The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well this all seems oddly familiar. Its almost like old times in here. Let's see what we got here...

Some variable scenes have canon versions and others don’t.

Ok, good start. The above is entirely true. Sort of like how the date sequence is entirely variable and thus just gets a brief caption and picture, while the HW scene's outcome is definite and thus gets substantially more description

Every single variable scene does not have to have a canon version, especially when you consider Final Fantasy VII has always incorporated the theme of a love triangle.

FFVII incorporated a love triangle into its story, yes. It wasn't a theme, the entire story isn't built upon it. And things change, Blank (can I call ya Blank?). The Compilation may be a lot of things (many of which kinda suck), but for better or worse its not just the OG. The Love Triangle is over and done with.

Let me ask you this: if variable scenes must have a canon version, which date scene is canon?

None to my knowledge. As you said, variable scenes and scenarios don't have to have a canonical version. But, this cannot be stressed enough, that does not mean that they cannot have a canon outcome.

For the record, I am like many of my fellow TLS members feel the Aerith date makes the most narrative sense. Maybe that'll be a tiny bit of common ground.

(And don't give me that: well the HA Highwind scene is canonized because of the FTOIL page, and the date scene isn't because there is no page that says which date happens.

Ok, I won't. I'll just let your statement above spell out what would have been a part of my point instead. I will remind you of all the other times the HA version has been alluded to without any mention whatsoever of variable scenes, of themany Word of God statements about Cloud and Tifa belonging/having a future together, and so on and so forth. In short, there is a load of support for the HA version even without the FTOIL page. The date, by contrast, has neither.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that not all variable scenes have to be canonized. In addition, it is only an opinion that the FTOIL page makes the HA Highwind scene canon. In my opinion, all the FTOIL page did was direct us to page 232 which shows us that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points. Including Tifa and Cloud on a romantic couples page makes sense, but warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE gave us on page 232).

Opinion is a funny word. Everybody has opinions, and a great many people try to claim that their opinion is fact. Only in shipping debates do I routinely see people try to claim that facts are just opinions (though to be fair I'd probably see it more often if I payed attention to politics ever). The folks coming into this thread to deny that the love triangle has a resolution use the word opinion near constantly. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And, as such veterans of this debate as Ryu and Vendel have pointed out to you already, page 232 is not so much a distinction between "canonized" and "variable/open to interpretation" and more "while HA definitely happened from a narrative standpoint, this is another thing that could happen in a given play-through of the game depending on the player's actions."

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are never shown together romantically,

Asking what many others have asked: This is different from the majority of FF couples how again? An answer that isn't special pleading would be appreciated here.

they sleep in separate rooms

You have been challenged to prove this. I renew that challenge. Especially considering that dialogue present in Case of Tifa supports them sleeping together. And before you point to the "go drink in your room" bit as evidence against, let me remind you that a room that is "yours" need not be the room you sleep in. My room is the one I keep my collection of swords and knives and various training gear in. I don't sleep there, but it is still "mine".

(Cloud sometimes sleeps in Aerith's Church),

While he was dying and foolishly trying to protect his family from that fact/wallowing in self-pity/believing himself to be worthless. That is to say, the time between the end of CoT and the end of AC/C. We are explicitly told he is back at home with Tifa where he belongs afterward. That bit I emphasized there is important, btw. It rules out any silliness like "well the Church is flooded now so naturally he had to go somewhere" or the like.

Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud (Nomura; Reunion Files),

So does Aerith, try again. Cloud even calls her "Mother" in his near-death state. A maternal sense of protectiveness and worry for a loved one is not abnormal in a couple.

Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her (Case of Tifa),

But Cloud does, and confirmed it without words. Even so, he's Cloud. Cloud is kind of dumb, emotionally stunted, and when things go bad he has a tendency to distance himself from the very people he should be depending on (he does it as a kid in Nibelheim when he starts fighting everyone instead of just going to Tifa and telling her what happened, he does it when he mistakenly thinks he's just a Sephiroth copy, and he does it when first Denzel and then he himself are dying slowly). It is entirely normal and human of Tifa to question his love for her when he acts like that.

Marlene is Barret’s daughter,

Marlene has two daddies. This is not entirely uncommon.

Denzel is a very rare and unique situation,

There are tons of orphans in the FFVII world thanks to various events (such as the plate being dropped), loads of people with Geostigma, etc. Not very rare or unique at all, really. The only way his situation is unique is the other orphans and Geostigma victims didn't get adopted by Cloud and Tifa. Which he did.

and the Seventh Heaven family has always been one that primarily consists of friends (Tifa even admits that friends can form a family together).

Just as Marlene has two father figures without such taking away from either, Tifa has two entirely separate families. The first is the family built of friends, otherwise known as AVALANCHE. All the playable characters, including the optional ones who are no longer optional, and the dead one. They're the ones she refers to early in CoT, the ones who share sins. The second family is just as specific, it is Cloud-Tifa-Marlene-Denzel. The 7th Heaven family. Always described as being those four people, specifically. They don't share sins, they share a home and their lives. Its an important distinction, and exactly what Quex was alluding to when she asked you "what are Marlene's sins again?"

Plus, Nomura even states that he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship together.

I haven't seen anyone claim this in a long time, and I honestly have forgotten where you got this claim from. I do remember that it was either an old quote, in reference to a side game like KH, a mistranslation or something similar. I just don't remember which. Oh well, I'm sure someone here remembers and will respond accordingly.

In addition, the ending of Advent Children suggests to me that Cloud is continuing his search for the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith (just like he said he would do at the end of Final Fantasy VII).

A.) Word of God says Cloud already found his Promised Land (which is at home with his family), and B.) He said he "could" meet "her" in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII. It was Tifa who said "Yes, let's do that together." They then went on to do no such thing at all, as clearly seen in the narrative we're discussing.

And remember, the question is not whom Cloud can be with at the moment, but whom he loves.

This is entirely true. So... got any proof that who he loves is Aerith? I have seen very little of that in this thread or its previous incarnations. Loads of attempts to tear down Cloti... minimal attempts to build up Clerith.

His actions at the end of Advent Children suggest to me that his love still lies with Aerith.

Which part? The bit where he moves back in with Tifa immediately after? The part where he watches he leave and mentally responds to her "You're ok now, right?" by looking at his family and realizing that he's not alone? What did he do at any point in AC/C, beginning to end, that suggests his love lies with Aerith? And that is deliberately leaving out the "still" since you still need to substantiate him loving Aerith in the first place before "still" can come into it at all

Granted, this is all my interpretation, but SE has stated over and over again that they want each one of us to decide for ourselves what we think of the events that happen throughout the compilation.

Yes, this is all your interpretation. I'm right with you there. But, here's a thing about interpretation, expressed via a little anecdote from science: If you light a candle and put a cup over it, the flame dwindles and goes out. Once upon a time, scientists thought this was because fire produced an invisible substance that built up inside the cup and eventually smothered the fire. That was their interpretation of the phenomena they observed. They were of course 100% wrong.

And, if I'm recalling correctly, didn't particular individuals from SE claim that they wanted us to decide what happened in this or that situation from FFVII before the compilation was a thing or something?

Maybe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women and SE wants to leave it up to us to decide whom he loves romantically.

If so, they screwed up when they told us who it was

This perspective follows along with Cloud being the only Final Fantasy protagonist pictured with two women in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page.

For you perhaps that follows. For me, among others here, it follows that Cloud is the only one pictured twice (the caption pretty well erases any importance Aerith might have had in the larger picture) because he's the only one who has multiple people confessing feelings to him. But, and once again this is important to note, even if Aerith was definitively canonized as the one who went on the date with him Cloud is oblivious to her confession. He has no idea what she's on about. With Tifa, however, under the Highwind, its a mutual confession (albeit a physical one). He knows, she knows. The end.

And ironically, virtually every other canon pairing has been shown in undeniable romantic situations except Cloud x Tifa and Cloud x Aerith.

Such as? I'm serious, name some of these undeniable romantic situations. Aside from extremely obvious ones like Tidus and Yuna kissing on camera, of course, I can't recall anyone ever being in such a situation ever. Its always specified after the fact. Oh, there was Zack and Aerith as well I suppose (still more subtle than Tidus/Yuna) but that doesn't exactly help your case

The bottom line is: there is no reason to put the date scene of Cloud and Aerith on a page discussing ‘Love Between Heroes’ unless love can exist between Cloud and Aerith.

Love can (or at least could) have existed between Cloud and Aerith. Certainly she has genuine feelings for him and that much is rarely contested. That's more than enough reason for her to get a mention on the page. But, again... there is no mention of her on the page. There is a very short blurb talking about the dating scene and the mechanics controlling it. Aerith is never mentioned, by name or otherwise. She is not alluded to, hinted at, nothing. They chose a picture from the version where she drags Cloud out of his room, yes, but for the words they used Barret, Yuffie, or Tifa all would have worked just as well. Its an aside, a bit of extra information that deserves its spot because it deals with attempted confessions of feelings.

The real meat of FFVII's entry on the FTOIL page is definitively Cloud and Tifa's wordless confirmation of mutual feelings. Everything else is just fluff.

What makes Final Fantasy VII unique is that it uses the theme of a love triangle. I feel as though this theme is carried on throughout the compilation.

But as I said above, it isn't a theme. Its not something the game was built around. It was a single facet of a greater whole. And, your feelings aside, the love triangle is not carried over. Aerith is still a very important person, both to the characters and to the fans. She has a greater effect posthumously than many characters do alive and well. But she's no longer a point on a triangle. I'm not sure what shape you get with just two points (a line or a circle depending on how you connect them I guess) but whatever it is, that's what we have now.

Now to talk about the other Highwind quotes...

Ok, this sounds different. Let's see what we got...

Most of the quotes discussing the Highwind scene don’t specify which version they are referring to, and the quotes that are referring specifically to the HA version are provided with a distinction saying that two versions exist.

They don't always specify because reading the quote tells you which version they're discussing quite nicely. Since the vast majority do indeed discuss the wordless confirmation of matching feelings, we know its thus discussing the HA version. The ones that have the notation about the LA version specify when they are discussing the HA for a reason: because they discuss both versions and thus must make a distinction or be confusing.

The HA version is given much more weight and discussion than the LA version. The events of the HA are outright said, many times over, to have happened. The LA version gets an occasional mention that it was in the game.

In both versions Tifa and Cloud express to each other that they are not alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. This means that feelings were expressed in both versions, but that the type of feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa’s affection level.

Those are words. They say those things out loud to each other. So yes, I agree. In either version, some feelings are expressed. Even in the LA version the awkwardness of it all doesn't feel particularly platonic to me, but this is where the big difference comes in as seen below...

Only in the HA version are romantic feelings mutual.

And expressed without words. Your statements above are therefore moot. We have been told in multiple places that Cloud and Tifa DID confirm mutual/matching feelings without words. "Words aren't the only way" and so on. That's the HA version. It is what happened.

Just because romantic feelings between Tifa and Cloud match in the HA version does not mean feelings weren’t also expressed in the LA version.

And putting aside the "without words" part you left out and I helpfully went on about at length above, I should like to point out that even in the LA version the lack of romantic feelings being confirmed is not evidence that no romantic feelings exist. Not that such matters, as per my statements above.

SE never said feelings weren’t expressed in the LA version, they simply said that romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa matched in the HA version.

And said that said matching feelings were confirmed in multiple places

In the LA version Cloud and Tifa may express mutual platonic feelings, come to a mutual understanding that they will only ever be good friends, or simply confirm mutual feelings of not feeling alone heading into the final battle (which is conveniently expressed in BOTH versions).

With the exception of that last bit about not being alone, none of what you just described happened. The LA scene consists of the setup for the HA scene, only with Cloud speaking almost entirely in "..." and then the two going straight to sleep. Nothing like "expressing mutual platonic feelings" or "we're only ever gonna be friends" happens. And with good reason, since we know Tifa has romantic feelings for Cloud. Ergo, what you describe would not be mutual. Which is, again, why it didn't happen.

Most of those quotes could be talking about either the LA version or the HA version.

Not really, no.

It just depends on your own interpretation of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

It really more depends on what has been explicitly laid in front of us multiple times. Interpretations are all well and good, fun even. But they do not and cannot override the truth.

But only in the HA version do romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa match, which is an optional scene that has never been declared canon by SE.

Canon is not a term you will ever, and I mean ever see SE utter. But, the HA version is still canon in the manner by which we the fans use that word. Confirmation (wordless) of mutual romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa only occurs in the HA version. We have been told many, many times now that said confirmation did happen. Ergo, the version in which that happened (HA) is what must have occurred. It is thus what we would call "canon."

And, as others have reminded you, the HA Highwind scene is not even the be-all-end-all of the mountain of narrative and meta support Cloti has. Its the highly noticeable tip of the iceberg, there's even more of it just out of sight

A quick apology if I mangled any of your formatting while cutting up the quotes to respond point by point/as the mood took me, I cba to go back and double check/fix it.

 

[Vendel]

Some variable scenes have canon versions and others don’t. Every single variable scene does not have to have a canon version, especially when you consider Final Fantasy VII has always incorporated the theme of a love triangle. Let me ask you this: if variable scenes must have a canon version, which date scene is canon?

Can I just stop you here. In what way has FFVII "always incorporated the theme of a love triangle"? Beyond the first disk of the game that is. I just want some clarification here because I get the feeling you think that everything SE does revolves around Cloud's love life in some way.

Also way to prop up a strawman with "if variable scenes must have a canon version". When exactly has anyone here ever said that?

(And don't give me that: well the HA Highwind scene is canonized because of the FTOIL page, and the date scene isn't because there is no page that says which date happens. The overall point I'm trying to make is that not all variable scenes have to be canonized.

You say that is your point. And that would be a reasonable point to make if someone were telling you that all variable scenes have to have a canon outcome. Which no one has done.

But something is telling me your real point is more along the lines of "no C/T scenes with variations can be romantic".

In addition, it is only an opinion that the FTOIL page makes the HA Highwind scene canon. In my opinion, all the FTOIL page did was direct us to page 232 which shows us that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points. Including Tifa and Cloud on a romantic couples page makes sense, but warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE gave us on page 232).

I know you didn't notice this. But your "C/T" explanation was one short sentence. Your own explanation was the better part of a paragraph. If your point was so obvious you would think it would be as easy to explain.

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are never shown together romantically, they sleep in separate rooms (Cloud sometimes sleeps in Aerith's Church), Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud (Nomura; Reunion Files), Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her (Case of Tifa), Marlene is Barret’s daughter, Denzel is a very rare and unique situation, and the Seventh Heaven family has always been one that primarily consists of friends (Tifa even admits that friends can form a family together). Plus, Nomura even states that he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship together.

This one paragraph is filled with so much distortions, lack of context and outright lies that I could fill an entire post just taking it apart.

In addition, the ending of Advent Children suggests to me that Cloud is continuing his search for the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith (just like he said he would do at the end of Final Fantasy VII). And remember, the question is not whom Cloud can be with at the moment, but whom he loves. His actions at the end of Advent Children suggest to me that his love still lies with Aerith.

Except (and you seem to have ignored this) The AC playback tells us Cloud finds his promised land surrounded by family (who are listed as Tifa,Marlene and Denzel) and friends (who include EVERYONE else) free from his guilt. And Cloud sees Aerith and Zack leave. And it's still his promised land.

So how exactly is he searching for something he already found?

Also let me point out again that Aerith is RIGHT THERE in the movie and Cloud makes ZERO effort to reach out to her in any way. If he was searching for her FOR TWO YEARS and she is right in front of him multiple times in the movie WHY DIDN'T HE DO ANYTHING AT ALL TO GET TOGETHER WITH AERITH? WHY DOES HE DO NOTHING WHEN SHE LEAVES WITH ZACK IN THE END IF HE SO DESPERATELY WANTS TO FIND AND BE WITH HER?

Why let the bitch leave AND THEN go looking for her after she has already gone back to the lifestream?

FFS that would be the most idiotic storytelling imaginable. Desperately in love man searches for his lost love for two years. When he finds her he talks about anything but their relationship. She then leaves while he watches. THE MAN DESPERATELY SEARCHES FOR HER AGAIN.

Granted, this is all my interpretation, but SE has stated over and over again that they want each one of us to decide for ourselves what we think of the events that happen throughout the compilation.

Remember folks everything is about the LTD.

Maybe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women and SE wants to leave it up to us to decide whom he loves romantically.

They sure go about that in a funny way.

What makes Final Fantasy VII unique is that it uses the theme of a love triangle. I feel as though this theme is carried on throughout the compilation.

How?

Most of the quotes discussing the Highwind scene don’t specify which version they are referring to, and the quotes that are referring specifically to the HA version are provided with a distinction saying that two versions exist.

In all your list of quotes can you fond more than like two that even explain what the LAHW scene is even about?

You make it sound like we can't figure out what version they are discussing without it actually stating it.

In both versions Tifa and Cloud express to each other that they are not alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. This means that feelings were expressed in both versions, but that the type of feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa’s affection level.

I'm lost. We know that Tifa loves Cloud and that Cloud loves Tifa. So why would they express "platonic" feelings for each other? How did you even come to the conclusion that they share something like this in the HW scene?

Only in the HA version are romantic feelings mutual.

No. They love each other in both versions. Only in the HAHW scene are the feelings they both share (revealed in the lifestream) confirmed "without words". But even if they don't do it there they still spend the rest of their lives together. So I guess they figured it out.

 

[Octo]

RE: Cloud wanting to be/searching for Aerith in the 'promised land': He knows where Aerith is now, so what is he searching for? Why doesn't he just lop his own head off and be done with it? Problem solved.

If anything the parts in AC where he meets Aerith again should remove any doubt in his mind if he was afraid of death.

/2cents

 

[Kain Strife]

Plus he was temporarily dead.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't think there been a page number on that 20th Anniversary Ultimania page means its some big distinction against that scene. It leads to the page of the FFVII story summary where that event takes places, and all of the boxes have pages numbers on them. It doesn't say "page whatever, the little box at the side" or anything.

And didn't Sarah and Ignus' stuff in FFIII basically amount to 'I want to spend more time with you'? Then again, that was the same for Aerith and Zack in CC.

Also Tres you dirty bastard:
http://thelifestream.net/compilatio...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/7/

That Aerith quote from KH Final Mix was miiiiiinnne. I did that years ago on GameFAQs.

http://thelifestream.net/compilatio...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/5/
And what the hell, that Lifestream Black stuff was from this site. Tres, man. Dude.

Also that 'for those who travelled with [Aerith] as former comrades' thing which I cba finding my rebuttal for now.

I just feel so under appreciated, you know I do so much to stir shit up in this fandom and it all gets forgotten.

 

[BlankBeat]

****I’ve already spent a few hours constructing this response and I don’t know how much time I will have in the coming weeks to continue debating this****

Here’s my response to Danseru-kun:

"…you cannot simply use those examples to prove that the whole LTD itself has no clear outcome."

I'm simply making the point that not every variable scene has to have a canon version (although I do think there is strong evidence to support Cloud x Aerith's date being canon, I'll leave that for another day…)

I don't think the FTOIL page made the HA Highwind scene canon, so therefore I don't think the Highwind scene has a canonized version, so therefore I don't think the outcome of the LTD is in favor of Cloud x Tifa.

"Again, not just the FTOIL page but Cloud and Tifa's profiles and story summaries."

Let's take a closer look at the Highwind scene:

The picture shown on the FTOIL page is a screenshot of the scene “Last Morning”. It is NOT a screenshot of the scene “Understanding”.

During the scene “Understanding” (which is not pictured on the FTOIL page), Tifa says in the high affection version, “Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking...”, to which Cloud responds with "............”, and then the scene fades to black.

Now, you can interpret that the FTOIL caption is referring to the scene “Understanding”. However, I tend to believe that the FTOIL page is referring to the scene that is actually pictured. The scene that is actually pictured on the FTOIL page is “Last Morning”.

Here are the two versions of “Last Morning”:

LA Version:

Cloud "…It's almost dawn..."
Tifa "H, huh...?"
Cloud “Morning, Tifa. It’s almost dawn.”
Tifa “Mmm… Good morning, Cloud.”
Tifa “Just a little longer… a little bit longer.”
Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
Cloud “......”
(The scene fades to black.)

HA Version:

Cloud "............It's almost dawn..."
Tifa "H, huh...?"
Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa." Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud."
Tifa "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."
Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
Cloud "Yeah... okay."
Cloud "This is probably the last time we'll have together......"
(The scene fades to black.)

Cloud allows Tifa to have her moment “without words” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”. Cloud may be more resistant to it in the LA version, but the moment still happens nonetheless. At the end of the scene Tifa continues to rest her head on Cloud, and eventually the scene fades to black. Tifa has her non-verbal moment with Cloud in both versions.

I believe that the caption on the FTOIL page is referring to this scene because not only does this scene match the screenshot on the FTOIL page (usually captions refer directly to the photo shown), but a non-verbal “moment” where feelings are expressed also takes place in this scene.

Since Tifa has her non-verbal moment with Cloud in both versions, this confirms that feelings are expressed without words in both versions of the “Last Morning”. However, the type of feelings expressed without words depends on which version of the scene “Understanding” occurred beforehand (cue page 232 for reference and clarification).

In the HA version a romantic scene takes place before the “Last Morning,” but in the LA version a non-romantic scene takes place. Thus, the “feelings without words” during Tifa’s “moment” can either be romantic or platonic depending on which version of “Understanding” came before “Last Morning” (cue page 232 for reference).

After the scene “Last Morning,” an exchange between Cloud and Tifa occurs in both versions:

Tifa "Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back. As long as we’re together. With you by my side, I’ll never give up no matter how bad it gets.
Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa "Yes... That's right!"
(He nods)

From this I conclude that the feelings that were expressed without words in the scene “Last Morning,” are that Cloud and Tifa don't feel alone anymore because they realize that they have each other.

The feelings between Tifa and Cloud can either be platonic or romantic, depending on which version of the scene “Understanding” took place prior. But just by Cloud allowing this moment of intimacy to take place in both versions means that their feelings of wanting to feel safe and secure before heading into the final battle matched without words.

Here’s the exact quote on the FTOIL page: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

Well…
1. Cloud allowed Tifa to have her non-verbal “moment” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”
2. Tifa’s moment was “without words” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”
3. The feelings expressed during this scene are that of not wanting to feel “alone” (as stated by Tifa and Cloud when they return to the Highwind)
4. These feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa's affection level and which version of "Understanding" took place prior (cue page 232 for reference)
5. The screenshot on the FTOIL is taken directly from the scene “Last Morning,” thus the caption must be referring to this scene and moment shared by Tifa and Cloud.

Therefore, the character and story summaries could be referring to either version of the Highwind scene since in both versions feelings are expressed without words during the scene “Last Morning”.

Oh and if you don’t believe that Cloud allowed Tifa to have her moment in the LA version because he replied with “......” (even though they are shown sitting together silently with their heads resting on each other, and the scene eventually fades to black), then you also agree that Cloud rejects Tifa (which is what I've always thought) when he replies with “…………” to Tifa saying, “Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking...”. Consistency is important!

And even if you don't believe that the FTOIL page is talking about the "Last Morning" scene (ignoring the fact that pictures and captions usually match, and the fact that feelings are expressed without words during both versions of the "Last Morning" scene), I still maintain that all SE is saying on the FTOIL page is that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene occurs. Who Cloud loves romantically is not determined on the FTOIL page.

Furthermore, SE proclaims both Aerith and Tifa to be the heroines of Final Fantasy VII. The FTOIL page is discussing love between the heroes and heroines of the Final Fantasy series. If SE was trying to unequivocally declare that Cloti is canon on the FTOIL page, why wouldn’t they have included a picture of the C/T date instead of the C/A date? Or simply not included a picture of the date scene at all?

What is the purpose of showing Cloud with Aerith under a page discussing romantic love between heroes and heroines? The answer should be obvious -- there is no reason to include this scene unless there is the possibility of love existing between Cloud and Aerith.

To me, common sense suggests that this page is telling us that love can exist between either pairing (especially considering a love triangle is a firmly established component of Final Fantasy VII’s story).

I believe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women but that it’s up to each one of us to decide whom he loves romantically.

"Quotes? Give it to me or I won't believe you."

All of the quotes have been provided throughout this thread. Furthermore, I recently included several quotes to substantiate most of my claims on the previous two pages.

Many Cloti's disagree with my interpretation of the quotes I provided, but I also disagree with your interpretation of the FTOIL page.

For example, I believe that when Tifa says, "…go to your room," that means Cloud has his own room separate from Tifa. This is further confirmed to me when SE states that Marlene was sleeping in the same bed as Tifa (it doesn't say she slept in the same bed as Tifa AND Cloud).

Where was Cloud sleeping when Marlene was sleeping with just Tifa? Probably in his "room" …(or maybe he snuck on over to Aerith’s Church?).

In addition, there are screenshots of Cloud's room with a bed in it.

All of this is enough evidence for me to reasonably conclude that Tifa and Cloud sleep in separate rooms. That might not be enough evidence for you to reasonably conclude that Tifa and Cloud sleep separately, but it doesn't surprise me that those who ship Cloud x Tifa wouldn't agree with my interpretation of the evidence I provided.

I’m not trying to convince you that Clerith is canon. What I’m trying to convince you of is that virtually every bit of evidence SE provides is purposely vague because SE wants the LTD to be decided by each one of us.

To me, the FTOIL page is yet another piece of evidence that is ambiguous and vague. It appears to me that what SE is trying to convey is that Cloud can have a possible romantic relationship with either Tifa or Aerith. No other Final Fantasy protagonist is shown with two women.

Anyway...
I could spend hours trying to convince you that the hand reach scene is romantic, or that the Cosmo Canyon scene is romantic, or that the ending of AC is romantic, or that the quotes saying Cloud is Aerith’s Kobito implies romance, or that specific dialogue between Cloud and Aerith is romantic, or that Cloud living in Aerith’s church is romantic, or how Aerith's Church is said to be Cloud's Promised Land, or that the C/A date scene is canon, or how it is romantic that Cloud wants to find the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith, or that Tifa believes friends can form a family together, or that Barret is also apart of the 7th Heaven family, or that Tifa and Cloud sleep separately, or that Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud, or that Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship, or how Zerith doesn't disprove Clerith, or how Tifa says that the family she formed with Cloud isn't a "real" family, or how Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, or how love can continue after death and that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, or how a childhood crush doesn't mean anything, or how the lifestream sequence doesn't prove Cloti, or how Aerith starts off with 20 more affection points than Tifa for a reason (etc. etc. etc. etc.)……but you don’t see the LTD from the same perspective as I do. And that’s fine. All I’m trying to show is that the FTOIL page is yet another example of SE leaving it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically.

The reason I think this debate is so difficult is because SE has provided evidence that clearly shows Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa (ie: this is a love triangle). But what SE has not been so clear about is who Cloud loves platonically and who Cloud loves romantically.

"Ingus and Sarah has an undeniable romantic situation!? When and where?"

I said "virtually" every other Final Fantasy couple has undeniable romantic scenes.

If SE wanted to unequivocally show that Cloti is canon through a romantic scene they could do it (yet they haven’t). And let me tell you, they would do it far better than what they did on the FTOIL page.

"And you just contradicted yourself. You just said that even Clerith don't have undeniable romantic situations when in the past posts you keep on referencing all the evidences of Clerith romance. So you say those aren't undeniable? Okay."

I never contradicted myself.

The evidence I use in favor of Clerith is my own interpretation (I've been very upfront about that).

"Then there is no reason either to put Cloud and Tifa there either if love cannot exist between them."

I never said love can’t exist between Cloud and Tifa. You are free to interpret the LTD that way.

My point is that because Cloud is pictured with two women on a page discussing love between heroes and their heroines, love has the possibility to exist between both pairings. Furthermore, I don't think the FTOIL page canonizes C/T based on the evidence I provided above.

The bottom line is: there is no official quote from SE saying that Cloud loves Tifa, or that they are romantically involved with one another. All Cloti’s have is one interpretation of what a single page is supposedly saying.

Looking at the original game, Advent Children, and all the other compilation material, I see evidence that supports both pairings. It is clear that Cloud can have romantic feelings for either Tifa or Aerith, but neither pairing (in my opinion) has been declared canon by SE.

 

[Strangelove]

Where are the scene names coming from? Why have they been separated like that?

If you look at this image here showing the script of that seen (the link seems to lead to a different image but it looks like it only includes the "words aren't the only way...." "Tifa..." bit), but it includes images from both the night before and the morning after. Since both of those are pictured, would that suggest that the editors of this book being talked about consider these scenes to be counted as one?

Plus the subheading for the scene on the page states that it is "the night before" (前&#22812, whereas the other part of the scene takes place the following morning on what I would assume is the following day, the day of the final battle with Sephiroth.

And is this page, which is about romantic love (and not in the little side box about other sorts of love), now talking about a couple confirming that they are not alone?

Wow it's early but I think alcoholic drinks are calling my name.

This is a page about romantic love. Cloud and Tifa's scene is on there, without any mention of player influence (unlike the date one). Yet there is a possibility that that one entry. on a page about romantic. love. is actually talking about feelings of non-romantic togetherness. and not love.

How does that make sense? If you don't believe that this page makes the high affection scene 'canon' so be it. But where is the sense in trying to spin it around so that they are possibly maybe taking about the non-romantic alternative version on a page all about romance? Even if it does highlight the date scene as having player influenced variables, half of those (Aerith and Tifa's) are clearly romantic. It's safe to assume that it's not talking about Barret's date scene. Unless you're really reaching for straws.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Three of the four are about attempted confessions. Two end with Cloud not getting what was being hinted at, the third ends with Yuffie kissing him and Cloud being unimpressed. The dates are about attempted romance.

Likewise, the Highwind scene- because it technically doesn't matter 'which' scene it was, because we are being told what happened here- is about Cloud and Tifa confirming their mutual romantic feelings for each other.

Of course, it's not like this is the scene that Decides if Cloud and Tifa love each other. It's just the scene that decides if they act on it right then. That they do have those feelings for each other is revealed during the Lifestream sequence, which is not up to player choice at all.

Say, does anyone feel like they're playing against a checklist of talking points and PRATTs?

 

[BlankBeat]

Where are the scene names coming from? Why have they been separated like that?

They are coming from here, here, here and here.

If you look at this image here showing the script of that seen (the link seems to lead to a different image but it looks like it only includes the "words aren't the only way...." "Tifa..." bit), but it includes images from both the night before and the morning after. Since both of those are pictured, would that suggest that the editors of this book being talked about consider these scenes to be counted as one?

This is the only picture of Cloud and Tifa that I see on the FTOIL page, but I could be mistaken:

That screenshot is from the scene "Last Morning". I maintain that pictures and captions tend to match.

But you brought up a good point. The caption says "The night before..."

Well, I honestly believe that the "Last Morning" could still be considered apart of that night since it's one big sequence between Cloud and Tifa. Furthermore, it's still dark during that scene, and the scene fades to black (clearly the day has not arrived yet if the scene fades to black). But that is only my interpretation, and I admit that there is an obvious difference between the word "night" and "morning".

What I'm struggling with is why SE decided to include a screenshot from the scene "Last Morning," and NOT from the scene "Understanding". It would only make logical sense (if the caption was talking about the scene "Understanding) to include a screenshot from that specific scene.

Why wouldn't the screenshot be specifically of Tifa saying, "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."??? If SE was truly talking about that specific piece of dialogue and not the "Last Morning," they would have simply included a screenshot from that specific point in the Highwind sequence.

What's interesting to note is that it is only assumed that Cloud confirms to Tifa "without words" that their feelings match in the scene "Understanding" because Cloud's response is ".............." and the scene fades to black.

On the contrary, in the scene "Last Morning," you actually see Cloud confirm to Tifa (without words) that his feelings match by allowing Tifa to have her intimate moment that she requested.

Therefore, a moment of intimacy is explicitly shown between Cloud and Tifa "without words" in the scene that is actually pictured above the caption.

The caption also says that this happens, "...before the final battle with Sephiroth...", -- the "Last Morning" also occurs before the final battle with Sephiroth.

The FTOIL page is not clear about which scene it is referring to. The caption includes the word "night," yet the screenshot is of the "morning".

Yet, in both scenes a moment of intimacy takes place. But only in the "Last Morning" scene is the moment of non-verbal intimacy explicitly shown.

Based on this I don't think the FTOIL page is very conclusive evidence. If SE was talking about the "Understanding" scene, why didn't they make it easy for us and include a screenshot of Tifa saying, "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."? Why did they decide to include a screenshot of the scene "Last Morning" (which has an intimate moment "without words" in both versions)?

And is this page, which is about romantic love (and not in the little side box about other sorts of love), now talking about a couple confirming that they are not alone?

Yes, the page is talking about romantic love.

The scene "Last Morning" occurs in both the HA version and the LA version (the conversation is slightly different between the two versions) . Therefore, Cloud and Tifa could either feel safe and secure knowing that they have each other romantically, or Cloud and Tifa could feel safe and secure knowing that they have each other platonically. It just depends on Tifa's affection level and which version of the Highwind scene takes place (cue page 232 for reference).

Also...in both versions a conversation takes place back at the Highwind immediately following the moment of intimacy shared in "Last Morning". Tifa and Cloud have a conversation where they express to each other that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. Since this conversation occurs in both versions it must mean that Cloud and Tifa can either feel secure in having each other either romantically OR platonically. Remember, this conversation takes place immediately following the intimate non-verbal moment that is shared between Cloud and Tifa in both versions of "Last Morning".

The FTOIL page is obviously referring to the romantic version of the scene "Last Morning" (but doesn't say it's canon). Intimacy is shared in both versions of the scene "Last Morning," and the conversation back aboard the Highwind takes place in both versions too. Therefore, it is not clear which version is canon and which version the character and story summaries are referring to when they say "feelings are expressed without words" since in both versions of "Last Morning" feelings are expressed without words.

The FTOIL page is not conclusive evidence. Cloud is shown with two women in two variable scenes, it is not stated which scene the caption is referring to, two versions of the Highwind scene exist, and neither Highwind scene has been declared canon. Cloud loves both women but who he loves romantically is up to our own interpretation.

 

[looneymoon]

Coming into this thread, I feel like I'm Dave Strider giving a thumbs up to his past self.

Party on cool kids.

Party on.

 

[Max Payne]

Wow this all brings back memories.

Carry on.

 

[Strangelove]

They are coming from here, here, here and here.

But these are things fans have made. I've written transcripts for things before and put titles on just because I wanted to. It doesn't really carry any weight when talking about the actual thing.

I don't think it matters where you arbitrarily split the scene up since narratively it's all part of one series of scenes.

This is the only picture of Cloud and Tifa that I see on the FTOIL page, but I could be mistaken:

http://thelifestream.net/compilatio...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/3/

That's the link I meant to post before. Specifically this image (the link needs fixing for that, I had to mess with the URL manually to get the readable one):

http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/ff20thuhighwind.jpg

That's from the same book as the other page, and while it only features the script for the night before (assuming the rest hasn't been cut off) it features images from both the night and the morning. Which I would take as meaning they view the whole thing as a single entity.

I think you're getting too caught up in this divide between one part of the scene and the other, and this focus on ultimately trivial detail is clouding the bigger picture.

What's interesting to note is that it is only assumed that Cloud confirms to Tifa "without words" that their feelings match in the scene "Understanding" because Cloud's response is ".............." and the scene fades to black.

Cloud responding with "......" to Tifa's remark is a mistake in the English game, where originally he answered her by saying her name: "Tifa......" You can see this on the script given above, and lolz i played the game in japanese and saw it myself anyway.

I don't know if that's the 'only' reason people assume so. I think whatever the 'showing how you feel without words' entailed, it happened in that blank between night and morning that we didn't see and is left up to the player's imagination what happens.

But only in the "Last Morning" scene is the moment of non-verbal intimacy explicitly shown.

A story includes more than what is explicitly shown. I mean, you were talking about Cloud going to meet Aerith during the credits of AC which wasn't explicitly shown yet that's what you view as happening. Explicitly he rode alone a road through a field with no clear indication of stopping.

I think trying to shift the outcome of Tifa's line to resulting in her resting her head on Cloud's shoulder, regardless as to whether or not you think that version of the scene is in the official/'canon' continuity, lessens the meaning and impact of the line.

And why would there be non-verbal intimacy in the lower affection version of the scene, when the line that gives poignancy to such an act is absent from it? There is no narrative relevance to such an scene if it wasn't following from the higher affection one.

What I'm struggling with is why SE decided to include a screenshot from the scene "Last Morning," and NOT from the scene "Understanding". It would only make logical sense (if the caption was talking about the scene "Understanding) to include a screenshot from that specific scene.

Skipping on the arbitrary separation of the scene again, maybe they just wanted to use a different image. Tifa's 'word's aren't the only way' screencap is used on that script page. Perhaps they simply wanted not to repeat the same images over and over in the same book (and don't view the two scenes you're talking about as actually being separate).

The FTOIL page is not clear about which scene it is referring to.

Only one version of the scene mentions anything about showing feelings without words, which is something that the caption ('feelings they can't communicate with words') emphasises.

Do you see how it's not a massive leap to draw the conclusion that the page (whether or not you believe that it made that scene the official choice for continuity) is talking about the higher affection scene in that case?



this is the longest non-translation post i have made here in ages and it has to be here of all threads

 

[BlankBeat]

But these are things fans have made. I've written transcripts for things before and put titles on just because I wanted to. It doesn't really carry any weight when talking about the actual thing.

It does seem strange that all these fans have split the scenes up in the exact same way.

I don't think it matters where you arbitrarily split the scene up since narratively it's all part of one series of scenes.

If we agree that this is all one sequence, then when the caption says, "the night before," it could also be referring to this specific moment:

It would make sense that if SE views this as all one sequence, and the fact that this screenshot is shown above the caption, that they could very likely be referring to THAT specific moment shared between Cloud and Tifa.

It isn't as if the screenshot is of Tifa and Cloud standing next to one another. The screenshot is specifically of the point at which Cloud and Tifa intimately sit together and share feelings "without words". This happens in both the LA and HA version. Since this intimate scene is in both versions, we can't be sure which version most of the character and story summaries are referring to.

How can we be sure SE is not referring to the moment that is pictured? The moment that is pictured also follows along with what the caption says, and since captions and pictures typically correspond together, it seems to me that SE is referring to that specific moment of non-verbal intimacy between Cloud and Tifa.

Given that we are talking about the FTOIL page, SE should have included a screenshot of the point at which Tifa says that thoughts (not feelings) can be expressed without words. SE should not have included a screenshot of another non-verbal intimate moment that is shared between Cloud and Tifa in both the HA and LA version of the Highwind sequence.

Cloud responding with "......" to Tifa's remark is a mistake in the English game, where originally he answered her by saying her name: "Tifa......" You can see this on the script given above, and lolz i played the game in japanese and saw it myself anyway.

Saying, "Tifa......" doesn't imply confirmation either.

A story includes more than what is explicitly shown. I mean, you were talking about Cloud going to meet Aerith during the credits of AC which wasn't explicitly shown yet that's what you view as happening. Explicitly he rode alone a road through a field with no clear indication of stopping.

That's why I believe the LTD is up to player interpretation.

Skipping on the arbitrary separation of the scene again, maybe they just wanted to use a different image. Tifa's 'word's aren't the only way' screencap is used on that script page. Perhaps they simply wanted not to repeat the same images over and over in the same book (and don't view the two scenes you're talking about as actually being separate).

These are all guesses.

I'm assuming that the picture and caption correspond directly. The picture shown is that of a non-verbal intimate moment that is shared in both the LA and HA version of the Highwind scene. This means that how you decide to play the game determines if this intimate moment is platonic or romantic.

Do you see how it's not a massive leap to draw the conclusion that the page (whether or not you believe that it made that scene the official choice for continuity) is talking about the higher affection scene in that case?

Yes, the FTOIL page IS talking about the HA version. But it doesn't say the HA version is canon.

In both versions of the Highwind sequence a non-verbal intimate scene occurs between Cloud and Tifa. This scene is the one that is pictured on the FTOIL page. Therefore, non-verbal feelings are expressed between Cloud and Tifa in BOTH the LA and HA version of the Highwind sequence. This means that how you decide to play the game determines if this intimate moment is platonic or romantic.

The FTOIL page also shows Cloud with two women in two variable scenes.

 

[Splintered]

I get super excited when I see Hito in a thread that was talking about translation stuffs because it's like a supernatural entity bringing water and knowledge to the masses IDK MAN.

Also some actual LTD thoughts:

I got no problem with people thinking that Cloud has a different room. I think if you are a fan and see a room with a bed, words like "go drink in your room" and and Tifa originally sleeping with Marlene that if someone goes to the conclusion "they don't sleep together" then that's perfectly logical. Not saying there's evidence to the contrary but it's still a perfectly natural assumption.

I also have little issues with interpretation theory of LTD just because why not. I think the idea that Cloud did have feelings for Aerith wonderfully tragic and I have my own interpretations on the relationship. I just have an issue with how some of these issues cast the relationship between Tifa and Cloud.

Like Cloud constantly leaving Seventh Heaven to live in the church, no. Cloud lived at Seventh Heaven and visited the church, because there is a strong connection to Aerith. Cloud also seemed to have visited Zack's grave too, doesn't mean he is in love with him (or is if you are one of those Clackers). Cloud's return to the church to live there wasn't romantic at all, it was an action of running away and literally living in his guilt. That's not to say that his feelings for Aerith were not romantic, it's just saying that what he was doing was extremely unhealthy. The church went from a a loving memory to a symbol of his failure and wallowing in his ineptitude.

Him leaving the family wasn't because he didn't want to be there. Yes there were issues of it occasionally being awkward, but it was awkward for everyone, including Tifa- but they all loved each other and worked out their issues. The only reason that Cloud left was because he got geostigma and thought he failed his family- this isn't a matter on interpenetration because he says this directly. Him and Marlene get a scene where they vomit exposition towards eachother and describe exactly why Cloud left and how he felt about it.

My other issue is the idea that Cloud and Tifa are a couple that will always fight and never find happiness. Which is bullshit. Cloud and Tifa will have problems in their relationship yes, this much we know from word of god. But that doesn't mean they are constantly fighting, it means that as flawed individuals, every now and then there will be misunderstandings. But the most important part of the statement is that they will always overcome these problems. There will never be an issue that can't be resolved, and they will always be together as a family. That's the important part. Cloud's family is his promised land, not a perfectkawaiieverythingisperfect land of rainbows, but a place where he overcomes his hurdles with those he loves.

or that the ending of AC is romantic

I have no problems with the other scenes having romantic connotations but I can't get behind this. For one the ending of AC has been completely taken out, it simply wasn't important. Instead it was replaced with a scene of Cloud and Denzel going to Zack's grave and the starting part of Cloud's real journey, and a picture of Zack's sword in what is left of Aerith's church. If the ending was suppose to translate into a romantic scene, they would not have left it out nor would they have placed the symbol of Zack with the symbol of Aerith.

The ending of AC/C wasn't suppose to put to rest romance issues, but Cloud's personal issues- those with the people he lives and interacts with (to not push them away and accept the risk and fight for them) and his insecurity (where he conquers his fears and self loathing). And instead of wallowing in these memories and seeing them as people he let die, he accepts their tragedies and reflects on them as memes he has cherished, hence no longer living in the church while dying- instead being flooded by healing water- and a polished Buster Sword.

And there's just a lot more that reflects that Cloud is with his family end game. Not just word of creator, but things like Reminiscence of Final Fantasy, where there is a short skit of Cloud asking Tifa to close the bar so that they can have a family outing and the rest of the team calling him (iirc, these also had scenes from the first ending, ie long stretches of road implying that even with the first ending, this was less about meeting Aerith and more about driving home to see his family). But even if the narrative ending wasn't a huge tip off, ie waking up surrounded by his families and friends, smiling and healed with Aerith and Zack saying he'll be okay now and walking away and towards the light, then at least the end of the new novel The Kids Are Alright seems to be going in the same direction. From what I've read from Hito's translations, the ending scenes with Cloud has him referencing his family, drawing parallels of finding his own family to go to.

So yeah, no issue if people think Cloud is in love with Aerith. I can see why and honestly I do think it brings something to the story table even if I/others disagree with it. But I strongly disagree that Cloud prioritizes Aerith over his family and that Cloud can have an active romantic relationship with her.

 

[Lex]

Omg Splintered yes, yes on all points. I think it's fine for people to believe that Cloud/Aerith may have had romantic feelings for each other. It's perfectly plausible to come away from the original game on it's own with this viewpoint.

It just really bothers me when confirmed facts/ the canonicity of various moments are skewed/ twisted for the purpose of proving a non-existant point. For example, it's not an opinion that Square Enix have confirmed that Cloud and Tifa confirmed their mutual feelings beneath the Highwind the night before the final battle without using words, and it's not an opinion that the only instance of a situation "without using words" being directly alluded to is in the high affection Highwind scene. Therefore, it's not an opinion that Square Enix have confirmed the High Affection Highwind scene as canon. It's cold, hard fact.

A lot of what I've seen all over the internet from Clerith supporters is an avoidance of both this and other key facts. There's a lot of reaching going on, and it's a bit silly and confusing because Cloti supporters don't have to do that. Like I said before, if Clerith is your headcanon then excellent, but people need to stop finding ways to avoid what has been established as canon. Arguing against that, at least in my eyes, completely discredits the argument for it.

 

[Strangelove]

It does seem strange that all these fans have split the scenes up in the exact same way.

Probably because there's a nice break in the scene with the fade to black. But ultimately it's irrelevant if all these fans do it that way or another way. They are merely fans, making fan transcripts that have no bearing on the game itself.

It isn't as if the screenshot is of Tifa and Cloud standing next to one another. The screenshot is specifically of the point at which Cloud and Tifa intimately sit together and share feelings "without words". This happens in both the LA and HA version.

There is no reason for, and no meaning to, non-verbal intimacy in the lower affection variation. Because the line that whole concept hinges on is absent.

Again, I cannot get behind this notion at all. The result of Tifa's line about conveying feelings without words... is that they sit together quietly? Which happens even in the version of the scenes which doesn't have that line and thus has no reason for it being there because it follows on from nothing? And it is being talked about--it, a scene described constantly as the one with low affection--on a page about romantic love?

This is just all very bizarre.

Saying, "Tifa......" doesn't imply confirmation either.

I didn't say that it did. I just don't like seeing errors that are easily corrected. I don't care if it proves a certain side right or not. I just disagree with people if I have reason to disagree.

I'm assuming that the picture and caption correspond directly. The picture shown is that of a non-verbal intimate moment that is shared in both the LA and HA version of the Highwind scene. This means that how you decide to play the game determines if this intimate moment is platonic or romantic.

I am assuming they have simply taken one screenshot from that scene, to represent the scene as a whole.

Look at the one they picked for the date:

http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/ltdover3.jpg

It's of Aerith saying the fireworks are pretty. That's it. Why did they pick Aerith commenting on the aesthetics of pyrotechnics, rather then one of her deeper and meaningful lines from later on in the scene?

Are we meant to assume that this is the point of the conversation they want us to focus on? That Aerith's opinions on the fireworks at the Gold Saucer are worthy of serious consideration, because that's the screenshot they picked to represent that scene?

Yes, the FTOIL page IS talking about the HA version. But it doesn't say the HA version is canon.

In both versions of the Highwind sequence a non-verbal intimate scene occurs between Cloud and Tifa. This scene is the one that is pictured on the FTOIL page. Therefore, non-verbal feelings are expressed between Cloud and Tifa in BOTH the LA and HA version of the Highwind sequence. This means that how you decide to play the game determines if this intimate moment is platonic or romantic.

How does 'the page is talking about the HA version' and then talking about how it applies to both version jell? This is what I don't understand. When you say it's talking about the higher version, do you mean it's talking about it in addition to the other or something?

It is a page about romantic love. In the main section, and not the sidebox. I'm going to be stubborn and say there is no way that is talking about the possible platonic implication of a head resting on a shoulder. Regardless of it confirming which happened official in the series' overall continuity or not. It's a page about romance. It's talking about the romantic scenes.

Step back and look at what you're saying. A page about romantic love has dedicated space to talking about the possibly platonic variation of this one scene.

Look at the choices you are making here.

I get super excited when I see Hito in a thread that was talking about translation stuffs because it's like a supernatural entity bringing water and knowledge to the masses IDK MAN.

gosh (◕‿◕&#10047

 

[BlankBeat]

There is no reason for, and no meaning to, non-verbal intimacy in the lower affection variation. Because the line that whole concept hinges on is absent.

I disagree.

I believe the non-verbal intimacy in the low affection version is between two friends that do not want to feel alone heading into the final battle. In both versions Tifa and Cloud have a discussion aboard the Highwind that discusses these mutual feelings.

My interpretation of the FTOIL page is that it is referring to a moment that Tifa wants between her and Cloud in both versions. This moment is pictured above the caption on the FTOIL page.

The moment that is pictured can either have platonic or romantic connotations, depending on Tifa's affection level for Cloud (cue page 232). The romantic (but not canon) version is suggested on the FTOIL page simply because it is included on a page discussing romantic couples.

And just a side point: Tifa says, "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..." -- the caption refers to feelings, whereas Tifa's quote refers to what Cloud is thinking.

I am assuming they have simply taken one screenshot from that scene, to represent the scene as a whole.

Romantic feelings can be expressed, but only if the HA version is obtained. What the FTOIL page confirms to me is that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points.

Look at the one they picked for the date:

http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/ltdover3.jpg

It's of Aerith saying the fireworks are pretty. That's it. Why did they pick Aerith commenting on the aesthetics of pyrotechnics, rather then one of her deeper and meaningful lines from later on in the scene?

Are we meant to assume that this is the point of the conversation they want us to focus on? That Aerith's opinions on the fireworks at the Gold Saucer are worthy of serious consideration, because that's the screenshot they picked to represent that scene?

You bring up a very good point. I don't think the FTOIL page is intentionally trying to prove anything definitively given its ambiguity of photos chosen and way the captions are worded.

If SE was trying to show that the caption was specifically referring to the quote, "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."...they would have put that exact screenshot on the FTOIL page.

The FTOIL page is yet another example of SE providing ambiguous and contradictory information that supports Cloud's love for both Tifa and Aerith, but SE never definitively says who Cloud loves romantically.

It is a page about romantic love. In the main section, and not the sidebox. I'm going to be stubborn and say there is no way that is talking about the possible platonic implication of a head resting on a shoulder. Regardless of it confirming which happened official in the series' overall continuity or not. It's a page about romance. It's talking about the romantic scenes.

Yes, the scene CAN have romantic implications. That is why the scene is included on the FTOIL page. But just because it is included on the FTOIL page does not declare it canon, it just means that it is one way the story can unfold.

Here is my overall feelings on the LTD and the FTOIL page:

SE proclaims both Aerith and Tifa to be the heroines of Final Fantasy VII. The FTOIL page is discussing love between the heroes and heroines of the Final Fantasy series. If SE was trying to unequivocally declare that Cloti is canon on the FTOIL page, why wouldn’t they have included a picture of the C/T date instead of the C/A date? Or simply not included a picture of the date scene at all?

What is the purpose of showing Cloud with Aerith under a page discussing romantic love between heroes and heroines? The answer should be obvious -- there is no reason to include this scene unless there is the possibility of love existing between Cloud and Aerith.

To me, common sense suggests that this page is telling us that love can exist between either pairing (especially considering a love triangle is a firmly established component of Final Fantasy VII’s story).

The reason I think this debate is so difficult is because SE has provided evidence that clearly shows Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa (ie: this is a love triangle). But what SE has not been so clear about is who Cloud loves platonically and who Cloud loves romantically.

I believe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women but that it’s up to each one of us to decide whom he loves romantically.

 

[Strangelove]

then there isn't much more for me to say at this point that wouldn't just be restating myself since i have no further stuff to argue about (◕‿◕&#10047

 

[Zealkin]

I disagree.

I believe the non-verbal intimacy in the low affection version is between two friends that do not want to feel alone heading into the final battle. In both versions Tifa and Cloud have a discussion aboard the Highwind that discusses these mutual feelings.

My interpretation of the FTOIL page is that it is referring to a moment that Tifa wants between her and Cloud in both versions. This moment is pictured above the caption on the FTOIL page.

The moment you typed those bolded words you were already off-topic with this conversation.

We aren't talking about opinion, we aren't talking about interpretation, and we most certainly aren't talking about beliefs.

If this is all your opinion, then their is really no reason you should be trying to make it into something that is canonically validated.

You can have your opinion, but your opinion does not make something canon or non-canon. The fan-made term canon means:
Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

We are talking about official stuff here. By using terms like belief, and interpretation you are not speaking about canon, you are speaking about your opinion.

You may believe that the low HW scene meant something different to you personally, but beliefs are not canon.

Again I have to ask:
Blankbeat, honestly if you believe that the love triangle is not over fine.

But why are you trying to convince us so badly? Honestly, what are you trying to get out of this? You keep repeating that it's our opinion, and if that's the case shouldn't you just leave things alone?

Why does it annoy you that people have come to a different conclusion than you? Why should this even matter, if it's all just up to interpretation like you've said?

 

[Splintered]

But why are you trying to convince us so badly? Honestly, what are you trying to get out of this? You keep repeating that it's our opinion, and if that's the case shouldn't you just leave things alone?

It's Ryu's essay from two years ago. There are random but very dedicated campaigns that pop up here and tumblr dedicated to discrediting it. Which is fine I guess.

I believe the non-verbal intimacy in the low affection version is between two friends that do not want to feel alone heading into the final battle. In both versions Tifa and Cloud have a discussion aboard the Highwind that discusses these mutual feelings.

If they both discuss mutual feelings- how is it not romantic?

Tifa's feeling are always romantic for Cloud, there's no way around it. This is especially obvious considering that they just came out of an extremely exhausting, but personal find yourself moment in the lifestream, in which they reached a level of intimate understanding in themselves and with each other that ended with Cloud confessing his feeling he had when he was younger, and Tifa pretty much stating these as well.

It seems incredibly backwards to go from here, a time where they were literally soul searching side by side, and explaining how they felt for each other those days, admitting that they only have each other left when the party members went away, to being "lets be friends." Especially awkward when Cloud is the one that pushed for them to move on and that they could start a life with each other, implying that something has changed in their relationship from before (you always had me, etc).

 

[BlankBeat]

But why are you trying to convince us so badly? Honestly, what are you trying to get out of this? You keep repeating that it's our opinion, and if that's the case shouldn't you just leave things alone?

Why does it annoy you that people have come to a different conclusion than you? Why should this even matter, if it's all just up to interpretation like you've said?

1. I'm trying to point out that the FTOIL page does not unequivocally show that Cloti has been deemed canon. If anything, it continues along with SE continually providing ambiguous, vague, and often contradictory bits of information. (A. Cloud is pictured with two women in two variable scenes. He's the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women. It appears to me that SE is continuing on with the theme of a love triangle by showing Cloud pictured with two women in two variable scenes. B. The caption never says which moment of the Highwind scene it is referring to. I believe the caption is referring to the moment that is pictured, not the moment where Tifa says words aren't the only way Cloud can express how he's "THINKING" (she never said the word "feeling"). C. Where does the FTOIL page say anything other than Tifa and Cloud have the possibility of becoming a romantic couple (which depends on player controlled affection points that determines which version of the Highwind scene is obtained)? It never says, "in the HA version Tifa and Cloud's romantic feelings match" -- it only says that their feelings match. What type of feelings are never explicitly stated. Maybe the feelings are of not feeling alone heading into the final battle, which are conveniently expressed in both versions of the Highwind scene?)

2. It annoys me because instead of saying it is only one interpretation that the FTOIL page is saying that Cloti is canon, this site proclaims (rather arrogantly) that this is the only conclusion one could possibly draw when looking at the FTOIL page. Since this is a neutral site, I do not think it is responsible or appropriate to spread what is an interpretation as cold hard fact. Given how many Final Fantasy fans frequent this site, there is an added responsibility to make sure what is reported here is actually fact and not someone's interpretation.

3. My overall point is that the love triangle debate has always been about exactly that, a love triangle. Obviously SE is going to provide evidence that supports both pairings since a love triangle is firmly established in Final Fantasy VII's story. And I think it's obvious that Cloud has special and unique feelings for both Tifa and Aerith that are different than the feelings he has for all other characters. Why is it so radical to think that SE hasn't canonized Cloud's romantic feelings, and has left it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically? Obviously Cloud loves both women, but who he loves romantically has never been officially declared by SE. Yet, this site says that SE has officially declared the love triangle in favor of C/T. That's what I have a problem with -- spreading interpretation and opinion as fact.

 

[Lex]

2. It annoys me because instead of saying it is only one interpretation that the FTOIL page is saying that Cloti is canon, this site proclaims (rather arrogantly) that this is the only conclusion one could possibly draw when looking at the FTOIL page. Since this is a neutral site, I do not think it is responsible or appropriate to spread what is an interpretation as cold hard fact. Given how many Final Fantasy fans frequent this site, there is an added responsibility to make sure what is reported here is actually fact and not someone's interpretation.

3. My overall point is that the love triangle debate has always been about exactly that, a love triangle. Obviously SE is going to provide evidence that supports both pairings since a love triangle is firmly established in Final Fantasy VII's story. And I think it's obvious that Cloud has special and unique feelings for both Tifa and Aerith that are different than the feelings he has for all other characters. Why is it so radical to think that SE hasn't canonized Cloud's romantic feelings, and has left it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically? Obviously Cloud loves both women, but who he loves romantically has never been officially declared by SE. Yet, this site says that SE has officially declared the love triangle in favor of C/T. That's what I have a problem with -- spreading interpretation and opinion as fact.

Holy guacamole. The site is in no way "spreading interpretation and opinion as fact", it is examining and discussing the facts and what has been established as canon. You've been conveniently ignoring the posts that point out this simple truth, so I'm going to say this again for a third time.

The FTOIL page clearly established the High Affection Highwind scene as canon. That isn't an interpretation. That is absolute, solid fact.

This site is about bringing together and expanding upon the knowledge of Final Fantasy VII using various sources, occasionally discussing plot/ story elements. It's about digging into the dark dusty reaches of everything official. It's not about fan interpretation, and where fans have written essays that are theory or interpretation, such is stated at the beginning.

The FTOIL page is not meant to be interpreted or debated or discussed. The high affection scene is canon. The high affection scene happened. That is solid, unmovable, freezing cold, never going to change fact. No one is trying to argue in favour of that - it's just there for all to read and see.

It doesn't mean you can't believe Cloud and Aerith loved each other, so please stop trying to "disprove" it.

 

[looneymoon]

As dumb as this site a forums can be, I can at least say that the articles posted on the front page have consistently been well-written, factually sound and full of integrity.

I mean you can say it's biased or whatever as much as you want, but you're honestly not going to find anyone in the world as well-versed in the canon of this game as the people who write for this site.

Unless SE releases something that completely overturns what we already know about the game, your opinions will continuously be debunked in the way an earnest undergrad would be by someone with their doctorate.

 

[BlankBeat]

Holy guacamole. The site is in no way "spreading interpretation and opinion as fact", it is examining and discussing the facts and what has been established as canon. You've been conveniently ignoring the posts that point out this simple truth, so I'm going to say this again for a third time.

The FTOIL page clearly established the High Affection Highwind scene as canon. That isn't an interpretation. That is absolute, solid fact.

This site is about bringing together and expanding upon the knowledge of Final Fantasy VII using various sources, occasionally discussing plot/ story elements. It's about digging into the dark dusty reaches of everything official. It's not about fan interpretation, and where fans have written essays that are theory or interpretation, such is stated at the beginning.

The FTOIL page is not meant to be interpreted or debated or discussed. The high affection scene is canon. The high affection scene happened. That is solid, unmovable, freezing cold, never going to change fact. No one is trying to argue in favour of that - it's just there for all to read and see.

It doesn't mean you can't believe Cloud and Aerith loved each other, so please stop trying to "disprove" it.

Where does it specify in the caption that it is referring to the HA version? You are only assuming it has to be the HA version because the FOTIL page is talking about romantic couples. But maybe SE was trying to show that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple by purposely including a screenshot of a scene that appears in both the HA and LA version, and could be viewed as either romantic or platonic depending on Tifa's affection level?

Furthermore, where does it say what type of feelings are expressed between Tifa and Cloud? They could very well be feelings of not feeling alone heading into the final battle.

And even if the HA sequence is confirmed as canon, Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings could have matched "without words" while Tifa was having her "moment" with Cloud in this scene (a scene that occurs in the HA version and is pictured directly above the caption):

There is also no reason to include a picture of Cloud with Aerith on a page discussing romantic couples unless romance can exist between them. Why would you picture Cloud with Aerith if you were trying to unequivocally claim that Cloti is canon? It seems strange that SE wouldn't put a picture of the C/T date scene if they were trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon.

And your last sentence hits on a very important point: Cloud loves both women. Who he loves romantically is up to interpretation. But even if you believe he loves both women romantically, then the question becomes who does he love more? And that, my friends, is clearly up to interpretation.

 

[Strangelove]

Where does it specify in the caption that it is referring to the HA version? You are only assuming it has to be the HA version because the FOTIL page is talking about romantic couples. But maybe SE was trying to show that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple by purposely including a screenshot of a scene that appears in both the HA and LA version, and could be viewed as either romantic or platonic depending on Tifa's affection level?

then why not make a point of its optionalness by highlighting the fact like the caption for the date did with its variables?

Furthermore, where does it say what type of feelings are expressed between Tifa and Cloud? They could very well be feelings of not feeling alone heading into the final battle.

but is that what a page about romance is talking about

There is also no reason to include a picture of Cloud with Aerith on a page discussing romantic couples unless romance can exist between them. Why would you picture Cloud with Aerith if you were trying to unequivocally claim that Cloti is canon? It seems strange that SE wouldn't put a picture of the C/T date scene if they were trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon.

And your last sentence hits on a very important point: Cloud loves both women. Who he loves romantically is up to interpretation. But even if you believe he loves both women romantically, then the question becomes who does he love more? And that, my friends, is clearly up to interpretation.

what if love isn't a matter of 'loves x more' and 'loves y less'