huge part of the story and his character.

I just want to say that I do absolutely 100% agree with this. I mean Clotis have the love triangle wrapped up on a box with a ribbon. There's no need to disprove everything Cleriths say when we're the ones with the massive amounts of evidence.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I just want to say that I do absolutely 100% agree with this. I mean Clotis have the love triangle wrapped up on a box with a ribbon. There's no need to disprove everything Cleriths say when we're the ones with the massive amounts of evidence.

Nope. Just the ludicrous shit like: "OMG, you see the flowers on his desk? He must have gone to see Aerith!"

That stuff is ridiculous.

So when I say, someone prove to me it was Cloud that picked them, I'm not trying to say he COULDN'T have, I'm saying he's not the only choice that can be made and still be well within the boundaries of logic.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If you think about it, why do you think Aerith is represented by "flowers" in the first place?

People get angry at me for suggesting things involving Aerith and Flowers. Even in Jest.
Damn Flour seller.

Since the Victorian age and beyond, flowers represented the female sex organs of a young, chaste female (CC Ultimania anyone?)

Pre-victorian, and not always chaste.

and Cloud picking Aerith's flowers speaks volumes regarding their relationship. Flowers are the sexual organs of plants, and historically, "De-flowering someone" meant taking someones virginity.

And being a flower seller....

Georgia O'Keeffe of the 1920's is known amongst artist circles for her amazing paintings of flowers which represented the female sex organs. The symbolism is definitely there and is common in Japanese culture.

REPRESENTED? RESEMBLED, my good man.

The fact Cloud went to the flower field and returned with Aerith's flowers was the final nail in the coffin of the Cloud/Tifa relationship.

Except he brought them back to 7TH heaven where Tifa lives. So it's final nail in the C/T coffin, but that coffin is the final plank in the castle that is AerTi.

Well why do you think people give flowers to the people they love and have feelings for?

But that's hardly the only reason folks give or get flowers. I know you're being snarky, just saying.

Are you starting to understand the significance of Aerith offering Cloud a flower, and Cloud buying it for one gil?

Yep. The slatterly woman.

I think that speaks volumes regarding their relationship.

Just think about it with an open mind.

Yep. Babylon.

Is this some grand set up for a prostitute joke? I'd take it but it feels too easy.

Man, the original scene in FF7 was a setup for a prostitute joke.

That reminds me, I rewatched ACC yesterday and noted that Cloud has been missing calls from 7th Heaven since 5/5 until 29/6. That's nearly 2 months (55 days) of ignoring Tifa's calls.

Missed calls != ignored calls. Even when I miss my parent's or friends calls, I call back.

Since it sounds like he only starts ignoring her calls once he leaves that means he's probably been living in Aerith's church for nearly 2 months prior to AC as opposed to just two weeks, as was previously speculated.

Except that was about a year and a half before ACC happened, after which he returned home.

Nevermind that Cloud can actually give Tifa a flower.

So Aerith gives Cloud HER Flower, but Cloud gives Tifa HIS.
Hmm...

I find that all a bit fluffy. He stops in the field in Reminiscence and therefore he probably picked them in there, and in AC we see Aerith in the same field so basically he picked them in memory of Aerith. It's just cherishing her memory, I don't see the big hoo-hah some people like to make about it.

Actually, we see her in a field, but Cloud is driving along the highway at speed. 'The same field' is most unlikely given the time gap between her turning and when we see him in the field he likely stopped in.

And if he's been missing her calls for that long and living at the church, how was he suddenly able to just go drop off Denzel at Seventh Heaven and then live there and be a family?

Because Tifa is a clingy desperate naggy woman who Cloud just walks all over, DUH.

So yeah the calls are spaced far apart so he didn't miss much...

SERIOUSLY ANYONE ELSE WANNA SAY IT? 4 people isn't enough.

THE CALLS WERE SPACED FAR APART SO HE PROBABLY PICKED UP ON A FEW AND MADE RETURN CALLS FOR THE ONES HE MISSED.

 

[Celes Chere]

It's kind of ridiculous to try and destroy ever bridge between Aerith-Cloud when she's such a huge part of the story and his character.

I agree too. I like some of the 'Clerith' moments, I just don't see them as romantic like they do.

 

[Splintered]

What theory was elaborate? Cleriths see the flowers, say Cloud picked absolutely picked them, and then use that as proof that Cloud is having sex with her ghost.

So, it makes sense to remind them that they could have possibly been picked by the children or Tifa, sense they don't specify exactly who picked them or at what time they were picked.

The theory of spirit sex is scaring, I am saddened that I had to learn of it.

But what I meant was trying to build something from nothing. The idea that Cloud drove billions of miles to some far off place just to find some yellow flowers because he loves Aerith so deeply instead of simply picking flowers, placing them at his home. It's eyeroll worthy. It's not fanfiction, why bother assigning it more than what it is. But I also find it pertains to the idea that no it wasn't Cloud, it was Marlene when he took them zooming across to the flower fields for no reason in particular.

Using bad logic to counter bad logic could potentially turn FFVII fandom into a swirling vortex of doom, irrationality, and other things of silly qualities.

I don't believe that's what she was doing, though.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply she(?) was trying to destroy all things Clerth or anything like that. Piss poor wording on my part, it was meant more of a wrap up arguement that there's a general trend to absolutely deny any special connection between Aerith-Cloud. I mean, it's not new, every fandom does the same thing. It's one of my pet peeves > _ >

 

[Ryushikaze]

The theory of spirit sex is scaring, I am saddened that I had to learn of it.

You think you got it bad? I read the fanfic.

But what I meant was trying to build something from nothing. The idea that Cloud drove billions of miles to some far off place just to find some yellow flowers because he loves Aerith so deeply instead of simply picking flowers, placing them at his home. It's eyeroll worthy. It's not fanfiction, why bother assigning it more than what it is. But I also find it pertains to the idea that no it wasn't Cloud, it was Marlene when he took them zooming across to the flower fields for no reason in particular.

Using bad logic to counter bad logic could potentially turn FFVII fandom into a swirling vortex of doom, irrationality, and other things of silly qualities.

I disagree. Using overt and ludicrous illogic to counter bad logic used elsewhere by highlighting how bad it actually is had been a time honored rhetorical tactic.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply she(?) was trying to destroy all things Clerth or anything like that. Piss poor wording on my part, it was meant more of a wrap up arguement that there's a general trend to absolutely deny any special connection between Aerith-Cloud. I mean, it's not new, every fandom does the same thing. It's one of my pet peeves > _ >

The thing is, we don't really try to do that, except perhaps in snark, to poke fun at both the 'everything is C/A' and 'nothing is C/T' we sometimes see from the opposing camp.

 

[Dashell]

You think you got it bad? I read the fanfic.

... so... can I see it?

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Careful, Quexi. Once read it cannot be unread.

Or so I hear. I haven't read it, either.

(because I'm scared. )

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The idea that Cloud drove billions of miles to some far off place just to find some yellow flowers because he loves Aerith so deeply instead of simply picking flowers, placing them at his home. It's eyeroll worthy. It's not fanfiction, why bother assigning it more than what it is. But I also find it pertains to the idea that no it wasn't Cloud, it was Marlene when he took them zooming across to the flower fields for no reason in particular.

Using bad logic to counter bad logic could potentially turn FFVII fandom into a swirling vortex of doom, irrationality, and other things of silly qualities.

Why would it be so hard to fathom Marlene or Denzel or Tifa. We see that Cloud takes Denzel to the Midgar overlook where there are... **gasp** flowers. The exact flowers that show up on his desk... Surely that's far less of a stretch than Cloud angsting in weeds for lake-rotted Aerith?

Again, I'm not saying Cloud couldn't have picked the flowers, for the reasons you mentioned, or any number of other reasons. What I'm pointing out is that it also could have been a number of other people and STILL be well within the boundaries of REASONABLE LOGIC.

 

[Splintered]

Why would it be so hard to fathom Marlene or Denzel or Tifa. We see that Cloud takes Denzel to the Midgar overlook where there are... **gasp** flowers. The exact flowers that show up on his desk... Surely that's far less of a stretch than Cloud angsting in weeds for lake-rotted Aerith?

Again, I'm not saying Cloud couldn't have picked the flowers, for the reasons you mentioned, or any number of other reasons. What I'm pointing out is that it also could have been a number of other people and STILL be well within the boundaries of REASONABLE LOGIC.

Yeah, I am being kinda melodramatic and it isn't that hard to fathom. But honestly, neither is Cloud driving for a day of solitude and remembrance, to a place that reminds him of Aerith. I guess what I'm trying to say, the scenario is not as much as ridiculous as the fact that we are ignoring the most possible solution and taking time to venture off into a different theory about a scene that's barely a scene. So that we could argue about the romantics about that scene when it wasn't meant to be romantic.

... so... can I see it?

Don't post the link. If you do, I'll definitely have to read it myself.

 

[Ryushikaze]

... so... can I see it?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=107370

BE WARNED.