1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.
So you admit that SE has never said that any couple is canon, yet you keep insisting that Cloti is canon. How can Cloti be canon when SE hasn't said that any couple is canon? SE has to show that Cloud and Tifa love one another non-optionally before you can claim that Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple of FFVII. So far, SE has not done that - except in your opinion.
Square has never even used the WORD canon, they heavily imply things are canon however with obvious implications of relationships between protagonists. They have never said Cecil and Rosa are canon but they're married, they have never said that Wakka and Lulu are canon but they have a child together, canon is a fanon word for what is official, these relationships, like Cloud and Tifa have been officially supported. They love eachother without any indication of option, you keep replacing the word deviation for option but they are two very separate things:
optional:
1.
left to one's choice; not required or mandatory: Formal dress is optional.
2.
leaving something to choice.
Not only is the highwind scene mandatory,(thus going against part of the definition) but based on the quotes I gave you, stating that the
HA scene has 7 quotes dictating it happening it IS not left up to the player, yuffie and voincent are not canonically left up to the player they happen, end of.
deviation
verb (used without object)
noun
1.
the act of deviating.
2.
departure from a standard or norm.
Deviating implies that there IS a norm. There is common ground before it IS deviated from said norm, that said norm is the HA scene which has been said to happen 7 times with quotes all alluding to romantic mutual interest.
Actually, the dozens of quotes alluding to the HW scene do not specify the HA version of the scene, nor has the HA version been stated to happen several times.
ALL of the quotes referring to the HW scene say only that feelings were exchanged with no specification about WHAT feelings were exchanged. The ONLY time specific feelings are suggested is when which version is specified. Some examples:
These quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa reveal feelings under the HW. None of the quotes specify which version of the HW scene. None of the quotes specify what feelings are shared under the HW.Therefore, all of the quotes above say that feelings are expressed in the LA version because none of the quotes specify which version of the HW scene is being referenced. Since none of the quotes specify a version, then all quotes are saying that feelings are conveyed in both the HA and LA versions of the HW scene.
Quex answered this quite nicely, so I'll leave this to her.
The quote using “this was due to the fact” is not saying that Cloud’s guilt is the reason why Tifa has complicated feelings. If you look at the whole passage, it’s stated in the main heading that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Aerith:
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotionS she feels towards Aerith.
You continue to say it's jealousy, but feelings is plural it's not just one thing, that's why they're complicated.
Furthermore, the sentence which starts with “This was due to the fact” is not saying that Cloud’s guilt is the reason why Tifa has complicated feelings. I asked a friend about this, who knows much more about stuff like sentence structure and grammar than me. She explained it this way:
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself,
construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
Tifas complicated feelings are the subject of the first sentence, they are addressed again in the second sentence, with this is due to the fact. If the "This is due to the fact" is not speaking of Tifa's feelings, than what IS it talking about? “This was due to the fact” goes into detail why Tifa has complicated feelingS, more than one because further in the paragraph it explain the various reasons why she has them.
This argument was based off of you still believing Tifa was jealous of Aerith even though she was dead. However Aerith does not contact ANYONE physically or mentally before Advent Children starts, CoLSW tells us this. You would have to prove that not only is her OTWTAS story inaccurate but that Aerith was communicating Cloud AND that Tifa somehow knew about it to become jealous, neither of these scenarios play out.
Not only that but Aerith being able to just continue her relationship with Cloud and all of the rest of her friends is just desecrating the meaning behind her death.
This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him.
The part about Cloud succumbing to his guilt is what is called a dependent clause, and the independent clause (or the complete thought, so to speak) is the part with Denzel. To be exact, it's what is called a "parenthetical element/phrase" (although there are other names for it, mainly the term "non-restrictive modifier") and, to quote wikipedia, "Commas are often used to enclose parenthetical words and phrases within a sentence (i.e., information that is not essential to the meaning of the sentence). Such phrases are both preceded and followed by a comma, unless that would result in a doubling of punctuation marks, or the parenthetical is at the start or end of the sentence." If they don't like wikipedia, you can also direct them to the Purdue University OWL (Online Writing Lab) where it's stated that:
“Use a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the meaning of the sentence. Use one comma before to indicate the beginning of the pause and one at the end to indicate the end of the pause.”
“Do not use commas to set off essential elements of the sentence, such as clauses beginning with that (relative clauses). That clauses after nouns are always essential. That clauses following a verb expressing mental action are always essential.”
~above explanation by Materia Thief at the CloudxAerith Forums
As Materia Thief explained above, the sentence is actually saying that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Cloud thinking that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and Cloud taking care of Denzel.
She is partially right, but the quote continues to list the reasons, and again we have to acknowledge that these are feelingS that Tifa has. The list also adds a "In addition" further explaining why Tifa had these feelings due to more than just one reason.
But there is a bridge connecting the two - it's stated that the two women are love rivals. A rival is someone who attempts to equal or surpass another:
rival, n.
1. One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor.
2. One that equals or almost equals another in a particular respect: She is his rival in sarcasm.
3. Obsolete A companion or an associate in a particular duty.
Source: http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=rival
Tifa's profile says that Tifa carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, and Aerith is said to be a love rival. As a love rival, Aerith was attempting to equal or surpass Tifa as a love interest to Cloud. Tifa's profile goes on to say in the second paragraph that this is due to the fact that Cloud thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and that Cloud is visiting Aerith's church. That sure sounds like jealousy to me.
No there isn’t, Again you’re not looking at the plural, it's more than one type of feeling, it's said to be feelingS, quoting Que on this one:
Then why does it say complicated feelings and not just "complicated feeling" if it's only jealousy? And what does jealousy prove? Rob, my BF of many years, said to me the other day he was jealous that I was spending so much time with my brother lately. This doesn't mean I romantically love my brother, does it?
How do you know that we’re supposed to take what SE says here on a figurative rather than a literal basis? I don’t remember SE saying anything about whether to interpret this passage either way.
Your grandmother was not a Cetra, and in fact, Cetra’s exist only in the world of the FFVII Compilation. Therefore, we cannot decide what Aerith’s Cetra spirit in the FFVII Compilation is able to do on the basis of what spirits in real life are able to do.
You say that Aerith does not literally live on inside of Cloud, but Nomura says in Distance that Aerith does live inside of Cloud. In the world of FFVII, it may indeed be possible, since Cloud has more Mako energy (Lifestream) inside of him than the “normal” human due to being submerged in the Lifestream for a lengthy period of time and also because Cloud was infused with Mako energy during the experimentation by Hojo.
We know it's figurative because in CoLW Aerith has her own story, and it does not include gallivanting in peoples bodies.
Spirits cannot exist outside of the Lifestream. In fact, Aerith never left the Lifestream during AC/ACC.
But let’s say that it does mean Aerith returned to the Lifestream in the manner you take it to mean. Aerith was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, was she not? If she was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, and she left the Lifestream during AC/ACC, that means Aerith is able to leave the Lifestream. So it doesn’t matter if she “returned” – AC/ACC shows that Aerith can leave the Lifestream any time she wants.
Um Sephiroth...
And you're assuming the creators gain are ignoring the HUGE sacrifice that was her death so that she could go in and out of the world of the living, even though she's never been stated to do this more than once...
Quoting Que again
And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.
Back to the current of life flowing around the planet
This quote from the 10th AU specifies the Lifestream as the current of life flowing around the planet (not inside of Cloud) and that this is where Aerith and Zack belong. This makes us conclude that Nomura was speaking figuratively because there is no evidence that Aerith lives directly inside of Cloud, but that she is in the Lifestream that's moving around the planet.
But Yuna continued loving Tidus despite the lack of an actual relationship, didn’t she? That just goes to show that an actual relationship isn’t necessary in order for someone to continue loving someone else after that person has died.
Continuing loving someone and having a relationship with that dead person are two VERY different things, which is what we were discussing, Tidus and Yuna are not in a relationship after Tidus fades away, but they do continue their relationship when Tifus comes back you know when he’s alive and can actually reciprocate.
I consider talking with Lucrecia to be continuing their relationship. However, even if you only see it as Lucrecia’s memories haunting Vincent, the fact remains that he continues to love her even though she is separated from him. Nomura even said something to that effect about Kingdom Hearts:
Question: Mr. Nomura, what did you most want to portray in [Kingdom Heart's] story?
Nomura: For the story, simply put, "connections"... I wanted to portray the idea that people are not physically connected. Well, I think that is already thoroughly incorporated in the story though. Even apart, things which are connected are still connected. ~Kingdom Heats Ultimania
That clearly implies that loved ones are not separated by death. Nomura says something very similar in the Distance interview:
The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview Nomura makes it clear that he's not just talking about Cloud's memories of Aerith. He says that Aerith's consciousness actually lives on inside of Cloud - and in the world of FFVII, that's totally possible.
And how do you know that Aerith wasn’t able to speak with Ifalna after Ifalna died? Aerith says that Ifalna spoke to her, but Aerith doesn’t specify whether or not she speaks back to Ifalna. The Ancients in the Temple of Ancients are able to speak with Aerith even though they are dead, and Aerith is able to speak back to them. Since Cloud is able to speak with Aerith during AC/ACC, then we know it’s possible for spirits to speak with the living in that universe. The warrior Seto cries when RedXIII visits him with Bugenhagen, even though he’s dead. So once again, we see the dead hearing and interacting with the living in the universe of FFVII. Vincent speaking with a “dead” Lucrecia in the Crystal Caverns during FFVII shows the dead interacting with the living in that universe. [Dead] Sephiroth speaking with Cloud and Avalanche during FFVII and AC/ACC again shows a dead person speaking with the living, so we know it’s possible in that universe.
And how is that any different from Aerith manifesting in AC/ACC? Aerith’s spirit was able to hold Cloud’s hand and boost him up during the hand reach scene, so Aerith had manifested to the extent that she is able to touch him and he is able to touch her. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm in the back to back scene, so she had once again manifested to the extent that she is able to interact with him on a physical level.
Lucrezia was not dead. ~Que
Seto was not dead, he was frozen.
You’re asking to prove negatives again, how do we know Barret doesn’t prefer the Ferris wheel to the bumper cars?
Ancients can talk to each other, because like you have said, they’re ancients..
And it is possible but you have to destroy the meaning behind death in the game and just in general, there would be no point in Aerith dying if she can just come back anytime she wants.
Like Ques said she isn’t actually there she’s not actually touching him while he’s riding a motorcycle, it’s figurative, she doesn’t manifest physically like Sephiroth because she wanted cloud to see the real her, she says this in CoLSW.
What makes you think it doesn’t continue? Aerith dying isn’t proof enough alone, since I’ve shown that spirits are able to interact with living people in the universe of FFVII. There are also several examples of living people who continue to love people who have died, in the universe of FFVII, such as Dyne and Eleanor; Barret and Myrna; and Vincent and Lucrecia.
Do you have any evidence is does? It's up to YOU to prove your points, not for us to disprove them.
Stop with the proving negatives thing, like Que said if you don’t have proof it is not valid.
And once again loving the dead and missing them is not the same as having a relationship with them.
As for where you said “the Tifa quote doesn’t”… which “Tifa quote” are you talking about? Because it seems clear to me that the love triangle HAS continued with the quote from Tifa’s profile:
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
Complicated feelings does not equate to jealousy which is singular.
None of the parts I highlighted are in past tense – in fact, they are all in present tense. So how do you know the love triangle hasn’t continued? Where does the quote say that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game?
Because that's the only time you can control Cloud to waver.~Que
In the game Cloud can only waver when Aerith is alive, there is not more affection value for Aerith if she is gone.
As I recall, you said it’s because the translation shows a one-sided relationship. Rygdea’s post
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
shows that koibito indicates a mutual relationship. The quote from CoLWhite says that Cloud is Aerith’s koibito, which means that Cloud and Aerith share that relationship. Koibito can also be translated as “boyfriend”, so if Cloud is Aerith’s boyfriend, then I’d say it’s a mutual relationship.
You refuse to look at any other part of the post than what suits you, reading farther you would find that this is not always true:
Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, hey, Billy's my koibito; while Billy might be all woah, back off woman;. However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.
Stop cutting out things, the information is right in front of you.
Untrue in the universe of FFVII.
It’s only untrue if you want to completely destroy the meaning of death and Aeriths demise, because that’s what you’re doing.
Okay, but that’s merely your interpretation. If you don’t think Aerith being engraved in Cloud’s heart means that Cloud loves Aerith, then how can you think that Cloud sharing feelings with Tifa under the HW means that he loves Tifa?
Que:
Because we've been told 7 times out of 8 that there was romance. The phrase "engraved in one's heart/mind" does not always have romantic implications. We also know because we look at the greater context of the Compilation. Cloud started a family with her, Cloud having her in a different way and blushing around her, Nojima saying they belong together (same location or not), Nojima speaking about them in the context of love, marriage and family, them having a future together ... and others. When you take all of these into consideration and not just pick them apart one at a time, it paints a picture.
Furthermore, being “engraved in his heart” is nothing like the Promise being “etched in his memory.” Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone’s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to you.
Que:
In both cases the same word is used actually.
The verb for "etched"/"engraved" used in both cases was [FONT="]刻[/FONT], with Aerith said to be engraved in his heart/mind ([FONT="]心[/FONT]) and the promise with Tifa engraved in his chest/heart ([FONT="]胸[/FONT]). It's an idiom for something one will never forget. For example:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%BF%83%E3%81%AB...m/1C262B3YS5OF0
"Game Sound engraved in [my] heart"
A list of game soundtracks.
http://www.ntv.co.jp/kokoro/
"Scenary engraved in [our] hearts"
A program showcasing different places.
http://cyblog.jp/modules/weblogs/824
[FONT="]心に刻まれた[/FONT]10[FONT="]冊[/FONT]
"10 [books] engraved in my heart"
http://b.hatena.ne.jp/entry/www.itme...3/news051.html
[FONT="]心に刻まれた不快な言葉を上書きする[/FONT]
"Overwriting the unpleasant words engraved in your heart"
http://www.city.agano.niigata.jp/shi...nihonbunri.htm
[FONT="]心に刻まれた日本の思い出[/FONT]
"Memories of Japan engraved in my heart"
That's 5 non-romantic examples. Do you have examples of it being romantic?
For reference purposes:
"[FONT="]彼の心に生涯刻まれることとなる古代種の血を引く少女[/FONT]" (Aerith quote)
"[FONT="]胸にきざまれたティファとの約束[/FONT]" (Tifa quote)
So both could be engraved in his heart depending on who translates it.
If Aerith is Tifa’s love rival, then they are in a love triangle with Cloud. If Cloud is in a love triangle with Tifa and Aerith, then his feelings are wavering between both girls. Nowhere does it say that the Love Triangle ends when Aerith dies. In fact, the date mechanism influences which version of the HW scene you get, so the date mechanism continues influencing the events in Disk Two, which shows that the Love Triangle is still at work at that time.
This has nothing to do with what I asked; I questioned why you brought up a quote about Tifa and Aerith having feelings for Cloud, when what needs to be addressed is why there are no quotes about Cloud reciprocating any type of feeling for Aerith.
No it’s no the koibito line because I’ve discussed this but you continue to ignore parts of the post that don’t suit your fancy
And no it’s not a commercial from a third party company.
You have failed to actually answer the question. You’re avoiding it.
All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn’t been provided to us yet.
Que:
I have found this but I'm afraid it doesn't say what you thought it did.
[FONT="]クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。[/FONT]
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.
It's a caption in Aerith's profile, top right corner of page 29. 'Fond of' is the old standard for having (the foundations of) a romantic interest in someone. The [FONT="]親しい仲[/FONT] part might have been where they got 'something between them' from, I'm not sure.
But it’s not just like the Promise, since it’s said in Cloud’s profile that the Promise is etched in his memory, which implies something that he remembers like someone’s name or a definition or an email address. Being engraved in his heart is something that he has an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to him.
Que: See above. And once again, the phrase is used for something that you don't forget. There isn't automatically romantic implications. And again, I've seen you use the official translation of the koibito quote in reunion files countless times and dismiss fan translations. Please pick a constant stance on whether or not fan translations should be used.
A picture of the Clerith date labeled as optional and a picture of the HW scene labeled as optional under a title of “Love Between Heroes” on the FTOIL page IS a quote which shows that love between the two heroines is optional. That’s what the FTOIL page is saying. So is the quote from Kitase about the hero wavering between the two heroines. Kitase never says that Cloud only wavers between the two heroines at the beginning of the game. Another thing reinforcing the idea of love being optional are the statements in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO about there being two versions of the HW scene, one being low affection and one being high affection. The fact that there is a high affection and a low affection version in itself says that Cloud loving Tifa is optional, especially when there is nothing in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively shows that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.
Again you’re ignoring the fact that no where does it say the love is reciprocated between Cloud and Aerith on ANY page of that Ultimania, and the fact that it is talking about all 4 dates. This is your opinion.
When one part of the wavering triangle is cut off, you cannot waver anymore in terms of points. Aerith's affection values do not continue in the game, if she is not present.
Deviations do not mean there isn’t a canon outcome, having 3 endings in ffX-2 does not mean there is not a canon outcome, 7 quotes disagree with you, and support the reasoning that there IS in fact a canon outcome.
SE has never stated that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon OR default. This is merely an opinion you and other Cloti’s have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the HA version is canon (except in your opinion). Same with your assertion that Cloti is canon. SE has never stated that Cloti is canon, and there is absolutely nothing which happens after the HW scene in the Compilation which conclusively proves your assertion that Cloud loves Tifa romantically on a non-optional basis. There is also no statement in the Ultimania’s which can only mean that Cloud loves Tifa romantically on a non-optional basis after the HW scene.
Yes they have, 7 times Quex has stressed this above.
Yet, you want me to provide conclusive evidence that love is optional between the two heroines. I have provided evidence that’s every bit as valid as the evidence you’ve provided. I have also provided evidence that Cloud is able to love Aerith on an optional basis that’s every bit as good as the evidence you’ve provided.
No you have had to make up a scene to prove that the scenes you’re describing are optional, and continue to mesh the meaning between deviation and optional. You have yet to actually provide a quote that says Cloud love Aerith optionally based on x, y, and z, and that it is on the FTOIL page.
Just because you don’t agree with my evidence doesn’t prove that you’re right, and just because I don’t agree with your evidence doesn’t prove that I’m right.
You’re using the term evidence pretty loosely. I’m not disagreeing with evidence of any kind, I’m disagreeing with your interpretation. Your interpretation has shown you to make up a scene that has never existed nor does it have any evidence of existing, your interpretation has made Tifa out to be strictly jealous even though the complicated feelings described is plural, and your interpretation relies more on the words of a third party commercial that is about as valid as a Red Bull commercial in terms of fact.
And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?
The words static are not use, and the words canon are not used either, but the events that happened follow the way Cloud reacts, events that are said to have happened are the choices of static Cloud, who does not take into account any optionality in the game, static Cloud has Yuffie and Vincent on his team regardless of what you as a player do, and static Cloud experiences the Ha scene with Tifa regardless of what you as a player has chosen, these choices that Static Cloud makes are supported by quotes.
And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct. I won’t say that your theory isn’t possible because I think both your theory and my theory about Cloud’s love interest are possible.
So my reasoning is skewed when I have 7 quotes indicating romantic feelings (and therefore the HA scene) while you’re reasoning is valid even though you have to make up a scene that never happened?
Makes plenty of sense to me. Since Cloud’s actions toward Tifa determine the amount of affection she has towards Cloud, then Cloud’s actions represent how he feels about Tifa.
So rolling the wrong barrels means he hates Aerith regardless and doing the same action to Barret(which makes his affection go up) is totally valid.
Who says he doesn’t like her?
Your logic Is that if it lowers affection points than it means they dislike each other, you have said this, than why is Cloud depending on Tifa(which is something positive) equal a negative outcome -3 Tifa?
I believe I already explained why when I referred tp Rygdea’s post:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word [koibito] and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). ~Rygdea’s post
Rygdea says that koibito indicates a mutual, not one-sided, romantic relationship. Therefore, the usage of koibito in CoLWhite would indicate a mutual romantic relationship between Aerith and Cloud.
And may I remind you that you provided me with the link to Rygdea’s post, so it was you who selected it as a reliable source.
May I continue to remind you that you have blatantly ignored the rest of his post and only selected the parts that you support?
Because love beyond death is possible in the universe of FFVII. I already discussed that topic in more detail above.
“ “ “
Where does it say that Cloud wants Tifa in a different way than before? Or is that just your opinion?
Do you read the posts I send to you collectively? Because I sent this to you awhile ago.
1. Blushing around Tifa is no proof that he loves her. After all, blushing can be due to embarrassment.
So he's embarrassed that he has Tifa in a way that's different than before?~Que
2. Cloud supports Aerith, too, in more than one scene. Some examples:
No one said he doesn’t she’s his friend
3. As for Cloud knowing when Tifa’s not being herself, Sephiroth could tell the same thing: Does that mean Sephiroth’s in love with Tifa?
What are you talking about?
4. Raising a family together does not indicate in and of itself that Cloud and Tifa are in love. Let’s say that Barret and Tifa were living in the Seventh Heaven with Denzel and Marlene. Would you think that Barret and Tifa are in love just because they’re bringing up Denzel and Marlene? Would you think Barret and Tifa were in love if they started calling that group a family?
Yes, honest to Dr. Doofenshmirtz I would. If Cloud was NOT there, living on his own somewhere, and it was JUST Barret and Tifa, and Barret brought Denzel home and said, "I felt Aerith or whoever lead Denzel to our home" and was blushing around her and she was asking him "Do you love me" and Nojima said they belonged together and they had 7 quotes saying they had romantic feelings for one another and stuff. Yes Yes i WOULD think they were in love.~Que
I’ve heard of an older brother and sister being left in charge of the kids after their parents died. Does that mean the brother and sister are in love? Would it mean the brother and sister are in love if they started calling that group a family?
No, no I wouldn't. The brother and sister (I'm assuming) don't blush around each other, they don't have 7 quotes of romantic feelings for one another, Nojima didn't say they belonged together of speak of them in the context of love marriage and family... they don't have each other in a different way... etc etc...~Que
Tifa specifically said that the family was made up of friends. She has also stated that their family is not a “real” family, and has mentioned more than once that she hoped they would become a “real” family. Marlene invited Cloud into the family – the family wasn’t Cloud’s idea. In fact, the family seemed to exist before Marlene invited Cloud into it:
Then you have to look at the final family picture on Cloud’s desk in the movie. The photo makes it clear that the family is all of Avalanche, including Aerith since the flowers which represent her (as stated by Nomura) are sitting in front of the photo:
The family of friends was AVALANCHE, NOT the same family with Marlene, Denzel and Cloud. She speaks about the friend's "sins". What are Marlene and Denzel's sins if they are the family of friends she speaks of?~Que
Marlene says that she’ll put Cloud in our family, so the family already exists when she puts him into it. I’m not sure if Marlene thinks the family is just herself and Barret, or if Marlene thinks the family is herself, Tifa, and Barret - but Cloud isn’t part of the family until Marlene invites him into it.
So why are we listening to only Marlene and not Square when they say the family does not include Barret or when they say the family is Cloud and Tifa's? Marlene was just being cute here. Hell I dunno, maybe she was drawing a picture at the time. But you can't just take Marlene's comment, and ignore every other piece of evidence that says the family is Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel
-When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. [Barrett is right there and is not mentioned]
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-Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.
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-With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward
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-The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they [Cloud and Tifa]were forming in Edge.
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-Cloud and Tifa's new family [member]
Although he's [Denzel] only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong.
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-After the meteor disaster, she's [Marlene] living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.
If you want to look at just what Marlene says, what about Denzel? He obviously doesn't think about Barret as part of the family. He didn't know who he was in AC/C. When he speaks about the people who help him in CoD (Two years after AC/C) he doesn't mention Barret. I would think he would if he thought of Barret as family. (I wanted to say this to you on CxA but... I didn't really feel like posting it there)~Que
I put this picture to point out that the “original” family photo of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel has been replaced by a “new” family photo with all of Avalanche with Aerith’s flowers sitting in front. To me, that says that all of Avalanche – including Aerith - is considered part of the family now.
I think it means Cloud loves his friends, but I don't really want to talk about opinions and such.~Que
Furthermore, Aerith says in MotP that she and Cloud would be seen as family or lovers after she confesses her love to him. (Note: SE already said that Aerith confessed her love to Cloud during the Clerith date scene, but I guess they wrote it that way for people who didn’t get the Clerith date scene. Sorta like the only time they say that Cloud and Tifa have mutual feelings of love is in the HA HW scene.) At any rate, notice that Aerith says family OR lovers – she doesn’t seem to think the two necessarily go together.
Hito:
Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love.
クラウドへの未練が、自分を”はっきり”させているのかも知れない。そうやって、家族や恋人にひと目会おうと――愛していたと告げようと、遠い地で死んだ人の魂がやってく るのを、ミッドガルでの生活の間に彼女は何度か感じていた。
- Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here.
Maybe her attachment to Cloud is keeping her 'clear (solid/etc)'.
クラウドへの = ~ towards Cloud
未練が = lingering attachment (towards something) [which is the agent of the following verb shown by the が]
自分を = herself [which is the object of the verb as indicated by the を]
”はっきり”させている = to be made 'clear' (as opposed to the other souls in the Lifestream)
のかも知れない = maybe, perhaps
- Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers...
The problem here is that this is part of a much longer sentence (the rest of this quote is all one sentence), which has been split up and misconstrued.
そうやって = in that way (having lingering attachments to the world)
家族や恋人に = family and lovers (and others) [which is the subject/target of the following verb shown by the に]
ひと目会おうと―― = to see once more [～よう（おう）と meaning something they are trying to do, and the dash leave it trailing and connects it with the next line]
- During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love.
The first part is fine (up to 'many souls'), but it's the end where it loses it. Which happens to be the beginning of the Japanese sentence.
愛していた = was in love with, did love, loved
と告げようと = try to tell [family/lovers/etc.] [the first と showing what they were to say/tell, the stuff before it, and the second と being to show they were trying to do something as with above]
遠い地で = in distant lands
死んだ人の魂が = souls of people who died [in distant lands] [が again]
やってくる = arriving [coming to the place she was]
のを = [のを making this whole lot that has come before into the subject of the sentence's final verb]
ミッドガルでの生活の間に = during her life in Midgar/while living in Midgar
彼女は何度か感じていた = she had felt/sensed numerous times [the thing that was marked with のを]
Put into a more readable English rendition, it could be something like this:
Numerous times during her life in Midgar she had sensed the souls of people who had died in distant lands coming to try to see their family or lovers one last time--to tell them that they loved them.
That’s only your opinion. Your opinion has not been validated by SE.
And you making up of scene that never existed is?
As I understand your argument for this, you think the HA scene happens regardless of what version other players get in the game because 1) you think the HA version is used in story summaries,
It’s not a matter of THINKING they are I’ve given you evidence that SAYS that it is.
2) you think only the HA version is given in scripts, and 3) you say the HA HW scene is listed as an important scene in the game, and 4) you think that only pictures of the HA version are used.
I never said anything about scripts? It IS listed as one of the most important scene sin the game, and I don’t remember talking about pictures, I don’t care about the pictures as much as I do about the text.
First of all, not only the HA version is used in story summaries. Actually, both the LA and HA versions are used in story summaries:
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198, story summary
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary
None of those story summaries is about the HA version only. In order for the HA version to be specified, it would have to say that they confirm feelings of love. What feelings they confirm are not specified, so it could mean they confirm feelings of friendship or trust or support or something other than love. Therefore, those summaries refer to both the HA and the LA versions of the scene.
I have given you translations where the feelings of desire are said to be expressed in 7 quotes, so 7 quotes are talking about the HA highwind scene.
Second, not only the HA version is used in scripts. A script of the LA version is included in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.
Third, is it only the HA HW version listed as an important scene? I don’t know the exact wording of what it says, but I would suspect it’s like what’s said in the story summaries. If it’s like what’s in story summaries, then it’s referring to both versions, not just the HA version. Even if it is the HA version, I don’t see how that makes the HA version canon.
That’s like saying: flour is the only important ingredient in a cake, it’s not but it’s still pretty darn important. It’s important and it has 7 quotes saying that it happened. It’s not referring to both versions if it’s specifically talking about the Ha version seriously..
4) Not only pictures of the HA version are used. The pic on the FTOIL page is from both versions. I’ve also seen a pic from another source of Barret standing on the deck of the HW that was said to be used in a story summary (not sure which one). IIRC, I believe that pic of Barret is used in both versions.
One: pictures don’t matter, but for arguments sake find me a picture of this.
You can’t in real life, but it’s totally possible in the world of FFVII.
Once again disregarding Aeriths death and it’s importance.
At the top of the picture, where it says page 232. If you turn to page 232, it says:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
SE could just as easily have put the word “optional” instead of page 232 – same difference.
And it doesn’t so we have to use what we’re given, which means not making up scenes and pretending to know the reasoning behind Squares wording.
On page 232 of the 20th AU, and in the FFVII Ultimania Omega where it talks about Deviations:
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
Both paragraphs state that the HW scene diverges into two conditions according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. The High Affection and Low Affection versions are both mentioned. That means the scene is optional depending on Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud.
Once again divergence does not mean optional.
The Deviations are explaining the options. The options are Low Affection and High Affection. Cloud does not love Tifa romantically in both versions. Therefore his romantic feelings for her are completely optional.
He also doesn't love Aerith in either version (or doesn't have to)~Que
I find it very arguable for several reasons:
1) The FTOIL page has two pictures for FFVII that show Cloud with two different women.
2) Both pictures on the FTOIL page are listed as optional scenes by having the Deviations pages listed.
3) Cloud’s the only hero on the FTOIL page shown with two females.
4) Cloud’s pictures are the only pictures on the FTOIL page listed as having deviations.
5) There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.
6) The only reason for the Clerith date scene to be pictured on the FTOIL page is because the title “Love Between Heroes” pertains to the picture.
7) SE has never officially confirmed that Cloti is canon.
8) SE has never confirmed that the HA HW scene is canon.
9) Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that the HA HW scene happened instead of the LA version.
10) Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.
All of these have been addressed above.
Actually, he says right smack dab in the middle of the quote that the ending of KH can answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII:
But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140
And how exactly does Cloud look depressed at the end? Doesn’t look depressed to me, especially in comparison to how he looks earlier in the game.
And you ignore the "it’s sort of like a sidestory part", as well as the quote used previously saying that they’re separate stories..And why the fanart? Seriously just use a screenshot..
Actually, it is described that way on the Deviations page when it describes the scene as apathetic. Apathy = indifference. They are both indifferent to having a romantic relationship with each other.
And you only had to make up a scene for this reasoning of your to become valid.
It’s only your opinion that a conversation like that would take more than a few seconds to sort out. It can easily be sorted out in a few seconds, especially if both people feel the same way.
Cloud: Just to be clear, I don’t want to be anything more than friends with you, Tifa.
Tifa: That’s fine, Cloud. I feel the same way.
All sorted out, and it only took a few seconds. It’s called “mutual feelings”.
Another made up scene:
Imma quote JayM here:
in order to make this argument you have to prove:
1. that the conversation went beyond what we saw
2. that the theorized extended dialogue was a confirmation of friendship
and if you want to really make this a point FOR Clerith
3. that the reason Cloud would only want to be friends is because he is in love with Aeris, to the exclusion of being in love with Tifa.
The thing is, this did NOT happen in the game. I don't understand why a conversation that didn't happen in the game, that you wrote yourself, keeps getting brought up as evidence. Those quotes are talking about what we see in the game. There's differences between the talk that we see between Cloud and Tifa in both versions. You have a script of both on your site, they're different from one another. When Square says, "The conversation is different." they mean the conversation that took place within the game.
Don't let the trolls on either side ruin it for you. In the LTD, it's unavoidable for others to be confrontational, because... it's a debate. If you jump into it, it's assumed that you are here to challenge other people's ideas and discuss it with them, and they are going to do the same thing too. That doesn't mean that they think you shouldn't ship C/A anymore. They are not trying to convert you or make you like C/T. They are just bringing up points on how and why they think C/T is more supported by the compilation, but I'm sure they have no problem with you liking C/A. 
