The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

I immediately regret posting this thread

 

[Strangelove]

it starts out when one minute you're casually posting and laughing at the idea of spirit sex in a flower field, then before you know it you're shouting at a computer screen as you furiously type a 5000 word post about the logistics of having sex on a rocky surface and creating diagrams dissecting the faintest angle of a smile on a character model that doesn't even have actual hands

 

[Clement Rage]

Everyone is right. (Not snarkiness, I'm being honest.)

It's deliberately left open, so nobody can say 'THIS DID/DIDN'T HAPPEN' as fact.

 

[Blade]

I really think you should take responsibility for your own actions.

I'm not marrying you.


....But seriously, this is a sore spot for me, so sorry if I got unhinged a bit.

 

[fancy]

I disagree, Clement. There's ambiguity and then there's implication, and I reckon the 'Highwind Scene' is a clear case of the latter.

If Billy Bob and Sammy Sue have been through a time together, found themselves alone, exchanged some emotionally charged words that end to the tune of, 'Hey, you wanna continue this conversation but without the whole talking bit? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)' then get a fade-to-black, what do you reckon the artist is trusting the consumer to interpret using their common sense? That Billy Bob and Sammy Sue played themselves a game of cards of course!*

If we heard about Tifa and Cloud's story and they went by any other name, I reckon we'd all come to the conclusion that they are seeing each other or have at least boned once. But because it's Tifa and Cloud, folks go out of their way to come up with all these extraordinary conditions that have to met in order for them to be recognised as a legitimate couple and/or to have ever had a legitimate coupling.

"Well, I've never seen them hold hands!"

"If they're the real deal, why haven't either of them gotten down on one knee?"

"Well, if they're so in love, why aren't they always all over each other?"

"But you can't be missing one person and be in a relationship with another tho!! (???????)"

Oi!

I just find it so, so silly and omg is this happening, am I arguing in the most accursed debate threads of all debate threads? It was completely by accident but now I feel ensnared, trapped. As though I have to finish what I've started now that I've engaged and goddammit NO! NO! LET ME OUT!!

*'Playing a game of cards' is my new euphemism for sex. It really works, eh, cuz then you can say stuff like, 'Ho, ho, let's just say that we played several rounds of cards' with a wink and a smile and it's totally cute but also gets the point across.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah. I think the stronger Clerith argument would simply be that "they thought the world was gonna end, and that they'd have to fight to their deaths on their own, so it wasn't exactly a natural circumstance" than to say it's ambiguous.

 

[Mage]

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED IN HERE?!

 

[Clement Rage]

That's this thread for you.

There are two different versions of the scene, depending on how high Tifa's affection rating is. So how it goes depends on the player. I could see it being in character either way.

You might like it one way, or another. That's okay. But there's no need for anyone to start making fun of someone just because they have a different interpretation.

PS: I would like to thank TTM for providing the soundtrack for this post.

PPS: I am aware of the irony of me of all people arguing for divergent interpretations.

PPPS: I am not arguing from the perspective of shipping, I have no dog in the race of Clerith, Cloti, or Clukki.

 

[fancy]

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED IN HERE?!

I HAVEN'T A CLUE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE BUT I AM.
I reckon that the LTD is also an eldritch abomination and thus is a an evil that cannot be defeated.

Goddammit

Fuck

I wanna walk away

But fuck

FUUUUCK

Clement

What about the Ultimanias tho?????? Right, like, I can see your point if you're arguing that within the original game, because either scene can happen depending on Tifa's affection rating, either ending is equally legitimate for the player experiencing it. Which is totally fine, that's part of the fun of shipping eh. But canonically speaking, as has been proven by all of the information that has come out since the game's release, Tifa and Cloud played cards under the Highwind. And they probably kept playing cards well into AC and certainly afterwards.

I still cannot believe that this is real life and that I'm here, I feel like I need to take a bath now or sommat lmao.

 

[Clement Rage]

Game trumps supplementary material for me, but what does the Ultimania actually say? I don't know it.

My basic point is still that we can disagree on what happened but there's no need to skip to insults or mockery over whether two fictional people had sex that specific night or not. I could see it going either way, really, without being out of character for either of them.

 

[fancy]

Agreed that the whole back and forth that transpired recently could’ve been handled a lot better. We ought to have this sort of discourse without taking personal jabs at each other, eh? Oi, but I totally see and respect your point even if I disagree that supplementary material can't be taken into consideration for this sort of thing!! And omg, I am getting so excited because I feel as though we're coming to a conclusion all civil and friendly like and I just wanna shake your hand and secretly hope it turns into a hug as I bid you good day!! This wasn't so bad! I SURVIVED this LTD shit!

Oi, I said that bit about the Ultimanias from memory... but I had a look see and the section of the LTD essay on the Ultimania is here if you're curious. ^^

Right. Cheers, dude!

 

[Clement Rage]

Eh, as long as we stay polite there's no problem.

I'm not saying you can't use the Ultimanias, but the game wins for me in clashes. Supplementary material in general tends to suffer from 'we have to fill space in this hundred page book' so there tends to be a lot of fluff and weird/contradictory stuff, like Reeve's Inspire.

And, uh, wow, that was long.

Disclaimer: My fanfic born reflex is to hesitate to assume card playing happened, because a lot of fandoms tend to go 'he beat the piss out of him with a lead pipe, that's so romantic!'. The crux of the article seemed to be the connotations around 'realised their feelings for each other', which is used for other FF couples. But going by those examples, it lines up fine with a 'declaration of love'. Beatrix and Steiner probably didn't play cards in the middle of the smoking ruins of Alexandria, and such. I don't think there was a Squall/Rinoa or Garnet/Zidane card playing scene in game, although there may be after the credits.

I'm not saying anything specific happened at all, by the way. I'm just not saying it's necessary or impossible that the Highwind Scene was the High Affection one. I don't think there's quite so much thought into which screenshot is picked to use in the side materials beyond 'which was the most dramatic conversation.' The Aeris date is used in screenshots because that's the most plot relevant one at that point in the game.

Headcanon: Cloud and Tifa have a SUPER COMPLICATED relationships where they both have lots of issues to work through and go through a hell of a lot. The exact point they play cards (or don't) doesn't really change that. I could see them playing cards under the Highwind. I could see them just having a heartfelt talk. I could see a number of other things happening. Whether they play cards AT THAT EXACT POINT or not doesn't change the essential nature of the relationship. They're both characters that have trouble expressing their feelings. 'First Declaration of Love' and 'Card Playing' don't have to be on the same night, and it doesn't mean a relationship is stronger or weaker if they do one thing or the other.

Asides: So, Steiner has singlehandedly defeated Beatrix at some point pregame? Wow Rusty, that's badass. I love that relationship so much.

It was interesting to note how the love mechanics work. Like the Don Corneo bit:

Asking Aeris if she's okay triggers the 'aw, he cares' thought and increases her affection, while asking after Aeris while with Tifa triggers 'aw, he trusts me to take care of myself' and does the same thing. Nice touch.

I'm digging this euphemism, as you may have noticed.

Now, on to important things...

Spoiler: handshakes

As I see it, we have three choices.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not saying you can't use the Ultimanias, but the game wins for me in clashes. Supplementary material in general tends to suffer from 'we have to fill space in this hundred page book' so there tends to be a lot of fluff and weird/contradictory stuff, like Reeve's Inspire.

And, uh, wow, that was long.

Disclaimer: My fanfic born reflex is to hesitate to assume card playing happened, because a lot of fandoms tend to go 'he beat the piss out of him with a lead pipe, that's so romantic!'. The crux of the article seemed to be the connotations around 'realised their feelings for each other', which is used for other FF couples. But going by those examples, it lines up fine with a 'declaration of love'. Beatrix and Steiner probably didn't play cards in the middle of the smoking ruins of Alexandria, and such. I don't think there was a Squall/Rinoa or Garnet/Zidane card playing scene in game, although there may be after the credits.

I'm not saying anything specific happened at all, by the way. I'm just not saying it's necessary or impossible that the Highwind Scene was the High Affection one. I don't think there's quite so much thought into which screenshot is picked to use in the side materials beyond 'which was the most dramatic conversation.' The Aeris date is used in screenshots because that's the most plot relevant one at that point in the game.

Headcanon: Cloud and Tifa have a SUPER COMPLICATED relationships where they both have lots of issues to work through and go through a hell of a lot. The exact point they play cards (or don't) doesn't really change that. I could see them playing cards under the Highwind. I could see them just having a heartfelt talk. I could see a number of other things happening. Whether they play cards AT THAT EXACT POINT or not doesn't change the essential nature of the relationship. They're both characters that have trouble expressing their feelings. 'First Declaration of Love' and 'Card Playing' don't have to be on the same night, and it doesn't mean a relationship is stronger or weaker if they do one thing or the other.

It doesn't, no. It's really not significant at all whether it happened then.

It's just that -- when we are taking supplementary material into account -- we know it did happen there because their feelings were described as feelings that they couldn't express with words, yet it's said they did still express them.

Doesn't leave room for much else.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

My reaction to all this is just...

 

[T@ctic]

@f a n c y not to drag this on but i never understood the "they never held hands" argument when they actually do in the last seconds of TLS moment. it was clear as day in '97 and it's still clear now.

anyways not gonna get involved in a debate that's going to be declared irrelevant later on anyways. better to wait for everything to come out and then we can arm ourselves and prepare for the final bloody war once and for all.







who TF am i kidding this debate will literally never end

 

[Random Nobody]

Also, does it really kill you guys in the soul to "ASSUME NOTHING"?

yes! i am part of the dumbass wenchocracy and jumping to conclusions is my leg day. i do twenty reps of daydreams in every one set of speculations, and i love overthinking and being wrong also! i didn't even read anything but two posts of the last five pages, because i saw this one and knew in my hort that it was meant for me, specifically.

 

[Mother]

yes! i am part of the dumbass wenchocracy and jumping to conclusions is my leg day. i do twenty reps of daydreams in every one set of speculations, and i love overthinking and being wrong also! i didn't even read anything but two posts of the last five pages, because i saw this one and knew in my hort that it was meant for me, specifically.

LMFAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I AM CACCCCKLLIIIIINNGGGGGG THE FUCK UPPPPPPP!!!!

 

[Lex]

I know that people are having fun in this thread - a novelty to be sure, fun in the LTD thread is such an alien concept - but in the past strict rules were enforced here re: shitposting because well, the LTD is a cesspit of absolute despair.

I don't see a problem yet, just please be careful and respect each other. This thread exists in its own section for insane but necessary reasons (custom permissions for the thread and some users). People cray.

 

[Clement Rage]

Hmm, sorry Fancy, it appears I jumped too soon into the 'novelty handshake' stage of our relationship. I apologise for the presumption.

It's just that -- when we are taking supplementary material into account -- we know it did happen there because their feelings were described as feelings that they couldn't express with words, yet it's said they did still express them.

Doesn't leave room for much else.

Eh, that could cover everything from a kiss to a failed hand of cards because one or both of them lost their nerve. Plenty of options.

 

[fancy]

Never Clement! I apologise for never picking one! It’s the MGS one for certain! Blame it on the butternut ?

Can I just say that I appreciate your continued use of this card game analogy?

 

[Blade]

i love overthinking and being wrong also!

I'd love to know how you maintain your stress levels so low in that regard.
If I'm wrong for even 10 seconds I get a painful lump in my chest and my stomach bunches up in a knot.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think handling being wrong is something one gets better at with practice. Being wrong and realising it is the first step to learning something new and improving, so it's really quite exciting. Nobody is ever going to give you a hard time for being wrong and admitting it (unless they're wankers, which says more about them than you. I'd rather be wrong than be a dickhead). As part of my work, I have to be wrong in front of teenagers on a regular basis, so I'm hardened to it. Actually, if they can show me where I'm wrong, I give them extra marks, so we all win, I guess.

 

[looneymoon]

actual opinions: I hope the remake is more Cloud/Aeris heavy because I think it enhances the original story

 

[Random Nobody]

after actually reading, i have to say i always interpreted the highwind ting as their having slept together, but i remain unconvinced mans hit her with the ma'am may i please have some coochie right there on the cliffs and had her picking out pumpum pumice in the middle of getting supernova'd. they went up into the ship itself and came down again only because they liked the stars, and that is my head canyón because i refuse to accept they were out there on the rocks fuckin like mungo and them old thots from 10,000 BC.

I'd love to know how you maintain your stress levels so low in that regard.
If I'm wrong for even 10 seconds I get a painful lump in my chest and my stomach bunches up in a knot.

i am a med school student and was an engineering post-grad before that. being a wrongass dumbass is #brand, as is being completely immune to the physical effects of stress because at this point my consciousness just trails behind my body wherever i go like hungry ghost.

 

[Tetsujin]

after actually reading, i have to say i always interpreted the highwind ting as their having slept together, but i remain unconvinced mans hit her with the ma'am may i please have some coochie right there on the cliffs and had her picking out pumpum pumice in the middle of getting supernova'd. they went up into the ship itself and came down again only because they liked the stars, and that is my head canyón because i refuse to accept they were out there on the rocks fuckin like mungo and them old thots from 10,000 BC.

I think originally they did it in the hay in the Chocobo stable