The Good and The Bad of Final Fantasy XII

[Celes Chere]

Except generally, thousands of gamers all gave the game the worst score of any FF game, from VII-X-2. A few companies and reviewers do not equal the sum total of thousands of people, nor are they who the GAME WAS INTENDED FOR.

Yes, and you refuse to see the thousands that liked the game as well, lol. That's what I've been saying all along, a few companies and reviews don't make it the truth. Do you have proof that FFXII is more hated than loved? You have no possible way of knowing that, and in any case, this Forum seems to be proof right now that XII is actually liked by a lot of people. Your point of view is rather biased and one sided, and I don't mean that to be rude or anything, it's just true. A bad game would be like... *thinks* Idk, someone fill in the blank for me. XD

User reviews are far more unbiased and resourceful, and big companies frequently lie.

Well, Xplay has never LIED like that to my knowledge. I remember they rated Crisis Core what was it, a 2/5 and fans were pissed off at them or something? IDK. I agreed with the rating since they said it was a better movie than a game, which is pretty much true.

In any case, you can't base your whole ideas on ONE form of rating, one site, etc... that doesn't stand for the entire population. =/ If you do, admit it's your opinion and not a fact. I'm sorry, but when I look at things I like to look at the facts and will admit when something is an opinion... just saying. xD

 

[DLPB]

Yes, and you refuse to see the thousands that liked the game as well, lol.

Good lord do you understand what an average is? Do you understand what it means when thousands of user reviewers GENERALLY agree that XII is the weakest FF?

You have no possible way of knowing that,

Except I just showed you statistical evidence, taken from review scores and not just any old voting system.

Xplay has never LIED like that to my knowledge

1 company to thousands of ordinary users? That's still 1000-1. As for one rating site, metacritic is one of the best and bases it on actual review scores.

 

[Celes Chere]

Wow, bite my head off? I'm not even attacking you... xD Hun, you gave me statistics based on one site. You base your opinion off of this one site. Are you telling me everyone that has ever played FFXII has left a rating on that website?

I was just giving you an example, that there are opposing views on this game, and you're wrong that it is the most hated FF, and that it's a bad game.

 

[Max Payne]

We weren't arguing about those differences, Mr. Straw Man.

There you go misusing those terms again to try and discredit what people say.

I used those terms to demonstrate my point, then you just accused me of being wrong and insane again without really saying anything else. It's like you don't even know what a strawman is.

But ok DLPB, you're right, no one else is.

 

[Masamune]

FFXII was a divisive entry to the series and split fan opinion. Therefore, if you choose to cherry pick fan reviews, like Mr. DLPB has, you could easily make an argument that it was the best FF evar or the worst abomination of mankind.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think I'm going to buy FFXII again just because of this thread. I let a devil worshiper borrow my copy during my sophomore year of college and never got it back.

Listen I didn't know he was a devil worshiper at the time.

 

[ForceStealer]

I wonder what he did with it...

 

[Max Payne]

One thing remarkable about you DLPB, is that your "arguments" are so browbeaten and contrived you make it difficult for people that even agree with you. I have always thought Vaan was a stupid choice for a main character. You could remove Vaan and the game would change very little. Or least make him another party member, but Ashe or Basch should be the main character. It's not really all that important though given that you kinda control whoever you want in XII, only in towns does it default to Vaan.

But your reasonings are just so absurd so as to make it impossible to agree with you.

I think a lot of FFXII fans wish Basch or Ashe had just been the main character.

At least it's not like XIII which wasted it's chance at having a strong female lead.

Strong= wooden and stoic even when trying to be emotional.

 

[ForceStealer]

I like Lightning

Stuff like when Snow is pleading with Anima to bring back SarahSerah and Lightning gets pissed and attacks it ("Like this thing gives a damn what we want!") I thought was pretty good at showing her mental state and approach to stuff...

 

[Max Payne]

I like Lightning

Stuff like when Snow is pleading with Anima to bring back SarahSerah and Lightning gets pissed and attacks it ("Like this thing gives a damn what we want!") I thought was pretty good at showing her mental state and approach to stuff...

She can be likeable at time, but overall I think she's a waste of potential.

 

[DLPB]

I was just giving you an example, that there are opposing views on this game, and you're wrong that it is the most hated FF, and that it's a bad game.

I am certainly not wrong that most users on metacritic voted it worst, and the other forums when I did a bit of adding up with actual reviews also showed similar trends.

As for bad game, again, only when compared to FF6,7,8,9,10. On its own, it is a reasonable game. But it is a FF game and thus it is compared to FF games. That's why most FF fans bought it.

A distinction should be made between how good it is on its own and how good it is when compared to its genre and to its series. That's the best way to compare games and unfortunately the review system itself needs some serious fine tuning, of which I have already designed an answer. Too many people give games a 5,6 or 7, when they actually hated it, because they enjoyed the graphics. If I created a review site I would force users to use a standard template which makes it clear what scores they are giving it for each aspect.

 

[ForceStealer]

So how much did you guys use Technicks in this game? It's like the forgotten corner of my License Board at the moment (I'm on my way to Eruyt and stuff). This is mostly because to buy the technicks is so expensive (in the store, I mean). Everyone has Libra, Steal, and Charge, but that's about it.

Is there one that would be greatly improving my effectiveness? Or am I fine as is?

 

[Max Payne]

I wish I still had my collectors edition of this game

I miss playing so much. It's been like two years since I last played. God time flies by when you're miserable.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So how much did you guys use Technicks in this game? It's like the forgotten corner of my License Board at the moment (I'm on my way to Eruyt and stuff). This is mostly because to buy the technicks is so expensive (in the store, I mean). Everyone has Libra, Steal, and Charge, but that's about it.

Is there one that would be greatly improving my effectiveness? Or am I fine as is?

I like Poach. Fran gets all kinds of cool stuff and then we are rich!!
Unless that's a Gambit? Or both? I can't remember.
I think I'm going to go do a hunt now.

 

[ForceStealer]

Poach was the only one that tempted me but its like 7000 gil or something. Is it useful enough to pay for itself?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Poach was the only one that tempted me but its like 7000 gil or something. Is it useful enough to pay for itself?

I've been playing this game on and off (mostly off) for literally months now and I can barely remember what happens in the beginning - but yes, I know that by the time we got to Balfonheim we were rolling in money, and then we went on a bunch of sidequests and got even more. I equip it as a gambit on Fran whenever we're just travelling around. Yes, I'd say it pays for itself quite quickly. She has Thief's Cuffs, too. I think a pirate's sidekick should be good at stealing stuff.

 

[ForceStealer]

How does it work exactly? Does Fran just have to get the last hit on an enemy?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Basically, yes. Your victim's HP has to be down to critical, I think. Maybe it has to be glowing red. I'm not paying that close attention, to be honest. But it doesn't have to be Fran who uses; I give it to Fran because I like her to have something special to do.

 

[Fangu]

Old thread, but PD'ing it because I'm playing XII atm. (I'm about 2/3 in, just reached the Archades.)

Spoiler: Story and characters rant

I agree with you Lic on the biggest problem with this game is that there is very much gameplay and very little story - as I said it in another post, "there is too much game in my game!" The NPC's have a lot of info, but with a "newer" game like this I require audio dialogue and playing scenes, and not just speech bubbles with text. I love all the little sidequests and grinding is really easy in this game, but I wish there was more smaller story related (or character related) cutscenes in between the bigger plotline cutscenes. NPC's tell me that Vaan looks like he's spoken for and that Balthier gets ticked off when people bump into Fran, and while all of that adds to the extremely nice subtleness about the game, I'd rather have the characters share at least something character related through audio dialogue or similar.

I can see why (things like this make) people say there isn't a lot of character development in this game. I think there is lots of it, only it's not spelled out for you and the game leaves a lot of thinking up to the player when it comes to the characters. Which is what I guess a lot of people call it a more mature story - you don't see Basch telling Ashe he's fallen for her, while I knew from the moment she slapped him this is going somewhere. (Which I guess it never can, because of rank etc, but it's still a very nice thing, because it is care, and it is love.)

Another thing is the fact that they let puppy love be puppy love - there is obviously something very cute and real going on between Vaan and Penelo, but it is teenage love, and teenage love is shy and exploring, like the two of them portrays. Which makes them a hellova lot more believable than say Tidus and Yuna, who looks 17 but acts 27. Which is what I sort of never cared for Tidus and Yunas relationship, it seemed to fanservice for me and not so much rooted in reality.

There is also hinting that two people in your party already is an established relationship, which is another rare thing to see in any storytelling, really. You rarely see the old marrieds without kids, it's always a) two people falling in love or b) two people with kids - aka they are more parents than a couple. So having two characters who's been together for a long time and have developed that important bond of trust and partnership that after a while takes over for the flirting glances, hand holding and noticeable sexual tension is a rare treat. When you've been together for a long time you can still radiate lust for each other, but it's this kind of mature, safe lusty feeling if you get what I mean which roots in "I know you're gonna talk dirty in my ear and get me off" rather than "OMG I am so taking you to bed exited aaaaa".

(That being said, Fran and Balthier could be anything really, they could be purely professional, purely professional and fucking on the side, having been together forever etc. It really doesn't matter, there's 100% trust and they are both 100% committed to going where the other goes, which can be both a sacred friendship or an established relationship, it really doesn't matter.)

The biggest character growth we see is probably in Vaan (he's really big mouthed in the beginning but learns that observing is more important than bragging - he's growing up basically) and Balthier (that whole sky pirate running thing), plus in Ashe who clearly has been a very protected person having to learn to fight for herself, and still struggling with it. Her becoming huffy with Vaan and charmed by the obvious cliche'd romance attempts of Al-Cid are to me proof she hasn't seen too much of the "real" world and the real people, probably having polite people speaking to her all her life. She has internal struggles of which choices to make, and she does grow.

The other three I haven't seen so much from, but mind you I am somewhat 2/3rd in the game, more rant might follow X) About Fran though - we do know Viera's leave their ways of life for several reasons; some do for seeing the world, others do to find true love (as Vieran male and females live separately). Fran left because she wanted to not be tied down by rules and live her life in freedom. (A woodswoman becoming a skilled mechanic is proof enough she's an ambitious person who doesn't want to know limits.) I guess there's not much room for character growth for someone who's already quite old and made up her mind about where she wants to be, but we do see her repeat those vows when she tells her little sister she must forget about her - and also tells her that living a life in freedom without your family is also living a life in solitude. Another mature storyline I can relate to - even though you find what you're looking for and you choose it, it doesn't mean you don't look back on what you had to sacrifice. But we have to live with our choices, and Fran chose to discard her family for a world that offers growth and excitement.

Spoiler: Game rant

That was a bit of ranting about the story and characters, which I find to be good. I just wish there was more of it The world of XII is huge and alive, more so than any other FF game I've played - VII is the only other game competing really. I like the Licence board and the Gambit system - no wait I love the Gambit system, it just frustrates me to hell that I haven't been able to get my hands on "Foe: Weakness [element]", if they even exist. Grinding is really easy that way, although the game takes A LOT of grinding. I do eventually learn some good spots for grinding, getting LP, EXP and money. I already have double LP and EXP, now I want double gil Because getting the stuff you want is really expensive.

I like how the weapons aren't just based on strength, but how they are good depending on a lot of other factors as well. Equipping Rods and Maces on magic users, for example. And I really love the 100% accuracy on the guns. Re: what to do with Fran, her best weapon is the gun, I have her kinda balanced with focus on boosting both strength and magic, so she can stay in the back guaranteeing damage while avoiding getting hit. I didn't really care for using her much before I found that combination.

I think my two most used characters are Vaan and Ashe. They've both got great stats. Vaan is a pure mage and Ashe do a bit of both. If I ever need a tank or hitter, I bring out Basch, he's quite nice to use as Decoy. Penelo is almost as good as Vaan but I've been giving her more protective gear and send her in the front with a good shield and a 1H Mace. She evades a lot of the hits and gets to do fair damage while being a really good healer and magic damager when she has to.

The only character I haven't figured out what to do with yet is Balthier. Apparently the gun is the worst thing you can give him. He worked okay with crossbows, but that was because I wanted to keep him in the back. His strength stats is pretty good though and I think he's one of the fastest characters, so I'm thinking of giving him a Katana or Ninja Sword or something else that can do combo damage, and then equip him with protective armour and send him to the front.

I really don't have a problem with the Licence board being the same for all the characters. They all seem to find their own direction anyway, and you don't have to buy everything you see. I however like to buy magic boost for the strength characters as well, because then they can handle their own buffs, and buffs is always a major plus.

The only really frustrating thing is that I can't see what kind of magic spell the enemy does by using libra. I have to remember it, or read the warning ("Monster x readies Fira") which is okay because I have time to go into the main menu and change my equipment for it. But it would be nice to see.

Other than that I don't have much to add atm, I think this is enough But I can honestly say I 110% love this game. It might be because I know more about the dynamics of FF games in general this time around, but I find the game really enjoyable to play and it might be my favourite FF ever. I've certainly never felt this addicted to an FF game before - maybe XIII-2, but it's still not the same. I've grown attached to the characters and the story and I want to see MORE MORE MORE!

So yeah hands down a brilliant game experience and definitely "my" type of game.

Also Balthier in those pants.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Fangu, I love you! You make me want to dig out my PS2 and play this game all over again.

I use the characters completely differently: I give Fran a big axe, and I give Basch an axe too; Vaan has a sword, Balthier becomes a dragoon with a pole or spear; Penelo has knives, because I think they suit her, and Ashe has the bow and arrows; if they're fighting a lot of aerial enemies I sometimes give Balthier a bow as well. Fran is hands-down my favourite character so she's nearly always in my party, but I also like the Basch-Balthier-Penelo combination. I abandoned the game last time while Reddas was still with us; I'd decided to complete all the hunts before he left our party, but then RL interfered.

One of the things I love about this game is that grinding is never a chore; it's part of the reality of living in their world. If you want to earn gil, you have to work for it by hunting and trading.

I also love the subtlety of the character development that you pointed out. FFXII fanfiction is some of the best I've ever read, because it can take those subtle hints and build on them. I guess I'd love to know more about Fran and Balthier's history, but on the other hand, I also like to read fanfction about them and a canon backstory would put paid to that.

Does anyone know if and where the manga is available in English?

 

[Fangu]

I also love the subtlety of the character development that you pointed out. FFXII fanfiction is some of the best I've ever read, because it can take those subtle hints and build on them.

Same goes for fanarts. Marcus and I was sharing some last night and my immediate response was "damn there's a lot of quality fanart from this universe." Which I love.

Does anyone know if and where the manga is available in English?

Should be here, at least the first 4 (how many is there in total?): http://somethingorotherscans.com/ffxii.html

 

[Jarlix]

Cheers on politely allowing new members the room to post without force feeding them an email verification. I felt obligated to put forward my own two cents on this game. I utterly adore it. I think it lacks a lot of things I consider essential for a definitive FF experience and absent the executive tampering or Matsuno's unwillingness to compromise I do think it might have fit the bill better, since I presume that's the gist of what happened.

The combat could definitely benefit from some added depth and the ZJS is the only version I can tolerate since it does away with the wince inducing uniformity of the cast.

At it's heart this is a smashing tale of six people who, contrary to a lot of RPG parties, have a reason to pull together and find a new home in sky pirating as they were all forsook by their own homelands or never felt they belonged. That's what I feel the story would've centered on more if there was prominent character to character dialogue and they reflected on each other more.

I also wish they used the parallel between what Basch is framed for and what he did to Gabranth at Landis as a red herring, play off of Basch's guilt to make it seem like Basch really did it when he only felt it was a fitting punishment for something else. That would've been an excellent plot line.

All in all, if you emulate eng ZJS in HD at a multiple of it's native resolution it's one of the most immersive worlds at the least. (I do own the original game, heh.)

Same goes for fanarts. Marcus and I was sharing some last night and my immediate response was "damn there's a lot of quality fanart from this universe." Which I love.


Should be here, at least the first 4 (how many is there in total?): (can't keep the link here 'cause -5 posts)

ah. Excellent stuff. Fans did a better job of the universe than Square did in some respects, yeah.

 

[Fangu]

Regarding the manga though, that one is actually official. The Japanese version, that is; the one linked to is a fan made translation.

 

[Jarlix]

Yeah, Square does a lot of them. That's why I was impressed with the find. I'll probably read it later.

Oh and the few good tracks in this game are probably the best FF tracks in the series, or stand tall among them.

 

[Flintlock]

On character usage: once you're at a high enough level, Vaan and Balthier have the best vitality stats, making them the most suitable tanks. Vaan is actually good at just about everything, which doesn't make much sense, but he is the "main character" after all. I tend to use both Vaan and Balthier against the toughest marks and superbosses (from Fafnir onwards in terms of difficulty, basically), because staying alive becomes more of a challenge than dealing damage.

Basch has less vitality than Balthier but higher strength, so he's more useful as a supplementary damage dealer while Vaan has Decoy status to draw attacks. I tend to use either Ashe or Penelo as my healing-focused party leaders. I make them run around a lot to regain MP faster - I hate that mechanic, but I figure I might as well take advantage of it. Fran, sadly, has a very peripheral role: I use her (and only her) when I'm running from a save crystal to the location of a battle, in order to protect my other characters. As much as I like Fran, she's the weakest party member overall. I once ranked all the characters on all their stats, and I don't think she was in the top two for any single stat.