I don't think we actually disagree on this; given the other responses to it I think I just phrased it badly. I do agree that they are different, I just think that people are drawing too thick of a line between them or possibly just interpreting their connection to each other differently. I do view DisC1oud (that is beautiful btw) as a somewhat conscious construction of RealCloud, in that I think some of that "persona" existed before and I don't really think RealCloud fought against HeadfuckCloud being the one in charge.
And I am in complete agreement with this but I think the victorious moment actually began all the way back when Cloud keeps himself from, y'know, killing Aeris. I think initially RealCloud makes no effort to control DisC1oud; then his first effort (@ the temple) fails; then his second effort succeeds but any strength he might've drawn from that is quelled slightly by Sephiroth murdering Aeris in front of him and--
Everyone needs to stop saying interesting things right now because you're getting me off topic.
Okay, I apologize for the tangent. If I'm wandering too far from the topic of discussion then I apologize and please just let me know that I should cut it out. Thank you!
To an extent, I agree with Wolfmania that I think there's a more definite line between the two versions of Cloud and I don't think that he had much in the way of actual control. If he could control the other persona and just hadn't been trying then he wouldn't have given the Black Materia to Sephiroth. He's indicated to really be struggling to stop himself, encouraging his other persona to be strong. Even if we do assume that the reason that that he managed to stop himself from killing Aerith is because his real self managed to emerge (Which I actually buy into, but I'll get to that in a second), it still appears DisC1oud (I like this. I'm using this.
) that is the one in charge at the time. So, it's not as simple as just him just taking control. DisC1oud has a consciousness and will of his own.
On the other hand, I do agree that I think that Cloud had input into the person that he becomes, although I think it's done unconsciously thanks to the Jenova cells and his own trauma. The fact that a part of the persona is made up of what he thinks a SOLDIER should be/wants to be would indicate that he has some input. Again though, I think this was done unconsciously thanks to the circumstances and his own state of being. And once the persona was created, I do think the evidence suggests that Real!Cloud didn't have control over it, although he could exert some influence over it.
I agree with you though that I don't think that Real!Cloud fought too hard at first for control. The first time we hear from him (And given DisC1loud's response, his as well and he's already been screwed up for a time by this point) he makes a brief comment in reference to a past that DisC1oud doesn't remember and then tells him, "Don't worry about me. You just worry about yourself now." Not exactly screaming for DisC1oud to remember, is he? The next time? He wants DisC1oud to talk to Tifa about why they didn't spend time together when he went home. Still not forceful, but he does seem to be trying to get the point home. Next time, I think was when he loses the Black Matetia to Sephiroth and this time it's indicated that Real!Cloud isn't just talking, but trying to intervene. He just can't do it. The next assuming that he does intervene when Sephiroth tries to force him to kill Aerith, he shows up long enough to break that connection. As things get continuously more serious, Real!Cloud seems to become more and more involved. Interestingly after Aerith's death, I don't think that he's heard from again which I always found odd given the identity issues later. I wonder if the reason for this is that having his one success turn into a failure (Whether or not he's the one who did it, Aerith is no less dead. He failed to save her.) drove his real self back into hiding. On the other hand, I do also thinks this all also indicates that it isn't as simple for Real!Cloud as just taking control because it is indicated that he really is trying by the time of the issue with the Black Materia and he just can't do it.
And I do agree that Real!Cloud might have intervened to stop DisC1loud from killing Aerith. Why? It's already been pointed out that while DisC1oud can be controlled by Sephiroth, but Real!Cloud can't. Given that DisC1oud has never shown to be able to break Sephiroth's control before, perhaps the reason that he could this time is because Real!Cloud emerged just long enough to break the connection.
And... I'm going to stop now because I'm sure that I'm not making any sense at all by this point.
Thank you for bringing up such an interesting point.
Also this clearly we're wasting time discussing this Tifa vs Aeris business when the canon pairing of FFVII is right in front of our faces.
You mean that wasn't generally agreed upon? I assumed that this was already settled.
given the very small window of cloud being single, it would be pretty unfitting for him to ever directly go 'dang aerith had some nice titties.' moreover, she was dead at the point he actually becomes completecloud, and there really isn't much time to dwell on 'aerith was beautiful and wonderful and i loved her'. what he can do is move on and live with tifa, so he does this.
what i don't get is the assertion 'well even if compositecloud liked aerith romantically that means nothing cause compositecloud was nothing like realcloud and they had totally different emotions and everything.' but no matter what, he cares for tifa and wants to protect her. he also cares for aerith and wants to protect her. so if part of him was interested in her, when he became a full person again i don't know why he'd suddenly go 'WHOA THERE i would never date aerith ha ha what was i thinking'.
I think the issue is that Real!Cloud and DisC1oud's emotions have to be combined into one and there's no reason to assume that there is a direct transfer. As I mentioned before, emotions are not a matter of copy and pasting, plus we need to factor in Real!Cloud's thoughts and feelings which are mostly an unknown by this point. The only thing we know for sure about Real!Cloud's point of view is that he deeply cares for Aerith, but that still doesn't mean that his feelings are romantic and that he'd view her in the same light after he becomes whole again.
Now, it isn't impossible for those feelings to carry over and I don't think that that's what is being stated. It's just that we don't know what happened after the two personas combined and Cloud's never really shown anything to indicate that his feelings for Aerith are/were romantic after he becomes whole again. That's not to say that they couldn't be, just that they don't have to be and therefore it can't really be stated factually. Sort of like the whole "guilt can indicate romantic feelings, but doesn't have to" as far as ACC goes. Nor has anything ever been stated to that affect in the official materials. I imagine that if there was a quote that stated that Real!Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, it would have come up by now, but if I've just missed then I would love to see it.
That would certainly solve this quickly. Anyway, the possibility that his feelings could be romantic hasn't been ruled out, but there just isn't enough to prove it to be a fact. It's still a matter of "could be" and not "is".
Wanting to protect also does not by default mean romance. It doesn't for Tifa anymore then it does for Aerith. It's an indication of importance and I don't think anyone is denying Aerith's importance to Cloud. She's intensely important and precious to Cloud, but it's a jump to assume that this means romance unless we want to make that assumption for everyone that Cloud wants to protect or for everyone that he views as important and precious. If that was all the indication that we had for Cloud's feeling for Tifa, I'd give you the same answer- that the feelings can be, but aren't necessarily romantic. The difference is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa are indicated to be romantic before he becomes headfucked and after, which indicates (although doesn't necessarily prove) that there is probably some continuity there in reference to Real!Cloud. At the very least, his feelings for Tifa after he returns to himself are indicated to be romantic within the canon materials, while his feelings for Aerith are much less defined at that point. I just don't think there's enough to assume romantic feelings. Possible? Yes, but not enough to come to the conclusion that his feelings are/were romantic in nature.
Does that all make sense? I'm not sure that I'm explaining myself well.
