The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Well what I meant was since the start of the compilation, they have been a bit vague about the nature of Cloud and Tifas relationship, when they could have shown them married, or having kids, or doing unspeakable sexual acts to each other :monster: I think they did this precisely because they didn't want to upset C/A fans.

FFVIII was meant to be a love story from the outset, unlike VII. So in the OG the romance thing wasn't that much of a big deal. I think they were going with that anime cliche of the 'harem' hence Yuffie is also available on the date (and Barret!) and honestly I don't think they we're thinking to hard about the whole thing. Yeah Cloud never said anything as unambiguous as Squall did, but I think that's because despite being moody buggers, they are two different characters, and VIII had a definite focus on romance.

Plus, Quistis later acknowleges that her feelings for Squall were down to her confused memories, and she was never really overt about it anyway. Maybe if Quistis had actively pursued Squall we would be seeing debates cropping up :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Well what I meant was since the start of the compilation, they have been a bit vague about the nature of Cloud and Tifas relationship, when they could have shown them married, or having kids, or doing unspeakable sexual acts to each other :monster: I think they did this precisely because they didn't want to upset C/A fans.

FFVIII was meant to be a love story from the outset, unlike VII. So in the OG the romance thing wasn't that much of a big deal. I think they were going with that anime cliche of the 'harem' hence Yuffie is also available on the date (and Barret!) and honestly I don't think they we're thinking to hard about the whole thing. Yeah Cloud never said anything as unambiguous as Squall did, but I think that's because despite being moody buggers, they are two different characters, and VIII had a definite focus on romance.

Plus, Quistis later acknowleges that her feelings for Squall were down to her confused memories, and she was never really overt about it anyway. Maybe if Quistis had actively pursued Squall we would be seeing debates cropping up :monster:
Instead we got R=U and Well Organized Time Compression and Dead Squall.
Things don't have to have validity to be argued for a long time even well after they're debunked.
 
Plus, Quistis later acknowleges that her feelings for Squall were down to her confused memories, and she was never really overt about it anyway. Maybe if Quistis had actively pursued Squall we would be seeing debates cropping up :monster:
Okay then, Eiko/Dagger and Zidane! :P

You said you were talking about the whole compilation, which is fair enough, but as I mentioned, I don't know about any of that.
 
AKA
Minato
Plus, Quistis later acknowleges that her feelings for Squall were down to her confused memories, and she was never really overt about it anyway.
Really? I accepted RinoaxSquall as the obvious canon pairing anyway, but they twisted Quistis' attraction to Squall into sisterly feeling leftover from their childhood? That's lame.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Really? I accepted RinoaxSquall as the obvious canon pairing anyway, but they twisted Quistis' attraction to Squall into sisterly feeling leftover from their childhood? That's lame.
Correction- Quistis twisted her attraction to 'I was just feeling sisterly, Ha ha, you believe me, right'

Which is slightly different. It's Quistis telling you that that's what had happened, but also remember, Quistis isn't much older than you and kinda emotionally messed up in her own way.
 
Correction- Quistis twisted her attraction to 'I was just feeling sisterly, Ha ha, you believe me, right'

Which is slightly different. It's Quistis telling you that that's what had happened, but also remember, Quistis isn't much older than you and kinda emotionally messed up in her own way.
Wait, when is this? I always assumed they just wrote it out and forgot about it. Like they did with her character for the most part.

... poor Quistis.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Wait, when is this? I always assumed they just wrote it out and forgot about it. Like they did with her character for the most part.

... poor Quistis.
Well, it is a single line she delivers near the end of the game, and I am paraphrasing it, but I always read it as a rationalization, rather than the true and honest reason.
 
AKA
Noctis
That's the same way I feel about Quistis too, Ryu. I never really believed she mistook her feelings for Squall as sisterly out of seemingly no where, for a second. =/ Maybe it really was just bad writing, but if I recall after she made the statement she had said something about doubting herself idk. It's been awhile, lol. In any case, I felt like she genuinely loved Squall and then like you said, decided to kid herself. Beforehand she said she knew it was over when Rinoa walked in.

It's depressing.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Really? I accepted RinoaxSquall as the obvious canon pairing anyway, but they twisted Quistis' attraction to Squall into sisterly feeling leftover from their childhood? That's lame.
Similar to Yuki "I was only attracted to you because I needed a mother figure in my life" Sohma
 
I haven't had time to respond to everyone's critiques yet. I don't have very much free time these days and in hindsight, it would have probably been better to have waited to engage in a debate that people feel so passionately about (myself included).

It would be easier for me to reply to each of you individually, but I feel every response I give will be swarmed by numerous Cloti supporters. So I might write an extremely long response to everyone at once. This might take me several days, if I find the time to get around to it. I recently graduated from college and I'm in the process of moving home and finalizing all of my graduation plans.

But I did stumble on a post I found on tumblr the other day. It offers an interesting perspective that I'm confident most of you will disagree with. I expect there to be numerous responses "proving" this post wrong. But I still think it's great food for thought :)

Here it is:
I wonder if people really do understand the point of it? I do feel a huge sense of Clerith hints are played out, completely. Here’s my take on it:

Let’s start with where Final Fantasy VII ended off. Cloud and co. defeated Sephiroth and the planet was being attacked by Meteor. Cloud has this vision of a woman’s hand (Aerith’s hand) reaching out to him. He knows in his heart that it is Aerith, and so he reaches back, excited to see her. In reality, Aerith was leading him to Tifa’s hand to protect him from imminent death. Before they plummet to the center of the planet and what would be their demise, Cloud tells Tifa that he can “find her there.” At the Promised Land, and that he was going to look for her (Aerith.)

As the Lifestream spurts out of the planet to stop Meteor, it is realized that it is the cause of Aerith gathering all the consciousness within the planet. Before the scene finishes, we see an image of Aerith, and then the credits roll.

Two years pass. We have questions unanswered: What became of AVALANCHE afterwards? Did Cloud ever go on his search for Aerith? And if you watched the 500 years epilogue, how did Nanaki find his mate?

Advent Children was meant to answer at least the first two. Cloud has fallen into this trap of depression. He has placed himself at fault for everything that happened to two people whom he cherished with all his heart. They made him stronger, and yet, he could do nothing when they met their fate. Cloud was afraid of being happy, because he could lose it all again. There is no denying that Cloud was indeed content with his situation, but there is still the fact that Aerith lingered in his heart, that she consumed his thoughts.

Cloud would stay at Aerith’s church. He found some sort of comfort there, because he could feel closer to her. Completely normal behavior for someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. He was coping the best way he knew how; all alone. Cloud had been all alone most of his life, and when he became close to people, terrible things happened. He didn’t want to be the cause of another loved one’s demise.

Then Cloud meets Denzel. He is completely convinced that Aerith brought this little boy to him. That Denzel was like his and Aerith’s child, and that Cloud needed to protect him. He did what he knew to do best, and that was to take him back to 7th Heaven. He couldn’t keep the child at the church, and Cloud didn’t know the first thing about caring for a child. Tifa had cared for him when he was sick, so it would be perfectly logical to send the child to her who had experience with children already (Marlene).

If you ask me, there is a huge sense of Tifa being extremely insensitive to Cloud’s pain and his way of thinking. The two have little to no communication between the two of them, and when they do, Tifa takes on a much more motherly role over him. He’s afraid to tell her things that no one should have to be afraid to tell someone. He’s awkward and even talks to Tifa like he’s in need of her permission for things. He talk to her like he’s a child and she’s the adult. It’s very strange. Tifa even treats Cloud like a child. She often scolds him and tells him he’s wrong. When he tells Tifa that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, Tifa “corrects” him and says she brought him to the both of them, to which Cloud doesn’t respond (iirc).

She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion. Why is he not allowed to continue to love his lost mage and still be a part of their family? That’s almost like marrying a widow (if you indeed believe Cloud and Aerith had a romantic relationship) and then telling him to completely forget about his first wife, whom he would STILL be with had they not died. It’s just terrible.

Throughout the movie, Tifa is very forceful on Cloud to get better, whereas Aerith merely encourages him to realize that life goes on, she is still by his side, and he isn’t at fault for anything that happened. Tifa just doesn’t get it. “Look at you, you think you’ve got it so damn hard!” That’s not what he’s upset about! He’s in a state of mourning and fear! Losing loved ones is hard! Of course you want him to move on, that’s understandable, but forcing him to put a smile on his face won’t be what gets him back on his feet. Healing takes time, and longer for some.

I think Advent Children really does show you just how incompatible Cloud and Tifa really are. They have little to no communication and both think the other is a totally different person. They know next to nothing about each other, and Tifa has no idea how to handle Cloud when he’s at his worst. Ever since the promise at the well, she has forced him into a role that he wasn’t ready for.

Eventually, Cloud starts to crawl his way back up to some form of contentment. He’s hesitant, but his visions of Aerith help encourage him. The children in danger that he cares about are also a part of that. He is beaten, still a weak-willed man scared of failure. So scared, in fact, that his actions are shaky and unstable. He’s so unsure of himself.

Soon, he builds up the courage to fight. You know why? Because of Aerith’s words of encouragement and even her slight teasing of his self-blame. “Dilly dally shilly shally! Isn’t it time you did the forgiving?” She never blamed him for her death. Not even once. The fact that she found he was being silly is probably what made him realize just how much she meant those words. He had been forgiven, and now the only person’s forgiveness he still needed was his own.

He charges on to finish old business, defeat this monster-man who had actually been to blame for all the sadness he and his comrades and fallen loved ones had had to endure. He was ready to end it all, build a bridge and move on. Though he is defeated unexpectedly (shot by Loz and Yazoo), it is not his time to leave the planet.

And where does he wake up? In his Promised Land, which is in Aerith’s church, which is also Aerith’s Promised Land. This is the place that has always offered him comfort, healing, serenity, and warmth. It only makes sense that her church would be his paradise. And when he wakes in his paradise, all those who adore him are there waiting for him, including Aerith and Zack. He has just seen two ghosts, and his face lights up. Even though they are gone, they are still there for him during his high moments, his low moments, and all in between. He wasn’t alone and he never would be. He’s finally forgiven himself.

Advent Children is a movie about forgiveness, moving on, life after death, and knowing that just because we have lost someone very dear, they continue to live on within our hearts. The ones we love will never die so long as we hold them close to our hearts. That is what Advent Children is about. IMHO, it’s telling us the Aerith and Cloud can NEVER be separated. She continues to live on in his heart, in his very soul. They share the same Promised Land, the same world.

What gets me about Cloti’s is that they always (at least, a great deal of them) claim Cloud is such an asshole to Tifa, so why do you fight so hard that they are the canon coupling? I just don’t get it. Why would you think that they’re meant to be? It’s not even about whether Tifa is good for Cloud, but is Cloud good for Tifa? He doesn’t know how to handle her and her worst, either. He doesn’t know her, either. Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings. She needs someone like Zack. Zack and Tifa would be such a great match, they really would. It breaks my heart that so many just can’t seem to see that.
Disclaimer: I don't agree with everything in this post, but it is an interesting perspective. :)
 
AKA
Noctis
What gets me about Cloti’s is that they always (at least, a great deal of them) claim Cloud is such an asshole to Tifa, so why do you fight so hard that they are the canon coupling? I just don’t get it. Why would you think that they’re meant to be? It’s not even about whether Tifa is good for Cloud, but is Cloud good for Tifa? He doesn’t know how to handle her and her worst, either. He doesn’t know her, either. Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings. She needs someone like Zack. Zack and Tifa would be such a great match, they really would. It breaks my heart that so many just can’t seem to see that.
This is the only thing that really irks me about that post. It's not that Cloud is an asshole to Tifa really, it's just that he doesn't make the best choices. You can't really blame him for it, considering all that he's going through. Throughout this, Tifa supports him and the two of them over come their obstacles together and grow stronger because of it. The appeal of Cloti, is that Cloud and Tifa do not make a perfect relationship. It has bumps in the road that make it interesting. They've always supported one another through their weakest times and their best times. I disagree that Cloud doesn't know Tifa. I actually think the two share very similar personalities (they are both reserved, place the blame on themselves) which makes them very understanding of each other. In Case of Tifa, Cloud says he'll remind Tifa of who she really is... I think that goes to show that Cloud knows her well. And Tifa well - she knows Cloud more than anyone else, and that's not just my statement either but an official one as well.

People seem to think that Tifa's 'princess desires' go beyond when she was a kid, lol. When she was a child/teen she wanted a knight in shining armor and then soon after stated that she can't just sit around waiting and decided to fight. She has claimed Cloud to be her Hero - and the most important thing to her in the *entire* world. She has grown from when she was a child with idealistic fantasies. Some of them remain (like wanting a hero, keeping a promise) but she sees all of the positives in Cloud, and accepts the negatives.

I do not see why people seem to think that Tifa is better off with Zack. From a fanon stand point, I see the appeal of it. I like Zack x Tifa. I think that he fits her view from when she was a child, I think if they had interacted more they could have become closer friends... but the last memories Tifa has of Zack? Is her saying she hates him out of spite towards ShinRa. All the times she spoke with Zack, she asked about Cloud. Zack calls her ' a strange girl ' and isn't really flirty with her like the way he is with other girls. So in game, no, I don't see Zack x Tifa at all.
 
AKA
Minato
Advent Children was meant to answer at least the first two. Cloud has fallen into this trap of depression.
The depression started just after the first or second anniversary of Aerith's death.

Cloud was afraid of being happy, because he could lose it all again. There is no denying that Cloud was indeed content with his situation, but there is still the fact that Aerith lingered in his heart, that she consumed his thoughts.
He started a business, got a hobby, started another business that's more then being content, he's was moving on more then Tifa.

Cloud would stay at Aerith’s church. He found some sort of comfort there, because he could feel closer to her.
He would visit Aerith's church (before he started dying).

Completely normal behavior for someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. He was coping the best way he knew how; all alone. Cloud had been all alone most of his life, and when he became close to people, terrible things happened. He didn’t want to be the cause of another loved one’s demise.
What happened to every so distant childhood acquintance.

He couldn’t keep the child at the church,
Cause he wasn't living there, and had a job.

and Cloud didn’t know the first thing about caring for a child. Tifa had cared for him when he was sick, so it would be perfectly logical to send the child to her who had experience with children already (Marlene).
Cloud and Tifa were raising Marlene together.

If you ask me, there is a huge sense of Tifa being extremely insensitive to Cloud’s pain and his way of thinking. The two have little to no communication between the two of them, and when they do, Tifa takes on a much more motherly role over him. He’s afraid to tell her things that no one should have to be afraid to tell someone. He’s awkward and even talks to Tifa like he’s in need of her permission for things. He talk to her like he’s a child and she’s the adult. It’s very strange. Tifa even treats Cloud like a child. She often scolds him and tells him he’s wrong. When he tells Tifa that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, Tifa “corrects” him and says she brought him to the both of them, to which Cloud doesn’t respond (iirc).
Tifa does this because unlike Aerith and zack she has insecurities of her own on level with Cloud.

She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion.
By Aerith's own admission, she never met the real Cloud. Cloud, the real Cloud was the voice in his head telling him to interrogate Tifa about Nibelheim. Aerith is a person that got hurt by his weakness before he ever got a chance to really interact with her. It's all guilt.

Why is he not allowed to continue to love his lost mage and still be a part of their family?
Cause he wasn't being part of his famil anymore. He was planning on dying alone. He wasn't planning on ever seeing them by that point. Geostigma is THE threat on Advent Children. Did you miss that whole thing?

That’s almost like marrying a widow (if you indeed believe Cloud and Aerith had a romantic relationship) and then telling him to completely forget about his first wife, whom he would STILL be with had they not died. It’s just terrible.
They went on one date if that and spent a month in each other company at best. They were hardly MARRIED.


Throughout the movie, Tifa is very forceful on Cloud to get better, whereas Aerith merely encourages him to realize that life goes on, she is still by his side, and he isn’t at fault for anything that happened. Tifa just doesn’t get it. “Look at you, you think you’ve got it so damn hard!” That’s not what he’s upset about! He’s in a state of mourning and fear! Losing loved ones is hard! Of course you want him to move on, that’s understandable, but forcing him to put a smile on his face won’t be what gets him back on his feet. Healing takes time, and longer for some.
Yeah, a equal partner gets angry at abandonment. Aerith is the one that mothers him in Advent Children no matter what he does.


Soon, he builds up the courage to fight. You know why? Because of Aerith’s words of encouragement and even her slight teasing of his self-blame. “Dilly dally shilly shally! Isn’t it time you did the forgiving?” She never blamed him for her death. Not even once. The fact that she found he was being silly is probably what made him realize just how much she meant those words. He had been forgiven, and now the only person’s forgiveness he still needed was his own.
Vincent and Marlene are the ones that ultimately turn him around.


Advent Children is a movie about forgiveness, moving on, life after death, and knowing that just because we have lost someone very dear, they continue to live on within our hearts. The ones we love will never die so long as we hold them close to our hearts. That is what Advent Children is about. IMHO, it’s telling us the Aerith and Cloud can NEVER be separated. She continues to live on in his heart, in his very soul. They share the same Promised Land, the same world.
We see her leave even in spirit by the end. She doesn't need to be there to protect him anymore.


What gets me about Cloti’s is that they always (at least, a great deal of them) claim Cloud is such an asshole to Tifa, so why do you fight so hard that they are the canon coupling? I just don’t get it. Why would you think that they’re meant to be? It’s not even about whether Tifa is good for Cloud, but is Cloud good for Tifa? He doesn’t know how to handle her and her worst, either. He doesn’t know her, either. Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings. She needs someone like Zack. Zack and Tifa would be such a great match, they really would. It breaks my heart that so many just can’t seem to see that.
Cause Cloud and Tifa are cut from the same mold, just like Aerith and Zack are cut from the same mold. And again you see their relationship a month or so after one has run away to die and one of their kids is dying. You dismiss their relationship based on that. Even though they work it out.
 
A post from tumblr huh? Well let's take a look.

Let’s start with where Final Fantasy VII ended off. Cloud and co. defeated Sephiroth and the planet was being attacked by Meteor. Cloud has this vision of a woman’s hand (Aerith’s hand) reaching out to him. He knows in his heart that it is Aerith, and so he reaches back, excited to see her.
And that is as far as I got.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Yeah, that bit always annoys me. If I was standing in a black void and a hand reached out to me I'm going to reach for that hand, even if it was Hitlers! Way I see it Aerith was giving Cloud a helping hand back to reality.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I was nodding my head and agreeing with the post until I got to
If you ask me, there is a huge sense of Tifa being extremely insensitive to Cloud’s pain and his way of thinking. The two have little to no communication between the two of them, and when they do, Tifa takes on a much more motherly role over him.
please jesus christ allah god shiva krishna buddha flying spaghetti monster and river tam can we

PLEASE FUCKING STOP WITH SAYING EITHER CHICK IS A MOTHER FIGURE TO CLOUD THANK YOU SO MUCH
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
No offense meant, BlankBeat, but that was a really dreadful analysis. It starts out well, but before it's done is squarely at odds with official statements that Tifa understands Cloud better than anyone, that she's the only one he's opened his heart to, that she does support him in the ways he needs, and a host of other things.

Honestly, I think this is where you see most of the animosity in the LTD come from. At least on the part of those who argue that Cloti is canon.

They begin at the official statements about Tifa and Cloud's rapport, and it's never in question that Tifa gets Cloud or that he was happy living with her. Many folks who see things in more Clerith-oriented ways saw Advent Children and probably read Case of Tifa, but largely overlooked interviews and Ultimanias while taking from what they did see a drastically different view of Tifa's role in Cloud's life -- as well as a drastically different view of Cloud himself.

Whether the different view of Tifa leads to the different view of Cloud, or if it's the reverse, I'm unsure. But suffice it to say that many who see Clerith in Advent Children see Tifa as a well-intentioned but overbearing bungler who does more harm than good.

When presented with metatextual statements to the contrary from the people who created the characters, these fans find it difficult to shake their initial reading, especially if they read somewhere how much Nomura wanted people to draw their own conclusions about a lot of things in the movie. The idea that there is an official answer to its questions is often antithetical to their understanding of the artistic objective of the film, and that notion can be doubly repulsive when presented with the evidence that the official answer contradicts their prior misconceptions.

Basically, it's simple cognitive dissonance. Depending on the degree of attachment to the previously held interpretation (not necessarily the Cloud-Aerith pairing, but the associated understanding of it), either the new information is accepted and the interpretation is adjusted, the information is retained for further consideration, or it's outright rejected with the rationale for it to follow later.

Tone of delivery probably also plays a role in which result emerges. People tend to be less willing to abandon prior understanding when new information is presented to them in a condescending manner. Of course, openness to new information is ultimately the receiver's responsibility, regardless of how it's presented to them.

Anyway, that's my armchair psychology for the day. People view Cloud and Tifa differently, and those different views (despite that some can easily be demonstrated as inaccurate) are at the core of LTD shenanigans.
 
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She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion.
Oh man, I have some serious issues with this. She wasn't telling Cloud, chose Aerith or chose us. She was saying, "Are you going to allow your feelings of guilt get in the way of you being alive and the people that are willing to accept you."

Keep in mind what was happening here, Cloud isn't mourning. Cloud has given up on everything. At this point, us or your guilt isn't just a philosophical question, it's a literal question.

Marlene has just been captured by the enemies. Denzel and other children have been kidnapped by these same guys. And one of these guys beat Tifa to the point of unconsciousness so it's a reasonable assumption that Cloud is the only person who could defeat them. And he was going to walk away from the situation, like he walked away from his family when it got too hard. He was going to leave the children they were raising in eminent danger. There's not a mother in the world that would take that sitting down.

At this point, someone needed to tell him, it's time to chose. He needed to stop running away from the hard questions. Tifa has in fact, supported Cloud through a ton of his moodyness, guilt, and struggle to find happiness. But supporting them does not always mean allowing him to waste away.

Aerith does also support him in her own way, much different from Tifa's. But the roles aren't meant to be the same. Aerith is the spiritual side of the planet, a healer, and the woman who can give him forgiveness. Tifa is Cloud's rock, who is by his side at his worst and they grow to be stronger characters together.

Tifa doesn't want Aerith to leave the picture, Tifa want's Cloud not to be consumed by his feelings to the point he cannot live anymore. She smiles up at the rain fondly saying that Aerith was always there for him, and thanks her. That's not the mark of a woman who wants Cloud to forget her, that's the mark of a woman who wants him to move forward.
“Look at you, you think you’ve got it so damn hard!” That’s not what he’s upset about! He’s in a state of mourning and fear! Losing loved ones is hard! Of course you want him to move on, that’s understandable, but forcing him to put a smile on his face won’t be what gets him back on his feet. Healing takes time, and longer for some.
She knows what the real problem is, she explicitly states it later on, "You're scared of letting people down." This is at the core of everything, Complete even has an extra scene where he imagines Zack and Aerith's deaths right before he saves Tifa and Denzel.

Healing takes time and she knows it because Case of Tifa shows that she has allowed Cloud his space and time while trying to talk to him about it. But it's something that he needs to be able to confront. Cloud wasn't confronting it, he was going to lay down and die. This is mentioned specifically when Tifa and Marlene meet up at the church.

And guess what, Cloud manages to push past it. Not just because of Aerith like the analysis would have you believe, but because of everyone. Tifa, Marlene, Vincent, Aerith.
“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.” -Cloud Strife Compilation FFVII Ultimania character profile.
Hell, look at the moment when he goes to defeat Bahamut, the very moment where he finally goes into the fight with all his conviction, he cannot reach the enemy on his own and his allies, including support from Aerith, help him reach where he needs to be.

When he fights Sephiroth, Tifa is the one that tells her comrades (and the audience) the part of Cloud that he lost on his way, his courage and conviction, and he was gaining it back when he fought Sephiroth.

Cloud in AC/C wan't fully him. That was the part that was so consumed with negativity that he was willing to let him and others die because he couldn't face the reality that was facing himself. This isn't new. Tifa had her own problems in CoT- her own guilt and questions of what's next. Barret's burden of finding his place in life without violence. Red XIII's coping with the mortality of the people around him. And this is Cloud's turn.

AC/C was never about Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aerith. This was his "Case of" story, where Cloud had been drowning in despair and unable to know a way to move forward. And through his own power, and the support of the people that have loved him: Tifa, his family, Aerith, and Zack, he found his way again. And without all his doubt and fear weighing him down he was able to finally return to his family, quite happily. Even the latest "The Kids are Alright" novel has Cloud mentioning his family at the end.

The promise land wasn't the church. It wasn't a location even. It was with the people that he loved. His family, his comrades, and even Zack and Aerith who were watching him. If you frame it as a Cloud/Aerith movie, then yeah, I understand why you would think it was the church. But it wasn't, it was about Clouds strength and his relationship TO EVERYONE. Cloud has important scenes with Aerith yes, but Zack as well, with Tifa, with Denzel, and with Marlene.

Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings.
lolololol forever.

Tifa is a caretaker, who looks after children that are not of her own, one that was terminally ill. There are romantic notions of "saving" but they are pretty much gone. The point of Cloud/Tifa that it isn't a fantasy. It's real, it's hard, and it's absolutely worth it.

Tifa loves Cloud and it has nothing to do with princess notions. In almost every scene that matters focused on reality, it was about her supporting Cloud, making sure he was okay. You can't convince me that Tifa only wants the princess ideals when she forgo the world to support a Cloud that practically a vegetable and probably wiping the drool off his face. She had wanted to be saved but in VII and beyond never expected it, and barely mentioned it unless it was to remind them of earlier times.

Her mind wasn't changed when Cloud was mentally broken. Or when he wasn't in soldier. She started their relationship in VII knowing that there was something wrong with and decided to look after him. That's the exact opposite of wanting him to save her.

“Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him.” - Tifa Lockhart Compilation FFVII Ultimania character profile.
edit:
oh god this post is ryu long what have I done???

Edit II:

I don't have enough time for the words in my head to write all the issues I have with Denzel being Cloud and Aerith's child, and that problems that has with not only the family dynamic but with Denzel, who has his own story- all his parental figures that have come and died- and own character development- and the problems this creates with Tifa's own arc with Denzel.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
RE: 'Princess desires/wishes' I understand that this descriptor was used by SE themselves, but why is it whenever I read it from a C/A argument it comes off as 'Tifa is a spoiled Paris Hilton brat forcing Cloud to do her bidding' ?

Also, Cloud basically got what he desired, nobody ever mentions it but he had childish 'hero/knight/prince' desires. He wanted to be a hero to get the girl (Tifa) so when people argue about how she forced him to promise, its quite clear that he was taken aback that his plan worked so easily. He didn't even think Tifa would come to the well that night! And then for her to come and ask him to be her hero - that was his dream come true.

I wish people would stop ignoring that. >_>
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Well, it's A core of it, dunno about THE core. I might respond later with a fuller response to Blank's post, but for now, I will just state I found the post to be full of a lot of editorializations and assumptions not supported or even outright contradicted by the narrative and supplement text.

Also, Splintered, you weren't anywhere NEAR me in full swing length, there.
 
Speaking of which, is there post where a translator looked at the "a memory or us" line?

Before the English version came out my translations were, "Did we lose to our memories?" I'm not going to assume which one is closer to the original but I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown of this line seeing that it gets so much fanfare.
Also, Splintered, you weren't anywhere NEAR me in full swing length, there.
You're getting old, you just had two posts that I actually read in full.
 
AKA
Minato
Sorry if I was coming off a little aggresive in my last post BlankBeat, someone was nagging me to get off the computer so I had to get my thoughts down quickly.

Anyway, while Sansa is right to scold calling either Aerith and Tifa motherly, Zack and Aerith reached an emotional maturity by the time they died, that Cloud and Tifa haven't yet. Tifa and Cloud have stuff to work through, together. Aerith and Cloud, or Zack and Tifa, if either had lived I can't see as an real equal relationship.

I like my Cloud and Tifa equally awkwardly overly dependent on each other. Which is what every FFVII entry so far has been telling me.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Also, Cloud basically got what he desired, nobody ever mentions it but he had childish 'hero/knight/prince' desires. He wanted to be a hero to get the girl (Tifa) so when people argue about how she forced him to promise, its quite clear that he was taken aback that his plan worked so easily. He didn't even think Tifa would come to the well that night! And then for her to come and ask him to be her hero - that was his dream come true.

I wish people would stop ignoring that. >_>
Sweet [random deity that has been turned into a summon monster here], THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Speaking of which, is there post where a translator looked at the "a memory or us" line?

Before the English version came out my translations were, "Did we lose to our memories?" I'm not going to assume which one is closer to the original but I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown of this line seeing that it gets so much fanfare.

You're getting old, you just had two posts that I actually read in full.
I'm just getting started. I will pour out copious tomes of verbage once I get a little bit of time where I'm not watching something or interacting with people.

Plus, I've only been responding to some of Blank's posts, rather than ALL of them, as I could.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Holy flying carpets, this debate is still kicking? Nice. ;)

I am far too lazy to go back and read everything, but I just wanna comment here:

She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion.
Actually what she asks is: "Did we lose to our memories?" She's not asking him to choose, she's asking if they're so swallowed up by their past and guilt and 'sins' that they won't fight for their lives and future. In my opinion this quote directly relates to when Cloud tells her that she's more optimistic than she's acting back when she was silent and down and heavy with the weight of her 'sins' in CoT. He says he will remind her of who she is, despite all of the shit they went through. And yet, two short years later there they were, there HE was, losing to that same heaviness...

So, uhm, yeah. Tifa wasn't setting an ultimatum. She was asking a freaking question. A damn good one too. Even in the craptaclar English translation of "A memory or us" the memory isn't specified as 'Aerith'. The memory of guilt, of pain, of chocobo cheesecake, Sephy-poo...whatever. It's still not an ultimatum. And it's not between Aerith and Tifa.

**wanders away again**
 
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