Air Squirrel is the true heroine of FFVII and you know it.
Also, how dare anyone accuse me of butchering Japanese! Babelfish is a highly respected source of lulz.
It also missed the point by calling Ai a 'graduation' from Koi, which was really, REALLY squicky, since parental love for a child would be classed as Ai.
But... does it say anywhere else that Cloud have "undying" or romantic feelings for Aerith? Like in the Ultmania or something? Because it would feel really weird if SE said in an interview "Cloud loves Aerith!" and then it hasn't been stated a anywhere else. It's not stated in the Ultmania.
Yep. Physical intimacy. Like we see them continue to do from the cuddling to the butt touch to the staying next to each other at the end of the FMV.
I don't think I've ever seen 'undying feelings' (in Japanese) before. It gets few results on Google even if you change how it's written a little, so it doesn't appear to be very common. There was also another argument related to this, about how shite 'koi' is compared with 'ai', but that was completely missing the point because it was talking about the completely wrong word.
Hmmm. But I guess the point is that the translators chose "undying" as opposed to any other word and would of had to of been pretty dense not to see how "undying feelings" makes it look like Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
No, but I heard the orgasm of Aerith. You see, she and Tifa had smex before Cloud came. And well... he maybe said "NOOOOOOOOOO" just because he was jealous, or that he missed one of the most smexy hentai-yuri moments in the FF history?
Yeah, I agree. But don't you think a little of the Z!Cloud slipped through then? But I think Zack's death was more tragic, because Cloud nearly cries, and screams. So that would make Clack canon... Is that your conclusion?
He may have also cried when Aerith died, we just can't tell because of the crummy graphics. It'd just be weird if he was saying all that and didn't have at least one tear in his eyeballs.
Also, Cloud is very happy and it's obvious to see that he likes Zack in Crisis Core. In FFVII however, Cloud acts more disinterested and distant towards the girls for most of the time so the sudden turn to an emotional wreck is what gives Aerith's death so much more impact.
No seriously, the longer I've been curious of this LTD the more convinced I've become that it's all about Clack. It's really hard to think otherwise.
I think Zack and Cloud were more romantic. I mean... "Do you wanna eat dinner with me?" < That's so romantic it hurts. But again, back to Clerith. That's a part of the plot twist. And well... I blame it on the Zack in Cloud.
The real Cloud have issues about "flirting". But he is trying it on Tifa. I think it holds more proof that the REAL Cloud flirts with Tifa, then that the Z!Cloud flirts with Aerith. (And at the same time, Aerith is very clingy)
Now that you mention it, I could of sworn I heard him gagging at one point.
Really? I don't think so. Kinda reflects, though longer, the speech given on the death of the water Shrine Maiden in 3, and Galuf's death in 5 (Hell, there's an emotional response. Krile really loved her grampa.)
Common sense tells us they wouldn't put incest into a video game yet it'd be an obvious assumption that Cloud has romantic feelings for the woman he was tearing himself up over and had in his arms at that moment.
That scream sounds more emotional to me than the speech does. As Sakurai said, he tried to put his entire soul into it.
It helps that Crisis Core had spoken audio while FFVII could only convey the emotions of it's characters through the blocky polygon graphics and the poorly translated text.
But even then, Cloud's big speech sounded very painful and raw to me despite not having a VA to bring it to life.
Idunno, it kinda reminds me of Inigo Montoya, or the bits in the cop movies when they get revenge on the guy who killed their partner.
I bet they didn't gush out an overdramatic speech like Cloud's though, or hold their partner in their arms and became all emo at the guy who had just shot them.
'Could be' is all well and good, but those hints are just as optional and far less overt than anything to the otherwise.
"I'm alone." "But I'm... no, WE'RE all here, how can you be alone?" Is the jist of that bit. It's Cloud not getting Aerith is alone because she's the last ancient.
But... does it say anywhere else that Cloud have "undying" or romantic feelings for Aerith? Like in the Ultmania or something? Because it would feel really weird if SE said in an interview "Cloud loves Aerith!" and then it hasn't been stated a anywhere else. It's not stated in the Ultmania.
So you'd disregard what is said in an interview just because it's not stated in an Ultimania? It's still the words of the creators so you can't exactly dismiss it.
No, Cloud have his own undying feeling for Aerith. Everyone carries their own feeling for her.
He feels alot about her, guilt, losing something precious, and why not love?
It hasn't been stated anywhere else. So... I'm not convinced really.
I posted, and then saw Hito'd posted. So yeah, you can dismiss what I said there.
EDIT: Actually, hang on a minute.
hitoshura said:
この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いはあると = there's not really anything there singling anything out like 'his own', like there was above (in bold). Just that he still has some 'undying feelings' as well.
Hmmm. But I guess the point is that the translators chose "undying" as opposed to any other word and would of had to of been pretty dense not to see how "undying feelings" makes it look like Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
I've been thinking about something, all you rapid Clotis...
When Clerith's says: "Cloud and Aerith flirted with eachother" and you say: "But that was not the real Cloud. It was Z!Cloud."
...But when it comes to something that the Z!Cloud said to Tifa, it's so canon!!!
Can't you just understand?!?! Cloti was even meant to be a part of the plot twist. CLACK IS THE NEW CLOTI!!!!!!!!!!!!111 Everyone is realizing it, so why shouldn't YOU?
No, Cloud have his own undying feeling for Aerith. Everyone carries their own feeling for her.
He feels alot about her, guilt, losing something precious, and why not love?
It hasn't been stated anywhere else. So... I'm not convinced really.
But where does element of "love" come into this? I'd like you to justify its placement please, without trying to equate guilt and feelings of sadness/loss as love, which they aren't.
But where does element of "love" come into this? I'd like you to justify its placement please, without trying to equate guilt and feelings of sadness/loss as love, which they aren't.
Well looking at the source material, they're undying feelings of friendship, with a pinch of regret, sadness, and guilt. Where do Clerii get this element of love? Because she forced him into a date he half heartedly agreed to after knowing her for only about 2 weeks?
Obvisouly, since Tifa being called Cloud's childhood friend (even though the silly whore never was) means they aren't a couple, Aerith is no more Cloud's lover than Barret is.
Well looking at the source material, they're undying feelings of friendship, with a pinch of regret, sadness, and guilt. Where do Clerii get this element of love? Because she forced him into a date he half heartedly agreed to?
Some say that 'undying' is a word you use for love. Some say it isn't. I'm not sure myself. But I do wonder, could the Z!Cloud fall in love with Aerith, and then after becoming the real Cloud still have those feelings? What I thought is that the real Cloud have feelings for the girl he falled in love with when he was young, Tifa. Why would those feelings go away? It's more true that his Z!Cloud-feelings for Aerith would go away.
Obvisouly, since Tifa being called Cloud's childhood friend (even though the silly whore never was) means they aren't a couple, Aerith is no more Cloud's lover than Barret is.
Koibito is the word equivalent of getting kicked in the balls compared to 'aibito'. I mean 'aijin'. 'Ai bito' is the slang one!
Some people, 'Japanese' people, might tell you that it means adulterous lover. But those are just stupid Westernised fools who have forsaken their Yamato pride. It has 'ai' in it. That means it's the greatest love imaginable.
How are "undying feelings" anything romantic? Cloud has undying feelings of hatred for Sephiroth. Does that equate to love?
And what you've described is a hypothetical, but the fact is..is that there wasn't any "love" that Cloud fell in. And I'd think his true feelings for Tifa which he had since a child would hold more weight than the feelings he developed under a false persona.
How are "undying feelings" anything romantic? Cloud has undying feelings of hatred for Sephiroth. Does that equate to love?
And what you've described is a hypothetical, but the fact is..is that there wasn't any "love" that Cloud fell in. And I'd think his true feelings for Tifa which he had since a child would hold more weight than the feelings he developed under a false persona.
No, Cloud have his own undying feeling for Aerith. Everyone carries their own feeling for her. He feels alot about her, guilt, losing something precious, and why not love?
With that mindset you can pass off Uematsu talking about being influenced by Cloud's smile "to Tifa" as rubbish because it's never been stated in an Ultimania or a guide book.
Some say that 'undying' is a word you use for love. Some say it isn't. I'm not sure myself. But I do wonder, could the Z!Cloud fall in love with Aerith, and then after becoming the real Cloud still have those feelings? What I thought is that the real Cloud have feelings for the girl he falled in love with when he was young, Tifa. Why would those feelings go away? It's more true that his Z!Cloud-feelings for Aerith would go away.
Yeah, this is the same translator who told us it was "koi_bito" as well, FYI.
And I still am waiting for something truly indicative of love coming from Cloud, in regards to Aerith. Him crying that she died doesn't equal romantic feelings.
With that mindset you can pass off Uematsu talking about being influenced by Cloud's smile "to Tifa" as rubbish because it's never been stated in an Ultimania or a guide book.
Maybe it's not mentioned that they dissapeard because he never had any romantical feelings for her? His feelings for Aerith would go away with the Zack in Cloud. But if you say that "undying" is something romantic, then maybe the real Cloud did love Aerith. BUT IT STILL HASN'T BEEN STATED IN THE ULTIMANIA OR SOMETHING ELSE. But his feelings for Tifa has been stated.
IIRC:
- Resha was the one who first brought up that (and with the interview)
- Chibica came next, doing translations from the Ultimanias and such
- Satsu or Saki, I think, is the name of the person who translated this
Yes, they're different, but these feelings are DISTINGUISHED from Love used in the previous sentence. If they were romantic in nature, it makes no sense to use the basic word for feelings to mean love when the word has already been used. It's like me saying "I love Pizza and I enjoy broccoli" and then assuming I love broccoli.
Well unlike mutual feelings which are definitely easier to define with the context, having "undying feelings" for another person typically has romantic connotations and I hardly ever see it to refer to anything else. When it is it is made pretty clear e.g. "undying guilt".
The thing is, in typical Nomura speak, he also point out that WHAT those undying feelings are can be conveyed by the movie, so what those undying feelings are is deliberately stated as unspecified.
Maybe this is a cultural difference or something because whenever someone says "I have feelings for *whoever*" it's a given that these feelings are romantic. If the feelings someone is speaking of having for another person are not romantic then they tend to make this very clear to avoid misunderstanding. They do this through carefully choosing the wording and how they structure the sentence.
Feelings FOR are different from feelings about or regarding, and in the original quote, I'd argue the latter would be a more accurate rendition into english.
Now that hasn't happened here, it is not clear. So either this is the result of "undying feelings" being intened to mean romantic feelings, or the sentence is just badly worded.
It also has a strong link to rage, destruction, and Sephiroth.
I don't know about Japanese myself but I believe Hito already cleared up that the characters used for undying are also used in other situations where romance is involved.
There's a difference between remembering the acts of ZaCloud and aspects of the ZaCloud personality lingering beyond its existence. It's possible to remember a love you had while amnesiatic while not sharing that love once your memories return.
"Undying feelings" is almost idiomatic in its connotations of love.
It can be, but it's not exclusive. And with a slight reword to the translation which is just as accurate 'feelings that do not die' it becomes much more open.
If you were to throw that quote at a load of randomers and unbiasedly explain the backstory then they'd most likely be agreeing that the quote is strongly indicating that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
It's not the quote's fault, but the translation's.
Like I said in the reply to Rinali, his speech that came out at her death was pretty powerful for that of a girl he knew for 2 weeks and just thought was hot.
So was Lead OK/Luneth's reaction to the Water Priestess's death.
"Eternal everlasting" sounds cheesy more than anything. It's basically saying he has romantic feelings that will never diminish. That doesn't mean he can't love Tifa though, especially now he's himself.
I'm asking why must it be romantic feelings, essentially.
Well I'd bet there's another FF in the series somewhere in which there's one character that's interested in both of the other characters in the love traingle. And even if not, hadn't we already cleared up a couple of pages back that comparing FFVII to other FF games is flawed because all FF games, characters and stroylines are meant to be different?
It is, that's not the point of my comparison. My point of bringing up this love triangle was an example of a love triangle in which two people are interested in a third, and the third is only interested in one of them. My point is that just because it's a love triangle it DOES NOT MEAN Cloud is interested in both by default.
The point is that Cloud's own feelings are being separated from those of the viewers and comrades. Their feelings have been lumped together in the previous sentence indicating they're all similar.
Unless I misread, she said 'you can', not 'Cloud does.'
I don't know if that was what FHS was saying but I can definitely agree with what you've said here. It's part of helping us suspect something basically. He doesn't even know of his feelings for her until the lifestream scene and yet slowly his facade starts cracking in regards to it as the game leads us up to it.
Well, He is aware of his feelings for her, I think, hence his intererst in Tifa's words during the date, he's just not quite sure as to why, given his cocked up memories.
Well it's suggestive that Aerith recons something could be going on between them at any rate.
Hmmm. But I guess the point is that the translators chose "undying" as opposed to any other word and would of had to of been pretty dense not to see how "undying feelings" makes it look like Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
He may have also cried when Aerith died, we just can't tell because of the crummy graphics. It'd just be weird if he was saying all that and didn't have at least one tear in his eyeballs.
Also, Cloud is very happy and it's obvious to see that he likes Zack in Crisis Core. In FFVII however, Cloud acts more disinterested and distant towards the girls for most of the time so the sudden turn to an emotional wreck is what gives Aerith's death so much more impact.
He actually doesn't act all that distant. As someone points out elsewhere, he's putting on a tough guy facade, even as ZaCloud, but he's still rather kind.
No seriously, the longer I've been curious of this LTD the more convinced I've become that it's all about Clack. It's really hard to think otherwise.
Whoa, totally missing the point- I'm saying the OPPOSITE. Krile's speech isn't romantic, and smacks of a different sort of bond, and is quite like- though far more emotional than- Cloud's short bit.
yet it'd be an obvious assumption that Cloud has romantic feelings for the woman he was tearing himself up over and had in his arms at that moment.
But it also wouldn't be unheard of to mourn the passing of a good comrade, dear friend, and as far as he knew innocent soul at the hands of the man he despised.
It helps that Crisis Core had spoken audio while FFVII could only convey the emotions of it's characters through the blocky polygon graphics and the poorly translated text.
But even then, Cloud's big speech sounded very painful and raw to me despite not having a VA to bring it to life.
Dunno about 'raw', but he has just seen a woman murdered before his very eyes and the man who did it is standing around talking about how awesome he is. Come to think of it, that speech wouldn't be out of place at all if Aerith was just a man or woman on the street Seph has just brutally gutted.
I bet they didn't gush out an overdramatic speech like Cloud's though, or hold their partner in their arms and became all emo at the guy who had just shot them.
Don't use that word. FUCKING HATE that word.
And actually, speeches and holding dead and dying partners in their arms ARE part and parcel of dead partners in cop movies- at least when it happens in a condition for the cop to be around for it.
Yes, Aerith feels lonely because she's a Cetra but Cloud is trying to comfort her and wants to show her that he's...they are all there for her.
Yes, AND? Cloud is trying to make the point that she's not alone. So he points out that he, nay, they all are there, so she can't be alone. Does not automatic romance make.
So you'd disregard what is said in an interview just because it's not stated in an Ultimania? It's still the words of the creators so you can't exactly dismiss it.
No, I'd disregard promotional blurbs for promotional blurbs. Nomura has said blatantly misleading and untrue things about upcoming games before.
He said Kairi and Namine had no connection.
But she has a point- this seems like a strange thing to say in a single comment in a promo blurb for AC yet not follow up with ANYWHERE ELSE.
I've been thinking about something, all you rapid Clotis...
When Clerith's says: "Cloud and Aerith flirted with eachother" and you say: "But that was not the real Cloud. It was Z!Cloud."
...But when it comes to something that the Z!Cloud said to Tifa, it's so canon!!!
Because, as people so love to point out for us, Cloud has multiple personalities on disc 1.
Besides, Aerith did pretty much all the flirting. Also, I'd state that as time goes on closer to Cloud's breakdown, and more of the shell chips away, the less of an enigma he is, which incidentally is reflected by random choices trailing off to vanish almost entirely after the date option.
Can't you just understand?!?! Cloti was even meant to be a part of the plot twist. CLACK IS THE NEW CLOTI!!!!!!!!!!!!111 Everyone is realizing it, so why shouldn't YOU?
I have undying feelings for my father. I have undying feelings for my kids. I have undying feelings about racism. I have undying feelings about my rapist.
I mean, my friend is reading this over my shoulder and she thinks it's preposterous some of you think otherwise.
With that mindset you can pass off Uematsu talking about being influenced by Cloud's smile "to Tifa" as rubbish because it's never been stated in an Ultimania or a guide book.
