The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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- AKA
- hitoshura
is this a thing? is this on that twitter poll? i don't feel like reading the comments lol
they could have asked me, i'm poor and need money
- AKA
- TresDias
Is that what they said? I wouldn't be surprised then if they're taking this post and plugging in all sorts of assumptions they have no basis for claiming.
Someone who used to be friends with me has a friend who has worked for Dark Horse. This friend of a friend did not work on the Ultimania translations, though. She was just aware that it was something Dark Horse would be publishing, and told her friend, who told me.
Big scoop!
Someone who used to be friends with me has a friend who has worked for Dark Horse. This friend of a friend did not work on the Ultimania translations, though. She was just aware that it was something Dark Horse would be publishing, and told her friend, who told me.
Big scoop!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
"If you look it up are closely associated with Cloti forums and Clotis in general" was the exact phrasing. I don't want to link the post cause I still don't feel like that's a decent thing to do. But yeah I have no idea where it's coming from.
I assumed TLS but I see it was "Cloti forums" now.. I don't know of any Cloti forums though so.... I just... I have no idea.
I assumed TLS but I see it was "Cloti forums" now.. I don't know of any Cloti forums though so.... I just... I have no idea.
- AKA
- TresDias
Well-deserved mockery aside, I do understand the recent frustration of some CloudxAerith fans. It strikes me that there is a degree of oddness at the very least with a number of recent translations that relate to Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa. The mangling of the OtWtaS "koibito" line in particular comes to mind, and there's a peculiar choice or two (or plain mistake) in the new Ultimania Archive from Dark Horse.
So yeah, I get it. Granted, those who have this grievance but are also still claiming I attempted a "character assassination" on the French OtWtaS translator (simply by asking her if she had any contact with or oversight from Kazushige Nojima) can eat my dick all day long. I wasn't discrediting her. I was discrediting the buffoons claiming the woman would have had access to Nojima during her translation process.
Anyway, the people who aren't psychos have my sympathies. This has been a bizarre time on the translation front. Which is unfortunately a perfect illustration of why I always advocated for working from just the Japanese texts where this subject is concerned back when people who hated doing so insisted that official English translations were all that mattered or that Square would make sure anything significant to Aerith-Cloud-Tifa and romance was translated to English and that it was done right (we can readily see how that turned out).
I can't say what happened here, but that "koibito" thing in particular strikes me as a choice that needs explaining. I won't accuse anyone involved with any of these translations of biased shenaigans for the time being for the simple fact that I don't know any of the translators. I couldn't say what their shipping preferences might be, and how inclined they may be to defer to those -- though from what little research I just did, it has been claimed that we would.
Do we know this Melissa Tanaka who translated the English OtWtaS and TKAA? I'm seeing claims that she's from this site or affiliated with us. Who the hell is she? Is "She's affiliated with TLS" the new way of instantly discrediting someone when it needs done quick? =P
Anyway, tl;dr: CloudxAerith fans have legitimate grievance, I don't know who the fuck Melissa Tanaka is, and some people need to stop pretending "I was discredited" means a skilled and efficient translator was being discredited.
So yeah, I get it. Granted, those who have this grievance but are also still claiming I attempted a "character assassination" on the French OtWtaS translator (simply by asking her if she had any contact with or oversight from Kazushige Nojima) can eat my dick all day long. I wasn't discrediting her. I was discrediting the buffoons claiming the woman would have had access to Nojima during her translation process.
Anyway, the people who aren't psychos have my sympathies. This has been a bizarre time on the translation front. Which is unfortunately a perfect illustration of why I always advocated for working from just the Japanese texts where this subject is concerned back when people who hated doing so insisted that official English translations were all that mattered or that Square would make sure anything significant to Aerith-Cloud-Tifa and romance was translated to English and that it was done right (we can readily see how that turned out).
I can't say what happened here, but that "koibito" thing in particular strikes me as a choice that needs explaining. I won't accuse anyone involved with any of these translations of biased shenaigans for the time being for the simple fact that I don't know any of the translators. I couldn't say what their shipping preferences might be, and how inclined they may be to defer to those -- though from what little research I just did, it has been claimed that we would.
Do we know this Melissa Tanaka who translated the English OtWtaS and TKAA? I'm seeing claims that she's from this site or affiliated with us. Who the hell is she? Is "She's affiliated with TLS" the new way of instantly discrediting someone when it needs done quick? =P
Anyway, tl;dr: CloudxAerith fans have legitimate grievance, I don't know who the fuck Melissa Tanaka is, and some people need to stop pretending "I was discredited" means a skilled and efficient translator was being discredited.
Chaoticgumbo
Lv. 25 Adventurer
I can understand their greviances for the OtWtaS official translation. However, I just don’t understand the greviance towards the Ultimania translation. Official translation or not, we know it’s love. Their mutual feelings are about love. And it cannot be something that’s ephemeral or fleeting because they fully realize the depths of those feelings (ahem love) at the end of the 2nd disc, which is clearly supposed to be a special moment for them based on both official and unofficial translations. This conspiracy hysteria is getting out of hand. But we all know that it is just a distraction.
- AKA
- Rishi
Its 2019 and shipping forums still exist? What???
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I seriously am dying at reading this drama.
What "koibito" mangling was there in the Dark Horse translations of the Ultimania? And who is Melissa Tanaka and what's she got to do with OTWTAS?
How is "being affiliated with TLS" some new derogatory term to dismiss any translator that doesn't support Clerith being the official ship?
...I feel like this the FFVII equivalent of FAKE NEWS now.
"Don't listen to SoS... He's FAKE NEWS. TLS? FAKE NEWS. Clerith is canon! Forever!"
What "koibito" mangling was there in the Dark Horse translations of the Ultimania? And who is Melissa Tanaka and what's she got to do with OTWTAS?
How is "being affiliated with TLS" some new derogatory term to dismiss any translator that doesn't support Clerith being the official ship?
...I feel like this the FFVII equivalent of FAKE NEWS now.
"Don't listen to SoS... He's FAKE NEWS. TLS? FAKE NEWS. Clerith is canon! Forever!"
- AKA
- hitoshura
melissa tanaka is my problematic drag persona, it was me all along
(i am joking i don't know this person i don't even remember what the english version said now)
(i am joking i don't know this person i don't even remember what the english version said now)
- AKA
- TresDias
It's not the Highwind scene translation I'm referring to. Rather, the one about Cloud and Tifa in the Lifestream; the one about Sephiroth taking everything from Cloud rather than someone he loved; and I think there was even one that phrased the Gold Saucer date as Cloud asking Tifa out?
Though that last one was probably an accident.
OtWtaS, not the Ultimania. It translated the Lifestream White passage as "Cloud was her friend. More than a friend, for she had loved him."
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Oh man...
That's like open declaration of war. Those Dark Horse translations would certainly rankle some feathers. And the fact they stated Cloud took Tifa on the date at the Gold Saucer seems especially like an open-handed slap. LOL wow. Wasn't the date Cloud went on always ambiguous? At most I think they showed Cloud choosing Aerith for the date in another guidebook or timeline of FFVII events or something...
And wow, I remember that story. And they translated it that way?
Man, being a Clerith shipper in 2019 is hard these days. LOL fuck.
That's like open declaration of war. Those Dark Horse translations would certainly rankle some feathers. And the fact they stated Cloud took Tifa on the date at the Gold Saucer seems especially like an open-handed slap. LOL wow. Wasn't the date Cloud went on always ambiguous? At most I think they showed Cloud choosing Aerith for the date in another guidebook or timeline of FFVII events or something...
And wow, I remember that story. And they translated it that way?
Man, being a Clerith shipper in 2019 is hard these days. LOL fuck.
We've been trying hard for years while you've been away to put this line of thinking squarely to bed but there are some militant hardcore people out there who hate this place. Not much can be done about that, so hey ho let them have their false anger
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I also understand their frustration. I think the amusing part, at least for me, isn't that "lol their ship stuff got translated wrong" but just that for years there were arguments about how only English translations mattered. Even in this very thread, we had to "disprove" that Nojima wasn't involved in the French translations. I still remember the words "official translations" coming up over and over. Tifa's koibito line and Tifa being a mother to Cloud come to mind. So I understand it cause I've been through it
But then these come out and I'm sorry but it's ironic as fuck. NOW English translations are garbage and there's a huge Cloti conspiracy going on.
I wonder though, if it was possible to get a hold of the French gal from OTWTAS, how hard would finding the English person be? Maybe we can ask why she translated it that way.
But then these come out and I'm sorry but it's ironic as fuck.
NOW English translations are garbage and there's a huge Cloti conspiracy going on. I wonder though, if it was possible to get a hold of the French gal from OTWTAS, how hard would finding the English person be? Maybe we can ask why she translated it that way.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
What's the big issue with that translation? It may not use the specific words "for he was her beloved/("koibito")", but it is essentially saying the same thing.
Oh and it's easy enough to find the English translator, Melissa Tanaka, The Lifestream twitter already follows her twitter account: https://twitter.com/melissatanaka/
Here is her LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissatanaka/
And her official site with contact info: http://www.melissatanaka.com/projects.html email: [email protected]
She's also translated the Kingdom Hearts novelizations
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- AKA
- Ite
ALL DATES CANON the Gondola reeked of bleach and feet by the night’s end. The only thing that interrupted THESE fireworks was Cloud running to another date like an Archie comic. He loved everyone with his mind, heart, and pixelated p3n0r, and it was fully reciprocated by everyone.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Wasn't it the consensus on here though that "beloved" was the more appropriate/accurate translation for 'koibito" though? A term that could imply one-way or two-way/reciprocal depending on the context (and that the OtWtaS context was likely a one-way context/usage)? Also didn't the German edition use a similarly contextually ambiguous term for its translation?
The only real issue I see with the English OtWtaS translation is that it used phrasing that isn't possible to interpret as ambiguously as others, not that it's misrepresenting the meaning and context itself?
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- AKA
- hitoshura
honestly i feel kind of sorry for anyone who has to take on these projects and then get your work nitpicked over this one little aspect
but with the main works themselves, the games or novels or what have you, i think there's space to interpret things in multiple ways and that's compounded by it having to be translated. maybe in the process of moving from one language to another you lose elements for one possible interpretation but another arises. how to you look at interpretations not based on the original source? is it still valid if you can't back it up the same way with the original text? is it wrong if a translation used one possible interpretation over another?
it comes across as elitist to say that you can't really understand something if you don't know the original's language, but also yeah. it's kinda true. translating will probably always mean something getting lost along the way, whether linguistically or culturally. it's not going to be the exact same experience, even if you can make it close or use equivalent replacements. i am of the opinion that in terms of interpretations, the original text is on top and derivatives are second best. and that sort of sucks, i can't make my definitive hot takes on films in korean or italian books because i have to go through another language to understand and maybe someone who knows korean/italian can pick holes in them. learning korean/italian/anything is a big investment of time and effort that not everyone can or wants to undertake. but that's the same as any speciality.
i thought i had a point going in, but as i wrote i lost track of it. i guess to try and salvage it, there's the technical critique of translation, and the interpretation of a piece of art and they can both be at play. i just find the apparent stance that there's one interpretation of a text, just one right answer (barring clear mistakes such as the original ffvii's 'illusory crimes against sephiroth'), boring and limiting.
also i remember what was said about koi bito you think i'd just forget i swear to god don't test me
in some cases, i think fans over-analyse some of this stuff. i don't think source books or compendiums like ultimanias that are meant as supplementary texts to the main work (often just recapping what happens or adding some additional explanation) require deep readings to get to the bottom to and it gets silly to pour over individual lines to work out just what it's really meant to be saying. putting aside the issues with translating from one language to another, i think most of these books are relatively straight-forward and don't require the reader to piece stuff together to understand.
but with the main works themselves, the games or novels or what have you, i think there's space to interpret things in multiple ways and that's compounded by it having to be translated. maybe in the process of moving from one language to another you lose elements for one possible interpretation but another arises. how to you look at interpretations not based on the original source? is it still valid if you can't back it up the same way with the original text? is it wrong if a translation used one possible interpretation over another?
it comes across as elitist to say that you can't really understand something if you don't know the original's language, but also yeah. it's kinda true. translating will probably always mean something getting lost along the way, whether linguistically or culturally. it's not going to be the exact same experience, even if you can make it close or use equivalent replacements. i am of the opinion that in terms of interpretations, the original text is on top and derivatives are second best. and that sort of sucks, i can't make my definitive hot takes on films in korean or italian books because i have to go through another language to understand and maybe someone who knows korean/italian can pick holes in them. learning korean/italian/anything is a big investment of time and effort that not everyone can or wants to undertake. but that's the same as any speciality.
i thought i had a point going in, but as i wrote i lost track of it. i guess to try and salvage it, there's the technical critique of translation, and the interpretation of a piece of art and they can both be at play. i just find the apparent stance that there's one interpretation of a text, just one right answer (barring clear mistakes such as the original ffvii's 'illusory crimes against sephiroth'), boring and limiting.
also i remember what was said about koi bito you think i'd just forget i swear to god don't test me
Chaoticgumbo
Lv. 25 Adventurer
I see. No wonder Clerith shippers have been so salty and paranoid haha. While I do feel for the Clerith shippers who don’t partake in the toxicity of the ship wars, I can’t help but feel what goes around comes around, especially with their assaults on the integrity of the TLS translations because it doesn’t fit their shipping narrative and their previous declarations of accepting only official translations.
- AKA
- hitoshura
i want to retell the classic bts story of tls' translation of that chapter of the book now that mako is here again, because he was involved in it as a sort of proof reader/editor
my original draft used the word 'sweetheart' as a tongue-in-cheek reference to the contentious reunion files quote (although i didn't intend to necessary keep it as that). i was against using the word 'lover' because to me, that has more elicit connotations (adulterous, sexual) that 恋人 would. i think it was mako who suggested 'beloved', which i like better because it doesn't have the connotations of 'lover'.
whether you want to read it as two- or one-sided is down to how you want to interpret the text. as a term, 恋人 implies a mutual relationship in its everyday usage but literally it is just a person someone loves. so in the strictest sense, it can be one-sided but nowadays tends to be used to mean people in a mutual relationship.
こい‐びと〔こひ‐〕【恋人】
恋しく思う相手。普通、相思相愛の間柄にいう。「恋人にあう」「恋人ができる」
[用法]恋人・愛人――「恋人」は恋しいと思っている相手で、多く相思相愛の間柄についていうが、片思いの場合にも使うことがある。「スクリーンの恋人」
koibito
Another person one loves. Normally, said of a mutual romantic relationship. "to meet one's lover" "to get a lover"
[Usage] koibito, aijin -- koibito is another person one loves, and is often said of a mutual romantic relationship, but is also be used in cases of one-sided love. "Lover on the screen" [omitted usage notes on 'aijin']
(デジタル大辞泉/Digital Daijisen)
こいびと【恋人】
恋しく思う人。相思の間柄にある、相手方。
koibito
A person one loves. The other person in a mutual romantic relationship.
(大辞林 第三版/Daijirin 3rd Edition)
こい‐びと こひ‥【恋人】
〘名〙 その人が恋しく思っている相手。現代では特に、お互いに恋しく思い合っている場合の相手をいう。恋愛の相手。愛人。情人。おもいびと。
koibito
[noun] The other person who the person loves. In the present day in particular, it refers to the other person in cases where they love each other. Romantic partner. [omitted synonyms]
(精選版 日本国語大辞典/Nihon Kokugo Daijiten, Select Edition)
i had a dvd copy of the kojien, which is like the oxford english dictionary of japanese, but i don't know where it is now but apparently it gives the same basic definition
恋しく思う相手。普通、相思相愛の間柄にいう。「恋人にあう」「恋人ができる」
[用法]恋人・愛人――「恋人」は恋しいと思っている相手で、多く相思相愛の間柄についていうが、片思いの場合にも使うことがある。「スクリーンの恋人」
koibito
Another person one loves. Normally, said of a mutual romantic relationship. "to meet one's lover" "to get a lover"
[Usage] koibito, aijin -- koibito is another person one loves, and is often said of a mutual romantic relationship, but is also be used in cases of one-sided love. "Lover on the screen" [omitted usage notes on 'aijin']
(デジタル大辞泉/Digital Daijisen)
こいびと【恋人】
恋しく思う人。相思の間柄にある、相手方。
koibito
A person one loves. The other person in a mutual romantic relationship.
(大辞林 第三版/Daijirin 3rd Edition)
こい‐びと こひ‥【恋人】
〘名〙 その人が恋しく思っている相手。現代では特に、お互いに恋しく思い合っている場合の相手をいう。恋愛の相手。愛人。情人。おもいびと。
koibito
[noun] The other person who the person loves. In the present day in particular, it refers to the other person in cases where they love each other. Romantic partner. [omitted synonyms]
(精選版 日本国語大辞典/Nihon Kokugo Daijiten, Select Edition)
i had a dvd copy of the kojien, which is like the oxford english dictionary of japanese, but i don't know where it is now but apparently it gives the same basic definition
so technically it doesn't essentially mean a requited relationship, but the way it's used nowadays you'd assume that it's someone in a relationship (dating and not more established relationships like marriage).
case of lifestream white is told from aerith's perspective and doesn't portray things beyond her knowledge or pov. so do you read that accurséd passage as aerith's thoughts, her feelings on things, or as a factual description? do you infer cloud's feelings and the nature of their relationship from the line?
idk, it's up to you. isn't literature fun.
Wasn't the word used in the german translation the same as 'beloved' tho? I think it makes sense to consider the koibito line from Aerith as a statment from her point of view since I think it would be kinda far fetched to call Cloud her lover. That being said I do believe he had feelings for both chicks.
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