Tres, I thought I’d start off by addressing Cloud’s line,
"I think I can meet/find her… there”, and the significance of Aerith’s Church vs the flower fields:
Squall Leonhart said:
Ugh, BlankBeat, stop. It doesn’t say that.
The passage doesn’t use pronouns like “he” or “they” there. Translating it into English required I place pronouns there, though, or I would have had to translate it as “Getting something of a hunch as to the Promised Land’s meaning, Cloud says thinks can meet …”
Give up this vain crusade to exclude Tifa from something she was never excluded from.
Stop it. You are
not going to avoid this.
Acknowledge what it says:
”If all people return to the Lifestream in the end, then they will in fact see Bugenhagen again someday. This line of thinking also shows up in Cloud and Tifa’s dialogue in the ending.”
"All people." It actually says that. "Minna" (みな
is "everyone."
The passage tells you there in arguable terms that in the ending Cloud and Tifa discuss seeing Aerith again on the basis that everyone goes back to the Lifestream. Unless Cloud is some God-like being, I’m quite certain he isn’t going to be able to exclude Tifa from that even if he wants to — and he doesn’t want to, because he’s not an asshole.
You’re not escaping this, dude. Sorry.
He doesn’t have to. Again, he doesn’t decide who goes to the Lifestream and who doesn’t.
Even if he could, he’s not telling her this so he can be a dick and say, “Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! I get to see our dead friend again and you dooon’t! Bee-yotch! Eat it!”
You have a really unfortunate view of Cloud.
“If all people return to the Lifestream in the end, then they will in fact see Bugenhagen again someday. This line of thinking also shows up in Cloud and Tifa’s dialogue in the ending.”
This quote says,
"all people” return to the lifestream, which is why everyone will see Bugenhagen again. But the journey back to the lifestream isn’t a journey two people take together, it’s a personal journey back to the planet. Tifa’s line at the end of FFVII,
"Let’s go meet her” tells us she doesn’t understand this, at least not during the moment she said it.
Tifa’s line implies she thinks meeting Aerith is a journey her and Cloud can take together,
at the same time. But unless Cloud and Tifa are planning on committing a double suicide at the exact same moment, they won’t be traveling to the lifestream together. And even if they did commit a double suicide at the exact same moment, their journey’s back to the lifestream would still be separate.
So let’s back up and examine the end of FFVII more thoroughly:
Cloud states,
"Aerith’s wishes… Our wishes… We came here so we could share them with you. Now, Planet! Give us your answer!”
Cloud is asking for the Planet to give him an answer, which he receives when Aerith reaches down to him from the lifestream:
Cloud: “I think I understand now.”
Tifa: "What?”
Cloud: “The planet’s answer… The Promised Land… I think I can find her there.”
Tifa: “Yeah, let’s go see her.” ~Reminiscence of FFVII
Cloud
specifically says, in the script, that the Planet answered his question when Aerith reached down to him from the lifestream. The answer given to Cloud by the Planet is that he can be with Aerith again in his Promised Land (ie: the lifestream)
If you examine the script, though, Tifa says,
"What?” after Cloud says,
"I think I understand now.”
Tifa is confused about what Cloud is starting to understand because she didn’t see the Planet’s answer to Cloud’s question, which was Aerith reaching down from the lifestream. Only after Cloud mentions finding
her [Aerith], does Tifa finally start to understand (on a very superficial level) that Cloud wants to be with Aerith. But Tifa doesn’t necessarily understand how this is possible because she never saw the Planet’s answer to Cloud’s question, which was Aerith reaching down from the lifestream.
It’s no wonder Tifa thinks both her and Cloud can meet Aerith — she didn’t see the Planet’s answer to Cloud’s question, which would have told her that the way to be reunited with Aerith is by returning to the lifestream. However, this isn’t something her and Cloud can do together, like her line,
“Let’s go meet her” suggests, but is something everyone will do alone, on their own time.
During this scene, Tifa hangs her head and seems to accept Cloud’s desire to be reunited with Aerith. At this point, the only thing Tifa can do is support Cloud’s wish and try to assist him. And so she invites herself along, not realizing
exactly what Cloud began to understand, but still determined to aid Cloud with his fondest wish, to be reunited with Aerith in his Promised Land (ie: the lifestream)
Here is something else to ponder:
At the Venice Film Festival (which Nojima attended) a special 25 minute version of AC was shown. In it, Tifa said,
"You think you’ ll meet her again this way? You think you would reach her by doing so? The way you die could be a good way, is that what you think?” ~Venice Film Festival Script
Source:
http://www.final-fantasy.it/venice_report.html
Tifa tells us she knows Cloud wants to meet Aerith by himself, and that dying would be a way for him to do so. This is exactly what I stated above — returning to the lifestream isn’t something Cloud and Tifa can or will do together, which is why Tifa’s line,
”Let’s go meet her” doesn’t make sense. However, I don’t hold this against Tifa because she didn’t see what Cloud saw (ie: Aerith reaching down from the lifestream — ie: the Planet’s answer to Cloud’s question)
Pretty sure I said that it’s a happy reminder that Aerith is always with him. But neither that nor the film being interpretive trumps that we’ve been told that Aerith went back to the Lifestream.
Now stop avoiding the question about the church vs. the flower fields. I’ve asked you twice now. You’re being inconsistent about it.
Here is my answer regarding the church vs. the flower fields. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this, so I hope it can shed some new light:
Aerith says you know you’ve reached the Promised Land after,
"You search and travel, until you feel it. Like you just know, …this is the Promised Land.”
Therefore, the Promised Land isn’t necessarily a place, but is a
feeling one gets — a feeling of supreme happiness.
Now, where does Cloud say he can find his Promised Land? In the lifestream. Why does Cloud feel he can find his Promised Land in the lifestream? Because he can find Aerith in the lifestream, and being around Aerith is Cloud’s supreme happiness, the feeling Aerith speaks of when you find your Promised Land.
An answer from the Planet…
the Promised Land…
I think I can meet her… there
In Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII, the line was changed to,
”I think I can *FIND* her… there”
So, Cloud believes he can find his Promised Land in the lifestream because that is where Aerith is.
However, despite Cloud realizing he can find his Promised Land by being with Aerith in the lifestream, Zack and Aerith tell Cloud he doesn’t belong in the lifestream yet:
“The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.” -FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback
But just as Dyne was reunited with his wife Eleanor in the lifestream, when Cloud finally belongs in the lifestream, he will also be reunited with his love, Aerith.
Where is the second place Cloud can find Aerith? Her Church, which is also stated to be Cloud’s Promised Land:
”The place where he awakens — That is Cloud’s Promised Land” ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback
Why are the lifestream and Aerith’s Church stated,
by both Cloud and SE, to be Cloud’s Promised Land? Because he can find Aerith in both places, and being around Aerith makes Cloud feel his supreme happiness. As Aerith notes, ones Promised Land is a
feeling one gets, not an actual location. Therefore, both the lifestream and Aerith’s Church are Cloud’s Promised Land (
according to both Cloud and SE) because he is able to obtain his feeling of supreme happiness in places he can find Aerith (ie: the lifestream and Aerith’s Church)
I know you’ve argued that Cloud’s friends and family are his Promised Land. However, Cloud has already stated he can find his Promised Land with Aerith in the lifestream. Therefore, it only makes sense that Aerith’s Church is also Cloud’s Promised Land because it is yet another place Cloud can find Aerith. What backs this up is the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, which states,
"The *PLACE* where he awakens — That is Cloud’s Promised Land”
In other words, Cloud has found his Promised Land in two places — the lifestream and Aerith’s Church. Why? Because he can find Aerith in both places, and being around Aerith evokes in Cloud the feeling Aerith speaks of when one finds their Promised Land:
"You search and travel until you feel it. Like you just know, …this is the Promised Land.”
Cloud finds this feeling of supreme happiness, and therefore his Promised Land, wherever he can find Aerith, which is the lifestream and the Church:
Cloud can *FIND* Aerith in the lifestream:
The Promised Land…
"I think I can *FIND* her… there"
~Cloud Strife, Final Fantasy VII
Cloud can *FIND* Aerith in her Church:
The place where he awakens — That is Cloud’s Promised Land
~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback
The lifestream and Aerith’s Church are stated (
by both Cloud and SE) to be Cloud’s Promised Land. Why? Because Cloud can *FIND* Aerith in both places, and being around Aerith evokes Cloud’s feelings of supreme happiness, the feeling Aerith says one will get when they know they’ve reached their Promised Land.
So why does Cloud continue to be seen riding through/searching for flower fields?
Because Cloud can also *FIND* Aerith in the flower fields:
To me, Cloud’s Promised Land being with Aerith is the most compelling argument in favor of Cloud x Aerith.
Now, some may mock this belief, saying it’s silly to think Cloud and Aerith would share a romance in the lifestream. However, Dyne is reunited with his wife, Eleanor, in the lifestream. This is stated in
Maiden of the Planet:
Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.
She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne’s faint, surprised voice could be heard.
Dyne: “Eleanor?”
Dyne returns to *HIS* promised land, which is with his wife, Eleanor, in the lifestream. That is the only place Dyne can reach his Promised Land because that is the only place Eleanor appears. Aerith, on the other hand, appears in the lifestream, her Church, and flower fields. So although according to Zack and Aerith, Cloud doesn’t belong in the lifestream yet, Cloud will one day reunite with Aerith in the lifestream, just as Dyne did with his wife, Eleanor. Therefore, SE has already told us that romantic partners can and do reunite in the lifestream.
While Cloud is alive, however, he has also found the feeling Aerith speaks of when one finds their Promised Land in *TWO* locations — Aerith’s Church and the flower fields. Why? Because Cloud can find Aerith in both places, and being with Aerith evokes Cloud’s feeling of supreme happiness, the feeling Aerith speaks of when one finds their Promised Land.
*THIS* is why I’m a diehard Clerith.
Meanwhile, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship doesn’t go well according to Nojima, and they still have issues the kids MAY be able to help them sort through *AFTER* AC/C ends.
I just don’t see Cloti at all :/
Squall Leonhart said:
That’s not quite what happened. Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care before he even knew he was getting involved with oil. He left her with them because he didn’t want her around himself.
As Cloud would later believe about himself, Barret didn’t think he was worthy of his family. He believes he’s off earning his right to be Marlene’s dad. Leaving her with Cloud and Tifa has nothing to do with oil.
I guess what I’m saying is… history tells us Barret would rather Marlene be at Seventh Heaven than with him doing whatever the hell he’s doing. Barret knows Seventh Heaven is the best place for Marlene, which is why he leaves her there throughout the entire FFVII compilation.
When Barret first began his involvement in the oil business, he didn’t remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven. So please tell me…what would suddenly prompt Barret to remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven in DoC? And remember…Barret didn’t remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven when he initially started in the oil business. So what would suddenly prompt this change in Barret’s thought process? Nothing in Barret’s history suggests he would take Marlene away from Seventh Heaven. In-fact, Barret’s history suggests taking Marlene away from Seventh Heaven would be the very LAST thing he would ever do.
What further establishes Barret returns to living at Seventh Heaven is that Cloud, Barret, and Tifa are always shown together in DoC *AND* travel together. I guess when I look at history and contextual evidence, it seems very obvious to me that Barret returns to living at Seventh Heaven in DoC.
History tells us the very last thing Barret would ever do would be to remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven. He’s not a selfish man and recognizes that the best place for Marlene isn’t with him digging for oil, but at Seventh Heaven.
Do you actually believe Barret would be selfish enough to remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven in DoC? From the place where Marlene has what she considers a Mother? From the place where Marlene has what she considers a brother? From the place where Marlene has what she considers a second Father? You are painting Barret out to be a pretty bad guy with your theory that he would possibly remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven in DoC. IMO, Barret’s history surly doesn’t suggest he would do this. In-fact, his history suggests (from the very beginning of FFVII) that this would be the very last thing he’d ever do.
Squall Leonhart said:
It’s more complex than that, of course. A lot of people end up travelling together throughout the game, but they have a common mission in stopping Deepground.
When they’re seen together, they’re riding into battle in a WRO truck — like Vincent and Yuffie riding into battle along with WRO troops in an airship piloted by Cid. It’s not even their truck.
OK. So. Let me get this straight (because I admittedly don’t know as much about the compilation as you do):
Yuffie and Vincent travel with Cid in an
airship. Seems likely, given how fast airships are, Cid picked up Yuffie and Vincent from where they were living. Barret and Tifa, on the other hand, travel together in a
truck. Given that a truck is a far slower mode of transportation than an airship, it seems likely Barret and Tifa began their journey at Seventh Heaven, whereas Cid picked Yuffie and Vincent up in his airship.
Not only does the mode of transposition in Barret and Tifa’s case suggest they started together at Seventh Heaven, but their history suggests it, too [Barret and Tifa lived together at Seventh Heaven during the beginning of FFVII, Barret formed a family with Tifa and rebuilt the new Seventh Heaven in CoT, and Barret returns to living with Marlene in DoC]
Squall Leonhart said:
No matter how one comes down on the relationship thing for those two, to argue that their relationship in Episode:Tifa is no different than it was throughout FFVII is flatly ignoring everything that’s happened between those two. Their relationship is very much different, whether it be seen as openly romantic or no.
That’s not a subjective opinion either. That’s plain truth. If you’re looking solely to relationship charts for your cues, you’re missing the story. I keep telling you, this chart argument is completely illogical to use as the basis for your understanding of the characters relation to one another.
Hell, “childhood friends” doesn’t really tell you anything valuable about Cloud and Tifa’s relation to one another in the original game, does it? Just like it doesn’t for Lulu and Wakka’s relationship in FFX, which was before things got romantic between them as well.
Even before, Lulu and Wakka’s relationship was far more complex than those two words alone could convey, and it was different from their individual relationships with Yuna, despite her being their childhood friend as well (which the charts for FFX don’t mention).
The charts are incomplete. The buck stops nowhere near them.
I never said the charts were perfect, nor did I say the buck stops anywhere near them. Obviously the relationships between the characters are much deeper than what the charts can convey. But I find it notable that when given the opportunity to highlight an evolution in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship, SE didn’t. Cloud and Tifa are given the exact same description of “childhood friends” in both the FFVII and AC relationship charts, yet the AC relationship chart refers their relationship *AFTER* the HA Highwind scene takes place.
It’s true that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship isn’t the same in FFVII as it is in AC. But what I think the relationship charts are saying is that although their relationship has changed, their relationship is still within the context of two friends that have known each other since childhood.
For instance, relationships between myself and my friends change daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly. But at the end of the day, we are still just classified as friends. And that’s what I think the FFVII and AC relationship charts are saying about Cloud and Tifa. Cloud and Tifa’s relationship may have changed between FFVII and AC, but their relationship is is still within the context of two friends that have known each other since childhood in *BOTH* FFVII and AC.
So although Cloud and Tifa may have briefly become boyfriend/girlfriend in CoT, by the end of CoT and by the start of AC, they returned to simply being childhood friends. Therefore, their relationship (that clearly evolves and changes over time) is still only between two “childhood friends,” *NOT* “lovers” or “romantic partners”.
Squall Leonhart said:
I … actually don’t see anything I want to disagree with here.
Hell, I agree that they aren’t a couple during Advent Children even if they were prior to it.
I never knew you thought Cloud and Tifa weren’t a couple during AC. That’s good to know.
Squall Leonhart said:
The “will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend?” thing? That didn’t happen with them, but they ended up as such.
Where is the proof that Cloud and Tifa ended up as boyfriend/girlfriend? I don’t see anything that would indicate this, except maybe Cloud’s blushing. But if blushing is as far as their relationship got after the HA Highwind scene, well…I don’t really think I need to go any further than that.
Squall Leonhart said:
You are aware that Nojima did far more than say things didn’t go well between them? He actually wrote them breaking up, even after writing them having sex.
So if you believe Cloud and Tifa broke up at the end of CoT, and Nojima says their problems continue after AC/C ends, then maybe you can offer some insight into why so many in the Cloti fandom insist Cloud and Tifa are currently boyfriend/girlfriend? Not only do they insist Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend/girlfriend, but they insist their opinion is canon.
Squall Leonhart said:
Are you talking about Nojima’s quote about Episode:Tifa? The most obvious reading of the “Things didn’t go well” comment would be that they gave it a shot and it fell on its face, yes?
Seriously, if they didn’t give it a shot, how could it not go well? Something that wasn’t attempted to begin with can go neither well nor poorly.
To me, it seems Cloti’s are arguing that Cloud and Tifa are currently boyfriend/girlfriend. However, you seem to think they were boyfriend/girlfriend for a brief period of time, but that their relationship didn’t work out. So, do you agree that from the information we have currently, Cloud and Tifa are *NOT* boyfriend/girlfriend?
Squall Leonhart said:
By the way, are you going to keep insisting that Nomura said he had “no clue” instead of not caring?
That is the way I have seen Nomura’s quote translated. We will have to agree to disagree.
Squall Leonhart said:
Anyway, the biggest evidence is that Nojima even bothers in the first place talking about how things haven’t gone well between them and wrote a story centered around that. Looking at the story as objectively as possible, we see how they start out optimistic and flirty (“Because I have you,” the blushing, etc.) and then things degrade.
Just look at the story for what it is — following the world’s last-minute rescue and everyone getting a new lease on life, a young man says deeply affectionate things to a young woman about how he is going to have a good life because she is with him, blushes when he talks to her, they build a house identified as theirs at the exclusion of other adults (seriously, the Japanese text inarguably excludes Barret from ownership of the home), etc. Gradually, they grow apart as he keeps things that are troubling him to himself and as she lacks the courage to come out and ask him if he isn’t happy with her.
Really, what else can you call that?
Given that the thought of a relationship never entered either Cloud or Tifa’s minds during the HA Highwind scene (because they thought that night would be their last), and given the circumstances of their lives and the world after defeating Sephiroth, I don’t think they became a couple. I agree with the non-official quote, “more than friends, less than lovers”.
Plus, I view Tifa’s reactions to Cloud’s line at the end of FFVII as her beginning to come to terms with Cloud’s preference for Aerith.
Anyway...
The examples you gave aren’t very compelling, IMO. Cloud saying,
“Because I have you” is essentially what Cloud and Tifa already said to each other in *BOTH* versions of the Highwind scene. The fact that the exchange I’m referring to was included in both the HA and LA Highwind scene means it isn’t necessarily romantic:
Tifa “……”
(Cloud stands.)
Cloud “We’d better go.”
(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)
Tifa “But, I still…!?”
(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)
Cloud “It’s all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday.”
”At least we don’t have to go on alone.”
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa “Yes… That’s right!”
(He nods)
Cloud “Okay! Let’s go!”
Given the bolded parts of the quote from the Highwind scene, it appears to me that when Cloud says,
“Because I have you,” he is essentially repeating what he’s already said in the Highwind scene. And what Cloud already said to Tifa in the Highwind scene appears in both versions, so it’s not necessarily a romantic declaration.
As for the blushing, well, if that’s as far their relationship got after the HA Highwind scene, then…I don’t think I need to go any further than that.
Squall Leonhart said:
Accurate? I think not!
You’ve already been show that Cloud did respond to the second thing.
And the first wasn’t a request, by the way. Tifa’s “Let’s go meet her” is worded as an affirmation.
Here is a great post regarding the issue of Cloud not inviting Tifa to go with him to Aerith's Church. Please read it, because it basically says what I believe in more concise words than I could come up with:
Denzel had collapsed from the effects of Geostigma, a disease caused by Sephiroth’s negative influence on the Lifestream. Cloud believes that Aerith had brought Denzel to him and he admits this to Tifa.
Tifa, however, seems more stuck on the fact that Cloud has been lingering in Aerith’s church. She then promptly invites herself to go with Cloud the next time he goes. Not wanting to argue, Cloud answers with an abrupt “Fine”. However, we know for a fact that this is most certainly **not** fine with Cloud as he **continues** to visit Aerith’s church by himself and never **once** takes Tifa with him.
Tifa then goes even further by telling Cloud that he’s wrong about Denzel. She tells him that Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to **him**, but to both of them. Once again, Tifa is inserting herself into Cloud’s two-person world with Aerith. And he clearly doesn’t like it. How do I know this? Because he moves out a few days after that. And where does he go? Aerith’s church… **without** telling Tifa.
What can we take away from this? Where Aerith is concerned, Cloud clearly doesn’t want interference from anyone else. Whether he is visiting her church or searching for a way to be reunited with her, this is something he prefers to do alone. Tifa means well, but she only manages to drive Cloud away. He obviously didn’t want her going along with him to the church or he would have asked her to join him. He also clearly thinks that Aerith brought Denzel to him, not to both he and Tifa. When Tifa inserts herself into his ideas about the boy, he just stares at her and says nothing. He certainly doesn’t agree with her. It is much the same when Tifa invites herself along to see Aerith with Cloud in the Promised Land.
------------
Bottom line: After Tifa asked to go with Cloud to Aerith’s Church the next time he went, Cloud not only didn’t bring her (despite the fact that she asked to go), but he actually started residing in Aerith’s Church. That means when Tifa asked if she could join Cloud the next time he went to Aerith’s Church, Cloud had no intention of bringing Tifa with him despite her request that he do so.
In addition, these two examples aren’t the only times Tifa has invited herself along when she wasn’t asked. Here are two more:
1: (Cloud goes to leave.)
Tifa: “You’re going after Aerith, right?”
Cloud: “Yeah.”
Tifa: “I’m going with you.” (At Aerith’s House)
2: Cloud: “…I understand now. Aerith… I’ll do the rest.”
Tifa: “You mean, WE…” (At the Forgotten City)
Currently, I have 4 examples of Tifa inviting herself.
Squall Leonhart said:
You keep claiming SE did the translation. They didn’t.
Not really. This stuff did exist in Japanese before it ever got translated into English.
Why should I accept your translation over the two official English translations by Sony?
Squall Leonhart said:
How does it suggest that? And what is there to vet? It still lacks pronouns. It still requires somebody make a judgment about what pronoun to insert — and it’s the same source who utterly cocked up the exchange between Cloud and Elmyra in Case of Tifa.
I trust the translations by Sony, a company that works with SE, over your translations. Sorry. Just being honest.
Squall Leonhart said:
I did, yeah.
That’s what it sounds like.
Alright. So at least now we can agree that Cloud ignored/did not return Tifa’s calls on purpose given Tifa’s line,
“Cloud, you never call.”
Squall Leonhart said:
So, now you’re going to assume that they never had another private conversation in the months between that event and where the story picks up next?
Purely speculation. We have no idea what those private conversations may or may not have consisted of.
So far, blushing is as far as Cloud and Tifa’s relationship got before Nojima’s premise came into effect. Blushing is hardly proof of Cloud and Tifa being boyfriend/girlfriend.
Squall Leonhart said:
”Successful communication” is the key idea here. If I call a Swede or Spaniard who doesn’t wear a lot black and/or paint their nails and/or dye their hair and/or wear makeup a “Goth,” then try to defend my misleading description by saying that the encyclopedia says the people they’re descended from were called Goths, that doesn’t change that I haven’t communicated in a way that would be understood. That word isn’t used in reference to anyone alive today. “Goth” is understood to mean something else entirely.
This isn’t being nitpicky in the pejorative sense you’re trying to imply. “Nitpicky” implies being an anal, elitist prick. I’m not. I’m saying you’re using the wrong word to communicate the idea you said you had intended to convey, and I’m saying so because you are doing that.
Maybe instead of focusing on one specific word I decided to use, it would have been better to ask if I was using the primary or secondary definition.
Squall Leonhart said:
You can trust your own eyes. It has only ever been referenced twice, and both times as Cloud’s office. See for yourself.
Here’s the official translation of both that you favor so much:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddsse17.jpg
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddsse19.jpg
Here’s the original Japanese text:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddsse18.jpg
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddsse20.jpg
It’s utterly undeniable, and I’ll thank you not to imply I’m misreporting it again.
If not meant to be seen as an office, why “the room Cloud used as an office” and “Cloud’s office” instead of “the room Cloud slept in” or “Cloud’s room”? The children’s bedroom is plainly called “the children’s room” (子共部屋
.
I brought up the point that Marlene slept with Tifa, therefore Cloud must have slept in his room while Marlene slept with Tifa. Instead of answering my point, you said it’s Cloud’s office, *NOT* his room. You avoided my point in a slightly condescending way. At least, that’s how it came off to me.
Let’s not forget about the official translation of,
“Then drink in your room” that Tifa shouts at Cloud after he turns her down:
It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
"I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.” ~CoT
So haven't these four walls also been referred to as Cloud's room?
Regardless, I agree that Cloud’s room is also his office. Perhaps the reason it is referred to as his office at times is because he runs a business from that room. His room has its own phone line for his business and is decorated with photos Cloud has taken during his travels. However, it’s not called his office because he’s sleeping with Tifa in the other room. So, let’s just make this simple and say that “bedroom/room” and “office” are interchangeable terms here. It’s his room *AND* his office. Simple.
The fact is, it doesn’t really matter if it’s an office or a room. The four walls that are designed to be Cloud’s space have a bed in it. So, Cloud has a bed in his room/office. The fact that Cloud’s room is sometimes referred to as his office doesn’t prevent Cloud from sleeping in that bed. In other words, the fact that Cloud’s room is sometimes called his office doesn’t prevent or stop Cloud from sleeping in the bed found within those four walls.
Why would the word used have any relevance on if Cloud sleeps in the bed found within those four walls!?!?!?!?
Squall Leonhart said:
I’m not even sure what we’re supposed to be disagreeing about anymore.
You said that Tifa doesn't believe Cloud loves her for reasons that aren't true, so it's not really a valid criticism of their relationship. At least, that's what I summarized from your previous post. I responded, saying it doesn't matter if the reasons are true or not because Tifa still believes Cloud doesn't love her, which, at the end of the day, negatively impacts their relationship. Perception is reality.
IMO, the fact that Tifa doesn't think Cloud loves her for reasons that aren't true is just another example of their communication problems, something that is still present between them after AC/C is over.
Squall Leonhart said:
I suppose you have undeniable proof of this rather than reasonable speculation?
We never see Marlene sleeping in her bed, yet we assume she sleeps there, right? The obvious assumption SE knows we are going to make when we see a bed in Cloud’s office/room, especially in light of the fact that we know Marlene slept with Tifa, is that Cloud sleeps there.
Just as it wasn’t necessary to show Marlene sleeping in her bed, it’s not really necessary to show Cloud sleeping in his bed, either. All that is necessary is common sense.
Squall Leonhart said:
You’re making stuff up that isn’t there. This is outright trolling at this point, BlankBeat.
The passages merely say that Cloud made sure he had time at night for the kids. Not that he made sure he had time for only the kids.
You’re inserting extra stuff again, just like with the “I can find her there” matter. Stop it.
Just stop it. It makes you look unbelievably bad.
CoT clearly states that Cloud started to spend more time at Seventh heaven AFTER Denzel arrived.
What changed from the time Cloud was angry, disinterested, and staying away (when it was just him, Marlene and Tifa) to the time of his sudden interest in Seventh Heaven? Denzel came into the picture.
Now, Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared because Cloud was clearly taking less jobs and he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.
The important thing to note is: Tifa wondered if they became a real family *after* Denzel appeared. Therefore, even Tifa noticed that Cloud only started to come around more AFTER Denzel arrived.
Before Denzel showed up, he and Tifa weren’t getting along, had communication issues, Marlene said that Cloud and Tifa, “weren’t very good friends,” Tifa yelled at Cloud to drink in his room… UNTIL Denzel came into the picture. CoT clearly shows how drastically Cloud changed after finding Denzel. Tifa even admits this and wonders if they became a real family *AFTER* Denzel arrived:
Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back. ~CoT
Squall Leonhart said:
Aaand Tifa was part of Cloud’s happiness that Denzel and Aerith are interconnected with. Or are you forgetting that we’re told how happy Cloud was living with her and the kids?:
”The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…”
You shouldn’t have to be frequently reminded of this. You don’t get Cloud.
No one is denying Cloud was happy. But he only started to get happy again AFTER Denzel arrived. Denzel made Cloud happy thanks to Aerith.
Squall Leonhart said:
Cloud was drifting away after he delivered the flowers from Elmyra to the Forgotten City. After finding Denzel, he perks up again, and the change in him is shown to be because he thinks Denzel was brought to him as a way to make up for his past.
It’s very straightforward: Cloud starts getting eaten up with guilt and wants forgiveness; Cloud finds a way to absolve himself of his guilt (Denzel) and earn being happy again; then Cloud seemingly fails to earn his redemption (he can’t find a cure for geostigma) and returns to being eaten alive by guilt and seeking forgiveness.
He was talking about being forgiven as early as the day the world was saved from Meteor.
Official English translation:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddssf6.jpg
Original Japanese text:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddssf7.jpg
He was
always troubled with guilt after FFVII. It wasn’t something that only came up right before Advent Children.
Honestly, I don’t know why you haven’t jumped on the fact that Cloud initially thought he was going to be able to get over his guilt because he had Tifa, but that this didn’t do the trick, and that he didn’t start to believe so again until Denzel came along.
Anyway, tl;dr: Yes, that’s why Cloud was at the church when he found Denzel. Why in the world else did you think he would have made the connection that Aerith had sent Denzel to him as his redemption for letting her die?
OK, fair enough.
Squall Leonhart said:
I’m not sure why you think Holy would not have been cast, though. Aerith cast it before she died.
Whoops. You’re right. I just meant that Nojima isn’t afraid of speaking of alternative realities that would drastically change the story of FFVII (ie: talking about the possibility of Aerith living). But you’re right, Aerith living wouldn’t have changed the summoning of Holy.
Squall Leonhart said:
Why are you responding to me here as though I disagreed with what you were about to say? Which was exactly what I had already said? You did see that I was disagreeing with Ryu and said I think the Tactics cameo is Clerithy?
It’s like no matter what I’m actually saying, you see me talking and automatically go into defense mode.
I was just adding to your points. Wasn’t meant to be taken as me disagreeing with you. Sorry if it came off that way.
enzel).
