Really?
Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.
And unlike Celes x Locke, and Zidane x Garnet, Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all of their romantic moments in *ONE* disc. Just think if they had been given more time together how many more romantic moments they'd have!
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I don't see a contradiction between those two quotes and what I'd written, though.
I still don't see a contradiction.
All I'm saying is that it's pretty much irrelevant that Cloud wasn't his complete self during disc 1, and it's also irrelevant that Aerith was initially attracted to Cloud because of Zack. According to SE, Cloud and Aerith were able to develop a "special bond" **DESPITE** all of that. This special bond carries on between Cloud and Aerith *AFTER* Cloud regains all of his memories, and *AFTER* Aerith starts liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminds her of.
For instance, Cloud admits (after regaining all of his memories) to thinking about Aerith a lot. Then, in Advent Children, we continue to see Cloud and Aerith emotionally connected to one another. This special bond didn't stop at the end of disc 1, it continued long after Cloud regained his memories, and long after Aerith started liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminded her of.
And even though there were parts of the real Cloud mixed in with Zack-wannabe Cloud in Disc 1 Cloud, the final package is still a guy who is not the real Cloud.
But the real Cloud admits to thinking about Aerith a lot.
What is the real Cloud thinking about when he admits to thinking about Aerith? His interactions with her during disc 1 (ie: when Cloud isn't his complete self). Obviously not being his complete self during disc 1 didn't diminish the importance of his and Aerith's interactions because he admits to thinking about their disc 1 interactions *AFTER* he regains all of his memories.
Furthermore, the real Cloud continues to be emotionally connected to Aerith in both CoT and AC.
I disagree, because even in a Video game world, they still have to establish the characters and the relationship. It's still a story and should be fleshed out to make sense.
Considering the circumstances of the game (they are on a journey to stop Sephiroth and Shinra), and the amount of romantic moments accumulated between Cloud and Aerith in such a short amount of time (disc 1), it's very sufficient, IMO.
Hell, a lot of other FF couples don't even share as many romantic moments as Cloud and Aerith do, yet Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all their moments in one disc.
From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa. This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith. These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa, they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire, and a date at Gold Saucer takes place. Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married. All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.
However, if you are determined to say that two dates are enough, then I'd be interested in seeing a consistent application of this standard when looking at his other relationships. For example, Aerith's two dates with Cloud culminate in her admitting to not having met him yet, and him being perplexed and none the wiser to her feelings for him.
It wasn't just the two dates, though. It was all the one-on-one time they spent together after Cloud fell through Aerith's Church. It was the moment in Cosmo Canyon. It was the flirting in the Shinra jail cell. It was Aerith telling Cloud she wants him to take her on the Highwind. It was a lot of little moments that added up very quickly. And remember, they accumulated all of these moments in *ONE* disc.
So what about that one date he had with Yuffie where she kissed him?
The love triangle, according to SE, is between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa. Yuffie is irrelevant. Besides, the Clerith date is canon, not the date with Yuffie.
Or his night with Tifa beneath the Highwind where they shared mutual feelings for one another without words?
Cloud *wavers* between two heroines.
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But that's our point. We shouldn't be saying, "Well this translation clarified what Nojima was trying to say." or, for that matter arguing an official translation is FOR SURE what the Japanese meant when he himself wasn't involved in the translation.
This argument can always be made, though. So should we just stop debating because this can always be brought up?
IMO, we should be using the best information we have available and then come to an educated conclusion. The official French translation says "lover," and as of now, that is the best information we have available. SE hired this company to do this translation, therefore officially endorsing it. Besides, we have no idea what sort of behind-the-scenes proof reading takes place. It's very possible that SE has numerous employees that read and write both Japanese and French.
To be honest, it's pointless to bring up Nojima not directly translating this line because he doesn't speak every language on Earth. We will never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. So, uh, doesn't this Nojima argument just end the debate?
All I'm saying is that we should use the best information we have available. An official French translation is as good as we have right now, and considering Nojima doesn't even work for SE at this point, we'll probably never know if he agrees or disagrees with the translation. So if you're going to let Nojima be your standard of acceptable, there's really no use in partaking in this debate. It's an unanswerable argument that seems to be used to discredit an official translation that some don't like (not saying you in particular).
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Dude, I really hope it's yourself you're addressing in this, because no one here needs you to tell them. We (i.e. hito, Quexinos, Ryu, myself, probably others) have been trying to get that point across to you for a couple of years every time you act like an official English translation couldn't possibly fall short of conveying authorial intent
The argument that a translation can fall short of conveying authorial intent is an argument that can be made about any official translation, and seems to be the go-to argument when someone disagrees with an official translation.
My point is that official translations, considering Square Enix trusts and hires these people to do them, are one of the best tools we can use in determining authorial intent. The French translation of
CoT: White helps clarify that Cloud is Aerith's "lover"; *NOT* "beloved".
Honestly, there's no way to prove if the official translations do or don't fall short of authorial intent (unless we directly ask Nojima about every single official translation). So what's the point in pointing out something we can never find out?
It seems to me that when someone doesn't like what the official translation is saying, they say, "NOJIMA DIDN'T DO THE OFFICIAL TRANSLATION AND HE MIGHT DISAGREE WITH IT" to try and discredit what is being said. And although it is true, he might disagree with it, it's impossible to find out. So why point out something that is both obvious and impossible to find out?
, even while -- seemingly ignorant of the painful irony -- you tout a fan translation of that "engraved in Cloud's heart" quote around in your signature, ignoring the official translation (which was actually correct).
I've had that signature forever and haven't edited it. But since my signature has been consistently brought up, I should probably edit it for my own sake.
"But the official translation says ..." -- as though that's supposed to provide us infallible insight into the intent of the developers who could look at those same words and have no idea what they say.
How do we know a French and Japanese speaking man or woman working for SE didn't proof read the translations? We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.
Anyway --
Official translations aren't "infallible insight," but it's some of the best information we have at our disposal. Therefore, we should use the best information we have available to come to a conclusion.
Obviously, sitting down one-on-one with Nojima would be the best information possible. But that's never going to happen. So, official translations are one of the best tools we have to come to any conclusions.
It's like you're obsessed with pointing out something that can neither be proven or disproven. Honestly...why bring it up? We all know that Nojima may disagree with the official translations. But we'll never know for sure. So what's the relevance in bringing up something that is both obvious and impossible to find out?
It just looks as if some people (not saying you specifically) are trying to tarnish the credibility of official information they don't like by pointing out something that can neither be proven or disproven.
Are you really that unaware of the point has been made to you all this time that you actually think you are the first to say it and that we are the ones who need to hear it?
I just find it kind of curious that an unknown and obvious point (Nojima didn't do the translation and could disagree with them) is being brought up when an official translation gives evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith.
We'll never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. However, based on the best information we have available, Cloud is Aerith's lover according to the official French translation. Period.