The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[tron]

^This is literally the most pointless post I have ever read.

Well, it was kinda a response to your post, mate ;^)

 

[Tennyo]

Are you really piggy-backing off of what I said?

And what, by saying, "You can't argue because I say so?"

And "I know Cloud ends up with Tifa but but but...Aerith still wins." Who gives a shit? She's dead. The argument is moot.

Troll in the dungeon.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Sorry if I've been a little bit of a dick here, by the way. I'm just kind of annoyed. I've had my name drug through all kinds of dirt for reporting stuff in this fandom that people simply didn't want to be true, and so it's frustrating as hell to see that some of those same people are now losing their goddamn minds in a frenzy of glee that the same kind of stuff is being said about the pairing they want to see it said about.

Mind giving me their names?

 

[tron]

Are you really piggy-backing off of what I said?

And what, by saying, "You can't argue because I say so?"

And "I know Cloud ends up with Tifa but but but...Aerith still wins." Who gives a shit? She's dead. The argument is moot.

Troll in the dungeon.

Ain't trolling bro. Just giving my two cents to everything we saw of Cloud, Aeris and Tifa till to this point. I'm pretty sure we will see even more CloudxAeris stuff in the upcoming remake. There is a reason why we get to hear over and over again that Cloud loved Aeris.

Sorry if I've been a little bit of a dick here, by the way. I'm just kind of annoyed. I've had my name drug through all kinds of dirt for reporting stuff in this fandom that people simply didn't want to be true, and so it's frustrating as hell to see that some of those same people are now losing their goddamn minds in a frenzy of glee that the same kind of stuff is being said about the pairing they want to see it said about.

Mind giving me their names?

wat

 

[Tennyo]

Are you really piggy-backing off of what I said?

And what, by saying, "You can't argue because I say so?"

And "I know Cloud ends up with Tifa but but but...Aerith still wins." Who gives a shit? She's dead. The argument is moot.

Troll in the dungeon.

Ain't trolling bro. Just giving my two cents to everything we saw of Cloud, Aeris and Tifa till to this point. I'm pretty sure we will see even more CloudxAeris stuff in the upcoming remake. There is a reason why we get to hear over and over again that Cloud loved Aeris.

Except you've made like 40 posts in five years. Why else are you here but to purposely stir drama?

Also, proofz and don't cherry pick around Cloti stuff either.

Your stance still makes no sense, btw. If you believe Cloud got with Tifa then why are you even here? It doesn't matter which one he loved more.

Oh wait that's right if you're going to have two female leads they HAVE to be rivals instead of friends. Silly me for thinking female characters could be anything else.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

wat

No, not you....

 

[Teioh]

Not sure what you mean. Since when was there CloudxTifa stuff in FFRK?

Since the beginning but if you want specifics there’s this

Spoiler: trailer for starters

0:22

.

There was the

Spoiler: Christmas 2015 event

where Cloud and Tifa appeared alongside other

Spoiler: FF couples

Cecil and Rosa

Locke and Celes

Squall and Rinoa

Zidane and Garnet

Tidus and Yuna

Vaan and Penelo

.

Then this

Spoiler: Cloti wallpaper

, alongside this

Spoiler: Tiduna one

.

And then there's the upcoming event -

Spoiler: this one

FFRK event

. Look! I’ll finally be able to recruit Rufus into my party Cloti is just a bonus really.

Point is there's Cloti in FFRK shown alongside other canon couples, and SE are ship pandering jerks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Splintered]

"Is just a consolation prize" sounds like an immature argument meant as a consolation for shippers who's otp lost (and tbh I don't subscribe to the idea that either pairing lost). If you got to talk down a ship to make yours feel more canon, it's not a winning argument. You can make a similar argument, for example, about Locke and Celes, or Laguna and Ellone.

I ship Cloti, but I always had a health respect for Cloud and Aerith, and I dunno, this "haha he loves her more they are the loves 4evars" sounds kind of exactly what FFVII wasn't about. This overidealization of tropes. Like, Cloud wasn't this great, cool lonewolf- he was a socially awkward loser who failed a lot on life. Aerith didn't get to gain super earth powers and live happily with her loved ones, she died alone and with unfulfilled potential.

"Tifa is the consultation prize" to the woman who had a deep emotional connection with spanning though years, where they were deliberately in each others thoughts since before FFVII began, who he suffered and grew with, where he fought and reconciled and became a better person with, where he built his home and sense of identity with, where he made a family and rebuilt his life, where they continue to share happiness and support. "Consolation prize." Lmao.

Cloud's relationship with both girls brings out pieces of him that make him a better character and when you cheapen that, you cheapen the integrity the story was built on. But hey man, if that's your thing, don't think I can argue against you.

Everytime I try to escape LTD, someone makes a deliberately offensive argument that completely hinges on ignoring chunks of story and I come back like an addict. Someone burn this thread down so I may weep upon its ashes.1

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@at all the people who got upset about the fact that I pointed out that Tifa is only a consolation prize to Cloud and that Aeris is shown as the love of his life, I hear you guys but I just want to remind you that even thought you act offended, you can't really rebut the fact, that what I'm saying is very true indeed. It's not my fault that Nomura and Nojima chosed to do that, you know :^)

I still don't understand why Cloud can't love both girls. I mean

He's going to never date another girl ever again? Tifa or not?

LTD can go die in a fire because sans CPR mini game it is the least important aspect of the game.

Especially when people who never post here only post here to stir the pot.

For the record, I'm not denying the fact that, Cloud and Tifa hook up together at the end of FF7. There is enough proof of that. What I'm saying is that Tifa plays only second fiddle to Aeris for Clouds affection.

You insisted you aren't trolling, but your tone (as conveyed by emoji) and wording here is spurious. It looks like taunting. Which is typically done for the sake of getting a rise out of someone. That's the very definition of trolling. =P

If that's what you're doing, please insult neither my intelligence nor your own with an excuse about why the approach in your post is okay. It's just not, and that's not going anywhere. Whether you're doing it knowingly or unknowingly is the only question.

If trolling is not what you're trying to do, you will simply stop doing the above. No apology looked for or necessary. Just stop doing it.

In the interest of honest discussion, by the way, I think you could claim that it's verifiable Cloud and Aerith's connection has been referenced more than Cloud and Tifa's. Probably anyway. Seems safe to say. I've not counted them up and I don't really care enough to bother.

That's a real-world thing that one could easily check. Any inferences about it beyond that, though -- particularly ones drawing conclusions based within the fictional setting (e.g. what relationship is most important to Cloud himself) -- are going to be on dubious grounds, reflecting more the sensibilities of the person drawing them than that of either the characters or their creators.

To demonstrate my point, Cloud's relationship with Sephiroth is easily his most referenced one. It would be absurd, though, to conclude that this represents what Cloud views as his most important relationship, even though it certainly is his most important one for many fans -- and in the context of the plot viewed as a fictional construct, it absolutely is. It's easily the most iconic relationship in the game, and involves its two most iconic characters.

In much the same way, Aerith is a more iconic character than Tifa, and her relationship with Cloud is likewise. The scenes between them also are larger-than-life and more iconic -- the memorable way they meet, the Gold Saucer date (most players will get this one), her death, etc. These reasons alone are enough for the relationship to be referenced more.

Decisions based on the real world are always going to be the more reliable expectation for the thought process behind cameos and marketing than in-depth digestion of story content.

Hell, even actual story and characterization are subject to such thought processes. There's a reason the plot for Advent Children was constructed in a way that would find Cloud disconnected from others, despite his genuine friendly personality having been restored. Nomura said that he thought a distant Cloud is Cloud as most players remembered him, so that was how he was depicted on the next go around:

"At the end of Final Fantasy VII, Cloud was more of a positive, upbeat character than he had been at the beginning, but I didn't think that 'upbeat' image of him is what stuck in the minds of fans. We decided to go with a more familiar image that was consistent with the fans' view of him. The script was written to explain why he's returned to that sort of solemn mentality."

By all means, though (for real), take joy in the degree of attention Cloud and Aerith's relationship gets. That's part of why they do it to begin with!

Sorry if I've been a little bit of a dick here, by the way. I'm just kind of annoyed. I've had my name drug through all kinds of dirt for reporting stuff in this fandom that people simply didn't want to be true, and so it's frustrating as hell to see that some of those same people are now losing their goddamn minds in a frenzy of glee that the same kind of stuff is being said about the pairing they want to see it said about.

Mind giving me their names?

I won't identify who I was talking about.

"Is just a consolation prize" sounds like an immature argument meant as a consolation for shippers who's otp lost (and tbh I don't subscribe to the idea that either pairing lost). If you got to talk down a ship to make yours feel more canon, it's not a winning argument. You can make a similar argument, for example, about Locke and Celes, or Laguna and Ellone.

Kinky as that has the potential to be, I can't help but think you meant Laguna and Raine.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

I won't identify who I was talking about.

Fair enough, I do like to confront them if these was ever the same group I rolled with when everyone seem to know which pairing is canon through unofficial translations. It's a bit disappointing when you spent a few years dealing with that type of attitude only for them to do a complete 180 just cus a few lines here and there supported said pairings...

 

[Dashell]

I won't identify who I was talking about.

Fair enough, I do like to confront them if these was ever the same group I rolled with when everyone seem to know which pairing is canon through unofficial translations. It's a bit disappointing when you spent a few years dealing with that type of attitude only for them to do a complete 180 just cus a few lines here and there supported said pairings...

Honestly this could apply to a lot of people, even me. It took me a while to realize that Square really does pander to both pairings.

I used to be a "CLOTI IS CANON!" person and now I'm more of a "Think whichever you like" person. I feel like a lot of people have changed to this recently.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Which is completely ok. I'm more dismayed that Tron is coming here baiting everyone when things have calmed down. My group have tried to maintain the idea that certain aspect of the game is open-ended and up to interpretation and it was quite a struggle to deal with both group of shippers jumping to conclusions from every tidbit of information they can grab. Despite all that, we've worked hard to make sure that stance remains the same throughout the years.....There's not a lot of us anymore, and it's quite disheartening to have Tron coming here starting this shit up again because I know already that someone else will come to us and act just like him when another line/information/translation comes up and support their pairing. Thus, the cycle starts anew....

 

[Dashell]

I know what you meant... it's unfortunate that it happens all the time

It just took a few cycles for me to figure it out. Some people still haven't I think it's a nice thing for Square to do but at the same time I can't help but feel they kinda screwed themselves with the whole affection rating thing

 

[Splintered]

Which is completely ok. I'm more dismayed that Tron is coming here baiting everyone when things have calmed down. My group have tried to maintain the idea that certain aspect of the game is open-ended and up to interpretation and it was quite a struggle to deal with both group of shippers jumping to conclusions from every tidbit of information they can grab. Despite all that, we've worked hard to make sure that stance remains the same throughout the years.....There's not a lot of us anymore, and it's quite disheartening to have Tron coming here starting this shit up again because I know already that someone else will come to us and act just like him when another line/information/translation comes up and support their pairing. Thus, the cycle starts anew....

Most of us have been around long enough to have seen this before, don't let it get you down. The LTD is like FFX Spira, a calm for a while, than an annoying troll behemoth comes down, ruins everything until it goes into hibernation.

Some of us also tried to call for the quiet medium. I think Dashell worked hard on that too. I tried the same thing around 2004ish as well, but this time it was a CloudTifa fan that ruined everything. Stay around long enough and you'll probably figure out who were the people saying shit about Tres as well.

I'll forever be bitter about the koibito thing. People were kicking and screaming about Tifa being called someone's koibito, how it was actually koi bito, how it was not a romance thing, and then suddenly it was in CoL:W and now koibito was definite solid proof forever.

I'm normally not this agitated, but because of some stupid things going around somewhere else, being reminded of this makes me salty. Like, burn my corpse and use it to salt the earth, so that no longer this stale ass discussion can grow.

EDIT:

Finally got off my lazy ass and read where this all came from. Clerith in KH? Sure man, always thought they were anyway. Made sense to me. Clerith in KH, Cloti in Dissidia, everything seems good. Watched that couple video though. No Aqua and Terra, the only pairing that matters, automatically worthless. Going to bed.

 

[Dashell]

I think Dashell worked hard on that too

Yes I believe this came crashing down when I didn't acknowledge a ku or something? I don't even remember anymore

And yeah there's always one dingus who ruins it and then the whole entire side that has the guy who ruined it gets blamed, when in fact, everyone is annoyed. I wish we could all just agree to hate the annoying ones

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

I'll forever be bitter about the koibito thing. People were kicking and screaming about Tifa being called someone's koibito, how it was actually koi bito, how it was not a romance thing, and then suddenly it was in CoL:W and now koibito was definite solid proof forever.

Definitely have a very different view of that when the infamous koibito line came crashing down and although we still tried to make sure to tell everyone that the information is still unverified. A few of us may have let it spiraled out of control, mainly because of dealing with the incessant "Cloti is canon" when the reunion files was first published.

 

[null]

If SE is paying attention to any other modern choice-driven RPG franchise, they'll give the remake players full control over their waifu preferences. We've always set aside player choice in this discussion because of the weird circumstances of disc 1. But today's gamers don't tolerate their choices being ignored. Bioware learned the hard way, as did CDPR - hell, the Witcher 3 fanbase just went through the exact same LTD process. But instead of arguing about translations or caring what the books say, the Triss Merigold fans went straight to CDPR and demanded in-universe respect for their choice. And they got a patch and an apology. Such is the landscape in 2017.

Here's what I'd like to see for the FF7 remake: scrap the vague dialogue and pseudo-random points system. Let players continue to make choices after disc/game 1, and reward those choices with unique content. Do it like other modern AAA RPGs: make the players follow an obvious dialogue path, go out of their way to complete side quests, and eventually lock them in. Make it fun - let them romance Mukki if they want. It'll involve a bit of creativity given the plot, but it can be done believably. When players get replay value, shippers get squee value, and Nomura gets to stop being coy in interviews, everybody wins. If we're still attempting divination from non-source material, if we're still crowding around Reunion Files with a ruler and magnifying glass measuring the space between koi____bito then we all lose.

 

[Octo]

^I think that approach would avoid arguments re: the remake for people entirely new to FFVII.

But for the rest of us....there is no hope.

 

[Roger]

Witcher 2 was built based on the Triss choice. No we should not have had whole seperate game about Gerald and Shahi. Same with the later parts of FFVII.

 

[Dashell]

https://twitter.com/FF_NewsRoom/status/872185324041981952/photo/1

Everyone was wrong, Ariti is canon, everybody go home


(and no i don't regret bumping this for stupid shit)

 

[fancy]

I'm actually glad you did because I've been meaning to get this theory off my chest but have been avoiding bringing this thread up from the grave because of, well, it's feelings. Dunno, didn't want to be the one to open this can of worms xD

BUT OKAY OKAY, HERE I GO.

On Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Moi and TrisakAminawn were discussing the fact that Cloud didn't really seem to get on with any of the neighbourhood kids and whatnot and only seemed interested in being Tifa's friend. We also thought it was weird that Tifa and Cloud would be referred to as each other's childhood friends when they didn't seem to hang out all that much. So why was Tifa the exception?!

The assumption I always had was simply because he had a crush on her, but, again, after me and Trisak's discussion, I decided to dig deeper!

The conclusion that we eventually came to was that Cloud and Tifa must have been playmates when they were very young. Perhaps Cloud's mum would ask her neighbours to look after her son whilst she went and worked (at the grocers?! idk) because she's a single parent and single parents have to hustle etc. And so Cloud going over all the time as a little munchkin gave him and Tifa amble time to form some semblance of a bond. Tifa and Cloud might have been each other's first friends. You can certainly warrant them childhood friends at that point. Cloud probably especially valued this friendship given his seemingly natural inclination to withdraw to himself/he comes across as a shy person.

Then, as they grew older, Tifa gained her own set of friends who weren't particularly fond of Cloud and so slowly, the friendship suffered until Cloud was essentially left behind by the only person who bore any semblance of a friend to him. Of course, this friendship likely wasn't purposely or consciously severed by Tifa--she's, by nature, a sweet person, methinks. It's just one of those things that happens as you're living life. You're best friends with one person and you see it lasting forever, but then years pass and suddenly you're like strangers to each other. You don't know how it happened, but it did.

SOO! On the night that Cloud asked Tifa to meet him by the well, it could be see as a sort of final attempt to reconnect with someone he had valued as a friend. Maybe it hadn't necessarily had anything to do with a crush so much as it was about someone missing the friendship they once had with someone else. I mean, of course, the crush element can still work, but I'm so in love with the idea that the basis of their relationship is a friendship long lost.

Now picture little Cloud singing, "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman" to Tifa aaaah!!

"We used to be best buddies. And now we're not. I wish you would tell me whyyyyyy!"

Okay, I'm done, thanks everyone, you've been great.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think you're over thinking it a little. "We knew each other when we were little" is usually enough to justify the "childhood friends" description for Japanese folk.

https://twitter.com/FF_NewsRoom/status/872185324041981952/photo/1

Everyone was wrong, Ariti is canon, everybody go home

Is Tifa supposed to be in the picture too? I'm only seeing Aerith.

 

[fancy]

Lol, yeah, I have a tendency to do just that.

But then, that's part of the fun, eh?

 

[Teioh]

Is Tifa supposed to be in the picture too? I'm only seeing Aerith.

She's eating cake in a separate picture to the right of Aerith. Don't know why she isn't showing for you though.

Also more

Spoiler: Aerti proofz!

Seriously, I was dreading that someone would come along and post about the Airborne Brigade June bridal event. I'm just glad that it was to highlight the Aerti, thanks Dashell

 

[Channy]

Well I guess that settles it then.