The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[null]

We never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, but we do see a bed in Cloud's room. It seems to me it can't be definitively proven Cloud and Tifa sleep together, which is what most romantic couples do.

Why would SE include a bed in Cloud's room if not to signal that he sleeps there?

Why do you require definitive proof from everyone else, when your standard is common sense? If you're being honest, shouldn't you prove that most romantic couples sleep together in the same bed?

 

[BlankBeat]

except, intention or not, that's what you're doing. (again) by saying tifa not giving birth to either somehow lessens its meaning, you're attributing less meaning to adoptive children than to biological child. which you could easily stop by not constantly making that point every time you want to denigrate cloud/tifa

tifa also said that she though aerith brought denzel to her. why do you gloss over that? why did square include that if it's meaningless? (like marlene's apparent role as the arbiter of who joins her family)

No, it's not what I'm doing.

If Tifa had given birth to these children, or if Cloud and Tifa had gone to an adoption agency together, the children would have been a result of Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship.

But that's not what happened. They are raising these two children because of reasons that have *NOTHING* to do with their assumed romantic relationship. That's the point I'm making.

And it doesn't matter that Tifa believes Aerith brought Denzel to her, too. They both believe *AERITH* was the reason for Denzel being brought to them. But do you know what reason had nothing to do with Denzel being brought to them? Their assumed romantic relationship.

 

[BlankBeat]

Why do you require definitive proof from everyone else, when your standard is common sense? If you're being honest, shouldn't you prove that most romantic couples sleep together in the same bed?

All other main FF couples have a definitive romantic moment, or are described romantically on at least one occasion in one of SE's relationship charts. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

SE has been purposely vague when it comes to Cloud and Tifa because they understand FFVII has a love triangle. This is also why Cloud is the only hero on the FTOIL page seen with two romantic love interests.

 

[Strangelove]

No, it's not what I'm doing.

again, that might not be what you're trying to do. but that's how it comes across and the implications it has. you can change what you're saying now, but it doesn't change what you were originally saying (like how you originally said 'everyone went back to where they were introduced when that wasn't the case)

 

[Roger]

You are bringing up exceptions to the rule.

Cloud and Tifa's hometown was destroyed and rebuilt with actors. Therefore, it makes complete sense that Cloud, Barret, and Tifa (in particular) would end up back in Midgar (the place we found them at the start of FFVII).

Why should Cloud care where we found him??? Not just care but decide how he is gonna spend the rest of life based on that fact? And exception to what rule exactly?

 

[Strangelove]

All other main FF couples have a definitive romantic moment, or are described romantically on at least one occasion in one of SE's relationship charts. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

cloud and tifa have been described using terms identical to ones used for tidus and yuna, squall and rinoa, locke and celes, etc. not in some chart (the holy of holies), but still described in the same way.

why does that not count?

(because i'm sure it doesn't)

 

[BlankBeat]

again, that might not be what you're trying to do. but that's how it comes across and the implications it has. you can change what you're saying now, but it doesn't change what you were originally saying (like how you originally said 'everyone went back to where they were introduced when that wasn't the case)

What are you talking about?

Tres quoted this line from a previous post of mine:

...but SE created Marlene's line. Do you really think SE would create that line for us to simply dismiss it because she's a child?

To which he responded:

Of course not. Whatever it is meant to mean, you also have to ask yourself if Nojima, et. al. put Cloud and Tifa in a domestic situation where they are raising children for us to simply dismiss it because they didn't give birth to either child.

I simply said that it's true -- Tifa did not give birth to these children. If Tifa had gotten pregnant by Cloud twice and given birth to two children, or if Cloud and Tifa had gone to an adoption agency together, you could argue that these children are evidence of a romantic relationship existing between Cloud and Tifa. However, Cloud and Tifa are raising these children not because of their assumed romantic relationship, but because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship. Therefore, these children are not evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa. How is that offensive?

 

[BlankBeat]

Why should Cloud care where we found him??? Not just care but decide how he is gonna spend the rest of life based on that fact? And exception to what rule exactly?

So because Cloud's hometown was destroyed, Cloud had an equal chance of returning to anywhere in the world?

Cloud ended up in Midgar after leaving Nibleheim at the beginning of FFVII. To me, it seems logical Cloud would return to the place he ended up at during the beginning of the game.

Regardless, it wasn't just Cloud and Tifa that returned to Midgar together. It was Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret. Then they three developed a family together and re-built Seventh Heaven. None of this has anything to do with the assumed romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

 

[null]

All other main FF couples have a definitive romantic moment, or are described romantically on at least one occasion in one of SE's relationship charts. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

Can the same be said for Cloud and Aerith?

When did SE explicitly say that being on a chart is a prerequisite for romance?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I said the characters return to where we met them, which typically happens to be their hometown. Obviously Red XIII doesn't return to the Shinra headquarters, he returns to Cosmo Canyon (his hometown), right? Anyway --

1. Wutai is Yuffie's hometown.
2. Junon became another base for Shinra, the company Reeve works for.
3. Why would Vincent return to a coffin after deciding to end his slumber?

You are bringing up pretty weak exceptions, IMO. But thanks for bringing up exceptions to the rule.

Regardless, you are missing my point. Barret and Tifa were living together at the beginning of FFVII. Cloud joined them shortly after. The fact that those three, in particular, ended up back together in Midgar makes sense when we consider the beginning of FFVII.

Again, why does it matter where they are? What matters is who they are with. Barret, Tifa and Cloud chose to remain together. They could have even gone to Midgar and stayed there separately, but they didnt.

What is this "they return to where we met them" thing even supposed to mean? It has no bearing on anything.

And feel free to call them "weak exceptions," but if half of the team (Red, Reeve, Yuffie and Vince) is an exception to the rule, then there is no rule. You're citing something that does not exist.

And, no, Junon did not become another base for Shin-Ra. While Reeve was on his way to Junon, the remnants of the company's inner circle (Rufus and the Turks) were being kidnapped or trying to save Rufus.

If Cloud and Tifa had returned to Nibelheim, without Barret, you might have a point.

What point would I have? My only point there is that this "they return to where we met them" thing is untrue and irrelevant!

I don't even know what point I supposedly have here? Do you? Are you actually responding to what is being said or just trying to argue? Why do you keep attacking phantom arguments and phantom debaters?

Ryu has stated, over and over again, that Cloud and Tifa are living together, raising children together, and have a future together as evidence of a romantic relationship between them.

Yes, he has (that's pretty much word-for-word, in fact), but when has he ever said "this alone proves it"? He hasn't. No one has. That is the claim you said you are contesting. Who are you arguing with?

What I'm saying is that Cloud and Tifa are living in an establishment where Cloud has a room with a bed in it, the family was formed with Barret, and the two children are in the care of Cloud and Tifa not as a result of their assumed romantic relationship, but because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Okay, thank you.

Ryu makes it seem as though Cloud and Tifa began this family and started living together because of their romantic feelings. That's simply not true, and I hate that he tries to make it seem as though it is.

I can see why his wording looks that way, sure. He's just trying to say that and Cloud and Tifa got into that situation because they remained together, and that they remained together because of their feelings for one another. You're misunderstanding him. Again, no one has forgotten Barret.

Ryu is well aware that Cloud and Tifa didn't decide to start a family and kidnap Marlene, as is everyone else. The reason Ryu and others come back to the matter over and over, I would assume, is because the existence of the family situation was a deliberate choice in Nojima and co.'s part. Marlene could have been kept with Barret, whether in Edge or elsewhere, but this alternate family scenario was devised, and was devised for a reason rather than by accident.

You're looking only at the formation of the family from an in-universe perspective when what you're being asked to do is to consider its existence from a literary angle. Does that clear up anything?

It's very simple: Cloud and Tifa can be in a romantic relationship, but this particular family that has been created isn't evidence of one.

That's reasonable enough. Thank you again.

It's true.

I've heard Cloti's dismiss Marlene's line over and over again because she's a child. But what Cloti's forget is that SE created her line for a reason; not for it to be dismissed. Why do Cloti's dismiss her line? Because it helps show this family has nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship.

Again, please stop with the generalizations.

As for Marlene's line, again, no one has forgotten Barret. Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Marlene coming to be in Cloud and Tifa's care. The existence of the situation is why it is considered relevant.

Nomura has no clue about the status of their relationship "after FFVII ends". This would be the time between FFVII and AC.

Then, he believes AC finally shows the truth of their relationship. But he never says what this "truth" is.[/quote]

Ignoring for the moment that he actually said he doesn't care rather than that he doesn't know, why do you keep bringing this up if you yourself then turn around and say that he knows but doesn't say? For the record, in his opinion, he does say, but he's saying it through the film.

The way you bring it up over and over is as though you're saying "they can't be in a relationship if Nomura doesn't even know if they're in one." It's like you're claiming that they can't be in one if he doesn't know they are, but you then say he chooses not to answer in a blatant manner. You're being unclear again.

He knows. Him supposedly not knowing is not evidence of anything other than his lack of interest in the love lives of fictional characters. Which is precisely what he said in that quote -- "I don't care who loves whom."

 

[Strangelove]

How is that offensive?

right. look at at what you said, which i originally quoted

Tifa didn't give birth to either child

what i said was that elevating biological children (just like how you elevate marriage to the ultimate sign of a romantic relationship) the way you were is offensive to other types of relationships where these things either cannot happen or where they choose not to. the tone of 'tifa didn't give birth to these kids (so it doesn't count)' is what is offensive

 

[Roger]

I simply said that it's true -- Tifa did not give birth to these children. If Tifa had gotten pregnant by Cloud twice and given birth to two children, or if Cloud and Tifa had gone to an adoption agency together, you could argue that these children are evidence of a romantic relationship existing between Cloud and Tifa. However, Cloud and Tifa are raising these children not because of their assumed romantic relationship, but because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship. Therefore, these children are not evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa. How is that offensive?

Whether they gave birth to them or not they nevertheless decided to raise them together. In the case of Marlene, Cloud choose to return to this family and I feel he had a better reason then "this particular moment of my life is where the players started the game with me" and with Denzel he felt Aerith brought the boy to him after which he brought Denzel to Tifa. I feel that's an odd thing for temporary housemates or businesspartners to do, don't you?

So because Cloud's hometown was destroyed, Cloud had an equal chance of returning to anywhere in the world?

Cloud ended up in Midgar after leaving Nibleheim at the beginning of FFVII. To me, it seems logical Cloud would return to the place he ended up at during the beginning of the game.

Regardless, it wasn't just Cloud and Tifa that returned to Midgar together. It was Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret. Then they three developed a family together and re-built Seventh Heaven. None of this has anything to do with the assumed romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

That is simply not true. He left Nibelheim for Shinra to join SOLDIER. He however specifically never been to HQ in Midgar before. He spent 2 years with Shinra, then 4 years in a makotank, a year on the road with Zack, then he was in Midgar and after Tifa convinced him to do a job for AVALANCHE he stayed a night at the Seventh Heaven, Tifa convinced him to do a second job but **** hit the fan, Cloud spend the next few months/year again on the road. When the game made him to take mandatory pauses Cloud went to Cosmo Canyon or simply stayed with Tifa for the night. Then the game is over and because that's where the game started Cloud decides to define his entire life by the bolded part. You really think that's better then thinking he still has a thing for Tifa?

 

[Octo]

"Hey my dead girlfriend sent me an orphan to look after..... hmm i reckon i'll dump him with my housemate and go off gallivanting... it's what Aerith would have wanted"

 

[BlankBeat]

Again, why does it matter where they are? What matters is who they are with. Barret, Tifa and Cloud chose to remain together. They could have even gone to Midgar and stayed there separately, but they didnt.

What is this "they return to where we met them" thing even supposed to mean? It has no bearing on anything.

And feel free to call them "weak exceptions," but if half of the team (Red, Reeve, Yuffie and Vince) is an exception to the rule, then [i[there is no rule[/i]. You're citing something that does not exist.

And, no, Junon did not become another base for Shin-Ra. While Reeve was on his way to Junon, the remnants of the company's inner circle (Rufus and the Turks) were being kidnapped or trying to save Rufus.

This is what I originally said, "I honestly don't know this, but after FFVII ends, don't all the characters (for the most part) return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them?"

Notice how I say two things: they return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them.

1. Red and Yuffie are not exceptions to what I said because they return to their hometowns.
2. Reeve is not a member of the main team.
3. Vincent is the only exception to what I said, but again...why would he return to his coffin after deciding to leave his slumber?

I'm trying to make the point that it makes sense Cloud, Tifa, and Barret (in particular) would end up back in Midgar. Cloud, Tifa, and Barret ending up back in Midgar had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romantic attraction to each other, but is simply a result of not having a hometown, and the fact that Barret and Tifa were living together in Midgar at the start of FFVII.

At the beginning of FFVII, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret are in Midgar. Then, after FFVII ends, they end up back in Midgar. Makes sense to me.

Yes, he has (that's pretty much word-for-word, in fact), but when has he ever said "this alone proves it"? He hasn't. No one has. That is the claim you said you are contesting. Who are you arguing with?

Ryu seems to use it as a primary reason to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. I'm simply saying it shouldn't be used as a reason at all.

He's just trying to say that and Cloud and Tifa got into that situation because they remained together, and that they remained together because of their feelings for one another.

But all of this is assumption and opinion.

I would assume, is because the existence of the family situation was a deliberate choice in Nojima and co.'s part. Marlene could have been kept with Barret, whether in Edge or elsewhere, but this alternate family scenario was devised, and was devised for a reason rather than by accident.

Sure. It can be interpreted as evidence of a romantic relationship. But it's hardly irrefutable.

We all know SE understands this is a love triangle. So, they put Cloud and Tifa in Seventh Heaven together raising children. But these children aren't Cloud and Tifa's biological children, and these children were not adopted from an adoption agency. SE also shows a bed in Cloud's room.

So what I'm saying is -- the living situation and the kids are SE's way of continuing the love triangle, but not giving us a definitive answer. It could just as easily be assumed Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms and are raising these children because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Until SE gives us something definitive (a kiss, showing them sleeping in the same bed, a wedding, a romantic description in a relationship chart), all we have is our own interpretation. To me, SE has made the living situation and the family dynamic vague. All of this could be evidence of a romantic relationship, but it could just as easily prove nothing at all considering Cloud has a bed in his room, Marlene is Barret's daughter, and Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to him.

Again, please stop with the generalizations.

As for Marlene's line, again, no one has forgotten Barret. Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Marlene coming to be in Cloud and Tifa's care. The existence of the situation is why it is considered relevant.

I'm not generalizing. Numerous Cloti's have tried to dismiss and diminish Marlene's line because she's a child.

Bottom line -- SE intentionally had Marlene invite Cloud to join her family. Marlene's family already included Barret and Tifa from when AVALANCHE first lived in Midgar. Cloud and Tifa seemed perplexed when Marlene refereed to them as a family. Cloud and Tifa's perplexed reactions should be evidence enough that this entire family situation had nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Ignoring for the moment that he actually said he doesn't care rather than that he doesn't know, why do you keep bringing this up if you yourself then turn around and say that he knows but doesn't say? For the record, in his opinion, he does say, but he's saying it through the film.

And according to the creators, fans are allowed to have different interpretations of the film.

IMO, if he's showing us their truth through the film, that's not good news for Cloud and Tifa.

The way you bring it up over and over is as though you're saying "they can't be in a relationship if Nomura doesn't even know if they're in one." It's like you're claiming that they can't be in one if he doesn't know they are, but you then say he chooses not to answer jn a blatant manner. You're being unclear again.

He knows. Him supposedly not knowing is not evidence of anything other than his lack of interest in the love lives of fictional characters. Which is precisely what he said in that quote -- "I don't care who loves whom."

Nomura has no clue about their relationship during CoT. It's unclear during that time.

However, AC finally shows us the nature of their relationship, which could mean many things, depending on how we each perceive the film. Unfortunately, there is no definitive scene that tells us exactly how to view Cloud and Tifa's relationship -- which is exactly why they say the film can be interpreted in many different ways.

 

[BlankBeat]

Can the same be said for Cloud and Aerith?

When did SE explicitly say that being on a chart is a prerequisite for romance?

Right. This is a love triangle. SE has given evidence to support both pairings.

The reason other main FF couples have been given a romantic description on at least one occasion is because they do not have an un-solved love triangle. The FFVII love triangle is also the reason why Cloud is the only hero shown with both of his romantic interests on the FTOIL page.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This is what I originally said, "I honestly don't know this, but after FFVII ends, don't all the characters (for the most part) return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them?"

Notice how I say two things: they return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them.

Ah, okay.

1. Red and Yuffie are not exceptions to what I said because they return to their hometowns.
2. Reeve is not a member of the main team.
3. Vincent is the only exception to what I said, but again...why would he return to his coffin after deciding to leave his slumber?

I'm trying to make the point that it makes sense Cloud, Tifa, and Barret (in particular) would end up back in Midgar. Cloud, Tifa, and Barret ending up back in Midgar had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romantic attraction to each other, but is simply a result of not having a hometown, and the fact that Barret and Tifa were living together in Midgar at the start of FFVII.

At the beginning of FFVII, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret are in Midgar. Then, after FFVII ends, they end up back in Midgar. Makes sense to me.

Your argument only places the trio back in the largest city in the world. Not specifically living together in that city. What you're arguing here amounts to arguing that Wakka and Lulu living together after FFX isn't indicative of how they feel about one another because they're both from Besaid and "of course they would go back there."

Cloud explicitly says that he believes his new life will succeed because he has Tifa with him. Whether you see that as romantic or no, he is with her because he wants to be and because of what she means to him. Not because they were both in Midgar at the start of the original game. Not because their hometown was destroyed. Not because he has nowhere else to go (he actually has plenty of other places to go).

He chooses to remain with Tifa because she is Tifa. He wanted her -- specifically her -- by his side and says so. That is inarguable.

And what are you talking about with "Reeve is not a member of the main team"? Dude, just what?

Ryu seems to use it as a primary reason to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. I'm simply saying it shouldn't be used as a reason at all.

"At all"? You can't put characters with verified romantic feelings for one another in a situation where they are raising children together and discussing what it means to be a family and not think that is meant to be analyzed in terms of conventional understanding of "family." If you aren't considering the blatant associations of their situation with ordinary families, even though it gets brought up by the characters themselves, you aren't doing what the author is asking you to do.

If it were Aerith in this situation with Cloud, I would be saying the same thing: it's significant. Because it would be.

We all know SE understands this is a love triangle. So, they put Cloud and Tifa in Seventh Heaven together raising children. But these children aren't Cloud and Tifa's biological children, and these children were not adopted from an adoption agency. SE also shows a bed in Cloud's room.

So what I'm saying is -- the living situation and the kids are SE's way of continuing the love triangle, but not giving us a definitive answer. It could just as easily be assumed Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms and are raising these children because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Again, Nojima and co. didn't put them in this situation so that you wouldn't consider the implications, particularly when the characters themselves talk about those implications.

Anyway, do you really think anyone's concern was a fanwank love triangle? Was their concern not exploring these characters' personalities and motivations, and the larger real-life context they could speak to through them with this fucked-up situation?

As for the love triangle itself, it is not "unsolved" as you say. Cloud loved both women. There. That's it. It's done. It's resolved. What is left?

I'm not generalizing. Numerous Cloti's have tried to dismiss and diminish Marlene's line because she's a child.

Okay, but what's happening right now is that you are trying to dismiss and diminish the literary significance of the circumstances devised for the characters because of equally mundane in-universe details.

You're supposed to be thinking about them as a family and what that means, as well as it what it says about family in the real world. The theme of the film is family. Kitase (pretty sure it was him) said as much.

Bottom line -- SE intentionally had Marlene invite Cloud to join her family. Marlene's family already included Barret and Tifa from when AVALANCHE first lived in Midgar. Cloud and Tifa seemed perplexed when Marlene refereed to them as a family. Cloud and Tifa's perplexed reactions should be evidence enough that this entire family situation had nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Which everyone understands, I'm quite certain.

And according to the creators, fans are allowed to have different interpretations of the film.

According to one creator, who also goes on to personally offer multiple explicit answers to a number of things.

IMO, if he's showing us their truth through the film, that's not good news for Cloud and Tifa.

Which has little to do with the topic at hand. To me, it's as optimistic an "ending" as life can offer, which I can only assume was the entire objective. The idea that life goes on, with both all its troubles and rewards, not a promise of happily ever after.

Again, that's neither here nor there, though.

Nomura has no clue about their relationship during CoT. It's unclear during that time.

However, AC finally shows us the nature of their relationship, which could mean many things, depending on how we each perceive the film. Unfortunately, there is no definitive scene that tells us exactly how to view Cloud and Tifa's relationship -- which is exactly why they say the film can be interpreted in many different ways.

Okay, but we're not concerned with how Joe Blow down the street interprets it, are we? Nor the things that are so open to interpretation as to be unverifiable (e.g. what would have happened had Aerith lived, who is Cloud most compatible with, will Cloud and Tifa make it in the long term, etc). We're concerned with what the authorial intent was regarding Cloud's affection, yes? We have that answer.

If that's not what we're discussing at this point, let me know so I can get off this train. I understand your insistence on pointing out that the circumstances behind the creation of the family are not inherently romantic (a valid point), just as I see the need to clarify that Barret's presence doesn't preclude romance within the family (equally valid).

However, we all already agreed that Cloud loved both women. A number of us have even agreed that it can fairly be interpreted that Cloud and Tifa floundered through a prospective relationship that may not actually take flight until after Advent Children. If we're firmly in territory relating to the latter rather than the former, then I want off this ride. I no longer have an interest in discussing the finer points of unverifiability.

 

[null]

In related news, two weeks ago

Spoiler: Firefly Spoiler

Mal took Inara to bed in a manly fashion

. Even though they sleep in separate beds, fight constantly, and live in a fake family setting.

Nobody seemed surprised. Guess SE put them on a chart somewhere.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, about fucking time.

 

[Dashell]

That damn bed argument again. I really don't think Square put it there with the intention of telling us about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They were probably just putting junk in the room and along came the bed. It's as irrelevant as the tire and boxes in the room.

And do couples have to do coupley things 100% of the time in order to be couples? I sorta feel like this is the standard with Cloud and Tifa. That if they aren't the lovey dovey perfect couple ALL the time, they can't be a couple at all. Or if it's not THEIR kids they're raising then it can't be that they're together. All the good times are thrown out the window cause Cloud ran off like a dork.

I mean jesus me and my BF just had a conversation about snot... honest to god, snot. That's not something a lot of couples do but that doesn't mean we aren't one

 

[Roger]

This is what I originally said, "I honestly don't know this, but after FFVII ends, don't all the characters (for the most part) return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them?"

Notice how I say two things: they return to where they are from or where we were introduced to them.

1. Red and Yuffie are not exceptions to what I said because they return to their hometowns.
2. Reeve is not a member of the main team.
3. Vincent is the only exception to what I said, but again...why would he return to his coffin after deciding to leave his slumber?

No reason. But he wasn't born in the coffin. Nor did he live or work there. Whereever he did stay back when he was a man, he didn't feel a sudden urge to revert to type after the game ended as you imply all character should. And Reeve wasn't part of the main party but he WAS unlike Cloud actually living in Midgar for a good deal of his life. His parents even still lived there.

I'm trying to make the point that it makes sense Cloud, Tifa, and Barret (in particular) would end up back in Midgar. Cloud, Tifa, and Barret ending up back in Midgar had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romantic attraction to each other, but is simply a result of not having a hometown, and the fact that Barret and Tifa were living together in Midgar at the start of FFVII.

Yeah that's why Tifa and Barret return there. Although I would argue that Marlene residing in Kalm is perhaps a much stronger reason to head in that direction. But Cloud has his own reasons for going with them. It's his feelings that we are debating, remember? Not having a hometown is hardly a reason to travel across oceans and fields to a different city, that is also destroyed and thus doesn't provide any kind of quick sanctuary.

We all know SE understands this is a love triangle. So, they put Cloud and Tifa in Seventh Heaven together raising children. But these children aren't Cloud and Tifa's biological children, and these children were not adopted from an adoption agency. SE also shows a bed in Cloud's room.

But they did adopt them or Denzel at least. And it was a love triangle, Aerith is very dead now.

So what I'm saying is -- the living situation and the kids are SE's way of continuing the love triangle, but not giving us a definitive answer. It could just as easily be assumed Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms and are raising these children because of circumstances that have nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

What circumstances? Cloud choose to live with Tifa, he choose to start taking part in raising Marlene with her, he choose to bring Denzel to Tifa so they can raise him together after he believed Aerith brought him to Cloud. It's not like just starting staying at Seventh Heaven because it was convenient even, he had to take part in building the house and the business from scratch. He started his own business afterwards, but Tifa, Marlene and Barret's needs trumped his own. So where is his interest I ask.

I'm not generalizing. Numerous Cloti's have tried to dismiss and diminish Marlene's line because she's a child.

I bring up lines from Case of Tifa here all the time that you choose not too respond too.

Bottom line -- SE intentionally had Marlene invite Cloud to join her family. Marlene's family already included Barret and Tifa from when AVALANCHE first lived in Midgar. Cloud and Tifa seemed perplexed when Marlene refereed to them as a family. Cloud and Tifa's perplexed reactions should be evidence enough that this entire family situation had nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Marlene and Barret are not Cloud's boss. He is grown man that makes hisown decisions. Marlen inviting Cloud to join her family is not the sole reason he is there. He was travelling with Tifa and Barret whereever they went before Marlene spoke up.

Nomura has no clue about their relationship during CoT. It's unclear during that time.

Apart from the fact that I can't imagine you actually believe the Director has no concept of what AC two main characters think of each other on any level prior to the film, Nomura did not write Case of Tifa.

 

[Sprites]

And what are you talking about with "Reeve is not a member of the main team"? Dude, just what?

I think he means it as in Reeve uses Cait Sith as his eyes and ears to the team throughout the original game but he never actually meets the team face to face, Cait Sith is his puppet but Reeve himself, as in him the person never actually physically travels with the group in the original game. At least that's how I'm interpreting it (Probably not the best word to use

I could be wrong on that though.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Just wanted to clear up something that's been going around. Lightning Returns there's someone who says something about the promised land (looking for the promised land) Thing is I'm sure I heard them say it on the English version but I don't have Cloud/Aerith outfits for the English version (I have them for the JP version but they don't work with my English version), I was running around in something else, and I heard promised land mentioned anyway. It might be a different NPC though I don't know

If it is the same thing then I'm not sure it can be called a distinctly Clerith reference (if it happens whether you are wearing Cloud or Aerith outfits or not) but more of a general FFVII thing. On the other hand the Cloud/Aerith outfits themselves with the promo material of Aerith handling Cloud's sword and Cloud with Aerith's flower um basket, etc might be

 

[Splintered]

I've run around in Cloud's outfit and I heard something mentioned about a promise land (are they looking for a promised land or something to that effect). People in Luxerion will comment on whatever you wear- and costumes especially from other games get distinct shout outs. That said, it was so inane that I didn't even think about the possibility it was a Clerith thing. Really? Is that what people are saying? lol

That said, I thought it was really cute. I liked all the shout out things.

 

[ShiroiHitokiri]

Why people tend to overanalyze something ridiculous in order to support their argument.
There is plenty evidence in the game about both Cloud and Tifa, their character background and story together is more than enough to prove on how they can become a couple.
The lifestream even alone was enough to reconfirm TRUE Cloud's feelings and Tifa's importance to him,denying that its showing true ignorance since Cloud never denied these said feelings,at all.
As for Nomura,Kitase and the gang, do you really expect them to give clear answer when they clearly benefit from the LT ? They gave more than plenty of times hints about Tifa and Cloud being together, its not even funny.


You can overanalyze the beds, the chair,the sheets ,saying the pink color matches Aerith more or whatever you can come up ,but,do not deny the facts from the game, either you like them or not, these facts are there, Tifa was meant to be with Cloud since she was created,same like Aerith was meant to be with Zack.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just wanted to clear up something that's been going around. Lightning Returns there's someone who says something about the promised land (looking for the promised land) Thing is I'm sure I heard them say it on the English version but I don't have Cloud/Aerith outfits for the English version (I have them for the JP version but they don't work with my English version), I was running around in something else, and I heard promised land mentioned anyway. It might be a different NPC though I don't know

If it is the same thing then I'm not sure it can be called a distinctly Clerith reference (if it happens whether you are wearing Cloud or Aerith outfits or not) but more of a general FFVII thing. On the other hand the Cloud/Aerith outfits themselves with the promo material of Aerith handling Cloud's sword and Cloud with Aerith's flower um basket, etc might be

I don't know. Some cameo stuff (e.g. the Tactics stuff) I absolutely see, but I've never found this one very convincing.

Maybe if, at the same time, both Lightning and Snow's outfits weren't made available in A Realm Reborn I would be more convinced. Obviously those two were selected for cross-promotion and because they're the two primary main characters of FFXIII, which I can't help but feel is the thinking behind the use of Cloud and Aerith's outfits.

And that's without even taking into account Yuna, Locke, Setzer, Lara Croft, etc.