The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Alessa Gillespie]

Disclaimer:
1. I've got friends inside
2. It's my birthday tonight
3. And I'm not wearing trainers
4. Not to mention knickers

i initially thanked this post cause of this

then i read the rest of it and was like 'oh yeah i agree with that too. i haven't for a very long while felt that cloud loving one girl or another would prevent him from loving the other girl as well.

and i still don't have any words for people who may believe cloud can have a normal and healthy relationship with a dead person. this isn't homestuck: people can't randomly show up all corporeal like in an alternate dimension and if they're a hero of time be smothered by their thousands of corpses in said alternate dimension. aerith, especially, was meant to have a death that impacted and upset players: having her be able to get up and go 'WELP that sucked hey cloud let's go bump spiritual uglies' is absolutely disgraceful to what her death stood for.

 

[Marle]

and i still don't have any words for people who may believe cloud can have a normal and healthy relationship with a dead person. this isn't homestuck: people can't randomly show up all corporeal like in an alternate dimension and if they're a hero of time be smothered by their thousands of corpses in said alternate dimension. aerith, especially, was meant to have a death that impacted and upset players: having her be able to get up and go 'WELP that sucked hey cloud let's go bump spiritual uglies' is absolutely disgraceful to what her death stood for.

^THIS.

Why bother killing off a beloved character if she can return whenever the hell she feels like it?

Aerith died.

That is the brutal truth.

She is dead.

Not coming back.

Never going to smile again, laugh again or any of that. Because she is dead.

That is the tragedy.

That is what makes it so heart warming, that is what makes the clerith pairing timeless and beautiful and sad. Because the gamer can relate. We can feel Cloud's pain when he's got her dead body in his arms. You can remember what its like for your eyes to burn when he says it. You want to kill the man who did it as much as Cloud and the rest do.

It's such a pivotal moment in gaming. Such a shocking scene. How can anyone belittle something that beautiful in a video game because it makes your ship float? idgi.

 

[Dashell]

It's such a pivotal moment in gaming. Such a shocking scene. How can anyone belittle something that beautiful in a video game because it makes your ship float? idgi.

I think it's a desperate attempt to counter, "The LT died when Aerith died" or "Cloud can't be in a relationship with Aerith cause she's dead, therefore he choses Tifa"

But yeah, not that it's not awesome to see Aerith in games like Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts or anything, but in the FF world, she's dead. And she's in the lifestream that goes around the planet, where she belongs. We've been told this... I don't see why anything else needs to be said on the matter

 

[Danseru-kun]

The sad thing is, our proofs for Cloud and Tifa being together is viewed as just a blatant excuse to invalidate Clerith just because Aerith is dead.

Maybe this is how effective Aerith's death is; people can't still accept that she's cut from the living world that debates turn sour when you mention that her death means physical separation. Her death is so painful that people are still in denial that she's totally not coming back or able to interact anymore.

On a side note, imagine if Zack can interact with Cloud even after death.

*Cloud looks at the sky and resolves to be strong. He stands up and take Zack's sword, vowing to live both their lives.*
Cloud: I will never forget you. Goodnight Zack...
*Zack's spirit pops beside Cloud*
Zack: Hey buddy! Ya like the sword?
Cloud: ...


Or if Aerith can interact with Cloud casually after her death.

*Cloud carries Aerith's body into the lake. He looks at her face the last time.*
Cloud: Goodbye Aerith... You'll forever be in my hea-
*Aerith's spirit pops up beside Cloud*
Aerith: Helloooooooo~
Cloud: AERITH!?
*Cloud accidentally drops Aerith's body in the lake.*

P.S. Sorry for using reptar twice, I like it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In response to the above, can I just say how irritating it is not to be able to respond to what other people are saying about your post elsewhere, because wow, it seems people are missing the point, Danseru you were trying to make.

Because yes, Aerith being dead is technically entirely possible to ignore when making the case pro C/T.
Because there actually IS a case pro C/T on its own that does not require Aerith negation at all.

I just wish folks would bring their complaints with posts made here, well, here, instead of quoting them and trying to dissect them from afar.

Oh, and feel free to use reptar more often.

 

[Octo]

Oh for fucks sake..... Yeah Ryu it is frustrating, there are a few things I would like to challenge but I haven't a hope in doing so.

I totally agree that someone dying would not automatically cancel out any love you had for them. I agree 100% with that.

I need proof that there was a love existing pre-death, and I'm not seeing any of that. I'm not even seeing Cloud being seriously interested in romance with anyone prior to the Lifestream sequence, and maybe not even that, maybe it wasn't until the HA Highwind scene.

I'd like to see the C/A response to why Cloud never reciprocates Aerith's affection either in the date scene or the fortune telling scene. I would really like to know what their take is on that, because I think those two scenes were the times where Cloud could have said something but didn't.

And please please please, don't respond with something about 'fireworks = tonsil hockey' because I will have to eat a small animal live if you say that. And the fireworks fadeout happens in every date (Barret you sly fox you! )

If I had the time I would go through the entire game script and pick out every word Cloud ever said to Aerith. Just to see if he ever said anything remotely romantic, because I am 100% sure that he didn't say anything of the kind.

 

[Strangelove]

Can we just bring them up here, then?

To be fair, I think the causation is less obvious in the English translation. So I don't know that this was a misquote so much as a misunderstanding. The Japanese makes it more clear, but I don't think I've seen anyone break down the Japanese version of the quote (obviously as a relative newbie to the debate I could be totally wrong, and feel free to correct me).

I'm not much of a newbie to it, and though I don't way attention to this all the time, I don't remember seeing it.

So I went and did it because I was curious:

There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colours - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. I wanted to have the sea lying beyond the horizon, and this was the best place.

道路の両側に花畑があって、その花の色はエアリスの教会に咲いている花と同じで白か黄色。地平線の向こうに海がある――とリクエストしたら、この場所が出てきたんです。

That line seems the most relevant one, so I'll just talk about that since that's the one that seems to be the problem and the translation for the first doesn't need anything added.

I think the key part is this one:
―とリクエストする

The request he made was the stuff before that, "there's the sea beyond the horizon" which is signalled with the ――と. That's what he asked for, rather than flowers. The first line about flowers ends with a full stop and the way the sentence goes I don't think it flows onto the second to read as part of the request, just that he's describing the location. If it had been like 「道路の両側に花畑があって、その花の色はエアリスの教会に咲いていると同じく白か黄色で（・と同じで）、地平線の向こうに…」 I think it would sound more like that was part of his request.

Having the flowers seems more like a happy coincidence than the intention. He was looking for somewhere with the sea visible on the horizon, and as luck would have it there were yellow/white flowers like the ones in the church there as well.

This is... what the English line is saying, really. "I wanted to have the sea lying beyond the horizon" and not "I wanted the same colour flowers as in Aerith's church, oh and the sea is in the background too!"

Trying to make it look like the flowers were the main reason for picking that location, it just looks like another in a long line of trying to make the ending credits into some massive C/A message.

(Barret you sly fox you! )

"You better not touch my Marlene, you $#*! ... Touch me instead, rookie "

The trouble with picking through the script is that you can find some romantic angle to stuff if you try. Like "I'm... we're here for you" being taken as Cloud slipping up and revealing that he has feelings for her.

 

[Octo]

Can we just bring them up here, then?

I honestly don't see why theres a problem. If we quote things and omit nothing so we can be fully transparent It would still be fair. I understand why we cant say stuff like 'OMG ALL THE CLERITHS SAY THIS ON WHATEVER.COM' because it is unfair to generalise and just breeds resentment.

Its just that members here have been quoted elsewhere where they cannot be present to defend themselves, I don't see why we can't do the same.

"You better not touch my Marlene, you $#*! ... Touch me instead, rookie "

"She's my baby girl, I gotta do it for her!"

The trouble with picking through the script is that you can find some romantic angle to stuff if you try. Like "I'm... we're here for you" being taken as Cloud slipping up and revealing that he has feelings for her.

Thats very true, but my answer to that would be. If Cloud has feelings for her, why is he hiding them? That scene takes place prior to the date and prior to the Temple of the Ancients. So if he's showing he has feelings there, but is embarassed or something.....why does he remain impassive during those other two scenes?

It just doesn't make any sense, even if the date scene was a little vague for him, the fortune telling thing is as blunt as you can get. Shes practically telling him that she wants him and he does fuck all about it?

.....

Hey I've just thought of something, lets all just debate at each other!

 

[Strangelove]

I honestly don't see why theres a problem. If we quote things and omit nothing so we can be fully transparent It would still be fair. I understand why we cant say stuff like 'OMG ALL THE CLERITHS SAY THIS ON WHATEVER.COM' because it is unfair to generalise and just breeds resentment.

Its just that members here have been quoted elsewhere where they cannot be present to defend themselves, I don't see why we can't do the same.

I wasn't even thinking quoting, just summaries the points being made against, and reply to that. It's probably the strangest discussion ever, but what are you going to do? obviously not bring them up with the people involved directly

"She's my baby girl, I gotta do it for her!"

We can't say for sure he didn't say this, I mean, look at all that black it faded to! Who knows what secrets lie within it!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh for fucks sake..... Yeah Ryu it is frustrating, there are a few things I would like to challenge but I haven't a hope in doing so.

I totally agree that someone dying would not automatically cancel out any love you had for them. I agree 100% with that.

I need proof that there was a love existing pre-death, and I'm not seeing any of that. I'm not even seeing Cloud being seriously interested in romance with anyone prior to the Lifestream sequence, and maybe not even that, maybe it wasn't until the HA Highwind scene.

I'd like to see the C/A response to why Cloud never reciprocates Aerith's affection either in the date scene or the fortune telling scene. I would really like to know what their take is on that, because I think those two scenes were the times where Cloud could have said something but didn't.

And please please please, don't respond with something about 'fireworks = tonsil hockey' because I will have to eat a small animal live if you say that.

I am so tempted to say it just to make you eat that animal.
But only if you promise to videotape it.

And the fireworks fadeout happens in every date (Barret you sly fox you! )

Hey, he's got AV, and AV lets you decide who Cloud loves, that makes him fair game!

Can we just bring them up here, then?

It's technically prohibited by the forum rules and the thread rules in specific.

I'm not much of a newbie to it, and though I don't way attention to this all the time, I don't remember seeing it.

So I went and did it because I was curious:




That line seems the most relevant one, so I'll just talk about that since that's the one that seems to be the problem and the translation for the first doesn't need anything added.

I think the key part is this one:
―とリクエストする

The request he made was the stuff before that, "there's the sea beyond the horizon" which is signalled with the ――と. That's what he asked for, rather than flowers. The first line about flowers ends with a full stop and the way the sentence goes I don't think it flows onto the second to read as part of the request, just that he's describing the location. If it had been like 「道路の両側に花畑があって、その花の色はエアリスの教会に咲いていると同じく白か黄色で（・と同じで）、地平線の向こうに…」 I think it would sound more like that was part of his request.

Having the flowers seems more like a happy coincidence than the intention. He was looking for somewhere with the sea visible on the horizon, and as luck would have it there were yellow/white flowers like the ones in the church there as well.

This is... what the English line is saying, really. "I wanted to have the sea lying beyond the horizon" and not "I wanted the same colour flowers as in Aerith's church, oh and the sea is in the background too!"

Trying to make it look like the flowers were the main reason for picking that location, it just looks like another in a long line of trying to make the ending credits into some massive C/A message.

Yeah, I was being blasted for my comments earlier about the ocean being the reason, not the flowers, and how reading the flowers as the reason was a misquote (This got turned into an accusation of quote mining somewhere along the telephone game, but I said misquote, my little lurkers, please, slag me for what I actually say, thank you.)

The trouble with picking through the script is that you can find some romantic angle to stuff if you try. Like "I'm... we're here for you" being taken as Cloud slipping up and revealing that he has feelings for her.

And not him cocking up a reassurance by having no goddamn clue what Aerith means when she says she's alone.
"How can you be alone? You're surrounded!"

Actually, ironic that. Cloud has much the same issue himself later. Aloneness due to self alienation, despite being surrounded by those who make him happy.

 

[aerbear]

I'll respond to the stuff actually addressed to me soon, Skyrim is already calling me back. But I hope maybe I can help people understand better where we're coming from.

CloTi doesn't invalidate the existence of Clerith; you don't need to disprove it to argue for Clerith.

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it. I know this sounds dumb, bear with me for a little! (please) I don't think Cloud getting with Tifa could change what he has with Aerith, but some people really want us to think differently - them damn trolls that stalk us. Not saying it's happening here, but some people act like Cloud/Tifa being canon would make us rethink everything or stop liking Cloud and Aerith. Even shippers of obviously fanon pairings don't get as much of a hard time, and to us it's like, we have as much right as everybody else.

We often see people say things like "Cloud doesn't love Aerith because CloTi is canon. You can't support your side because of this, you're crazy, etc." It feels like we wouldn't be sticking up for ourselves if we didn't debate against this, because it's where all of the hate, insults and trolling comes from, this belief that Tifa being the girl Cloud loves in canon means we're lesser people for thinking he loves Aerith. So it seems like now, it's expected of us to argue against it. It's like the only way to raise the middle finger to the trolls - anything else would feel like we're just accepting what gets said to us, and we don't. I don't think there would be as much of a problem if we were "allowed" to like what we do in peace. We venture out to Youtube, Deviant Art, and other forums but our own and people look down on us. After awhile, it feels like proving C/T isn't canon and that C/A is just as acceptable is the only thing left to do.

I never meant to put down Cloud and Tifa as a pairing. I think everybody's entitled to their own thing, if it's special to you.

P.S. (Not trying to say we're almighty victims wah cry for us. I just blame the trolls.)
P.P.S (it'd be freakin' sweet if nobody got mad at me.)

Again, strictly IMO, as always, and after this I will probably go back to just arguing about translations.

That's boring. You should give your insight too.

I just wish folks would bring their complaints with posts made here, well, here, instead of quoting them and trying to dissect them from afar.

It's scary posting here, dude. But I'm really happy you said this. Wasn't expecting to hear it.

 

[Dashell]

I don't know what points are being missed elsewhere and I also don't care enough to look. So I'm probably going to regret this and insult someone I have no ill will toward, but I feel it needs to be pointed out. Sometimes (not all the time, sometimes it's an honest misunderstanding) when the point itself isn't being addressed but is being misconstrued as something completely different, to me that says that the person misconstruing it isn't very confident combating the initial point. I think most of the debaters here are pretty good at not doing this though, just to point it out.

And yeah there are misunderstandings, especially when people are posting across boards and what not, but I feel like sometimes when I or someone else brings up a good point, the other person debating brings up a completely different point that has nothing to do with what we're talking about and sooner or later the initial point gets forgotten.


IE:

Someone will say something about romantic feelings 7 of 8 times, Cloud has Tifa in a way different than before, lifestream sequence, love marriage and family quote, Cloud and Tifa's family, blushing and smiling and blah blah and then end their argument with something like "I'm not just saying this all because Aerith died either."

and the next person will say, "But just because Aerith is dead doesn't mean Cloud can't love her." and completely ignore every other point just brought up and turn it into something about FF characters loving others that have died, which no one argued against in the first place.

Another thing I see a lot of from a lot of debaters is answering questions with questions. IE, "Why isn't Aerith mentioned by name on the FTOIL page?" is answered with, "Why was Aerith called Cloud's koibito if he really isn't?" and then of course, obligatory talk about koibito for 20 pages, and again, the original point is forgotten. I really hate it when this happens.

Bottom line:
Certain people will always try to steer the debate into a direction they're more comfortable with. However, I find it quite obvious when people are doing this and it's very revealing, so it just goes to show you how confident they are in their position.



EDIT:

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A,

You know you can enjoy CxA even though if Cloti is canon right?
and what is so scary about posting here?


It's my gelatin monster signature, isn't it?

 

[Master Bates]

And please please please, don't respond with something about 'fireworks = tonsil hockey' because I will have to eat a small animal live if you say that. And the fireworks fadeout happens in every date (Barret you sly fox you! )

Fireworks is tonsil hockey.

Now eat your small live animal.

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it.

But I see nothing wrong with shipping C/A. IMO, it is fanon but it's not crack. It's a perfectly legitimate fanon pairing and I see nothing wrong with people enjoying it. The point is, no one here is shoving CloTi on you. AFAIK, most people here just talk about the story's canon.

 

[Marle]

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it. I know this sounds dumb, bear with me for a little! (please) I don't think Cloud getting with Tifa could change what he has with Aerith, but some people really want us to think differently - them damn trolls that stalk us. Not saying it's happening here, but some people act like Cloud/Tifa being canon would make us rethink everything or stop liking Cloud and Aerith. Even shippers of obviously fanon pairings don't get as much of a hard time, and to us it's like, we have as much right as everybody else.

We often see people say things like "Cloud doesn't love Aerith because CloTi is canon. You can't support your side because of this, you're crazy, etc." It feels like we wouldn't be sticking up for ourselves if we didn't debate against this, because it's where all of the hate, insults and trolling comes from, this belief that Tifa being the girl Cloud loves in canon means we're lesser people for thinking he loves Aerith. So it seems like now, it's expected of us to argue against it. It's like the only way to raise the middle finger to the trolls - anything else would feel like we're just accepting what gets said to us, and we don't. I don't think there would be as much of a problem if we were "allowed" to like what we do in peace. We venture out to Youtube, Deviant Art, and other forums but our own and people look down on us. After awhile, it feels like proving C/T isn't canon and that C/A is just as acceptable is the only thing left to do.

I never meant to put down Cloud and Tifa as a pairing. I think everybody's entitled to their own thing, if it's special to you.

P.S. (Not trying to say we're almighty victims wah cry for us. I just blame the trolls.)
P.P.S (it'd be freakin' sweet if nobody got mad at me.)

Just wanna say, so many people who debate in here in favor of cloti actually enjoy the clerith pairing. The clerith fanclub is actually more busy than the cloti one. I know there are some nasty trolls out there and they exist on both sides.

But this forum shouldn't get branded as the cray cray cloti forum just because a few bad apples have been ruining everything. I can guarantee you nobody here is going to look down on you for preferring clerith and enjoying that couple. And if they do, you are always allowed to report them.

The forum isn't responsible for the trolls that go on youtube and say that stupid shit. The people on TLS aren't at fault for the morons that try to confront clerith fans and make them feel like idiots for shipping. And yet here we are.

Constantly being branded this evil forum swarming with cray cray cloti trolls when more than half of the forum goers barely even visit the LTD. I find it so hurtful knowing that other people are judging me based on a shipping preference when they don't even know me. I feel like I'm always branded as this bad guy because I ship cloti. Clerith fans are afraid of coming here and I truly, truly don't understand why.

Anyways, that's my rant on that.

Also, on the point Quex brought up. I believe I fall under that category. I can admit I'm not a great debater because I am iffy on some things. I barely post in here actually. Not because I don't firmly believe in what I believe in but because there are much better debaters in here who say what I want to say but better.

Not to mention, the people supporting clerith in here are highly outnumbered and I don't really feel like adding more to their full plate. I'll comment on certain things that stand out to me or that I have a specific view on. Apologies if I'm throwing the conversation off topic. Not my intention at all.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it. I know this sounds dumb, bear with me for a little! (please) I don't think Cloud getting with Tifa could change what he has with Aerith, but some people really want us to think differently - them damn trolls that stalk us. Not saying it's happening here, but some people act like Cloud/Tifa being canon would make us rethink everything or stop liking Cloud and Aerith. Even shippers of obviously fanon pairings don't get as much of a hard time, and to us it's like, we have as much right as everybody else.

We often see people say things like "Cloud doesn't love Aerith because CloTi is canon. You can't support your side because of this, you're crazy, etc." It feels like we wouldn't be sticking up for ourselves if we didn't debate against this, because it's where all of the hate, insults and trolling comes from, this belief that Tifa being the girl Cloud loves in canon means we're lesser people for thinking he loves Aerith. So it seems like now, it's expected of us to argue against it. It's like the only way to raise the middle finger to the trolls - anything else would feel like we're just accepting what gets said to us, and we don't. I don't think there would be as much of a problem if we were "allowed" to like what we do in peace. We venture out to Youtube, Deviant Art, and other forums but our own and people look down on us.

Dammit, Vendel, you're the reason we can't have nice things.

Does it really happen as much as all that, though? I'm genuinely curious here, as I rarely venture to any forums other than TLS these days. I probably haven't posted at Caves of Narshe in more than a year, and it's been a good while since I even read a thread at GameFAQs.

Life being full of responsibilities, obligations and such, as I'm sure you understand. There are occasionally still times I have to unexpectedly disappear from here for a while, though hopefully I won't have to do that again.

But back to the topic, is CxA-as-something-people-just-enjoy persecuted? Like, do a lot of people troll Clerith YouTube vids and fanart postings at DeviantArt?

'Cause to me that's dickery. I think CxA is fucking adorable. Not canon, of course; not even remotely -- and here's why!. But as a pairing, I think it's precious, particularly when it comes to KH's Cloud and Aerith.

But -- despite how crack it is -- I've always had a soft spot for VincentxYuffie as well (though VincentxShelke has been my OTP since Dirge came out And it actually isn't crack, I would argue ), and I'm also one of those pariahs who sees potential in LightningxHope. Liking a pairing is your perogative and nobody should give you a hard time over it. I'm a shipper at heart too. I got to stick everybody with somebody, and even if there's someone I don't ship with anyone else, I've at least considered it.

I guess I just find the notion altogether baffling that there are people waiting to swoop down on the fans of a particular pairing and tell them that they can't enjoy it because it isn't canon, and isn't canon because of XYZ.

Can anybody help me out? Is there a systematic persecution of CxA fans going on?

P.P.S (it'd be freakin' sweet if nobody got mad at me.)

That made me laugh.

It's scary posting here, dude. But I'm really happy you said this. Wasn't expecting to hear it.

No reason it has to be.

::pulls down "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" sign::

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm also one of those pariahs who sees potential in LightningxHope.

I can't in all good conscience thank a post that contains a statement like this.

Hard times. You're going to get them.

 

[Splintered]

Can anybody help me out? Is there a systematic persecution of CxA fans going on?

All shipping fans believe they are being persecuted. Ever. In every fandom. I do notice that C/T fans tend to be confrontational though. CxA like to stay in their communities. That's the trend. But each are dicks to each other in different ways.

and I'm also one of those pariahs who sees potential in LightningxHope.

How could you do this to me!? I thought we were friends. I cannot.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll respond to the stuff actually addressed to me soon, Skyrim is already calling me back. But I hope maybe I can help people understand better where we're coming from.


I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it.

Why, though? Does another pairing being narratively realized make your enjoyment of the other pairing less valid?
Does your pairing have to be true to be enjoyable?
Hell, a lot of the folks arguing pro-C/T ship Tifa/Kain thanks to Dissidia. And that IS a straight up crack pairing. Knowing it can never be doesn't really hurt their enjoyment of it.

Hell, I entertain crackier thoughts myself (not pairing related, just hilarious), and I know for a fact that SE will never say Richard sired Kain who sired Cid in return.
I know it will never give me a chain of descent from Cid to Cid through Rikku, even though such a thing is possible, or that Wakka and Lulu's progeny results in the Lockharts. Shit's just never gonna happen. But fuck if the thought still doesn't entertain me.

I know this sounds dumb, bear with me for a little! (please) I don't think Cloud getting with Tifa could change what he has with Aerith, but some people really want us to think differently - them damn trolls that stalk us. Not saying it's happening here, but some people act like Cloud/Tifa being canon would make us rethink everything or stop liking Cloud and Aerith. Even shippers of obviously fanon pairings don't get as much of a hard time, and to us it's like, we have as much right as everybody else.

"Trolls who stalk you?"
Would this be Tana?
And there is a difference between the way that fanon pairing shippers have acted and members of CxA and especially the associated websites have acted. And has been acting for at least half a decade that I can recall. Probably longer.

We often see people say things like "Cloud doesn't love Aerith because CloTi is canon.

I want to hit that person just for how badly their argument is formulated. That's entirely fallacious reasoning, even if the premise and the conclusion are correct, because it's a complete non sequitor.

You can't support your side because of this, you're crazy, etc." It feels like we wouldn't be sticking up for ourselves if we didn't debate against this, because it's where all of the hate, insults and trolling comes from, this belief that Tifa being the girl Cloud loves in canon means we're lesser people for thinking he loves Aerith.

Wait, what? Where is this 'belief' coming from?

So it seems like now, it's expected of us to argue against it. It's like the only way to raise the middle finger to the trolls - anything else would feel like we're just accepting what gets said to us, and we don't. I don't think there would be as much of a problem if we were "allowed" to like what we do in peace. We venture out to Youtube, Deviant Art, and other forums but our own and people look down on us. After awhile, it feels like proving C/T isn't canon and that C/A is just as acceptable is the only thing left to do.

Then A: You're doing it wrong, and more importantly B: the trolls have won.
The trolls want to provoke you into an emotional response to get a reaction out of you. Trolls are trawling for you to make a scene, and that's what you're doing when you argue anti-C/T instead of in support of your own ship.

I never meant to put down Cloud and Tifa as a pairing. I think everybody's entitled to their own thing, if it's special to you.

Yes and no.
There is a saying, I do not know the originator of it, which goes 'Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled to their own facts.'
Nearly all of us see this as a matter of narrative factuality rather than preference.

P.S. (Not trying to say we're almighty victims wah cry for us. I just blame the trolls.)
P.P.S (it'd be freakin' sweet if nobody got mad at me.)

Well, if it the trolls you blame, then it should be upon you to simply say 'fuck you, trolls,' rather than argue against people who aren't, which no one here is, I don't think. Including the Homestuck contingent.

It's scary posting here, dude. But I'm really happy you said this. Wasn't expecting to hear it.

Uh, why?
I mean, I know I'm 'the big bad evil Cloti' and what not, but shit, I'd prefer a direct butting of heads to a proxy war any day.

 

[Master Bates]

I'm also one of those pariahs who sees potential in LightningxHope.

NOT YOU, TRES!

Can anybody help me out? Is there a systematic persecution of CxA fans going on?

I think it's just a matter of how the shipper perceives the trolling.

Well, if it the trolls you blame, then it should be upon you to simply say 'fuck you, trolls,' rather than argue against people who aren't, which no one here is, I don't think.

Yeah, Fuck you, trolls! So I ship Tifa with Rufus. Problem, officers?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, Fuck you, trolls! So I ship Tifa with Rufus. Problem, officers?

That's fucking hot.

I can't in all good conscience thank a post that contains a statement like this.

Hard times. You're going to get them.

How could you do this to me!? I thought we were friends. I cannot.

NOT YOU, TRES!

That's fucking hot.

Wait, wrong pairing there.

I think it's cute, I can't help it. Granted, let the boy grow up a little first, but I see the potential.


And now I get what aerbear's saying. LightningxHope forever!~

 

[Ryushikaze]

No reason it has to be.

::pulls down "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" sign::

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

:: Puts it at the top of the forum, where it belongs.::

Though there are rumors of being able to escape if you climb down Cthulu's tentacles.
But mostly we're pretty sure that's an excuse he made up to get more snacks to devour.

All shipping fans believe they are being persecuted. Ever. In every fandom. I do notice that C/T fans tend to be confrontational though. CxA like to stay in their communities. That's the trend. But each are dicks to each other in different ways.

That was not always the case. Many moons ago when the earth was still young, there were quite vociferous advocates of C/A scarpering hither and yon to sing the praises of the ship and denounce those who would declare rival pairings to be valid-

Oh, and that's not me being overly dramatic, despite the poetic language. Back in the day, folks used to demand hard evidence Tifa loved Cloud, period. It was brutal and vicious-

and much in the way of shit was flung from all corners. There arose a group who learned the way of fire and flames, forging in their acerbity cold iron arguments and blazingly hot dialectic, they managed, if only briefly, to make their case be heard.

And this wasn't just "I like C/A" by the way, this was crazy stuff. "Cloud is a Cetra and will join Aerith and his lifestream family." was a serious and legitimate claim that was made a couple times.
Being confrontational arises as a result of seeing all sorts of wild, insane, and downright bizarre arguments. It becomes the de facto response, even when the arguments presented aren't quite so... R=U.

 

[Winter]

i can't remember what's going on in this thread
cloud/tifa is still canon or whatever yeah cloti go cloti

i just came in here to tell tres our friendship is over

 

[Danseru-kun]

In response to the above, can I just say how irritating it is not to be able to respond to what other people are saying about your post elsewhere, because wow, it seems people are missing the

Are they dissecting my posts somewhere!? I'm sad. If they are, can somebody PM me what they are saying? If that's not troublesome.

Oh, and feel free to use reptar more often.

Yay!

I agree with you a lot, really I think it has to do with "CloTi is canon lol" being shoved on us so much when we're trying to enjoy C/A, we feel the need to debate against it.

I've lurked in a lot of forums and YouTube videos and I must say that Splintered is right, all shippings feel persecution. In Cloti videos there are also Cleriths popping out of nowhere saying that C/T isn't canon. In ACC videos, whenever someone says "Cloti forever!" sometimes a Clerith will butt in and start a debate. In the Dissidia 012 Cloud/Tifa scene someone argued that Tifa is acting exactly like Aerith (hence Cloud saving her). Again, both pairings are guilty of this and yeah...

Vendel is scary in YouTube...

About persecution, I don't want to bring up some of the exchanges I had with someone recently for privacy's sake. But sometimes, Cleriths act defensively to the statement of facts. When to someone it's just a normal conversation of canon, the word "canon" seems to be a sensitive topic.

After awhile, it feels like proving C/T isn't canon and that C/A is just as acceptable is the only thing left to do.

The only thing left to do is to ignore the trolls and make them feel stupid. Ban them, block them, laugh at them or shove them awesome Clerith fanarts. If they say Aerith is a clingy flirt, don't reply that Tifa's boobs are fake. Make jokes like Sephiroth is the ultimate Cloti in canon. Trying to disredit C/T will only make things worse and make you look like an angry bunch of desperate shippers.

Also, sometimes we feel the need to point out incorrect information or quotmined statements. Sometimes the ones who do that are not even Clotis, they are just really concerned about what should fans know.

P.S. (Not trying to say we're almighty victims wah cry for us. I just blame the trolls.)
P.P.S (it'd be freakin' sweet if nobody got mad at me.)

That's pretty honest and mature.

It's scary posting here, dude. But I'm really happy you said this. Wasn't expecting to hear it.

Nobody's angry, actually we're happy to see that response.

 

[Strangelove]

LightningxHope forever!~

I am 12 years old

and what is this?

Liking Lightning and Hope interaction is one thing, because it involves Lightning and thus already has the added greatness she brings, but using that little x between the names?

I'm judging you.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I am 12 years old

14, get it right. Major difference.

and what is this?

Liking Lightning and Hope interaction is one thing, because it involves Lightning and thus already has the added greatness she brings ...

You heard it here first, folks -- hito said LxH is doubly great because it involves Lightning! This is in no way a quote mine either! You can read it right there!

So spake hito!

I'm judging you.

=(