The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[BlankBeat]

Really, the Barret stuff just needs to stop. His presence or lack thereof doesn't prove anything either way.

You may not find Barret's presence relevant, but luckily, that's just your opinion.

Cloud and Tifa (and Barret) could have gone anywhere in the world once Sephiroth was gone. You can't say "they're living together because they decided to run a business together." They were already living together. The business idea came later. They chose to remain together (temporarily in Barret's case) in the first place for reasons other than "they decided to run a business together."

I honestly don't know this, but after FFVII ends, don't all the characters (for the most part) return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them? Barret, Tifa, and Cloud were in Midgar when we were first introduced to them. Hell, Barret and Tifa were living together at the start of FFVII. It makes sense that those three, in particular, would end up together after FFVII ends (especially because Barret and Tifa were living together at the start of FFVII)

I'd argue that the business is what *KEPT* Cloud and Tifa living together. Otherwise, I'd imagine Cloud would have just been living in Aerith's Church.

Barret's presence doesn't preclude anyone else in the situation being romantically involved any more than my presence precluded romance when my brother, his gf at the time and myself all left where we were living before and moved in together. And that was kind of my idea too, because my brother's lease was about to be up and I suggested we get an apartment together. Then we found out his gf was pregnant the week before we were moving (we had already paid the deposit for our new place) and I said she should move in with us. She was living with her sister at the time.

So, yeah. Barret is irrelevant.

I understand that Barret's presence in the family doesn't preclude Cloud and Tifa from also being romantically involved. What I'm saying is that Barret's role in the creation of this family means the family alone cannot be used to *PROVE* a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Other evidence, besides this family, must be used to prove a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa.

Barret's role proves this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, or we see a typical behavior of what couples do (kissing, hugging, etc.) it is foolish to claim it is certain they are in a romantic relationship because of this family that was created with the help of Barret.

It can just as easily be assumed Cloud and Tifa are running a business together and sleep in separate rooms while they do so.

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its doubtable, but you are putting too much faith in a 6 year old. ok, so she asked for them to be into the family. how is this supposed to diminish cloud and tifa's relationship? i have never, ever understood why this has been pointed out. really, this is an honest question. why is this so important?

...but SE created Marlene's line. Do you really think SE would create that line for us to simply dismiss it because she's a child?

Cloti's try to dismiss and diminish the importance of Marlene's line for self-serving purposes.

-------------------

Typical behaviour of what couples do... you mean like living together and raising kids?

...one of the children is Barret's daughter, and the other child Cloud believes Aerith brought to him. Cloud also has his own room with a place to sleep in it.

None of this is indicative of a romantic relationship. Sure, on the surface it sounds nice that Cloud and Tifa are living together and raising children, but when one looks at the details, it paints a much different picture. Your analysis is simplistic and ignores key facts.

Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, kissing, or hugging, you are simply using circumstantial evidence that proves nothing definitely.

 

[Strangelove]

I honestly don't know this, but after FFVII ends, don't all the characters (for the most part) return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them?

how can you 'honestly not know this' when you tried to make the same argument months ago?

 

[BlankBeat]

how can you 'honestly not know this' when you tried to make the same argument months ago?

I'm fairly certain most of the characters go back to their hometown or where we were introduced to them. Regardless, my main point is that it makes sense Cloud, Tifa, and Barret (in particular) would end up together after FFVII ends. Barret and Tifa were living together at the beginning of FFVII, and Cloud joined them at the start of FFVII. So, of course those three (in particular) decided to form a family and re-build Seventh Heaven. This had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship, however.

Cloud and Tifa decided to continue living together because of the business they created (which was originally Barret's idea). It had nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship. Cloud would have probably exclusively resided at Aerith's Church had it not been for the business.

Luckily for Tifa, when Cloud believed Aerith brought Denzel to him, he began coming around Seventh Heaven more often.

--------------------

Oh, and does anyone have anything to say about SE building off of Dissidia, Tactics, and FFIX by having guards ask Lightning if she's searching for the promised land when she's wearing Cloud's outfit?

SE has repeatedly shown Cloud searching for the Promised Land, which is a reference to Cloud's desire to re-unite with Aerith at the end of FFVII.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You may not find Barret's presence relevant, but luckily, that's just your opinion.

Stopped reading the very second I saw this. Next.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm fairly certain most of the characters go back to their hometown or where we were introduced to them. Regardless, my main point is that it makes sense Cloud, Tifa, and Barret (in particular) would end up together after FFVII ends. Barret and Tifa were living together at the beginning of FFVII, and Cloud joined them at the start of FFVII. So, of course those three (in particular) decided to form a family and re-build Seventh Heaven. This had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship, however.

that doesn't really answer how you can not know (honestly) something you brought up ages ago. (although you've added the 'hometown' bit this time around, which is a good start)

why would nojima say he was sure cloud and tifa would be together ('where they belong') but exclude barret? why would he do these things?

Cloud and Tifa decided to continue living together because of the business they created (which was originally Barret's idea). It had nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship. Cloud would have probably exclusively resided at Aerith's Church had it not been for the business.

well that's just your (completely groundless) opinion

 

[BlankBeat]

why would nojima say he was sure cloud and tifa would be together ('where they belong') but exclude barret? why would he do these things?

...how does that prove they are in a romantic relationship?

 

[Strangelove]

...how does that prove they are in a romantic relationship?

i didn't say it did, but thanks for ignoring the question i did ask

 

[T@ctic]

...but SE created Marlene's line. Do you really think SE would create that line for us to simply dismiss it because she's a child?

Cloti's try to dismiss and diminish the importance of Marlene's line for self-serving purposes.

i dont think they are trying to diminish it. i think they are saying "Don't look into a 6yr old girl's sayings like the Bible."

again, my suggestion is that marlene saw the awkwardness of cloud and tifa and just invited them in. far fetched, but what i mean is that she is a 6 year old that invited 2 people into her family. it was childish and inoccent, harmless even. how does this diminish the relationship cloud and tifa have by a simple invitation to a family by a 6 year old? i dont get it. so if they accept it they arent a couple, but if they dont they are a couple? what do you mean?

and the other child Cloud believes Aerith brought to him.

whut the-

Beat, stop saying this. it was confirmed tifa was in on it too. this isnt an opinion. this is a fact.

 

[null]

...how does that prove they are in a romantic relationship?

Romantic undertones and common sense?

 

[BlankBeat]

Romantic undertones and common sense?

LOL

Yeah. Such as Cloud not answering Tifa's calls, living in Aerith's Church, having a bed in his room, fighting wich each other...

Oh, and Nomura not having a clue if they are in a relationship.

ROFL.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What's the point of that argument anyway? Once more, they could have gone anywhere. They chose to remain together. What does it have to do with anything?

And it's not even true. Reeve went to Junon instead of staying in Midgar. Yuffie went back to Wutai instead of returning to roam the wildlands. Vincent wandered off somewhere instead of going back to the coffin in Nibelheim.

I'd argue that the business is what *KEPT* Cloud and Tifa living together. Otherwise, I'd imagine Cloud would have just been living in Aerith's Church

Why would you argue it? And why didn't he do it anyway? It's not as though he couldn't have lived in the church while still helping out at the restaurant.

Is it really that hard to imagine that he wanted to live in the comfort of an actual house?

I understand that Barret's presence in the family doesn't preclude Cloud and Tifa from also being romantically involved. What I'm saying is that Barret's role in the creation of this family means the family alone cannot be used to *PROVE* a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa.

Okay, that's well and good, and fair enough. But who are you arguing the point with? No one -- literally no one -- has claimed "the family alone proves a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa." Who is defending that position?

Barret's role proves this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship.

How? You aren't being clear.

Just one paragraph ago you said "I understand that Barret's presence in the family doesn't preclude Cloud and Tifa from being in a romantic relationship," but here you say "Barret's role proves this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship." What are you getting at?

Is it that Marlene isn't there for that reason? If so, we know that. We know she's there because Barret was there and then left her with the two of them. Nobody has forgotten Barret.

Are you trying to say "the family that consists of Cloud, Tifa and Marlene did not form for purely romantic reasons"? If so, again, everybody knows that. Everyone knows why Marlene ended up with them.

What it sounds like is that you're arguing Barret being there proves any other adults in the situation couldn't be romantically involved. That is plainly not true, so what are you actually trying to say? Be clear and concise. Summarize your overall point in a single sentence if possible so that your position is clear. At the moment, you're being vague.

...but SE created Marlene's line. Do you really think SE would create that line for us to simply dismiss it because she's a child?

Of course not. Whatever it is meant to mean, you also have to ask yourself if Nojima, et. al. put Cloud and Tifa in a domestic situation where they are raising children for us to simply dismiss it because they didn't give birth to either child.

Their circumstances and all that talk of family was created for a reason. If you aren't making an association between their situation and a typical family, then you are overlooking the deliberate contrast and character explorations at work -- a contrast that the characters themselves ponder and eventually discuss.

Cloti's try to dismiss and diminish the importance of Marlene's line for self-serving purposes.

Please don't do that.

Luckily for Tifa, when Cloud believed Aerith brought Denzel to him, he began coming around Seventh Heaven more often.

He didn't start "coming around more often." He lived there. It's his house.

 

[null]

LOL

Yeah. Such as Cloud not answering Tifa's calls, living in Aerith's Church, having a bed in his room, fighting wich each other...

Oh, and Nomura not having a clue if they are in a relationship.

ROFL.

I'm using your standard of proof. What's so funny about that?

 

[Strangelove]

I'm using your standard of proof. What's so funny about that?

blank loves common sense and telling others to apply it, but doesn't like doing the same for his own arguments

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Blank Beat used Disingenuous Crap! ...it has no effect on Reality!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, and Nomura not having a clue if they are in a relationship.

ROFL.

Are we back to claiming that Nomura made a movie that he said conveys the relationship between Cloud and Tifa without actually knowing what their relationship is? That he knows she's someone koibito but knows nothing about her romantic life?

Please, BlankBeat, answer me honestly: Are you just here right now to argue for the sake of arguing? You're not being clear about some of your positions and not making sense with ones like this that seem clear.

 

[Strangelove]

i'd go and find the discussion we had about nomura's 'no clue' statement but i'm pretty sure it won't change anyone's copypasted answers

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

i'd go and find the discussion we had about nomura's 'no clue' statement but i'm pretty sure it won't change anyone's copypasted answers

Here you go:

“Shiranai” (知らな&#12356, which was used in the original text of that Nomura “idk” can also carry the meaning of not caring about something. Which, if he said he isn’t bothered about who loves who earlier, might be the sense he is using it in when he later references Cloud and Tifa.

それは僕の知ったことじゃない.　
I have nothing to do with the matter. ｜ It’s no concern of mine. ｜ That’s not my business. ｜ To hell with that.

そんなことおまえの知ったこっちゃない.
It’s none of your business.

会社がどうなろうと俺の知ったことか.　
I don’t give a damn what happens to the company.

「そんなところに(車&#12434止めたら後の人が困るだろ」
「知るもんか」　
“If you park there, the person parked behind you won’t be able to get out.”
“Who cares?”

そんなに食べてお腹が痛くなっても知りませんからね.　
If you get a tummy ache from eating so much, you won’t get any sympathy from me.

知らないからな.　
I won’t be responsible for this.

「しまった, 彼女との約束 5 時だったの忘れてた」
「えー, ぼくは知らないからねー. 彼女今ごろかんかんだぜ」　
“Darn! I forgot I promised to meet her at 5.”
“What!? Leave [Keep] me out of this. She must be madder than hell right now.”

頼まれただけのことはするが, あとは知らない.　
I will do what [all/anything/everything] I’m asked to do, but no more [the rest does not concern me/I will have nothing to do with it after that].

僕はそんなことは知らん
I will have no concern with such matters/have nothing to do with such matters/have nothing to say to such matters.

後はどうなろうと僕は知らない.
I don’t care about the consequences.

 

[BlankBeat]

What's the point of that argument anyway? Once more, they could have gone anywhere. They chose to remain together. What does it have to do with anything?

And it's not even true. Reeve went to Junon instead of staying in Midgar. Yuffie went back to Wutai instead of returning to roam the wildlands. Vincent wandered off somewhere instead of going back to the coffin in Nibelheim.

I said the characters return to where we met them, which typically happens to be their hometown. Obviously Red XIII doesn't return to the Shinra headquarters, he returns to Cosmo Canyon (his hometown), right? Anyway --

1. Wutai is Yuffie's hometown.
2. Junon became another base for Shinra, the company Reeve works for.
3. Why would Vincent return to a coffin after deciding to end his slumber?

You are bringing up pretty weak exceptions, IMO. But thanks for bringing up exceptions to the rule.

Regardless, you are missing my point. Barret and Tifa were living together at the beginning of FFVII. Cloud joined them shortly after. The fact that those three, in particular, ended up back together in Midgar makes sense when we consider the beginning of FFVII.

If Cloud and Tifa had returned to Nibelheim, without Barret, you might have a point. But for obvious reasons, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret do not return to their hometowns. They return to Midgar, the place we were introduced to them at the start of FFVII.

Okay, that's well and good, and fair enough. But who are you arguing the point with? No one -- literally no one -- has claimed "the family alone proves a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa." Who is defending that position?

Ryu has stated, over and over again, that Cloud and Tifa are living together, raising children together, and have a future together as evidence of a romantic relationship between them.

What I'm saying is that Cloud and Tifa are living in an establishment where Cloud has a room with a bed in it, the family was formed with Barret, and the two children are in the care of Cloud and Tifa not as a result of their assumed romantic relationship, but because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Ryu makes it seem as though Cloud and Tifa began this family and started living together because of their romantic feelings. That's simply not true, and I hate that he tries to make it seem as though it is.

How? You aren't being clear.

Just one paragraph ago you said "I understand that Barret's presence in the family doesn't preclude Cloud and Tifa from being in a romantic relationship," but here you say "Barret's role proves this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's assumed romantic relationship." What are you getting at?

It's very simple: Cloud and Tifa can be in a romantic relationship, but this particular family that has been created isn't evidence of one.

What it sounds like is that you're arguing Barret being there proves any other adults in the situation couldn't be romantically involved. That is plainly not true, so what are you actually trying to say? Be clear and concise. Summarize your overall point in a single sentence if possible so that your position is clear. At the moment, you're being vague.

No. I'm not being vague.

Barret's presence doesn't preclude Cloud and Tifa from being in a relationship, it simply precludes the family from being *EVIDENCE* of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Of course not. Whatever it is meant to mean, you also have to ask yourself if Nojima, et. al. put Cloud and Tifa in a domestic situation where they are raising children for us to simply dismiss it because they didn't give birth to either child.

Tifa didn't give birth to either child, and SE intentionally includes a bed in Cloud's room. It seems to me that SE is being very vague.

Unfortunately for Cloti's, SE has given us nothing that definitively shows Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship. The same can't be said for all other main FF couples, who have, on at least one occasion, been described romantically in at least one relationship chart.

Please don't do that.

It's true.

I've heard Cloti's dismiss Marlene's line over and over again because she's a child. But what Cloti's forget is that SE created her line for a reason; not for it to be dismissed. Why do Cloti's dismiss her line? Because it helps show this family has nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship.

 

[BlankBeat]

Are we back to claiming that Nomura made a movie that he said conveys the relationship between Cloud and Tifa without actually knowing what their relationship is? That he knows she's someone koibito but knows nothing about her romantic life?

Please, BlankBeat, answer me honestly: Are you just here right now to argue for the sake of arguing? You're not being clear about some of your positions and not making sense with ones like this that seem clear.

Nomura has no clue about the status of their relationship "after FFVII ends". This would be the time between FFVII and AC.

Then, he believes AC finally shows the truth of their relationship. But he never says what this "truth" is.

 

[Strangelove]

Tifa didn't give birth to either child

HERE WE GO AGAIN

 

[BlankBeat]

HERE WE GO AGAIN

Before people inevitability (falsely) accuse me of insulting families with adopted children, that is not my point.

What I'm saying is that Cloud and Tifa are raising two children because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Marlene is Barret's daughter and was left in the care of Cloud and Tifa because Barret went away after he helped create this family and re-built Seventh Heaven.

Denzsel is a child Cloud believes Aerith brought him.

It is a very important distinction to make, because Cloud and Tifa did not go to an adoption agency and adopt children because they wanted to form a family out of their romantic relationship. They are raising children because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship. Therefore, raising these children cannot be used as evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Roger]

I said the characters return to where we met them, which typically happens to be their hometown. Obviously Red XIII doesn't return to the Shinra headquarters, he returns to Cosmo Canyon (his hometown), right? Anyway --

1. Wutai is Yuffie's hometown.
2. Junon became another base for Shinra, the company Reeve works for.
3. Why would Vincent return to a coffin after deciding to end his slumber?

You are bringing up pretty weak exceptions, IMO. But thanks for bringing up exceptions to the rule.

Regardless, you are missing my point. Barret and Tifa were living together at the beginning of FFVII. Cloud joined them shortly after. The fact that those three, in particular, ended up back together in Midgar makes sense when we consider the beginning of FFVII.

If Cloud and Tifa had returned to Nibelheim, without Barret, you might have a point. But for obvious reasons, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret do not return to their hometowns. They return to Midgar, the place we were introduced to them at the start of FFVII.

The point was that Vincent didn't have a home. Nor did Reeve (and Shinra was destroyed). They were in the same boat as Cloud. And he only stayed at Seventh Heaven for a day or so, he was hardly part of AVALANCHE longer then Red XIII. It was no more or less a home for him then Cosmo Canyon. But Cloud, unlike Vincent or Reeve, choose to stay with Tifa and Barret. And they did return to Nibelheim. They decided not to live there because it only held bad memories at that point but they bothered to look so whatever implications you claim you would have accepted if they had, you should consider them. Cloud does not shack up with Tifa for Barret's sake.

 

[null]

What I'm saying is that Cloud and Tifa are living in an establishment where Cloud has a room with a bed in it, the family was formed with Barret, and the two children are in the care of Cloud and Tifa not as a result of their assumed romantic relationship, but because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Why does Cloud having a room with a bed mean anything?

 

[Strangelove]

Before people inevitability accuse me of falsely insulting families with adopted children, that is not my point.

except, intention or not, that's what you're doing. (again) by saying tifa not giving birth to either somehow lessens its meaning, you're attributing less meaning to adoptive children than to biological child. which you could easily stop by not constantly making that point every time you want to denigrate cloud/tifa

tifa also said that she though aerith brought denzel to her. why do you gloss over that? why did square include that if it's meaningless? (like marlene's apparent role as the arbiter of who joins her family)

 

[BlankBeat]

Why does Cloud having a room with a bed mean anything?

We never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, but we do see a bed in Cloud's room. It seems to me it can't be definitively proven Cloud and Tifa sleep together, which is what most romantic couples do.

Why would SE include a bed in Cloud's room if not to signal that he sleeps there?

Do we see the children sleeping in their beds? No. But do we assume they sleep in them? Yes.

-------------------

The point was that Vincent didn't have a home. Nor did Reeve (and Shinra was destroyed). They were in the same boat as Cloud. And he only stayed at Seventh Heaven for a day or so, he was hardly part of AVALANCHE longer then Red XIII. It was no more or less a home for him then Cosmo Canyon. But Cloud, unlike Vincent or Reeve, choose to stay with Tifa and Barret. And they did return to Nibelheim. They decided not to live there because it only held bad memories at that point but they bothered to look so whatever implications you claim you would have accepted if they had, you should consider them. Cloud does not shack up with Tifa for Barret's sake.

You are bringing up exceptions to the rule.

Cloud and Tifa's hometown was destroyed and rebuilt with actors. Therefore, it makes complete sense that Cloud, Barret, and Tifa (in particular) would end up back in Midgar (the place we found them at the start of FFVII).