The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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Dashell

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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Lol... IIRC i translated something as faint, young love instead of faint AND ALSO young love and it was a big deal. I didnt ackowledge a ku so clearly I didnt know Japanese or something
 

Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
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Johnny
The game (not counting any flashbacks) takes place over the course of what (I know video games cheat with time) seems to be some three months or so.

You want to tell me you know exactly how Tifa and Cloud's relationship plays out, EVEN INCLUDING the year fast forward and anything in between it and Advent Children?

Love is a lifetime of accepting another person's failings and forgiving them repeatedly for failing to meet your expectations. A literal LIFETIME. Stop it. Please just stop. You are all oversimplifying the concept of love to the point where it is causing me actual nausea.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
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Ite
But certainly media waters down the
You are all oversimplifying the concept of love to the point where it is causing me actual nausea.

Says the person who has a very specific definition of it. Not to mention a specifically cynical one. Why can't love be simple, in its season? Love can be both the vibrant colors of a newly blossomed flower AND the toil of planting seeds, you know?
 

Nandemoyasan

Standing guard
AKA
Johnny
Says the person who has a very specific definition of it.

Mine is based on lots of reading and experience, having gotten married and divorced and currently in a relationship as well. Plus, let's start trying to define love. You may as well say "describe the nature of the universe. Be brief." For that matter, I have not recounted my entire definition of it, but simply put forth one aspect of it which this entire debate utterly ignores.

Not to mention a specifically cynical one. Why can't love be simple, in its season? Love can be both the vibrant colors of a newly blossomed flower AND the toil of planting seeds, you know?

Because I am not 16 anymore, and I don't want to remain in the mentality of a 16 year old forever. I have grown well beyond that, and if you want to go listen to the songs I've written (I can link you through a DM so's not to shamelessly self-promote), and tell me I haven't struggled with and learned about this concept, I welcome the criticism.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
where is this coming from following a tongue-in-cheek discussion about old translation debates.
For realz. What the fook, yo.

For that matter, I have not recounted my entire definition of it, but simply put forth one aspect of it which this entire debate utterly ignores.
"Entire debate."

Sounds like you've actually read very little of it, at least as it was discussed around here.

Nande said:
Because I am not 16 anymore, and I don't want to remain in the mentality of a 16 year old forever. I have grown well beyond that, and if you want to go listen to the songs I've written (I can link you through a DM so's not to shamelessly self-promote), and tell me I haven't struggled with and learned about this concept, I welcome the criticism.

To be fair, there's sometimes another mentality to come after the post-16 epoch. After learning that romantic love isn't just sugar and rainbows, occasionally one learns that it doesn't just have to be blood and sweat either.

None of us here are 16 anymore. I'm literally double that age myself, and I've experienced a lot as well. I'm currently in my longest running romantic relationship (6 and a half years; second and third longest were 5 and a half, then 3 respectively), and sprinkled throughout the past 16 years are numerous other shorter relationships that may have lasted anywhere from a few weeks to six months (in case you give yourself a headache adding these up, understand there was overlap between many of these and the long relationships).

I don’t feel that "Love is a lifetime of accepting another person's failings and forgiving them repeatedly for failing to meet your expectations" is necessarily an incorrect statement (the notion has certainly played a role in my experiences, and there have been periods where that role was prominent), but I'm not sure I would highlight it as the core facet of romantic love either, as you seemingly have done here -- though perhaps that wasn't your intent?

If this isn't what you intended, however, that raises the question of what notion you are raising, and in contrast to what from this debate's sordid history you are setting it. As things stand, you've not really said anything that hasn't been said before, with the exception of the apparent -- albeit possibly unintended -- suggestion that love is about being disappointed, forgiving, and then doing it over again until you die.

Hopefully those times become fewer and more far between with the passage of time and growth of understanding.

Now, if this was your intended suggestion, it hasn't come across because the point has been made many times while your comment is set up in contrast to "this entire debate," which you assert "utterly ignores" your intended message. The implication being then that something like "Hopefully those times become fewer and more far between with the passage of time and growth of understanding" isn't what you're trying to get across.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
What-Is-Love-Jim-Carrey-Edition.gif
 

Dashell

SMILE!
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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I'm kinda curious about this... it looks like it's saying Sephiroth robbed Cloud of his loved one...

AcGDyji.png


Just wondering your guy's thoughts....

Cause I wanna get discussion going since I'm interested again :awesome:
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Yeah, it's highlighting some of the significant moments and points of reference between Sephiroth and Cloud to emphasize the poignancy claimed in the second sentence. So you get something like this (hard not to make it clunky sounding in English while preserving the original structure of the sentence):

"Idolization in boyhood; the enemy who stole a loved one/someone he loved*; and then the Reunion of his mother's body -- Sephiroth. Cloud's battle cannot end until he faces he who was destined to become the planet's adversary, one on one."

*"his loved one" would also be valid here
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yeah that is clunky lol... But it works. And the word used is aisuru right? Wasn't that on the FTOIL page?



Do we finally have some proof that Cloud loved Aerith romantically?
 

Dashell

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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh really?....i guess last i checked in people were saying there was no evidence of it. Also the "there seems to be something between [Cloud and Aerith]" quote was found too so...



Idk I was hoping I could get people talking again. So uh... How is everyone? Lol

EDIT
BTW can
愛する人のために
be read as plural? Like "Loved one"? I honestly don't remember any Japanese

Edit 2:
Oh NM it's just 愛するもの so... uh... that can't be loved things right?.... someone said it was things and.. idek
 
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The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
@Dashell

The first one you posted there uses "人," so it's always going to be about a person or people. The use of "もの" could refer to a "thing"/"what" or object that isn't a person, but with "愛する" describing that object, it would still need to be something very dear to the subject -- so it's usually going to be a person.

In fact, I would argue that so long as there is a person available to fit the context, it will be about the person. In other words, in a case such as this, where Cloud had his hometown and at least one person he loved taken from him by Sephiroth, the person will take priority within the context and the speaker will specify the non-person object if that's what they're talking about.

On a related note, while "a loved one stolen from him by Sephiroth" could describe both Cloud's mom and Aerith (since "愛" isn't used strictly for a romantic loved one; that would be "恋愛"), given the frequently emphasized significance for Cloud of losing Aerith, it only stands to reason that she would be the one referenced by this passage.

I don't think, by the way, that the passage is speaking of both women, nor the both of them plus Cloud's hometown. Had "もの" been written as "者たち"/"ものたち" (an explicitly plural rendering of "もの") or as "物事"/"ものごと" ("many things" or "everything") instead, I would think other interpretations potentially valid (e.g. "the enemy who stole much/many/several he held dear").
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
is this another part that's in the english ultimania and people are saying is wrong/biased? because that's all i find when googling this phrase lol (it's some rich sweet irony to see people complaining about 'fan translators who can't translate basic words' from the people who brought you 'koi [blank space that is totally a thing in the middle of japanese words] bito' just means 'a nice gal' until it doesn't and wacdonalds)*

i'm going to be a contrarian and say it could be cloud's mother as well, and possibly nibelhelm too

maybe it's a personal interpretation but i read the implication of revenge in 仇, and cloud getting 'revenge' on sephiroth for taking away his mother (and tifa, and his town) is in the nibelhelm scenes. it's preceded by cloud's childhood admiration so the scope of things covered there isn't limited to just the events within the game.

i don't think it's necessary to specify a plural to make もの refer to multiple people, since japanese is more easy going about explicitly making singular/plurals clear. and by writing it as もの it's not as limiting leaves it open to interpretation compared to using 者 or 物 (which aren't particularly unusual characters so there's no real reason not to use them in a book like this).


i'd also disagree with characterising the last part of that little triad as 'reunion with/of the mother's body' (which seems to be the most common alternative to the english ultimania i'm seeing), given the ordering of the phrase. maybe if it had been 母体のリユニオン then i would agree with it being 'reunion of the mother's body, but less so as リユニオンの母体. if i really stretch it then i could see a slight possibility, but i wouldn't push that as the most likely. instead sephiroth being the 'mother' [instigator] of the reunion.


now i'm full of food and have to go have a lie down


* i shouldn't have looked it up at all tbh because man it's annoying. the first link i found that linked directly to this starts off by complaining about cloud/tifa fans doing 'character assassination' on the poor french novel translator then spends paragraphs talking about how the english translators are biased incompetents. the french and german translators are all highly qualified with a deep knowledge of ff, but i guess they just picked the english translators off the street.

claiming that c/t fans now 'make up' a new definition of koibito when they actually did that! for years! constantly! and now it only has one meaning, the one that was wrong when it was talking about tifa in that reunion files quote! lol! no! no! fuck off lol

this is after years of saying you can't say anything definitive unless you have an 'official' english translation, yet when there is one suddenly you can just disregard it because you don't like what it says.

this isn't even to say just because the english version says something, it must be right. i'm pretty sure i've been consistent for years that an official translation/localisation doesn't mean it's automatically right (way before french novel translations or whatever the cudgel is now). but the more fervent responses were that you can never know anything for sure until you had an english version. otherwise it's just fans and who can possibly know what something says unless you're getting paid to put it into english, it's a mystery.

anyway thanks for bringing this up, i hate it, this entire debate is toxic bullshit and i hope cloud ends up with gackt in the remake
 
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