The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

I recall arguing something similar Yonks and Yonks ago. I was met with much resistance to the idea. Hopefully it might take root now.
A man can dream.

I'm stiill very opposed to the "symbol" interpretation. The notion that "koibito" applies because they both felt something (even if both didn't know it) makes the most sense to me in this case, but the "symbol" thing doesn't make even a little sense to me.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah I don't know why people are so opposed to the idea that Cloud had feelings for Aerith. There's more than enough evidence to back that up really. They both felt something, they both became close in a short amount of time, they both had feelings... they loved each other... hence koibito... at least in my opinion

 

[Strangelove]

there's a fine line between 'they both have feelings' and 'they're both in a concrete relationship' tho

 

[Shadowfox]

EDIT also, something to think about

Which would cause a bigger shit storm? If CoLW came out in English and it said, "Cloud was Aerith's lover" or if it went the exact opposite direction and just said, "Cloud was Aerith's good friend." or something along those lines.

"Cloud was Aerith's nice person"?

In all honesty, if an English CoLW did say "Cloud was Aerith's lover", I'd be trying to figure out where and when that relationship had actually come to that point in the game. At least in Tifa's case, she and Cloud had their heart-to-heart beneath the Highwind and they were already living together by the time we were told she was a koibito.

 

[Lord Kesharq]

there's a fine line between 'they both have feelings' and 'they're both in a concrete relationship' tho

Do remember that they can both have feelings for each other and not be in a relationship..after all they didnt really get enough time for them to offically become one (aka they didnt get a highwind scene lol)...given that someone kinda died..if only she had not hey.

 

[Dashell]

I've been thinking about it and I changed my mind. If Cleriths want to use this as proof that Clerith is canon, then... why not? I mean... TLS did the same thing years ago with the FTOIL page and we all had fun with it and rubbed it in their faces. And a lot of us did, don't deny it.

I say just let them have this one and then, in a few months when something super Cloti comes out... it'll start all over again. Thus is the cycle of the LTD

 

[Ⓐaron]

at the risk of pointing out the obvious I feel like noting that CoLW is written from Aerith's perspective in a limited third person voice. in other words, the narrator of the piece is basically Aerith and she may not be a reliable narrator

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Is assuming she isn't even reasonable?

 

[Dashell]

Is assuming she isn't even reasonable?

No, it's not. I think if Aerith said Cloud was her lover... we can believe her... I mean... she's not crazy here. If Cloud said that when he was fucked up sure, but it's Aerith. I don't think she's going to make that big of a mistake.

 

[Ⓐaron]

given that her narration, if it does say "lover", says something for which debatable at best evidence exists in the other parts of the universe, I'm not sure why it's unreasonable to assume she might be not be a 100% reliable narrator

 

[Dashell]

Well they DID go on two dates here... I mean it kind of depends on how you'd define, "lover"

Is going on two dates enough?... well, I think it could be. It's not saying, "Cloud was her lover and they had sex and made out all the time and it was super obvious!"... but if they went on a date twice, how is it so hard to call them lovers from that?

 

[Ⓐaron]

to me going on two dates isn't enough to make a person one's lover, not least because i've gone on more than two dates with people with whom i never developed anything serious. idk.

 

[Dashell]

I think it depends on the situation... Those two had a lot of chemistry. People can become lovers over one date... hell this is a fictional world, it can be love at first sight.

I just don't like the thought that Aerith was tripping here... it just makes her look bad, but.. idk maybe it's just me

 

[Ⓐaron]

obviously there was a spark between them but to me there has to be a conscious acknowledgement that people are romantically involved before you can actually describe them as "lovers", and unless there are elements of the plot that SE still haven't revealed, no such acknowledgement was ever made.

 

[Dashell]

Okay but how do they acknowledge something like that? I mean do they HAVE to kiss or say I love you? They flirted with one another, they went on two dates, other people saw it and took notice... for me that's enough. Just because they didn't SAY "i love you" or "you're my lover" to one another, doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

 

[Ⓐaron]

i've been on dates and flirted with people i was never romantically involved with, so no, i don't think that's sufficient. you don't have to make it Facebook Official™ or anything like that (although in this day and age it would be pretty weird not to, but obviously since FFVII doesn't have social networks it's not really relevant) but you need more than a couple of dates, flirting, and a couple offhand comments from other people.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, what do you need?

 

[Ⓐaron]

i'm not sure. some sort of conscious acknowledgement that they are An Item or that things are Definitely Serious maybe. the thing about cloud and aerith's could-have-been-relationship is the game very deliberately and cruelly subverts the player's expectations. the player plays the first disc of the game expecting them to become the game's Official Couple and then this is made completely and finally impossible when she gets stabbed through the heart. the rest of the game, if i am not misremembering, even goes so far as to mock the player's expectations by still selling items she could use if she were alive but, of course, she will never use them because she is dead. the entire romance setup between cloud and aerith is meant to be a suggestion of potential that will never be realised because of her cruel murder, which just twists the knife of her sacrifice in further. there was potential for A Relationship there, but what happened did not progress enough to qualify as one.

 

[Dashell]

Personally I don't think you need that "Okay now we're lovers" moment to be considered lovers.

I think maybe they are using the term a bit loosely, but they were lovers. They did things lovers do, even if they didn't fully realize it.

Honestly if someone was dating me and flirting with me... and I found out they weren't really into me... I'd be pretty disappointed



sorry this response sucks i'm tired

 

[Ⓐaron]

it's not like i wasn't into them necessarily. in most of those cases they weren't into me.

i should add, to address something mentioned above, that i have also been in situations where large numbers of people expected me to get together with someone (and in once case we were already confused as an item) and i went on a date with that person and nothing else happened. such is the peril of dating when a tremendous introvert i suspect.

anyway my point is that, given that i have been in all of the situations thus far used to describe cloud and aerith's interactions in ffvii and no relationship resulted, it seems a bit premature to describe them as actually being in a relationship.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thank you Hito

Spoiler

Just wanted to say that. I'm tired too. Been sick. Ughh cough. I might reply to other stuff later

 

[Shadowfox]

Well they DID go on two dates here... I mean it kind of depends on how you'd define, "lover"

Is going on two dates enough?... well, I think it could be. It's not saying, "Cloud was her lover and they had sex and made out all the time and it was super obvious!"... but if they went on a date twice, how is it so hard to call them lovers from that?

I think that's using a very loose definition of 'lover'. If we were to define 'lover' as people who'd gone out on dates, then arguably Cloud could be Yuffie's (and maybe also Barret's) lover, too.

Personally, I'd be hesitant to agree with that, because having a very loose definition opens the door to a lot of abuse (so to say) to the term 'lover'. Possibly to the point where being identified as a lover might not be of much significance.

 

[Strangelove]

i am only making a quick post from my phone to say/clarify

i don't think cloud and aerith didn't have feelings, but the level of relationship implied by using 恋人 doesn't really fit ffvii for anyone. if you were to boil it down to its dictionary definition of person you love then maybe it would sound so strange. or if you assumed that nojima meant it in the sense of 想い人 since he's a writer writing a book so he may use less common usages. but people assume things about 恋人 like you aren't just having nice romantic thoughts about the other, but you're actually in some kind of relationship beyond that. none of the supplementary material suggests that was the case, and seeing as it would be a major point in the story you'd think they would

that's why 恋人 sounds weird to me. maybe there isn't a better word for 'two people who have feelings for each other', or he wanted it to compliment 友人 by having another 2 kanji word. but it still feels strange, like calling that midgar park scene a 'date'

then again nojima wrote ffx-2.5 so maybe this was just a sign of things to come

 

[Ryushikaze]

Is assuming she isn't even reasonable?

Yes. All limited narrators are unreliable. Some unlimited narrators are as well. The question is to degree. While under most situations we have no reason to doubt Aerith's word, we do know that what she says doesn't jive with what we actually see of her and Cloud's interactions if she means it in the 'We were a couple' sense.

And I know you don't favor the symbol reading, but it is a valid one, and doesn't require us to treat Aerith as unreliable or reject the evidence of the events of the game. Likewise, the "He was the man I loved" doesn't do that either.

It's the "We were a couple" part that's an issue, because regardless of how you think Cloud and Aerith felt about each other, they were never a couple. There's maybe a two day Window where Cloud COULD have realized she was interested in him, after the date, but it doesn't seem to have happened, though he probably twigged it when she asked Cait Sith... and then the beating and the running off happened.

 

[Roger]

It really wasn't two dates tho. Taking a break on your way home and talking about a past boyfriend is far from a date. If you get Aerith at the Gold Saucer she'll ask if he had gone on a date before.