The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

Why do you think the fact he says in a moment of self-ponderance that he will finish her work for her, and then is reminded that he is not alone in that mission is a romantic implication?

This bit, we know how Cloud has a tendency to beat himself up, to bottle things up inside. And we know he feels a huge guilt for failing Aerith, which isn't something he shares with the party. I feel that this scene was showing that, that Cloud doesn't have to go on alone, that everyone feels a sense of loss over Aerith, and wants to complete her work.

I don't have the different dialogue options for each character in that scene but from Little Chibas script with Cid in the party:

"The big gift the flower girl left for us... It'd be sad if we didn't finish it!"

I'm assuming other party members say stuff along similar lines.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

"Can be," but not "is." I don't think anyone is disputing your right to read it or any other scene that you wish as romantic, just the assumption that it is by default.

I could be wrong though. Seriously, ship what you want. This discussion is not intended to dispute your pairing preferences, just to discuss the finer points of canon.

i don't even ship clerith. i ship cloti. but i also feel it's a little ridiculous for people to say that cloud never felt anything romantic for aerith.

 

[Wolfmania]

Well, everyones entitled to their interpretations, however ridiculous we might think each other's is. So yea, agree to disagree is the only option here.

But out of the three reasons I listed, the one Octo evidentiated(sorry again: 'evidenced'. Damn english...) is the one I'd see as more plausible with Cloud's character as a whole. Probably mixed a bit with reason 2.

 

[penandpaper]

i don't even ship clerith. i ship cloti. but i also feel it's a little ridiculous for people to say that cloud never felt anything romantic for aerith.

Which Cloud?

Serious response now, I respect your opinions even if I don't necessarily agree with them. I believe that Aerith will always be special to Cloud and that he'll never forget her, but I don't believe his feelings for her are romantic based on the evidence that I've seen so far. That is my opinion and no one has to (or likely will) agree. What a boring world this would be if we all agreed.

I also don't believe that his feelings not necessarily being romantic diminishes in any way how much he cares for her and how strong their bond is. Do feelings have to be romantic to be powerful or can you care for someone with all your heart without the feelings necessarily being romantic? Does the fact that his relationship isn't canonically romantic with Zack make Cloud's feelings for him any less special and powerful? I certainly don't believe so. Cloud deeply cares for both Zack and Aerith. He'll forever cherish them.

Again, that's all my opinion, but you've given me your thoughts and I decided that I wanted to share mine as well. An honest exchange is the best kind after all.

If you have something that indicates that the real Cloud is/was canonically in love with Aerith, then I'd love to see it. I really do mean that. Based on what I've learned so far, I just haven't seen enough to jump to that conclusion for myself, but that's me.

Is that okay? I don't want to leave this debate on what seems like a bitter note. It's just a discussion about a game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think "Which Cloud?" is the right question to be asked here. I think absolutely everyone accepts that Composite Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. Kitase said so, after all. Some believe Real Cloud did too, and then some believe he may have but that it can't be definitively determined either way.

Wolfmania, penandpaper, Minato, Ryu, Octo and myself are all firmly in the latter group (if I've understood everyone so far). What about you, Aki?

 

[Vendel]

>you can get a 'She is not my Girlfriend' response from aerith when referring to tifa
>clearly not the same as tifa getting jealous over cloud and aerith 'building their own world' according to ultis, which proves nothing!

nope i am going to continue snortgiggling over here <3

I now find it hilarious that you can't seem to grasp something this basic.

But let me try one more time. The first thing Cloud does is bring up Tifa when he is in Aerith's house. Which causes Aerith to ask if she is his girlfriend.

Is this getting through or do we need visual aids?

 

[Zee]

If you have something that indicates that the real Cloud is/was canonically in love with Aerith, then I'd love to see it. I really do mean that. Based on what I've learned so far, I just haven't seen enough to jump to that conclusion for myself, but that's me.

but why does that matter though

i'm not trying to be rude but why should anyone break their backs trying to convince you cloud was absolutely romantically attracted to aeris if that's not how you saw it? as long as you can allow that there's enough romantic subtext for it to be interpreted that way, no one here is gonna hunt you down for not adhering to that specific interpretation.

i mean in any case cloud's level of affection for both girls was largely influenced by the player. the game encourages you to project and invest your own personal feelings in his love life. if i played the game with the aeris date, promised her a date on an airship, and showed her special attention, then yeah, in my game cloud and aeris have a more obvious romantic relationship than a game that favored tifa.

so long that everyone can recognize that cloud has romantic feelings for both women and strongly cares for them, what does it matter to anyone else that in my game i saw and encouraged more of a romantic relationship between cloud and aeris?

 

[Vendel]

so long that everyone can recognize that cloud has romantic feelings for both women

I don't recognize that.

Even if you played the game a certain way to make you think Cloud might have had romantic leanings for Aerith that just means you as the player leaned that way. There is nothing solid there to say Cloud, no matter his personality, felt the same way.

 

[penandpaper]

but why does that matter though


i'm not trying to be rude but why should anyone break their backs trying to convince you cloud was absolutely romantically attracted to aeris if that's not how you saw it? as long as you can allow that there's enough romantic subtext for it to be interpreted that way, no one here is gonna hunt you down for not adhering to that specific interpretation.

I didn't say that anyone had to or that it mattered if we're talking interpretation. Did I? It's for the claim of canon romantic feelings that I asked for further evidence and no one has to prove that either. It was a simple request should anyone want to talk to me about it.

Is... that okay? I'm back to feeling like I'm upsetting people and that isn't my intent.

i mean in any case cloud's level of affection for both girls was largely influenced by the player. the game encourages you to project and invest your own personal feelings in his love life. if i played the game with the aeris date, promised her a date on an airship, and showed her special attention, then yeah, in my game cloud and aeris have a more obvious romantic relationship than a game that favored tifa.

so long that everyone can recognize that cloud has romantic feelings for both women and strongly cares for them, what does it matter to anyone else that in my game i saw and encouraged more of a romantic relationship between cloud and aeris?

See but you're still talking as though it's canon that the real Cloud held romantic feelings for Aerith and I don't think that's been proven yet. Has it been ruled out? No, of course not, but I don't think that it's necessarily true that real Cloud does absolutely hold romantic feelings for both.

Are we discussing canon or preferences here? I'm not going to debate preferences because your opinion is your own just as mine is my own. Debating canon is a different issue, in which case I ask for more evidence.

Is that alright? Bah, I'm back to not being sure if I'm even making sense. I'm sorry.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I think "Which Cloud?" is the right question to be asked here. I think absolutely everyone accepts that Composite Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. Kitase said so, after all. Some believe Real Cloud did too, and then some believe he may have but that it can't be definitively determined either way.

Wolfmania, penandpaper, Minato, Ryu, Octo and myself are all firmly in the latter group (if I've understood everyone so far). What about you, Aki?

i feel like idk how we can say composite cloud and real cloud had such different basic feelings. no matter how you play, it's generally a lot harder to be mean to tifa. she's a person who matters to cloud, who he wants to protect. this also happens to be true of aeris after meeting her.

I now find it hilarious that you can't seem to grasp something this basic.

But let me try one more time. The first thing Cloud does is bring up Tifa when he is in Aerith's house. Which causes Aerith to ask if she is his girlfriend.

Is this getting through or do we need visual aids?

tifa also infers that aerith is cloud's new gf from their talking in the park at the don's house (aerith corrects this shortly, and tifa explains they aren't dating)

omg does this mean cloud is cheating on both of them since they both assume the other is cloud's girlfriend?! or that aerith is inherently more observant about cloud's actual emotional state? the world may never know

 

[Octo]

Can we agree on whether or not we're arguing canon or interpretation here? Personally I don't see the point in talking about interpretations/opinion because that could literally go on forever.

I think it does matter if Cloud canonically had romantic feelings for Aerith or not. The most we have is what Kitase said about 'wavering'. Now I kind of think it sucks that the creator could say that but not do a good enough job of establishing that in-game without leaving it up to the player, but thats just me.

The reason that some of us are arguing canon is because it has a huge impact on Clouds behaviour/motivations in AC. If we are to believe that it was a C/A romance cut short by Sephiroth, then that has implications for a C/T relationship.

It is of course possible to love someone, and then they die, and to love someone new. That in no way diminishes your love for the first person, but in AC if its shown that Aerith can communicate with Cloud (and yes, we know that Aerith is meant to return to the lifestream at the end, but the nature of what that means is argued by the C/A side) If the argument from C/A is that Cloud would have ended up together with Aerith and not Tifa had she lived, then it makes one hell of a difference to C/T doesn't it?

 

[JayM]

FWIW I think arguing canon is still going to involve a certain measure of interpretation. I'm not saying every single reading is automatically valid, but if two people are taking the same line of dialogue and it means different things to each of them, after a certain point it really does come down to opinion.

Not trying to justify the crazy "Tifa forces Cloud to do everything and is a total bitch" readings bc I do think those ignore a lot of actual dialogue/action, but if you have a reading that you can reasonably defend that doesn't totally butcher the characters...

Basically I don't think canon is a single exclusive reading, is what I'm saying. Especially in this fandom.

 

[Wolfmania]

The reason that some of us are arguing canon is because it has a huge impact on Clouds behaviour/motivations in AC.

Basically.

I don't think Cloud was ever motivaterd by romantic love when It came to Aerith, or Zack for that matter(sorry Clack worshippers).

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Basically.

I don't think Cloud was ever motivaterd by romantic love when It came to Aerith, or Zack for that matter(soeey Clack worshippers).

i feel like any romantic feelings from cloud to aerith wouldn't matter very much because, no, i don't think he was ever in love with her, attracted to her and interested in a relationship yes, but that was snuffed out and he decided to be with tifa instead.

but this isn't why he would seek forgiveness in the first place, he'd seek forgiveness because it's always been a huge deal in the games for him. whether or not he had affection for him doesn't matter at that point because it's not what he's looking for. he's tried comfort and he doesn't think he deserves it. what he wants in ac is something he feels in his heart he can never receive so he can have the same sad death that they had, because he knows he can't fix himself.

 

[penandpaper]

This is perhaps the time at which we all agree to disagree. Positions have been stated and I'm honestly not sure that we're going to get much further, unless there is something new that hasn't been brought up. I'm not opposed to continuing if someone wishes to, but I'm just not sure what's going to be accomplished by this point. I feel like we keep dancing around the same issues and by this point it does seem to come down to interpretation and opinions.

This has been a nice debate though and I thank everyone who participated in it, whether you argued with me or against me. I do hope that there will be no hard feelings. I still feel like there's some remaining bitterness and that's worrying. With my luck, I'll have alienated half the forum by this point.

So, thank you to you all and I do apologize if I have said or done anything to offend.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

fakeCloud is basically Cloud's deviantart RP character.

I hope you're not implying that Cloud did this shit consciously.

If Cloud and Aerith's relationship is based on a FAKE and fake interactions, why does the 'real' Cloud care so much about her? Why should he care at all that she died, how did he form a connection at all if he's been fake all this time? Cloud obviously formed a bond with Aerith. If he's been fake and not there the entire time it would be completely impossible for him to do so.

I don't see hwo you leap from one to the next. To be honest, Cloud thought he was someone else. Cloud Strife, yes, but a different version of what we knwo to be the real Cloud Strife. His mind was divided. He REACTED to his environment in a different manner, BASED on the illusory information he had about himself.
He was not an automaton. Perhaps as Ryu said, the term "fake" is problematic -- I certainly find it inaccurate.

This does not mean, however, he wasn't aware of what was going on around him at present time. This doesn't mean that once he realized and became self-aware he had Aeris wiped from him memory. The moments he experiences in current time aren't just floating somewhere, unregistered. I believe what most people are saying, is that messed up!Cloud acts differently than he normally would around people ( & Aeris) BASED on his illusory perception of himself.

Knowing this, we can no longer take his previous behavior and interactions with people at face value, not when we find out what he is really like. How he really shows his romantic affection. His cracking jokes and exchanging services for dates (lol how is this in character at all?) may be able to pass as romantic pursuit at one point (when we don't know him as anything other than a SOLDIER), but once you find out what is wrong with Cloud, it no longer remains that.

That's worlds different from what you are suggesting.

 

[Zee]

I feel like we keep dancing around the same issues and by this point it does seem to come down to interpretation and opinions.

this has been the nature of the ltd since is started on this forum, tbh

So, thank you to you all and I do apologize if I have said or done anything to offend.

i'm sure you didn't offend anyone and you sure didn't offend me. you can actually present your side without resorting to passive aggressive insults or snide comments, so kudos. i'm like a drunken, one armed bitter war vet when it comes to the ltd, so don't mind me, but i don't take anything in here personally cause i mean we are talking about fictional characters and their relationships

If we are to believe that it was a C/A romance cut short by Sephiroth, then that has implications for a C/T relationship.

tbh i think it actually helps c/t if you take c/a romance into account, especially during cot/ac, since those are more personal stories about cloud and his relationships and how he's handling everything. i mean, just for my part, but cloud wanting to start a life with tifa but knowing that he ended up beating and almost killing the last girl he was interested in and trying to deal with that while being happy with the woman he's currently with makes a far more emotional and compelling story than, well there was this really good friend that i guess i sorta knew, but i still value her as much as the woman i'm living with and raising kids with for reasons unknown to me, so i guess i'll drink myself into stupor and pass out now

 

[Octo]

Yeah, thinking about it there seems to be 3 different Clouds, RealCloud, fake/illusory/compositeCloud and Jenova/Seph/bad Cloud.

CompositeCloud isn't aware that theres anything wrong, but he's being pulled along by Seph/Jenova and on occasion they force him to do very bad things (attacking Aerith twice, handing over the black materia) realCloud keeps attempting to regain control but doesn't have much success.

Thats not to say that everything composite Cloud does is motivated by Seph/Jenova, just that he's forgotten his true self.

Does that make sense? It's very late here

 

[Wolfmania]

i feel like any romantic feelings from cloud to aerith wouldn't matter very much because, no, i don't think he was ever in love with her, attracted to her and interested in a relationship yes, but that was snuffed out and he decided to be with tifa instead.

but this isn't why he would seek forgiveness in the first place, he'd seek forgiveness because it's always been a huge deal in the games for him. whether or not he had affection for him doesn't matter at that point because it's not what he's looking for. he's tried comfort and he doesn't think he deserves it. what he wants in ac is something he feels in his heart he can never receive so he can have the same sad death that they had, because he knows he can't fix himself.

I was referring to the people who do use that in AC, to see that interpretation as to why he exiled, etc... to bolster Clerith by implying there are undertones of It in AC. I wasn't really referring to anyone in the imediate vicinity, since no one has done it here I just thought I should mention that romantic feelings were never Cloud's motivation.

But I still digress, I have not seen real!Cloud's feelings of romance towards Aerith, and you're right about his motivations being those of guilt.

 

[Danseru-kun]

MEGAREPLYPOST

Which is to say, I'm on the side that says separating fake!Cloud from real!Cloud doesn't really make sense. One is a construction of the other (that is later appropriated by Sephiroth for his own ends, but that's even less connected to the LTD than this post and oh my god look at the time).

Canonically it's stated that there's a separate persona, it's even visually interpreted in the LS sequence with different Clouds. DisC1oud <- is indeed a creation of multiple- what Cloud wants to be, Zack's memories, what Zack had that he wants to have, Tifa's memories of him Jenova/Sephiroth influences and of course, RealCloud. I think it's important to separate DisC1oud and RealCloud because RealCloud defeated all those illusions and influences, assimilating them and being their master. It's victorious moment for Cloud and the compilation. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly

But she's more than that. Whether you feel Cloud was romantically involved or not, he still had a bond with her and to form a bond of any kind, it sort of requires a person to be a little present.

Basically, it's so much more complicated than just dicing it up into real!Cloud and fake!Cloud or puppet!Cloud. It is not that clear cut.

Agreed with Aki about this 'what if' business being as pointless as discussing 'what if' Aerith lived. It's all interesting and whatnot but has no bearing.

I don't think that What if Aerith Had Lived is an equivalent to How Would the Real Cloud Act With Aerith in Disc 1. Those two are too big and complicated to be compared and would require changing the whole story.

Say, we take away anything related to Shinra and Sephiroth and focus on the relationship. If Aerith had lived... Aerith knew the real Cloud, she wants to meet him and formed a bond with him. Would she strop pursuing him romantically once he regains himself? No because she loved the real him. it's just the matter of who Cloud will choose. However, the premise is he continues to waver with both women.

Now the What if RealCloud scenario has a different premise: RealCloud had always loved Tifa. So if he had always loved her, will he act on his interest and liking to Aerith? That's why these two situations are different.

imo? yes imo

This
Its not that real Cloud doesn't exist on disc 1, its just that his power (for want of a better word) is very limited, usually cropping up whenever Cloud is knocked unconcious/asleep. RealCloud is buried under fakeCloud.

Aeris can sense this (as can Tifa) during the date, she asks to meet the real Cloud because she knows the Cloud sat in front of her isn't him.

I don't think it means that realCloud is unaware of what is going on, just that he's powerless to do anything.

Agree.

Edit: It's not a matter of not being able to feel or form bonds. It really isn't.

Agree, it's about his actions and mannerisms that are used to say that he's romantically interested in Aerith.

I also don't believe that his feelings not necessarily being romantic diminishes in any way how much he cares for her and how strong their bond is. Do feelings have to be romantic to be powerful or can you care for someone with all your heart without the feelings necessarily being romantic? Does the fact that his relationship isn't canonically romantic with Zack make Cloud's feelings for him any less special and powerful? I certainly don't believe so. Cloud deeply cares for both Zack and Aerith. He'll forever cherish them.

Agree.

I think "Which Cloud?" is the right question to be asked here. I think absolutely everyone accepts that Composite Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. Kitase said so, after all. Some believe Real Cloud did too, and then some believe he may have but that it can't be definitively determined either way.

Wolfmania, penandpaper, Minato, Ryu, Octo and myself are all firmly in the latter group (if I've understood everyone so far). What about you, Aki?

Yes, except Vendel. Tres' post summarized the past pages.

but why does that matter though

i'm not trying to be rude but why should anyone break their backs trying to convince you cloud was absolutely romantically attracted to aeris if that's not how you saw it?

Zee, I respect the way you understand the compilation especially Cloud and Aerith and I learned a lot from you. However, tbh this is a thread devoted to proving the canon pairing. Asking for evidence and demanding for proof is how the discussion should go. In the last pages people here have been really liberal and considerate with each other's opinions and analysis and have set aside canon materials for the sake of the discussion.

Is... that okay? I'm back to feeling like I'm upsetting people and that isn't my intent.

Are we discussing canon or preferences here? I'm not going to debate preferences because your opinion is your own just as mine is my own. Debating canon is a different issue, in which case I ask for more evidence.

Is that alright? Bah, I'm back to not being sure if I'm even making sense. I'm sorry.

I understand you Pen, and please keep posting.

No offence, tbh I think some people here are being defensive over the position of others in the Clerith relationship. Nobody said he's incapable of feelings in Disc1, nobody except Vendel think that romantic love is impossible, nobody said that RealCloud is totally not present in Disc1, nobody even talked about Cloti being canon because Clerith is not canon. But to some they got this impression, and I don't think it's a huge issue, just a misunderstanding that we can all settle.

Also, some people here make me feel that if I don't see Clerith in a romantic light, her death would mean less to me or that I don't get the meaning of it. Maybe it's a misunderstanding but that was my honest feelings. I don't agree that you need to love a person romantically to feel so much grief like that of Cloud's. Just look at how he reacted to Zack's death - he got screwed up really hard.

True, I may have not played the game yet but what attracted me to FFVII is Aerith. Her presence in AC is so memorable that it led me to research and to the LTD of course. I experienced her character not through the game, but through the legacy she left to FFVII fans- essays dedicated to her, videos, story summaries, forums, fanpages. Now I love Tifa more, but my attachment to Aerith has always been strong and real.

 

[Wolfmania]

I think it's important to separate DisC1oud and RealCloud because RealCloud defeated all those illusions and influences, assimilating them and being their master. It's victorious moment for Cloud and the compilation. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly

I just want to point out how awesome you are for jarring this up in my memory.

'The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm going to live my life without pretending.'

It is truly one of, if not the, most illustrative moment of Cloud's purpose. Finding yourself, breaking away from the puppet. It should be emphasized, not undermined, indeed!

Also a fun fact: real!Cloud cannot be controlled by Sephiroth through telepathy like fake!Cloud, even though real!Cloud still has the same number of S-Cells in him. Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Celes Chere]

@Ryu and erryone else - well, all that I was trying to say, is that we can't rule out Aerith as a romantic option because Cloud is FAKE. Wolfmania had said that we need to focus on the real Cloud's feels and implied that the Cloud Aerith interacted with, does not count for much of anything. I was trying to say that even though Cloud's mind has shattered, he created a persona, etc, that he's still there and that he's still Cloud, he's just messed upstairs. I still believe that Aerith made a strong connection with the REAL Cloud even thought she interacted with him when his mind was broken up. I hope that clears up anything anyone thinks I said.
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I personally don't believe anything romantic between Cloud and Aerith is really hinted towards in the game. The only scene I find could be considered romantic, is when Aerith visits Cloud in his dreams and then he goes after her and then mentions he can feel her in his soul. That's my opinion though. However I will never say that Cloud - the REAL Cloud - did not form a special bond with Aerith, to say that he truly didn't is just as much tearing up the plot line as you think not admitting Cloud isn't real is doing.

I now find it hilarious that you can't seem to grasp something this basic.

ummm wow get bent
is it really neccessary to insult aki's intelligence to try and prove your point? It's not even directed to me and it still bugs the ever living fuck out of me.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryu and erryone else - well, all that I was trying to say, is that we can't rule out Aerith as a romantic option because Cloud is FAKE.

True. Our point, quite simply, is that the Illusory Cloud is not indicative of the real Cloud, though we do allow for the possibility that Real Cloud- knowing, as he does, all that transpired when HeadfuckCloud was in charge- would be 'in love' with Pinky McFlowerPink.

Wolfmania had said that we need to focus on the real Cloud's feels and implied that the Cloud Aerith interacted with, does not count for much of anything. I was trying to say that even though Cloud's mind has shattered, he created a persona, etc, that he's still there and that he's still Cloud, he's just messed upstairs. I still believe that Aerith made a strong connection with the REAL Cloud even thought she interacted with him when his mind was broken up. I hope that clears up anything anyone thinks I said.

Here's the thing, Wolf is saying the exact same thing EXCEPT that he's saying that the way Disc1 Cloud acts is a red herring, that the way Cloud treats that connection later is what we need to focus on, because that's the unabridged, normal Cloud.

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Don't make me wash your keyboard out with soap, young missy. Such filth.

I personally don't believe anything romantic between Cloud and Aerith is really hinted towards in the game. The only scene I find could be considered romantic, is when Aerith visits Cloud in his dreams and then he goes after her and then mentions he can feel her in his soul.

Well, he says the same for Sephypoo, but yeah.

That's my opinion though. However I will never say that Cloud - the REAL Cloud - did not form a special bond with Aerith, to say that he truly didn't is just as much tearing up the plot line as you think not admitting Cloud isn't real is doing.

And apart from the obvious exception, no one is saying he didn't form that bond.

ummm wow get bent
is it really neccessary to insult aki's intelligence to try and prove your point? It's not even directed to me and it still bugs the ever living fuck out of me.

Please ignore him. I tend to. I know his comments are rage inducing, but if you can manage to not respond, the lack of response will piss him off more.

 

[JayM]

I hope you're not implying that Cloud did this shit consciously.

She may not be implying it but I am flat-out saying it. I think the tough-guy persona is one that Cloud has ALWAYS fallen back on and in that sense it is a part of him, it's just that his SCells and mako-enhanced fuckery made it bad enough that he forgot he was just acting tough before and started to think he really was that person. If that makes sense?

Canonically it's stated that there's a separate persona, it's even visually interpreted in the LS sequence with different Clouds

I don't think we actually disagree on this; given the other responses to it I think I just phrased it badly. I do agree that they are different, I just think that people are drawing too thick of a line between them or possibly just interpreting their connection to each other differently. I do view DisC1oud (that is beautiful btw) as a somewhat conscious construction of RealCloud, in that I think some of that "persona" existed before and I don't really think RealCloud fought against HeadfuckCloud being the one in charge.

It's victorious moment for Cloud and the compilation. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly

And I am in complete agreement with this but I think the victorious moment actually began all the way back when Cloud keeps himself from, y'know, killing Aeris. I think initially RealCloud makes no effort to control DisC1oud; then his first effort (@ the temple) fails; then his second effort succeeds but any strength he might've drawn from that is quelled slightly by Sephiroth murdering Aeris in front of him and--

Okay getting off track sorry I have a lot of Cloud feelings.

Also I kind of think the distinction everyone (woohoo generalization!) is drawing between romantic love and reallyreallystrong platonic love is irrelevant to the debate and sort of proving my point. If you think that Cloud does have a really really strong/special bond with Aeris, then the only difference between that and thinking that he had a romantic interest in her is whether he wanted to bone her or not and 1) that question becomes irrelevant once she's dead bc she's not physically there and 2) we're not privy enough to Cloud's inner workings to determine which is canon either way when she's alive. Hell CLOUD's probably not privy enough to Cloud's inner workings to determine that.

Also this

Well, he says the same for Sephypoo, but yeah.

clearly we're wasting time discussing this Tifa vs Aeris business when the canon pairing of FFVII is right in front of our faces.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Please ignore him. I tend to. I know his comments are rage inducing, but if you can manage to not respond, the lack of response will piss him off more.

Alternatively - I know I may sound like a broken record here - just report him, and refrain from doing anything else. I know we haven't been keeping up with this thread as much as we should (I've been trying more since reports started coming in, but there's too much content for me to care enough to read it all carefully), but we try to respond to everything that actually violates the rules. He's just been banned from this thread for a couple weeks over a rule violation that was reported, actually.