The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Frostwave]

Yes, I'm sure that's the case KTR, and not your fear of the severe intellectual beatdown to come.

Ohohoho! Aaaand with that, KTR has logged off.

But...I'm sure it's because she had that "life" of her's to get back to.

I saw his smile for all the kids and his friends too, but the last one imo just seemed kinda like the finale smile to his departing friends and all this burdens "walking away" (yah, symbolism! c

'Smile to his friends?' Are you insinuating his shy smile to Tifa after the zoom in to her face was to everyone, or are you admitting Zack and Aerith are both extant and both his friends?

O I just noticed that. Huh... :/ Are you still claiming neutrality these days KTR?

 

[I Am Not Me]

What the...

You rapids. Stop picking on KTR. I logged on just to say this.

Haha, you sure no one noticed that huge slow mo one that faded to black? I thought it was just a bit too queer to miss actually, but that's just me. xD

Of course I noticed that. He smiled at Zack's perfect ass. How could I miss such heavy Clack proof?

 

[Fighter]

Yo everyone!

Not really. Uematsu says "When I was skimming through the script there was one line at the end that said something like "Cloud smiles"...Sometimes a small phrase like that can influence the music."

He read this:

The other kids jump into the spring one by one. The church is filled with joyous chatter. Tifa looks at Cloud with a smile. Cloud smiles back at her with a shy expression. Tifa gives a satisfied nod.

Hence OWD is right. He was inspired by that first smile, it's what he would have read in the script.

The whole thing with the smile is funny because pinkers have been bragging for years that the song was written for Cloud/Aerith smile and that Cloud never smiles at Tifa period. When the script came out the irony was hilarious.

 

[Vendel]

What the...

You rapids. Stop picking on KTR. I logged on just to say this.

Don't start none wont be none....

There does tend to be a toeing of a party line going on.

A line which shifts radically depending on the topic at hand.

 

[Frostwave]

The whole thing with the smile is funny because pinkers have been bragging for years that the song was written for Cloud/Aerith smile and that Cloud never smiles at Tifa period. When the script came out the irony was hilarious.

After reading that is probably where they first started looking for tiny errors in the script in a poor attempt to discredit it.

Either that, or the part where it says that Aerith wasn't "solid and in the real world" during the now deleted scene where Aerith is seen in the flower field.

Haha.

You rapids. Stop picking on KTR. I logged on just to say this.

No. ^^

 

[Raquelborn]

Raq, there is only one smile from Cloud referenced in the script at the end. That is the shy smile to Tifa. That is the one Nobue wrote the song for.

No other smile is referenced.

I can see that. I was correcting OWD thinking Uematsu said anything about the children scene, or that he said he was inspired. He actually said the smile in the script influenced the music, not that it "inspired" him.

Haha, you sure no one noticed that huge slow mo one that faded to black? I thought it was just a bit too queer to miss actually, but that's just me. xD

Good point. While it's not in the script that we got with the DVD, there is a big smile there, so it must of been put into the script at some point.

Driving by again KTR, or do you plan to hang around a bit this time? XD

Anyway, though the moment was focused on, I wouldn't call that a huge smile, KTR. His mouth barely turns up at all. It's not an obvious smile to me. He looks peaceful, and that of course is nice, considering it took the whole movie to get him there. ^^

To be honest, I didn't even notice that Cloud smiled at Tifa the first few times I watched AC, yet I always noticed the smile at the end.

He read this:

The other kids jump into the spring one by one. The church is filled with joyous chatter. Tifa looks at Cloud with a smile. Cloud smiles back at her with a shy expression. Tifa gives a satisfied nod.

Hence OWD is right. He was inspired by that first smile, it's what he would have read in the script.

OWD was along the right lines, but he/she seemed to of mixed up what Uematsu and Nomura said in the documentary. I was making it strictly clear what had actually been said.

 

[Isabella]

I think this is the reason they decided the official script wasn't trustworthy.

Spoiler

And maybe KTR would have a better chance of not getting picked on if she read what people were talking about before weighing in.

 

[Raquelborn]

I think this is the reason they decided the official script wasn't trustworthy.

Spoiler

... that sounds perfectly correct.

Is it the "vestiges" that some people have an issue with? (Vestige: A faint mark or visible sign left by something which is lost, or has perished, or is no longer present; remains. - Wiktionary) But even then, even though she looks quite solid, she still looks out-of-worldy to me.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

To be honest, I didn't even notice that Cloud smiled at Tifa the first few times I watched AC, yet I always noticed the smile at the end.

I find that hard to believe for the simple reason that such emphasis was put on that smile exchange between Cloud and Tifa, but be that as it may, Cloud is not smiling at anyone in that last shot. He is smiling, but it's more a look of contentment and peace, and since Aerith and her boy-toy Zack are back-to and immersed in white light, it's hardly a smile at them.

The music was inspired by the notion that Cloud--who we rarely see show any emotion--is smiling. That's the simple truth. There's no romantic mystery behind the music influence. However, the scene itself is called "Cloud Smiles" and if one dissects the source of that smile it boils down to Cloud smiling at Tifa and their shared bond, his relief, and his final acceptance of himself.

I believe the whole issue came about with claims from Clerith fans stating that Cloud only smiles at the end, at Aerith, and therefore the song was inspired/influenced by that, which is very clearly false based not only on common sense--watching the movie--and the script, coupled with commentary from the very creators.

But, mini-ramble aside, I do believe the source of influence and source of the smile is clearly shown and no longer in need of dissection as it's already known.

Is it the "vestiges" that some people have an issue with? (Vestige: A faint mark or visible sign left by something which is lost, or has perished, or is no longer present; remains. - Wiktionary) But even then, even though she looks quite solid, she still looks out-of-worldy to me.

Except she's not there at all anymore...

 

[Isabella]

Is it the "vestiges" that some people have an issue with?

Essentially, yes. They've argued that because Aerith seems more solid than the script says, the whole intent of the scene has changed and the script can be tossed aside because it's too unreliable.

I wish I could say I'm kidding, but this was their argument in debates back when they used to debate.

 

[Celes Chere]

They are both handsome, who are pretty talented with a sword.

I'd say Tidus is cute, not handsome... and I dunno, Tidus falls over when he first gets his hands on his sword.

Because there are some fans who believe Tifa to be the main heroine of Final Fantasy VII. And while Tifa's role is very important and I do consider a heroine of Final Fantasy VII, she is not the main heroine.

The creators said both Aerith and Tifa share the heroine role, though. My feeling is that Tifa takes the secondary role, but it appears that she doesn't according to facts.

In Final Fantasy X-2, Yuna has hope that she can find Tidus thanks to a sphere found and then literally searches the globe to try to find him.

Sounds more like a Cloti parallel to me. And hey, no-one called Yuna a stalker for trying to find Tidus relentlessly, now did they? : ) I am totally not convinced by this essay, like not even a little bit. The only part I can see, is the bodyguard thing.

But you know... Tifa beat Aerith to that one a long time ago. Cloud is her hero and savior- since childhood. It's a promise even. Promises play a big role in lots of romances... it's a darn shame that Cloud and Aerith don't have a solid one like CT does.

Celes: “Locke. Why did you help me escape back there?”
Locke: “I... once abandoned someone when she needed me...”
Celes: “Somewhere inside you were saving... her, weren't you...?”
(Locke is silent and turns away to the door)
Locke: “That ribbon suits you.”

This reminds me of Cloti more than anything! Seriously, do rapids see the word 'ribbon' and think OMG CLERITHZ?! Look at Celes feeling uneasy because of Rachel. This is almost exactly how Tifa feels towards Aerith, but Locke isn't with Rachel (anymore). If you believe that Cloud has feelings for Aerith, then it's the same thing pretty much. He's showing his remorse towards the past, and nothing else.

Locke: “I promised I'd protect her. I WILL NOT back out on my word.”

Cloti anyone? Cloud promised Aerith a date (according to the Ultimania) , but Cloud promised to save Tifa whenever she was in trouble. That relates to this quote far more than Clerith does.

IV – Cecil Harvey, a Dark Knight/Paladin and Rosa Farrell, a White Mage.
VI – Locke Cole, a Thief and Adventurer, and Celes Chere, a Magitek Warrior.
VIII – Squall Leonheart, a Gunblade expert and mercenary, and Rinoa Heartilly, a Sorceress.
IX – Zidane Tribal, a Warrior-Thief, and Garnet, a White Mage and a princess.
X – Tidus, a Warrior, and Yuna, a Summoner and White Mage.
XII – Vaan, a Sky Pirate, and Penelo, a White Mage.

Fran was a fucking Vierra, and Balthier didn't seem to mind. Really, the class thing makes no sense, especially when Penelo can be anything you want her to in XII. And Celes/Locke don't fit the 'white mage magic user' crap either. Celes is a warrior... and if I remember correctly, Aerith is no warrior.

Like Locke, Cloud is faced with the injury of someone dear to him (Rachel/Tifa),

How is Rachel the Tifa in this situation? Celes acts very similar to Tifa, and Rachel is also the one that dies and says "move on with the one that is now in your heart". That definitely fits Aerith. You know, the whole telling Cloud she never blamed him and entrusting her feelings to Tifa.

The only one I can possibly see is Squinoa, and that's only a few coincidences.

 

[DillyDally]

So this is the original love triangle debate thread?
I fall behind way too much.....
Could someone tell me what aspect you guys are talking about now? briefly.

 

[Madame Mayor]

So this is the original love triangle debate thread?
I fall behind way too much.....
Could someone tell me what aspect you guys are talking about now? briefly.

I think it's about how "Cloud's Smile" was written for the smile that Cloud gives Tifa, but pinkers like to believe that he doesn't smile at Tifa at all or something crazy like that.

 

[paoo]

We have the script, it says that Cloud smiles at Tifa. It also proves that spirit!smex is impossible. Can we let go of that now?

I have a question, I know some of you have talked about "Danzaaii"/Sky. What bad have she done that you can't even say? I really wanna know if it is so rapid

 

[Ryushikaze]

Y'know, that absurd Class of the leads comparison never made much sense to me, but let's take it further. Let's actually look at those characters a bit further.

IV – Cecil Harvey, a Dark Knight/Paladin and Rosa Farrell, a White Mage.

Cecil Harvey, a man who has an existential crisis, and the childhood friend who specifically trained herself so she wouldn't be useless in a pinch (Plus, she's pretty damn handy with a bow)

VI – Locke Cole, a Thief and Adventurer, and Celes Chere, a Magitek Warrior.

This coupling, with happy peppy Locke getting Celes to cheer up considerably, I'd say reminds me more of Z/A, though it has C/T analogues as well.

VIII – Squall Leonheart, a Gunblade expert and mercenary, and Rinoa Heartilly, a Sorceress.

Except she isn't a sorceress for most of the game, but part of a resistance group. She also makes a promise with the hero to come back that becomes a focus for him during a period where his mind is slipping away.
Now, a Merc, a Rebel fighter, and a promise of coming back. Hmmm...

IX – Zidane Tribal, a Warrior-Thief, and Garnet, a White Mage and a princess.

Warrior Thief? And Garnet is a Summoner first, white mage second. Eiko is the reverse.

X – Tidus, a Warrior, and Yuna, a Summoner and White Mage.

Tidus, guardian, and Yuna, summoner. Now who else has been called a guardian and summoner...

XII – Vaan, a Sky Pirate, and Penelo, a White Mage.

Vaan, Sky Pirate wannabe, and Penelo, childhood friend and dancer. Also the de facto Mom of their group of friends, with Vaan as the de facto father figure.

 

[paoo]

It's kind of dumb to compare FF couples to other FF couples, I'm pretty sure that SE didn't want to have the same story over and over again with the couples.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

IX and X have summoners, not specifically white mages and it's a huge deal to the plot. Also, why is Zidane a warrior-thief? He's a thief, dood...

I have a question, I know some of you have talked about "Danzaii"/Skye. What bad have she done that you can't even say? I really wanna know if it is so rapid

Because she's a stupid troll who pretends that she isn't one. She trolls videos all over Youtube. And other stuff. I just don't like her.

 

[paoo]

Because she's a stupid troll who pretends that she isn't one. She trolls videos all over Youtube. And other stuff. I just don't like her.

Oh...

Isn't funny that Cloud and Tifa have their own page in the Ultimania, alot of proof, while Cloud and Aerith have none. Doesn't the Ultimania count or wut?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Doesn't the Ultimania count or wut?

Only when you can twist the things it says to sound vaguely Clerithy.

 

[Vendel]

Only when you can twist the things it says to sound vaguely Clerithy.

Meh...the only twisting they are doing is in the wind.

I mean seriously. When you have to write out paragraphs to 'explain' a couple lines from CoT*(new life with Tifa, and Cloud Blushing). Plus multiple essays to 'explain' away koi bito(no wait it's koibito again).

When you have youtards reduced to arguing that "it's not definite that C/T are in a relationship"*. Yet they continue to argue........GAH!!!



*takes several deep breaths*

Anyways. They argue not good n stuff.

*examples provided upon request

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The basic problem has and always will be that for some fanon<canon and therefore their pairing of choice MUST be canon in order for it to be the "better" pairing. The problem isn't "liking" a pairing, so much as it is trying to manipulate that pairing into the canon mold. And in this case they have to stretch and twist in almost impossible ways to fit--and even then there are huge gaps that will crack in the kiln...

The narrative is very specific, it's not ambiguous or "implied" anything. It's stated. It's shown. It's emphasized in a hundred and five different ways, and yet "shippers" refuse to take the compilation whole--because it chokes them to swallow--and instead only focus on bits. They lack foundation for their arguments and anything they try and build is easily toppled.

 

[Raquelborn]

We have the script, it says that Cloud smiles at Tifa. It also proves that spirit!smex is impossible. Can we let go of that now?

I'm not completely convinced but this argument isn't going to go anywhere. FHS wrapped it up nicely (yet again ) anyway.

Isn't funny that Cloud and Tifa have their own page in the Ultimania, alot of proof, while Cloud and Aerith have none. Doesn't the Ultimania count or wut?

Well Cleriths do have the "undying feelings" quote, but it seems that the simply greater number of Cloti lines and references throughout all the official materials overpower it.

The narrative is very specific, it's not ambiguous or "implied" anything. It's stated. It's shown. It's emphasized in a hundred and five different ways, and yet "shippers" refuse to take the compilation whole--because it chokes them to swallow--and instead only focus on bits. They lack foundation for their arguments and anything they try and build is easily toppled.

Basically, we need a kissing scene between Cloud and Tifa. The face stroking wasn't enough so a big-deal kissing scene would be needed to topple the opposition. Not like we'll ever get it though because I personally can't ever see Cloud and Tifa making out like Tidus and Yuna did.

 

[null.]

Kissing isn't the answer. You can't satisfy the moving goalposts of motivated shippers.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's been said before and shall be again- Cloud and Tifa getting married and having blatant sex on screen in the chapel would not satisfy the rabid shippers, just as the marriage of Harry and Ginny and Hermi going after Ron didn't satisfy the Harmonians.

 

[null.]

It sure would make my day, though.