The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah. I know. It doesn't make any sense to me either.

Like I mentioned yesterday, Ultimanias have had "Edited by Studio BentStuff" and "Published by DigiCube"/"Published by Square Enix" on their covers in large English print for 15 years.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah. I know. It doesn't make any sense to me either.

Like I mentioned yesterday, Ultimanias have had "Edited by Studio BentStuff" and "Published by DigiCube"/"Published by Square Enix" on their covers in large English print for 15 years.

Well see neither of those phrases contain "Cloud" or "Aerith" in them so... you know they were kind of looked over

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Oh it is in tumblr, ok then.

The new rules are basically anything that doesn't come specifically and exclusively from the mouth/brain/soul/hands/foot/etc of Nomura, Nojima and Kitase is not canon. Random staffers don't count. I mean, who knows how they come up with the stuff, they could just be putting their own spins on things or something, unless they are under constant supervision from Nomura/Nojima/Kitase or something and/or quoting them word for word verbatim or stuff like that it probably doesn't count. If Nomura, Nojima and Kitase are not responsible for every word in the Ultimanias, they don't count sorry. Well since these Ultimanias and things do contain Clerith related things though you can still use them as evidence, it's ok for both sides to use it as evidence, but it's not canon really, and since your evidence isn't Nomura/Nojima/Kitase it doesn't matter anyway really, story playbacks for the Highwind scenes, etc or even for Cloud and Aerith's date, Marlene scene, etc except but, oh wait Maiden, Dismantled, those other Clerith related things too, still evidence but not canon hmmm? (Can't be canon if they were in/bundled with those non canon Ultimanias even now surely )

Spoiler

Poor Benny

 

[Shademp]

While I certainly enjoy discourses about the room for error when franchise lore expands to multiple guide books, noting that the author is not present for every text row of editing, these topics only extend to dead-end speculation.

There is room for error in guide books (I often speculate that pre-release material for FFVII lore have made their way in there) there is equally room for the authors themselves being erroneous, disagreeing, forgetting stuff etc. Speculation here is for speculation's sake, not for establishing clear 100% rules on what counts and what doesn't.

Franchise canon is an amorphous entity, as a consequence from human factors.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Not to mention the Ultimanias are an established franchise, with a wealth of information and other goodies not just for FF7, but for the FF series in general, FFXIII, etc, even now people are looking to the Ultimanias for more information about Lightning Returns. No doubt they are brought up for FFX series discussions, etc as well.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Even if the Ultimanias are discounted Clotis are left with the following:

1. Case of Tifa
2. Nojima speaking about Cloud and Tifa in the context of love, marriage and family
3. Cloud and Tifa "belong together" by Nojima
4. Nomura saying Cloud is happy with his family
5. Reunion Files. Nomura saying how Tifa "is a woman left behind by a man," and that's she's connected to Cloud's future, and that she's a koibito

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

When it comes to contradicting canon sources I take the more recent source's events as canon, i. e., CC depiction of the Nibelheim incident is correct, Greedo shot first but barely, etc.

 

[Splintered]

If that's the case then do cameos in things like FFIX, FF tactics, and Airborne don't count. Because I doubt that they were specifically made by the same creators.

This is sort of annoying because most of us aren't solely FFVII ltd, we use Ulti's for a whole host of things and information, I know in XIII we've been back and forthing on the mythology and using Ulti as the word of god. I GUESS THAT DOESN'T MATTER EITHER.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Well they can't really count ... because those things have Cloti things in them as well

In fact Brigade has been focused on/treated to Cloti fanservice recently/currently, there is an episode coming out/might be out now about that Cloud with Tifa assist card thing. Aerith episode got Aerith date, Cloud's words about Aerith's last smile, etc so wouldn't really surprise me if this one got well scene, Highwind scene, etc. It's all really cute stuff, all in all, this chibis are so adorable

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't know much about these episodes. Are they different from the usual events that are based on an individual game and have a boss from that game?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the info about the Cloud/Tifa thing. It's an event like the others, but based around Dissidia:

http://app.famitsu.com/20140107_298925/

It is a special event, though, in that it's commemorating the second anniversary of FF Brigade.

 

[Dashell]

So the argument "But it was published in the Ultimania so it's canon!"... is thrown out the window for Maiden now?


Okay guess we'll say the same about the Dissidia entries...


So yeah say goodbye to them

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Since stuff not actually written or said by Nojima, et. al. is supposedly unacceptable, then not only would Maiden and anything in the Kaitai Shinsho that isn't a developer's quote be gone, but what too does this do for official translations into other languages? They didn't do the translations, so their intent isn't known, yes?

If we do still accept SE's own translations, though, because they were at least done by Square staff somewhere, we still have to throw out the original FFVII, Advent Children (Complete) and the Barret, Denzel and Tifa episodes of On the Way to a Smile since they were all translated and published by Sony (and Eidos in the original game's circumstances). The Reunion Files has to go out the window too since SoftBank (publishing) and Intac (translation) handled that.

All that pruning then leaves us with the Compilation of Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus.

And if we do still accept those other titles because "they're the official translations," which has been the argument for ignoring fan translations (the ones not liked), we're back at having to accept the Ultimanias too, since Square itself actually publishes them, making them official (hell, a lot of them have a stamp on the little cover wraparound that says "Direct Delivery from Production Area, Official Guidebook of Square Enix"/産地直送 スクウェア・エニクスの公式ガイドブック, as on the cover of the FFXIII-2 Ultimania Omega). Everything in the Kaitai Shinsho that isn't a developer's quote might still be gone since that book was handled by Studio BentStuff (writing) and Famitsu/Enterbrain (editing and publishing), but the Ultimanias would certainly have to be back, at least in Japanese.

But wait -- since we can't accept anything that's not officially translated by SE itself, we once again have to throw out FFVII, AC, OtWtaS and the Reunion Files. Everything in the Kaitai Shinsho and the Ultimanias is off the table again since there are no official translations, neither by SE nor even so much as an approved third party.

So, there you have it, folks: You can only argue the LTD based on what's in Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. Have fun, I guess.

What a dissonant world we create for ourselves when we refuse to pick a reasonable standard and follow it consistently.

 

[Octo]

What about the desserts though!?

 

[Splintered]

What about the desserts though!?

Delicious, but still unacceptable.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Unless Kitase himself makes you one. THEN it counts But seriously...

What a dissonant world we create for ourselves when we refuse to pick a reasonable standard and follow it consistently.

This.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Reasonable and Consistent standards and inernet arguments are not fast friends, Glenn, that much is well known.

Also, I can see the arguments for allowing the Eidos translation of FF7 because SE owns them now. It's a terribly argument, but I can see them being made. Because I've seen stupider and I've learned to never doubt stupidity in the pursuit of a conclusion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If it satisfies anyone's curiosity (i.e. if anyone actually cares), I looked at the Ultimania credits pages to see exactly what is attributed to whom.

I decided the FFVII Ultimania Omega would be the most logical starting point. This is what it had to say:

出版・編集 (Publication and Editorial): Square Enix
企画・構成・執筆 (Planning, Constituion and Writing): Studio BentStuff
デザイン&DTP (Design and Desktop Publishing): Wan Inc.
カバーデザイン (Cover Design): Tadashi Shimada (Banana Studio)
インタビュー撮影 (Interview Photos): Handmade Co.
監修 (Editorial Supervision): Square Enix

Under each section are the names of the specific people involved and their respective contributions. Of most relevant note, under "Editorial Supervision," we find COMPILATION of FFVII 宣伝スタッフ (Compilation of FFVII Publicity Staff), 野村哲也 (Tetsuya Nomura) and 野島一成 (Kazushige Nojima).

From there, I checked the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania. Under "Editorial Supervision" and "Collaboration" (協&#21147, we find Nojima and the Compilation publicity staff again. Nojima is again listed under "Collaboration" for the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide, while Square Enix Publicity Department (宣伝&#37096 is under both "Collaboration" and "Supervision" for this one. Finally, both the publicity department and the Respective Final Fantasy Series Development Teams (ファイナルファンタジーシリーズ各開発チー&#12512 are listed under both "Collaboration" and "Editorial Supervision" for the FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2.

As a reminder, Vol. 2 is the book that talks about VII, VIII and IX, two of which were games written by Nojima. For comparison's sake, the FFVIII Ultimania uses a similar blanket credit (ファイナルファンタジーVIII開発チーム/Final Fantasy VIII Development Team) for "Collaboration" and has a unique short story from Nojima.

I don't have the Crisis Core Ultimania to bother checking, but it stands to reason that similar names can be found there. It also stands to reason that Nojima has seen and approved of how the Ultimanias talk about Cloud and Tifa.

And, yes, I will agree (as I'm sure the point will be made) that this further legitimizes the canon status for Maiden Who Travels the Planet, despite later Ultimanias ignoring it. But, again, I still don't know why a Flowerfield Clerith would want that one to be canon anyway.

So, can we put this thing to bed now?

 

[Dashell]

So, can we put this thing to bed now?

I dunno, how do we know we can TRUST you, I demand scans, a full copy for myself and the blood of a virgin

 

[Master Bates]

Sorry, Tres, but your post is not approved, nor was made under direct supervision of, Square Enix. You can't expect us to accept that.

 

[Octo]

Hey, I just looked at this bible... Doesn't say it was written by God, just some dude named Gideon -whoever THAT is.

I realise this is a bad analogy

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Reasonable and Consistent standards and inernet arguments are not fast friends, Glenn, that much is well known.

Also, I can see the arguments for allowing the Eidos translation of FF7 because SE owns them now. It's a terribly argument, but I can see them being made. Because I've seen stupider and I've learned to never doubt stupidity in the pursuit of a conclusion.

Wait, Eidos did a translation of FFVII? How does it compare to the official one?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's still official. It's the translation from the PC version. Shademp could tell you just how extensive the differences are, but I can only think of a few off the top of my head. I haven't compared them much.

 

[Ⓐaron]

The only one I can think of is they fixed "This guy are sick". Which may not be an improvement for some people.

 

[Lex]

They actually changed quite a lot, but it's mainly grammar stuff/ not all that noticeable. They completely restructured some sentences to the point where they're even further away from their initial translation, but nothing really story-altering. Some of it is actually quite noticeable when you're playing through the game if you're used to the Playstation version.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

>___>

In all seriousness thank you for your work Tres. I thought that might be the case that the Square Enix dev team guys would have been involved in some way or other like editing and that. So Editorial/Editorial Supervision yes Square Enix/etc/Nomura/Nojima supervised it/knew what was going into it

I'm glad you did that in detail for people to refer to/etc. Like I touched on before the StudioBentstuff material does support Clerith for what it is to an extent as well with Dismantled, and the story playbacks for Gold Saucer/Marlene stuff/etc from the Ultimanias, etc as well so I don't know why anyone would want to seriously dismiss that/not take it seriously for their ship.

And, yes, I will agree (as I'm sure the point will be made) that this further legitimizes the canon status for Maiden Who Travels the Planet, despite later Ultimanias ignoring it. But, again, I still don't know why a Flowerfield Clerith would want that one to be canon anyway.