The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Splintered]

It's a miracle, I still remember my password here lol.

Anyways, hope I'm not intruding but before I get lazy again,does anyone have a rough estimate of how many ultimanias we currently have for FF7 now?

According to the Franchise Thread on the main page, there's 9 that have at least passing mention of FFVII (like the Dissidia ultis). Tres has a page where he talks about the FFVII canon, and even though I'm not sure I agree with everything it's a good read.

EDIT: I seemed to have misread because at least four of them are the same ulti just broken down in different parts. Oh well

 

[Dashell]

It's a miracle, I still remember my password here lol.

Anyways, hope I'm not intruding but before I get lazy again,does anyone have a rough estimate of how many ultimanias we currently have for FF7 ?

As far as I know just FFVII has the FFVII Ultimania Omega and the FFVII 10th Anniversary AU. Again that's just FFVII but I can't help but think there's three and one I'm missing

 

[Ryushikaze]

As far as I know just FFVII has the FFVII Ultimania Omega and the FFVII 10th Anniversary AU. Again that's just FFVII but I can't help but think there's three and one I'm missing

There's the Crisis Core Ultimania, the Reunion Files, Dismantled, and Prologue as far as only FF7 franchise specific guidebooks.

There's also the U20 and Dissidia books for FF7 details.

 

[Dashell]

Right but specifically he said Ultimanias and "FFVII" so I assumed he just wanted Ultimanias and not the other guidebooks... Mr Showoffypants

Though I was going to post in here Dismantled myself so

 

[Ryushikaze]

Right but specifically he said Ultimanias and "FFVII" so I assumed he just wanted Ultimanias and not the other guidebooks... Mr Showoffypants

Though I was going to post in here Dismantled myself so

Hence why I started with CCU and ended with two other Ultimania books also involving FF7.

Of course, it goes without saying I await with an admitted grim amusement to see what he's going to get up to with the various materials. I suspect it will be less than honest in intent and in execution.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think this is a valid point that I encountered somewhere else.

Actually, P232 again confirms that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other, noting only in a sidebar that different versions can occur depending on Tifa's affection value. Contrariwise, the story summaries almost universally declare- without mention to variability- that Cloud and Tifa share feelings, using the same terms used to describe Locke and Celes's romantic sharing.

Some people argued that if SE really wants to confirm Cloti, why did they blatantly include the deviations in Page 232 when Celes and Locke's got a different treatment? Locke/Celes have an optional confession, but there is no page number referring to this fact. The FFVII romance is the only one indicated with optionality despite not being the only optional romantic confession. (I haven't seen the Celes/Locke page myself so I can't confirm this myself.)

A lot of TLS critics cry out this argument and say that leaving out this fact is either bias or a big hole in the whole Cloti position. Like always, it affects the credibility of the site.

 

[Strangelove]

I think this is a valid point that I encountered somewhere else.



Some people argued that if SE really wants to confirm Cloti, why did they blatantly include the deviations in Page 232 when Celes and Locke's got a different treatment? Locke/Celes have an optional confession, but there is not page number referring to this fact. The FFVII romance is the only one indicated with optionality despite not being the only optional romantic confession.

has anyone actually looked at the page given for locke/celes? (i don't mean that sarcastically or anything, i mean i don't remember seeing anything online about any of the other pages beyond the highwind page. is there even an image of the date's page?)

 

[Dashell]

I think this is a valid point that I encountered somewhere else.

Some people argued that if SE really wants to confirm Cloti, why did they blatantly include the deviations in Page 232 when Celes and Locke's got a different treatment? Locke/Celes have an optional confession, but there is no page number referring to this fact. The FFVII romance is the only one indicated with optionality despite not being the only optional romantic confession. (I haven't seen the Celes/Locke page myself so I can't confirm this myself.)

A lot of TLS critics cry out this argument and say that leaving out this fact is either bias or a big hole in the whole Cloti position. Like always, it affects the credibility of the site.

I don't know much about Celes/Locke, but is their confessional completely optional or are there two different versions of the scene like the Highwind scene? How are other actually optional scenes treated (not scenes with more than one outcome, completely optional scenes all together)

Either way valid point you bring up sir, well played. (If this is accurate anyway, I'd still like to see a scan)

 

[Ryushikaze]

The nature of FFVI means that over half the game's content is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL.

As soon as you get your fourth party member and the airship on the world of ruin, you are good to go for the end of the game (in that you can go right to the final dungeon)

So, yeah, Locke/Celes reuniting, talking about each other, him finding closure about his old girlfriend and how he feels he caused her death, all entirely optional.
So, of course, is Tina/Terra rejoining the fight, Shadow being alive, him rejoining your party, everything apart from the first four people you have to meet on the WoR, everything but them and killing Kefka is optional in any playthrough.

I don't remember if the Locke/ Celes variations are covered. What I DO know is that that the option to kill or keep shadow is mentioned, while shadow's survival is treated as a matter of fact in the story summaries, same at the confession under the highwind.

In short, for FFVI, optional shit and variable shit is assumed to have a singular answer. For FFIV, it's assumed Rydia got all the summons in IV.

Speaking of Shadow, I'm not entirely certain that very well understood facts about him have ever been explicitly canonized. I wonder if we should have a 'Shadow Identity debate' to settle those, since we've never had an announcement about those.

Likewise, if Square was going to canonize that Laguna and Raine were Squall's parents, they would have done so in something that more than just Japanese readers would be able to see.

Also, I have scans of the date page somewhere, I think, as well as the 'impressive scenes' pages. Tres has the whole book, though. We should get on his ass to scan the thing, for great justice.

 

[Dashell]

In short, for FFVI, optional shit and variable shit is assumed to have a singular answer.

aannnndd... it's not like that in FFVII?...

sorry I guess I don't quite follow, I was previously told all deviations are covered. If that's not true, that changes everything. I'd like to know what other deviations aren't covered as well.

EDIT
how is the stuff in chapter 5 in FFX-2 handled? That's kind of the same situation you pointed out.

EDIT II

Heck not even X-2, what about finding Lucrecia? Is that listed as matter of fact?

 

[Vendel]

I'm not sure why people are having trouble with the fact that a guidebook would not only have information on the story/narrative/whatever but also of various things you can do in the game.

The bits discussing gameplay mechanics/variable scenes do not override when SE says "this happened in the story".

 

[Dashell]

The bit discussing gameplay mechanics/variable scenes do not override when SE says "this happened in the story".

We're talking about how some scenes aren't mention as having deviations when they DO have deviations in the game. If that makes sense. That really changes everything if that's true.

 

[Ⓐaron]

The nature of FFVI means that over half the game's content is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL.

As soon as you get your fourth party member and the airship on the world of ruin, you are good to go for the end of the game (in that you can go right to the final dungeon)

Third, actually. The only characters who are required to beat the game are Celes, Edgar, and Setzer - I've done it this way. It's possible to recruit Sabin before you recruit Edgar or Setzer, however.

 

[Vendel]

We're talking about how some scenes aren't mention as having deviations when they DO have deviations in the game. If that makes sense. That really changes everything if that's true.

No, it really doesn't Q.

 

[Dashell]

Why doesn't it? Wasn't the counter argument always "All other deviations are listed as well..."? If all other deviations aren't listed, that argument doesn't work.

 

[Vendel]

Why doesn't it? Wasn't the counter argument always "All other deviations are listed as well..."? If all other deviations aren't listed, that argument doesn't work.

That sounds suspiciously like a straw-man.

 

[Dashell]

Okay maybe it wasn't ALWAYS the counter argument but I know it came up before I remember being told, or at least being under the impression that all deviations were listed in the game.

Why are some but not others?


EDIT
BTW I'm only saying this changes things for the FTOIL page, Cloti is obviously still canon. That will never change.

 

[Ryushikaze]

aannnndd... it's not like that in FFVII?...

No, it is. But I bring up FFVI for a reason.
I bring it up because there's no fucking way for the U20 to COVER all of its optional shit, and so some variations get left by the wayside. The same, though to a lesser extent, is also true of FFVII. Instead, it's the notable variations that get mentioned- Shadow's death, Yuffie and Vincent's recruitments if Tifa or Cid are the leader, the date sequences, whether you chose Red or Barret to hold the Black Materia, all of these- granted, to the best of my knowledge- are highlighted. Not so much the choices Cloud makes in Wall Market, though the results of his choices are detailed. Not all of these get mentioned in the U20- space IS at something of a premium, since each game doesn't get more than 30 pages (and remember, FF VI, VII, VIII and FF10 all filled up at least one of their own several hundred page sourcebooks)

sorry I guess I don't quite follow, I was previously told all deviations are covered. If that's not true, that changes everything. I'd like to know what other deviations aren't covered as well.

It depends on the guidebook and how notable the deviation is. I mean, technically, there are plenty of utterly minor deviations that get glossed over- irrelevant yes/no answers and the like, but I'm pretty sure even the choice whether to bust in or sneak in to ShinRa inc got detailed in the UO.

EDIT
how is the stuff in chapter 5 in FFX-2 handled? That's kind of the same situation you pointed out.

10-2 is not in the U20. Not in any detail, anyways. Likewise, CC, DoC, etc. are largely glossed over.

EDIT II

Heck not even X-2, what about finding Lucrecia? Is that listed as matter of fact?

That's a different circumstance, as that's a matter of yes/no rather then either/or, but I think I recall it being prefaced with an conditional (If you go the cave blah blah) in the UO.

Third, actually. The only characters who are required to beat the game are Celes, Edgar, and Setzer - I've done it this way. It's possible to recruit Sabin before you recruit Edgar or Setzer, however.

You're right, I'd just gotten so used to doing it like that I thought it was mandatory.


In any case, this discussion of 'do they mention every single deviation' is both hyperbolic and missing the point.

We are told that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other that night.
That's in Tifa's CCU profile. That's a statement of fact.

Now, as the high version is the version where feelings are confirmed- being as there's nada in the low version- then the high version happened.

Please note that I arrived at the high version being canon independently of the FTOIL page.

The FTOIL page merely confirms unequivocably that the feelings for each other were romantic ones.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Of course, it goes without saying I await with an admitted grim amusement to see what he's going to get up to with the various materials. I suspect it will be less than honest in intent and in execution.

Wait, Im supposed to do something?

 

[Dashell]

Wait, Im supposed to do something?

Well we were expecting something LTD related since this is the LTD thread

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Well the question itself was ltd related.....should there be more? 0.o Btw, what happened to your ltd forum?

 

[Dashell]

Well the question itself was ltd related.....should there be more? 0.o

oh well the Ultimanias sever many purposes so I think we weren't quite sure what the question was about

Btw, what happened to your ltd forum?

It died... did you want it for something?

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

oh well the Ultimanias sever many purposes so I think we weren't quite sure what the question was about

Just curious on how many sources there is for the ltd. Can't really think of anything sinister up my sleeves right now. Should I just follow this up with an evil cackle or the more common villainous laughter?

It died... did you want it for something?

Is it still open? Can I have the link if you don't mind?

 

[Dashell]

BTW sorry Ryu I never responded to you.

No, it is. But I bring up FFVI for a reason.
I bring it up because there's no fucking way for the U20 to COVER all of its optional shit, and so some variations get left by the wayside. The same, though to a lesser extent, is also true of FFVII. Instead, it's the notable variations that get mentioned- Shadow's death, Yuffie and Vincent's recruitments if Tifa or Cid are the leader, the date sequences, whether you chose Red or Barret to hold the Black Materia, all of these- granted, to the best of my knowledge- are highlighted. Not so much the choices Cloud makes in Wall Market, though the results of his choices are detailed. Not all of these get mentioned in the U20- space IS at something of a premium, since each game doesn't get more than 30 pages (and remember, FF VI, VII, VIII and FF10 all filled up at least one of their own several hundred page sourcebooks)

Okay so... how do we decide what's an important variation and what isn't? I think two characters admitting they love each other is pretty important.

In any case, this discussion of 'do they mention every single deviation' is both hyperbolic and missing the point.

No it's not. Cloud and Tifa are in a similar situation to Locke and Celes. Although again I'd like to hear Tres explain all this since I don't have the book, it seems pretty important to me that Cloud and Tifa got a deviation and Locke and Celes did not simply because "the game is too big" or whatever.

 

[Vendel]

No it's not. Cloud and Tifa are in a similar situation to Locke and Celes. Although again I'd like to hear Tres explain all this since I don't have the book, it seems pretty important to me that Cloud and Tifa got a deviation and Locke and Celes did not simply because "the game is too big" or whatever.

I'm still not sure why you think this is important Q. Seems to me it's much ado about nothing.

Setting that aside. Would the answer either way change what the FTOIL page is saying? Would it change the fact that SE has said plenty of times "Cloud and Tifa feelings" etc etc? And that simply listing gameplay mechanics/deviations doesn't override that fact?

People need to stop placing undo importance on anything they think can be LTD related. SE doesn't have some grand design on they way the disseminate their information. If there is a difference just chalk it up to coincidence.