The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

but is that what a page about romance is talking about

In both versions of the "moment" Tifa and Cloud have in the screenshot included on the FTOIL page could either be interpreted as romantic or platonic depending on which version of the Highwind sequence is obtained. That is why page 232 is so crucial in explaining that two versions exist.

Nowhere did SE say that one version is more valid than the other. All they did was show Cloud and Tifa on a romantic couples page. Obviously they are an optional romantic couple, but they are not the only romantic couple in Final Fantasy VII (as evidenced by the picture of Cloud x Aerith).

 

[Lex]

I'm sorry BlankBeat, but this has been done to death not only in this thread but in the comments for Ryu's article. I'm going to say this again but it's not constructive anymore because it's just a rehash of old points.

The FTOIL page is not the only canonical evidence for Cloti. Case of Tifa is also loaded with statements far more convincing on their own than what you're trying to do with the FTOIL page.

For the fourth time.

1. Article says feelings matched without using words.
2. Only version "without using words" is HA version. In no way can it mean LA version.
3. High Affection scene is canon.
4. Cloti. Romantic Cloti. Is canon.

1-3 are solid facts. 4 is a result of 1-3.

I'm going to level with you - the first few times I finished the game I also believed that Clerith was the pairing of great justice. The more I played, the more I understood, the more ambiguous it became. It took me a while to realise the difference between broken Cloud and fixed Cloud, and then playing through CC was like a lightbulb in my head.

Almost 10 years later, the Compilation happened. There is no doubt in my mind that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. They have a future together, they have a family together, they have a life long history. Aerith was an amazing character who formed a strange bond with Cloud over the short period of time she was alive. Then she died and that's all very sad, but it happened.

Again, 1-3 are fact. What I am about to say now is my opinion:

BEGIN OPINION:

Aerith loved Zack and vice versa. Aerith was romantically interested in Cloud due to his appearing and acting like Zack. She was mesmerised and mystified by the similarities. Cloud may have had romantic feelings for her due to his having Zack's memories/predisposition for her in the first place. This develops. They go on a date in Gold Saucer. "I want to meet the real you". (Because she knows he's not who he thinks he is before anyone else (aside from maybe Tifa) does).

Then he gets his memories back. Aerith is now dead. He is sad that he hasn't been able to share his true self with her. He may still romantically feel for her. But the real Cloud, the put back together Cloud, has always loved Tifa.

END OPINION.

They share a romantic night under the Highwind together. They visit Aerith's grave. They get a bar and live together. They raise Marlene and Denzel. Then at some point they finish the bloody compilation and put an end to this silly discussion .

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Still putting all the emphasis on the FTOIL page and not concerning yourself with anything else, eh Blank? Believing/interpreting/other things that end with "ing" that you can disprove it? Well, I'll bite because I'm bored and this thread amuses me, but really you should look at the bigger picture. The Lifestream Event isn't player controlled, and all it lacks is the confirmation of romantic feelings. Said feelings are unequivocally there. The fact that Cloud and Tifa live together, have kids to raise together, and are stated to belong/have a future together? None of that is player controlled. It happened. The end.

And the HW scene is more or less the same as the above. Unlike those, it had two different versions and which one you saw was dependent on player choices. So it could in fact be controlled, either by conscious decision of the player or simply by their preferences without making the decision to get one or the other. The HA version is still what happened. Its been confirmed. Deny it all you like, but is fact that Cloud and Tifa had their confirmation of romantic feelings.

Now, on to some of your recent comments...

1. I'm trying to point out that the FTOIL page does not unequivocally show that Cloti has been deemed canon. If anything, it continues along with SE continually providing ambiguous, vague, and often contradictory bits of information. (A. Cloud is pictured with two women in two variable scenes. He's the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women. It appears to me that SE is continuing on with the theme of a love triangle by showing Cloud pictured with two women in two variable scenes.

What is this "theme" you keep talking about? FFVII and the compilation are not built on the "theme" of a love triangle. Cloud's love-life is not the major building point for the entire game, let alone the expansions of that game.

Further, you keep pointing out Cloud is pictured with two women on the FTOIL page. You still ignore that the text never mentions Aerith in any capacity. She is pictured to show that yes, the date exists, and yes it is related to the premise of the FTOIL page. The words on the page talk about Tifa and Cloud and not a damn thing else (in the FFVII section, of course).

B. The caption never says which moment of the Highwind scene it is referring to. I believe the caption is referring to the moment that is pictured, not the moment where Tifa says words aren't the only way Cloud can express how he's "THINKING" (she never said the word "feeling").

The caption is referring to the entire scene. Not just part of it. That is, it refers to the "words aren't the only way," it refers to Tifa sleeping with her head on Cloud's shoulder, it refers to the unseen events during the fade to black. All of it. Its a whole. If you just look at a single tree, you'll miss the forest.

C. Where does the FTOIL page say anything other than Tifa and Cloud have the possibility of becoming a romantic couple (which depends on player controlled affection points that determines which version of the Highwind scene is obtained)? It never says, "in the HA version Tifa and Cloud's romantic feelings match" -- it only says that their feelings match.

And thanks to the Lifestream Event, we know exactly what those feelings are. Tifa has romantic feelings for Cloud and vice versa. Those feelings match.

What type of feelings are never explicitly stated.

Its the For the One I Love page. Yes they bloody well are.

Maybe the feelings are of not feeling alone heading into the final battle, which are conveniently expressed in both versions of the Highwind scene?)

Oh I'm sure that comes into it. They were, after all, unsure if anyone but they themselves would be there to fight Sephiroth the next day. I'm dead certain that at least a bit of the feeling they each felt was of "at least I don't have to do this alone." But, again that's a fragment of the whole. And not the biggest piece, either.

2. It annoys me because instead of saying it is only one interpretation that the FTOIL page is saying that Cloti is canon, this site proclaims (rather arrogantly) that this is the only conclusion one could possibly draw when looking at the FTOIL page.

I find it arrogant that you'd come here and repeatedly tell everyone that the conclusions they reached from the FTOIL page (and EVERYTHING ELSE we try to point out) are naught but interpretation and opinion. Fair's fair I guess.

Since this is a neutral site, I do not think it is responsible or appropriate to spread what is an interpretation as cold hard fact. Given how many Final Fantasy fans frequent this site, there is an added responsibility to make sure what is reported here is actually fact and not someone's interpretation.

This is a neutral site, and I thank you for acknowledging that. A great many folk, who shall remain nameless, have accused the entirety of TLS of being a mean ol' den of rabid Cloti conspirators. Again, sincerely, thank you. You get a good boost in respect from me for that.

But, let me point out that as a neutral site that article wasn't published as an interpretative essay. It was news. News (albeit presented in a rather humorous form) of a fact that was one more nail in the LTD's coffin. The FTOIL page didn't kill the LTD. It was buried in facts that support Cloud and Tifa being an official couple. And none of those facts are interpretations. They are exactly what it says on whatever page they were written on (or scene in the game, or quote in an interview, or so on).

3. My overall point is that the love triangle debate has always been about exactly that, a love triangle.

I've seen statements like this before, and I have to ask... why does this need to be pointed out? Its in the title of the thread. The LT in LTD stands for Love Triangle. That doesn't mean the triangle still has all its points.

Obviously SE is going to provide evidence that supports both pairings since a love triangle is firmly established in Final Fantasy VII's story.

Almost true, just the tense is wrong. A love triangle was firmly established in the early parts of FFVII's story.

[/quote]And I think it's obvious that Cloud has special and unique feelings for both Tifa and Aerith that are different than the feelings he has for all other characters.[/quote]

Entirely true. Everyone has unique and special feelings about Aerith. Hell, some characters will drop right to their knees and start bawling when she dies. This doesn't say anything about Cloud's special feelings being love. Substantiate your "belief" that it is, if you can.

Why is it so radical to think that SE hasn't canonized Cloud's romantic feelings, and has left it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically?

Its radical to think that because they HAVE canonized Cloud and Tifa as the official couple.

Obviously Cloud loves both women,

Not so obvious. Believable, yes. Not so obvious that he actually did/does.

but who he loves romantically has never been officially declared by SE.

Yes it has. Its been pointed out an explained a lot.

Yet, this site says that SE has officially declared the love triangle in favor of C/T. That's what I have a problem with -- spreading interpretation and opinion as fact.

This site reported facts from an official SE source, an Ultimania. That information, along with lots of other bits and pieces forming the whole of the evidence, officially declare the love triangle to be over with Cloud and Tifa together.

TL;DR, facts became apparent and you came to fight them with interpretations and opinions. Same ol' song and dance.

 

[Strangelove]

In both versions of the "moment" Tifa and Cloud have in the screenshot included on the FTOIL page could either be interpreted as romantic or platonic depending on which version of the Highwind sequence is obtained. That is why page 232 is so crucial in explaining that two versions exist.

every box has a page number. are we to have to do this paper chase through pages to explain each and every one?

page 232 also shows a story summary. nothing there says 'look at this side box on page 232'. it just says go to that page, and there you find the story summary for that part of the game, just like i assume you would if you looked at any of the others' pages they point you to (i don't have this book and no one cares enough to scan the other pages so i don't know).

but it's a page about romance, at the risk of beating that into the ground. i think one of those interpretations is more likely in this case.

i don't think guidebooks like this require the kind of analytical reading people tend to give them when this subject comes up.

 

[BlankBeat]

I don't really have time to respond to each of you right now (my apologies) -- but here are some thoughts based on the responses I've been given.

Disclaimer: just for the sake of argument, I'll accept that the FTOIL page is talking about Tifa's line, “Cloud, words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking," and NOT the non-verbal "moment" of intimacy that is shared between Cloud and Tifa in both the LA and HA Highwind scene, where the two are seen nuzzling up to one another, and express "without words," that they do not feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other either platonically or romantically depending on Tifa's affection level (this "moment" I'm referring to is also the screenshot portrayed on the FTOIL page).

Not every variable scene has to be canonized. The point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize couples or variable scenes, but to simply list both the optional and non-optional romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series.

If the point of the page was to canonize variable romantic scenes, SE would have canonized the date scene, which is also included on the FTOIL page. Why canonize the Highwind scene and not the date scene if the purpose of the FTOIL page is to canonize romantic scenes?

Furthermore, if the page is to canonize Cloti specifically, why is Cloud pictured with Aerith? Why not show the C/T date scene? Or no date scene at all?

Furthermore, the FTOIL page is hardly breaking new ground. It is obvious that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Tifa in the high affection Highwind scene. Cloud and Tifa have always been an optional romantic couple, and the FTOIL page confirms what we already knew -- that Cloud and Tifa are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points.

The only new ground that the FTOIL page breaks is that it confirms that Cloud and Tifa's feelings "match" in the HA version. Big whoop. It did not canonize that version of the Highwind scene into the compilation. That was not the purpose of the FTOIL page.

The bottom line is this: the point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize variable scenes or optional couples into the compilation (why would they canonize the Highwind scene but not the date scene? why would they show Cloud with Aerith if it was meant to canonize Cloti as a couple?)

It seems obvious that the point of the page was to simply list romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series -- even optional couples.

Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, a romantic couple. But they are an optional romantic couple, which makes them different from the other couples on the FTOIL page.

In addition, there is also mutual non-verbal feelings expressed in the LA version, which is why I believe the story and character summaries talking about the Highwind scene could be referring to either version of the Highwind sequence.

The FTOIL page did not canonize the HA version, it simply says that if the HA version is obtained, Tifa and Cloud can become a romantic couple based on mutual feelings. And it seems perfectly reasonable to include an optional couple on a page discussing romantic couples (even if the couple is, in fact, optional). Hint: Page 232 clarifies C/T's optionality, which then leaves it up to us to decide if they are, in fact, a romantic couple. All the FTOIL page proclaims is that they can be a romantic couple, not that they are or have to be a romantic couple.

I think Cloti's are misinterpreting and misrepresenting the purpose of the FTOIL page. The purpose of the page is not to canonize couples or events, but to simply show romantic Final Fantasy couples regardless of optionality.

Final Fantasy VII is unique in that the hero has two confirmed love interests. That is why I believe Cloud was shown with both of his love interests in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page. And that is why I believe love has the possibility to exist between either pairing depending on how you play the game and interpret the compilation.

 

[Dashell]

In both versions of the "moment" Tifa and Cloud have in the screenshot included on the FTOIL page could either be interpreted as romantic or platonic depending on which version of the Highwind sequence is obtained. That is why page 232 is so crucial in explaining that two versions exist.

The page is about romantic love. It's talking about the high affection version, period. Say it's not canon all you want, I really don't care, but please don't try and say "Hey this page with all entires about romantic love except what's split off in that box.. yeah it's ALL about romantic love except that one scene even though it's not in the box..."

that's just silly, stop that.

EDIT
and just to point out
Nomura didn't say "her consciousness lives on inside of him" at all, that's a mistranslation he said, "He sees her because consciousness lives on inside the living" , so you might want to stop using that.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Blankbeat, I want to properly respond to you but because of a natural calamity the internet doesn't allow me to so I'm just going to give the gist of it. Note the underlines and the responses to them.

1. I'm trying to point out that the FTOIL page does not unequivocally show that Cloti has been deemed canon. If anything, it continues along with SE continually providing ambiguous, vague, and often contradictory bits of information. (A. Cloud is pictured with two women in two variable scenes. He's the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women. It appears to me that SE is continuing on with the theme of a love triangle by showing Cloud pictured with two women in two variable scenes. B. The caption never says which moment of the Highwind scene it is referring to. I believe the caption is referring to the moment that is pictured, not the moment where Tifa says words aren't the only way Cloud can express how he's "THINKING" (she never said the word "feeling"). C. Where does the FTOIL page say anything other than Tifa and Cloud have the possibility of becoming a romantic couple (which depends on player controlled affection points that determines which version of the Highwind scene is obtained)? It never says, "in the HA version Tifa and Cloud's romantic feelings match" -- it only says that their feelings match. What type of feelings are never explicitly stated. Maybe the feelings are of not feeling alone heading into the final battle, which are conveniently expressed in both versions of the Highwind scene?)

1. Again, Blankbeat, if it's your opinion, I cannot really disagree with it.
2. You believe means it's also an opinion. I assert you that whatever the version is, even without a picture, what matters is that Cloud and Tifa exchanged mutual romantic feelings despite the two versions. Nonetheless they shared feelings, there is no condition on the page unlike the date.
3. The HA version is explicitly featured in the page listing examples of romantic love.
4. Give me a single quote from SE saying that "feelings of not being alone" is what Cloud or Tifa felt even at least one time during the duration of the game. Again again, please provide the quote saying that feelings are exchanged in the low affection version as well.

2. It annoys me because instead of saying it is only one interpretation that the FTOIL page is saying that Cloti is canon, this site proclaims (rather arrogantly) that this is the only conclusion one could possibly draw when looking at the FTOIL page. Since this is a neutral site, I do not think it is responsible or appropriate to spread what is an interpretation as cold hard fact. Given how many Final Fantasy fans frequent this site, there is an added responsibility to make sure what is reported here is actually fact and not someone's interpretation.

1. Why do you call an analysis an interpretation? And please, people convinced by the TLS article are not being brainwashed or deceived because *drum roll* people can think. *OMGosh plot twist!* People can think! I agreed to the article because its factual not because I'm a Cloti and many others as well. If the article is not convincing from the start, it wouldn't have as many supporters as it has now.
2. Please, just please kindly point out which part of the article is arrogant. I know a lot of Clotis, including me, proudly give out the link of this site's article as reference but is that really arrogance of the site itself? But aren't you guys doing the same with the Clerith forums articles? I don't think that's arrogant at all. It's called "I'm too lazy to type an argument so I'll just give the link " (This goes for both parties.)
3. Oh gee thanks for calling us neutral. Lately we've been slandered as a biased, elitist, Cloti site.
4. That's why there's this debate thread.

3. My overall point is that the love triangle debate has always been about exactly that, a love triangle. Obviously SE is going to provide evidence that supports both pairings since a love triangle is firmly established in Final Fantasy VII's story. And I think it's obvious that Cloud has special and unique feelings for both Tifa and Aerith that are different than the feelings he has for all other characters. Why is it so radical to think that SE hasn't canonized Cloud's romantic feelings, and has left it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically? Obviously Cloud loves both women, but who he loves romantically has never been officially declared by SE. Yet, this site says that SE has officially declared the love triangle in favor of C/T. That's what I have a problem with -- spreading interpretation and opinion as fact.

1. It's not really an issue if there is no clear proof but all the evidences cannot be denied. It's like the canonity of Cloti is being shown to us clearly but you spit it back because you don't want it or because it doesn't agree with your interpretation.
2. Again, Blankbeat if it's your opinion that we're only saying an opinion then what is the truth?

It's really insulting to use the "it's just your opinion" argument, it really is because we're using arguments based on facts and objective analysis. It's not what I want to believe it's about taking the evidence as it is regardless of personal preferences.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I don't really have time to respond to each of you right now (my apologies) -- but here are some thoughts based on the responses I've been given.

That happens, we understand (at least I do). People are still almost certain to reply in greater numbers than you can keep up with, but most of us are saying variations on the same thing anyway.

Disclaimer: just for the sake of argument, I'll accept that the FTOIL page is talking about Tifa's line, “Cloud, words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking,"[/quote]

Its talking about all of it. Tifa telling Cloud he can show her what he feels without words, the fade to black and all it implies, them waking up snuggling, all of it.

and NOT the non-verbal "moment" of intimacy that is shared between Cloud and Tifa in both the LA and HA Highwind scene, where the two are seen nuzzling up to one another, and express "without words," that they do not feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other either platonically or romantically depending on Tifa's affection level (this "moment" I'm referring to is also the screenshot portrayed on the FTOIL page).

You went on at length, for something you are (for the sake of argument) accepting that the page isn't talking about

Not every variable scene has to be canonized. The point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize couples or variable scenes, but to simply list both the optional and non-optional romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series.

What optional romances? Aside from Cloud/Tifa, at least in your opinion, what other couple on that page is optional? I notice Locke and Celes aren't optional. They are an official pairing, despite the fact that if the player doesn't know where to go/doesn't want to, the game can end with Celes never having seen him again post World of Ruin. Every scene involving them after the Floating Continent and Kefka's rise to power is 100% optional. Yet there they are, canonized as having both survived and gotten together. Kinda like Cloud and Tifa, only even more so in a way.

If the point of the page was to canonize variable romantic scenes, SE would have canonized the date scene,

Please don't put words in SE's collective mouth. Gods know they seem like they could use the help sometimes, but no. You cannot say what they would do if they wanted to do something. Especially since we've seen what they did do to accomplish just that.

And no, the date scene is a whole different kettle of fish from the HW scene. It doesn't need to have an official version.

which is also included on the FTOIL page.

It is mentioned, yes. Not with any real sense of importance, but it is there.

Why canonize the Highwind scene and not the date scene if the purpose of the FTOIL page is to canonize romantic scenes?

Because one is more important than the other? Cloud doesn't get what the date person is trying to tell him. Not if its Tifa, not if its Aerith (Yuffie and Barret are a bit different but even then its all confusion on his part). Nothing is resolved there.

The HW scene is a resolution to a longstanding problem. A problem that has been in place to one degree or another since Cloud and Tifa were little kids. They were both too shy to say anything about their mutual attraction/crush/love. Under the Highwind... they still are! But as Tifa pointed out, words aren't the only way.

Furthermore,

Back up a bit here, you're doing a furthermore when your previous point is sort of... not pointy. Its a bit round, really.

if the page is to canonize Cloti specifically, why is Cloud pictured with Aerith? Why not show the C/T date scene? Or no date scene at all?

I rather wish they had, just so this tired attempt to discredit the FTOIL page wouldn't exist. Personally I think they decided to use a picture with Aerith in it to acknowledge that yes, back when there was a love triangle she was the third corner. But who knows for sure?

And let me now counter your question with one of my own: Why does it matter? It could just as easily have been Barret pictured with the little blurb about the date scene and it would change nothing. The focus of the page, as it pertains to this game, is still 100% Cloud and Tifa.

Furthermore, the FTOIL page is hardly breaking new ground. It is obvious that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Tifa in the high affection Highwind scene.

That tiny edit above is all it would take to get my full agreement But you're right, the FTOIL page isn't even close to new ground. We knew everything it tells us beforehand. Now its just spelled out.

Cloud and Tifa have always been an optional romantic couple, and the FTOIL page confirms what we already knew -- that Cloud and Tifa are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points.

Which scene the player sees is controlled by affection points. Which scene actually happened is controlled by the choices of the creators. They chose High Affection. Which only makes sense, really. In the context of the Lifestream Event which took place before the HW scene, as well as Cloud and Tifa's relationship after said scene... there really wasn't another choice.

The only new ground that the FTOIL page breaks is that it confirms that Cloud and Tifa's feelings "match" in the HA version. Big whoop. It did not canonize that version of the Highwind scene into the compilation. That was not the purpose of the FTOIL page.

Yes it did, and yes it was. The FTOIL page is there to show off the couples of the main series entries of Final Fantasy. That is the stated purpose of the page. Cloud and Tifa's feelings match. Said feelings are romantic. End of.

The bottom line is this: the point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize variable scenes or optional couples into the compilation

Sure it wasn't.

(why would they canonize the Highwind scene but not the date scene?

Because one matters in the context of the page's purpose (Tifa is the One Cloud Loves) while the other (whoever showed up) went right over Cloud's head?

why would they show Cloud with Aerith if it was meant to canonize Cloti as a couple?)

Doesn't matter why they chose her, no mention of her is ever made on the entire page, etc.

It seems obvious that the point of the page was to simply list romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series -- even optional couples.

It seems obvious to you, yes. It sounds to me like you had to do some mental gymnastics to come to this obvious conclusion, but that could just be me. What actually is obvious to anyone willing to see it:

1.) FTOIL page is about romantic love between FF characters
2.) Cloud and Tifa and the moment they confessed to each other are on that page
3.) Aerith does not even rate a name drop on said page

Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, a romantic couple.

Yep!

But they are an optional romantic couple,

Nope!

which makes them different from the other couples on the FTOIL page.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong... no wait, they're all pretty much the same. Sorry.

In addition, there is also mutual non-verbal feelings expressed in the LA version,

So you keep claiming. Substantiate this for us, would ya? Cause said scene is directly stated to be short and apathetic. Plus, I've seen it. So yeah, nothing of any import is shared in the LA version. Please don't go making up fanfiction about what happened there as some of your predecessors have.

which is why I believe the story and character summaries talking about the Highwind scene could be referring to either version of the Highwind sequence.

Yeah, no. Feelings shared are HA. Its where Tifa points out the less-than-verbal option for expressing feelings. No such thing happened in the LA version.

The FTOIL page did not canonize the HA version, it simply says that if the HA version is obtained, Tifa and Cloud can become a romantic couple based on mutual feelings. And it seems perfectly reasonable to include an optional couple on a page discussing romantic couples (even if the couple is, in fact, optional).

Yeah, so I've seen you say. It hasn't gotten any more true for the repetition.

Hint: Page 232 clarifies C/T's optionality, which then leaves it up to us to decide if they are, in fact, a romantic couple. All the FTOIL page proclaims is that they can be a romantic couple, not that they are or have to be a romantic couple.

No, the creators decided they were a romantic couple. The scene is optional for anyone actually playing the game. It is not in any way, shape, or form optional for the continuing narrative. In the context of the story as a whole, the LA version doesn't even begin to make sense.

I think Cloti's are misinterpreting and misrepresenting the purpose of the FTOIL page.

The purpose of the page is not to canonize couples or events, but to simply show romantic Final Fantasy couples regardless of optionality.

Yeah, how hard was it to spin that? Seriously, you could be a Globetrotter with skills like that. If words were basketballs, anyway.

Final Fantasy VII is unique in that the hero has two confirmed love interests.

FFIV says hi.

That is why I believe

^Now I know someone has talked to you about this sort of thing. Beliefs are all but meaningless in this here thread.

Cloud was shown with both of his love interests in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page. And that is why I believe love has the possibility to exist between either pairing depending on how you play the game

Cloud was shown with Tifa. You are putting far too much importance on the picture that goes with the explanation of the date scene. The explanation which, by comparison with the actual entry about love between protagonists, is entirely trivial. Its entirely about Cloud and Tifa. To turn one of your own favorite phrases back on you... if Aerith is important to the page, why isn't her name mentioned anywhere on it?

and interpret the compilation.

^And we end on a use of the word "interpret." That sums it up right there, folks.

 

[BlankBeat]

EDIT
and just to point out
Nomura didn't say "her consciousness lives on inside of him" at all, that's a mistranslation he said, "He sees her because consciousness lives on inside the living" , so you might want to stop using that.

Thanks for the heads up (no sarcasm intended)


Oh and here's another thing I've been thinking about:

If the HA version is only specifically discussed on a page about romantic couples, how can we then make the leap that the HA version must therefore be applied to every other time SE mentions the Highwind scene?

Every other time SE talks about the Highwind scene they never specify which version they are referring to. The only time SE specifically talks about the HA version is on a page discussing romantic couples. To me, that makes the FTOIL page the anomaly, not the majority.

We can't make the leap that just because the HA version is discussed on a romantic couples page that therefore SE must be talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up in the compilation. If they were truly talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up, they would say so. They wouldn't have us leap to these conclusions that because the HA version is discussed on the FTOIL page that therefore it must be the version that is discussed every other time it is brought up in the compilation.

The bottom line is this: the FTOIL page is talking about romance. The HA version is romantic. So therefore the HA version is included on the FTOIL page. But when SE talks about the story in general, they never specify which version they are talking about because the romance between Tifa and Cloud is optional.

The FTOIL page doesn't mean that the HA version is canon in the story, or that the HA version is what SE is referring to every other time they bring it up. All it means is that on a romantic couples page SE decided for the first time to talk specifically about the HA version to show that if you achieve the HA version it leads to an (optional) romance between Cloud and Tifa.

Why would we automatically apply what SE states on a romantic couples page to what is said when SE discusses the story in general terms?

To me, what SE says about the Highwind scene when they are speaking generally about the story is more canon than what they say about the Highwind scene on a romantic couples page.

I'll end with what I've already said because it follows along with what I just said:

The point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize variable scenes or optional couples into the compilation (why would they canonize the Highwind scene but not the date scene? why would they show Cloud with Aerith if it was meant to canonize Cloti as a couple?)

It seems obvious that the point of the page was to simply list romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series -- even optional couples.

The FTOIL page did not canonize the HA version, it simply says that if the HA version is obtained, Tifa and Cloud can become a romantic couple based on mutual feelings. And it seems perfectly reasonable to include an optional couple on a page discussing romantic couples (even if the couple is, in fact, optional). Hint: Page 232 clarifies C/T's optionality, which leaves it up to us to decide if they are, in fact, a romantic couple. All the FTOIL page proclaims is that they can be a romantic couple, not that they are or have to be a romantic couple.

I think Cloti's are misinterpreting and misrepresenting the purpose of the FTOIL page. The purpose of the page is not to canonize couples or events, but to simply show romantic Final Fantasy couples regardless of optionality.

Final Fantasy VII is unique in that the hero has two confirmed love interests. That is why I believe Cloud was shown with both of his love interests in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page. And that is why I believe love has the possibility to exist between either pairing depending on how you play the game and interpret the compilation.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If the HA version is only specifically discussed on a page about romantic couples,

It is discussed pretty much every time the HW scene comes up, actually.

how can we then make the leap that the HA version must therefore be applied to every other time SE mentions the Highwind scene?

We didn't make any such leap. People checked the other mentions.

Every other time SE talks about the Highwind scene they never specify which version they are referring to.

They don't have to. While I don't read Japanese, a great many people who do have looked into it. And asked people who don't even care about FFVII. I cba to find the posts in this very thread that explained, but they're back there somewhere.

The only time SE specifically talks about the HA version is on a page discussing romantic couples. To me, that makes the FTOIL page the anomaly, not the majority.

To you, sure. Except you haven't looked into this the way others here at TLS have. You are lacking the context they have. Its not an anomaly. Its entirely the norm.

We can't make the leap that just because the HA version is discussed on a romantic couples page that therefore SE must be talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up in the compilation.

No such blind leap was made. The distance required to leap was measured several times before anyone actually moved to jump. It turned out one could step across easily. To push this analogy to its breaking point, you are making a canyon out of a crack in the sidewalk.

If they were truly talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up, they would say so.

So SE has to tell people exactly what they're talking about before anyone can know what they're talking about then? We need more words to tell us what the words mean? But then, what if we don't get the second series of words? How will they explain that to us?! All communication is impossible!! ITS MADNESS!!!!!

But more seriously, no. SE does not have to say "and we're discussing the HA version here" for a reader to know which version is being discussed.

They wouldn't have us leap to these conclusions that because the HA version is discussed on the FTOIL page that therefore it must be the version that is discussed every other time it is brought up in the compilation.

I get the feeling I'm gonna be fond of this smiley in the near future...

The bottom line is this: the FTOIL page is talking about romance. The HA version is romantic. So therefore the HA version is included on the FTOIL page.

So far so good, this paragraph.

But when SE talks about the story in general, they never specify which version they are talking about because the romance between Tifa and Cloud is optional.

No, they don't specify because they don't bloody need to do so.

The FTOIL page doesn't mean that the HA version is canon in the story, or that the HA version is what SE is referring to every other time they bring it up. All it means is that on a romantic couples page SE decided for the first time to talk specifically about the HA version to show that if you achieve the HA version it leads to an (optional) romance between Cloud and Tifa.

The FTOIL page is part of what makes the HA version canon, and the thing that most clearly spells it out. Your lack of acceptance changes this not at all. See above for discussion of the other mentions of the HW scene, and how the vast majority of them are clearly discussing them in a romantic light.

Why would we automatically apply what SE states on a romantic couples page to what is said when SE discusses the story in general terms?

No one here did that, why do you automatically assume no one thought of this already?

To me,

^This is a sure sign that nothing in the following paragraph will have any merit to this debate.

what SE says about the Highwind scene when they are speaking generally about the story is more canon than what they say about the Highwind scene on a romantic couples page.

Called it. A couple points, for your consideration:

A.) New information trumps old information, thus even if other mentions of the HW scene were vague about the version, it wouldn't make them "moar canonz" than the FTOIL page
B.) The other mentions you speak of have been checked on, and the vast majority were found to be romantic, that is to say the HA version
C.) You're still focusing far too much on the FTOIL page, which is not now nor was it ever the only thing showing Cloti as the legitimate, official pairing

And what they say when they are speaking generally about the story is that mutual feelings are expressed.

Which only happens in one version, ergo you can tell which one they are "generally" speaking of.

There is no mention of which version they are referring to and mutual feelings are expressed in both versions.

Because there is no need to spell it out. If feelings are only mutually expressed without words in one version, and they tell us feelings were mutually expressed without words... then that is the version that happened.

I'll end with what I've already said because it follows along with what I just said:

This was literally only a few posts above your most recent one. You haven't even responded to the replies you got the first time you made a post with that in it. Thus, I am confused as to why you felt the need to say it again so soon.

 

[BlankBeat]

Before I go to bed, here's a quick response: new information only trumps old information if the context is the same.

How does what SE says on a romantic couples page trump what they've said in story summaries?

The new information (FTOIL page) is an apple, and the old information (story summaries) is an orange. Therefore, the new information can't trump the old information because they're not the same thing. But please let me know if you find a recent story or character summary that specifically mentions the HA Highwind scene.

Interestingly, only once is it said that mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa have to be expressed "without words". Do you know when that was? On the FTOIL page.

In all the character and story summaries it simply states that feelings are expressed, or that mutual feelings are expressed. Never it is specified in the story or character summaries that the feelings had to be expressed "without words".

Well...during the LA version, mutual feelings are expressed with words and without words. Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version.

We can't make the leap that just because the HA version is discussed on a romantic couples page that therefore SE must be talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up in the compilation. And the point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize couples or variable scenes, but to simply list both the optional and non-optional romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series.

Find a recent story summary that refers directly to the HA Highwind scene. Because otherwise, all you have is a romantic couples page that is obviously going to talk about the HA version (but has no relevance on character or story summaries).

All the FTOIL page shows is that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene is achieved. And because they are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene occurs, that is exactly why the story and character summaries never specify which Highwind scene they are referring to.

Additionally, in all of the character and story summaries it says that mutual feelings were expressed, but that these feelings can either be verbal or non-verbal. It never says the feelings have to be "without words" (only on the FTOIL page does it specify that it has to be "without words"). Therefore, the character and story summaries could be referring to either the LA or HA Highwind scene.

A page talking about romantic love doesn't trump character and story summaries, even if it is "new" information. Again, find a character or story summary that specifics between the two Highwind scenes. Otherwise, apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

 

[Vendel]

The FTOIL page did not canonize the HA version, it simply says that if the HA version is obtained, Tifa and Cloud can become a romantic couple based on mutual feelings.

It doesn't say that anywhere on that page. It doesn't even say that on the magical page 232 that you seem to think invalidates the very page it is referenced on.


In case everyone (blank) forgot, here is what the FTOIL page actually says.


-Header

For the one I love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.


-The FFVII entries.

Secret date

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.



You know what I don't see? Any mention of Aerith. Nor do I see anything along the lines of an "if" in the C/T entry.

So where exactly are you pulling all this extra meaning from blank? This page is rather short and direct.

How does what SE says on a romantic couples page trump what they've said in story summaries?

You know what they haven't said in the story summaries? Anything that contradicts the FTOIL page. So your argument is moot.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Before I go to bed, here's a quick response: new information only trumps old information if the context is the same.

No, new information can in fact be in a ridiculously different context and still trump what was given before. Its called a retcon. That isn't what happened here, but it is possible, even in a guidebook or interview.

How does what SE says on a romantic couples page trump what they've said in story summaries?

It doesn't. If you'll notice, I said even if the previous mentions of the Highwind scene didn't refer to the HA version, the new information would trump it. But, since they do in fact refer to the Highwind scene in a romantic context, no trumping is required. Which is good, the Donald is the last thing we need in here.

The new information (FTOIL page) is an apple, and the old information (story summaries) is an orange.

Yeah no, they're both apples.

Therefore, the new information can't trump the old information because they're not the same thing.

Fixed that for ya.

But please let me know if you find a recent story or character summary that specifically mentions the HA Highwind scene.

Damn near every mention of the Highwind scene. There ya go.

Interestingly, only once is it said that mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa have to be expressed "without words". Do you know when that was? On the FTOIL page.

Its been said quite a few times.

In all the character and story summaries it simply states that feelings are expressed, or that mutual feelings are expressed.

Which clearly rules out the LA version.

Never it is specified in the story or character summaries that the feelings had to be expressed "without words".

In the version where feelings are expressed, its done without words. And its been pointed out to you just how often SE likes to reference the "without words" line. Its important, whether you accept it as such or not.

Well...during the LA version, mutual feelings are expressed with words and without words.

Nothing of note is expressed in the LA. Unless you count "..." as an expression of feelings.

Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version.

Not really.

We can't make the leap that just because the HA version is discussed on a romantic couples page that therefore SE must be talking about the HA version every other time they've brought it up in the compilation.

And here you are talking about leaps again. No such leap was made, as I mentioned earlier.

And the point of the FTOIL page was not to canonize couples or variable scenes, but to simply list both the optional and non-optional romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series.

Please stop trying to tell us what the point of the FTOIL page was as if you know better than anyone else. Its not working. The point of the FTOIL page was to display the romantic couples of Final Fantasy, yes. There are no optional options there

Find a recent story summary that refers directly to the HA Highwind scene.

See above.

Because otherwise, all you have is a romantic couples page that is obviously going to talk about the HA version (but has no relevance on character or story summaries).

It is entirely relevant. Because it is the HA version used in said character and story summaries. Also, my apologies but I am laughing at "all you have is a romantic couples page. I mean really? For one thing, that isn't even close to all we have, as I keep mentioning. For another... even if that was all we had, its quite enough.

All the FTOIL page shows is that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene is achieved.

Or, it just shows they are a romantic couple. More specifically, it points out when they expressed their feelings and desires to each other. We knew they had said desires quite a bit earlier, during the Lifestream Sequence.

And because they are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene occurs, that is exactly why the story and character summaries never specify which Highwind scene they are referring to.

Except that they do specify by referring to events that occurred in the HA version, and they are not an optional anything. The version of the scene was optional when I played the game. When you played the game. When anybody played the game (or just looked it up on youtube). The version that happened is not optional.

Additionally, in all of the character and story summaries it says that mutual feelings were expressed, but that these feelings can either be verbal or non-verbal.

Show me where anything was expressed, verbally or otherwise, in the LA version. Don't tell me what you think happened, or what was expressed
according to your interpretation. Actual events from the LA scene or nothing happened.

It never says the feelings have to be "without words" (only on the FTOIL page does it specify that it has to be "without words").

Again, the "without words" line is referenced in a number of other places. Not just on the FTOIL page. And since nothing was expressed in the LA version... well, do the math.

Therefore, the character and story summaries could be referring to either the LA or HA Highwind scene.

Not really, for reasons I've already gone over. A few times, now.

A page talking about romantic love doesn't trump character and story summaries, even if it is "new" information.

New info trumps old info, except in cases like this one where it doesn't have to because its not new information at all. Just made more explicit, though oddly not explicit enough for some.

Again, find a character or story summary that specifics between the two Highwind scenes. Otherwise, apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

You know, its actually quite untrue that you cannot compare apples and oranges. They're really not too difficult to compare to one another. They have different tastes, smells, shapes and textures that can be easily compared and contrasted with one another. Its sorta how we can look at/pick up/smell/taste one and know that they're not the same thing

Oh and yeah, again something like eight out of ten mentions of the Highwind (I definitely remember an eight, anyone wanna remind me if I'm right here?) scene were found to be referring to feelings being shared (with the characters used being romantic in nature as I recall) and thus the events of the HA version.

 

[BlankBeat]

No, new information can in fact be in a ridiculously different context and still trump what was given before.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I do not think information on a page discussing romantic couples trumps what is said in story or character summaries. What is said about the story in general seems more relevant than what is stated on a romantic couples page.

It seems obvious why the FTOIL page would include Cloud and Tifa, even if they are an optional couple. It also seems obvious why a romantic couples page would talk about the HA Highwind scene. But just because SE refers to the HA version on a romantic couples page does not automatically mean they are talking about the HA version every other time they've mentioned it. That's too big of an assumption on our part.

Furthermore, SE explain on page 232 that that two versions of the Highwind scene exist. So yes, Tifa and Cloud can be a romantic couple (which is why they were included on the FTOIL page). But they don't necessarily have to be a romantic couple (which is why page 232 is referenced).

The character and story summaries are unclear which Highwind scene they are referring to, and the compilation is unclear if romance or friendship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Remember, friends can form a family (even if one side has romantic feelings). Plus, zero romantic scenes are shown between C/T, and SE has never explicitly said, "Cloud loves Tifa." All Cloti's have is one interpretation of what the FTOIL page is saying.

I happen to believe that all the FTOIL page is doing is listing possible romantic couples. Nowhere does the page proclaim to be deciding which couples are or aren't official.

Furthermore, the FTOIL page is not a page proclaiming which variable events are the 'right' or 'wrong' ones. It is simply a page discussing possible romantic couples, optional or not. Now you might disagree with my interpretation of what the FTOIL page is saying, but no one can say exactly what the FTOIL page is trying to convey to us. Only SE can do that. I happen to take the page on a more literal level and accept it for what it is -- a page discussing romantic couples. Tifa and Cloud are an optional couple, thus they were included on the FTOIL page (a page that also has a picture of Cloud x Aerith)

Here is all of the other quotes I've been given about the Highwind scene:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud.

(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”

(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 394; “For the One I Love” page)

「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う

“VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”

Only the FTOIL page specifics that the mutual feelings have to be expressed without words. And if you only believe that mutual feelings were expressed without words in the HA version, that's fine. But the character and story summaries never say that feelings have to be expressed without words. Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version.

Now, anyone can see that mutual feelings were expressed verbally in the LA version. Both Cloud and Tifa agree when they go back aboard the Highwind (in both versions) that they do not feel alone heading into the final battle because of their time shared below the Highwind. Obviously feelings were communicated in both versions if they both don't feel alone heading into the final battle based on what transpired below the Highwind. Anyone who simply reads the script of the LA version can see that feelings are being communicated verbally. In addition, a non-verbal moment is also expressed in both versions as well.

Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version. And I believe the story and character summaries have been purposely vague because Coud x Tifa are an optional couple.

What is said on the FTOIL page does not trump what is said in character and story summaries. And the character and story summaries never specify which version they are referring to. I simply disagree with your interpretation of what the FTOIL page is declaring. I don't think we can assume that when SE talks about the HA version on a romantic couples page that they are therefore talking about it every other time it is brought up.

 

[Dashell]

Only the FTOIL page specifics that the mutual feelings have to be expressed without words. And if you only believe that mutual feelings were expressed without words in the HA version, that's fine. But the character and story summaries never say that feelings have to be expressed without words.

Then why are you trying to make an argument that in the LA scene they expressed feelings without words? idgi

EDIT
and just to point out
Nomura didn't say "her consciousness lives on inside of him" at all, that's a mistranslation he said, "He sees her because consciousness lives on inside the living" , so you might want to stop using that.

Thanks for the heads up (no sarcasm intended)

So basically you're arguing that official translations can't be wrong or that they never use libert-
... wait what?

You... didn't argue

I uh... didn't see that coming. I had a response all ready and, yes uhm... well then. Glad to help out...

I think I'm out of this thread guys. Have fun.

 

[Strangelove]

dates and the highwind scene aren't 'optional' because you can't opt out of seeing them. there is no way to avoid them. optional would be the scenes with yuffie in wutai, or the zack flashbacks in nibelheim. there are variations of the scenes, but they aren't optional.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'll agree that you disagree with the truth, sure. Won't stop me from telling you what the truth is as many times as needed.

I do not think

^Here we go again already.

information on a page discussing romantic couples trumps what is said in story or character summaries. What is said about the story in general seems more relevant than what is stated on a romantic couples page.

Same old mistakes. You aren't taking things as a whole. You're splitting the FTOIL page off from the herd, claiming its different from the rest of the information given on the story and thus weaker. It isn't. Its a piece of the whole, a description of part of the story. Your attempts to weaken it are futile.

It seems obvious why the FTOIL page would include Cloud and Tifa,

It does, because they are an official couple and the moment this became true in-universe deserves a place on the page.

even if they are an optional couple.

No.

It also seems obvious why a romantic couples page would talk about the HA Highwind scene.

Because its romantic, yes.

But just because SE refers to the HA version on a romantic couples page does not automatically mean they are talking about the HA version every other time they've mentioned it. That's too big of an assumption on our part.

No such assumption was made. Did you read my previous posts? There were no leaps, assumptions, or anything similar. Quex, hito, and a number of others did the translation equivalent of "measure twice, cut once." Only it was way more than twice.

Furthermore, SE explain on page 232 that that two versions of the Highwind scene exist.

Which is meaningless, in the context of this conversation, as page 232 does nothing to establish that the LA version is on equal footing with the HA.

So yes, Tifa and Cloud can be a romantic couple (which is why they were included on the FTOIL page). But they don't necessarily have to be a romantic couple (which is why page 232 is referenced).

So yes, just keep telling yourself these things. It won't make them any more true, but perhaps it will keep the real truth at bay. Cloud and Aerith could have been a couple, Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple.

The character and story summaries are unclear which Highwind scene they are referring to,

No they're not. See my earlier posts.

and the compilation is unclear if romance or friendship exists between Cloud and Tifa.

No, its not. It doesn't shove the matter in our faces but the romance is definitely there, most obvious in CoT. And to an extent in CoB, where you can clearly see what Barret and Cid think of this whole debate. Tifa wears the pants, in case you forget/missed that one.

Remember, friends can form a family (even if one side has romantic feelings).

Hang on, stop for a moment right here. Even if one side has romantic feelings, your own words, right there. Well the story summaries and profile quotes referring to the HW scene invariably describe Cloud and Tifa's feelings matching. Whether they use "without words" doesn't matter, we know Tifa loves Cloud. If they're feelings match, then Cloud loves Tifa. End of bloody story, if you can honestly argue against that (or dishonestly, for that matter) then something is dreadfully wrong here.

Plus, zero romantic scenes are shown between C/T, and SE has never explicitly said, "Cloud loves Tifa." All Cloti's have is one interpretation of what the FTOIL page is saying.

There are plenty of scenes sprinkled throughout the OG and Comp that are romantic, albeit subtly so in many cases, between Cloud and Tifa. You spend most of your posts railing against one of the least subtle ones from the OG and flat out ignoring all reference to others. There are actually more such scenes than I'd expected, considering that FFVII is not a love story SE will almost certainly never just say "Cloud loves Tifa" because they shouldn't bloody well have to. And no, we aren't talking interpretations here. Nor opinions, nor beliefs. Not "I think" but "I can show clearly." Please, stop making claims that the folks arguing the canon are doing what you always do.

I happen to believe

My above point exactly. No one cares what you believe in this debate. Oh, beliefs can make for terrific conversation and discussion, and we have threads for that very sort of talk. Not this thread. In here, its facts and substantiation or gtfo

that all the FTOIL page is doing is listing possible romantic couples. Nowhere does the page proclaim to be deciding which couples are or aren't official.

Which, as usual when you claim "it never outright told me X!" means it shouldn't have to do so, because its already perfectly clear to anyone who doesn't hate what they see there.

Furthermore, the FTOIL page is not a page proclaiming which variable events are the 'right' or 'wrong' ones. It is simply a page discussing possible romantic couples, optional or not.

Ok, yes it is if not for that reason, in that it DOES show us which HW scene happened. As did nearly every other mention of the HW scene. There are no optional couples on that page. Deal with it.

Now you might disagree with my interpretation of what the FTOIL page is saying,

Oh yes, you're right about that. I also disagree with this continual "interpretation" nonsense. Can you substantiate what you're claiming? The burden of proof is on you here.

but no one can say exactly what the FTOIL page is trying to convey to us.

Odd how you keep trying to tell us what it is trying to convey then. Though to be fair, we do keep turning around and telling you what it actually conveys. As well as, and I know I sound broken record like at this point, look at everything else in support of Cloti, the HAHW scene is not the be all end all.

Only SE can do that.

And you can tell what they meant to convey by... reading what they wrote and comprehending it. S'not too hard, really (well harder for me since I don't speak Japanese). So do stop telling us things like "IF SE meant this then they'd have done that!" and the like. You just admitted you don't know.

I happen to take the page on a more literal level and accept it for what it is

Pull the other one, it has got bells on.

-- a page discussing romantic couples. Tifa and Cloud are an optional couple, thus they were included on the FTOIL page (a page that also has a picture of Cloud x Aerith)

Picture of Cloud and Aerith is meaningless. Aerith is never so much as referred to in any way outside of that picture. It is without meaning, aside from "hey earlier in the game there was a date thing and we're not gonna say who showed up for it because it doesn't matter." Cloud and Tifa are not optional. I'm growing tired of saying the same things over and over every post.

Only the FTOIL page specifics that the mutual feelings have to be expressed without words.

But they almost all say that mutual feelings were expressed. What part of that isn't making sense to you?

And if you only believe that mutual feelings were expressed without words in the HA version, that's fine.

Feelings were only expressed in the HA version period, with or without words.

But the character and story summaries never say that feelings have to be expressed without words. Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version.

Forest for the trees, Blank. You're looking too hard at one thing. You will miss everything else, that way.

Now, anyone can see that mutual feelings were expressed verbally in the LA version.

"......" is so expressive.

Both Cloud and Tifa agree when they go back aboard the Highwind (in both versions) that they do not feel alone heading into the final battle because of their time shared below the Highwind.

That's after the HW scene. Related, since Tifa freaks right out about people watching their non-verbal expression in the HA version, but still not the same scene. They express precisely jack and shit in the LA version, and jack left town.

Obviously feelings were communicated in both versions

Lemme just stop you here again, because what you are trying to say is wrong.

if they both don't feel alone heading into the final battle based on what transpired below the Highwind. Anyone who simply reads the script of the LA version can see that feelings are being communicated verbally.

I'll bite, what words? Seriously, transcribe them. What words did they use to communicate their feelings? Actually no, don't try to answer because I played the game, saw the LA version, and what you are claiming did not happen.

In addition, a non-verbal moment is also expressed in both versions as well.

Does this actually seem productive to you? Your attempts to discredit the HA HW scene, I mean. It's not working, you're just having to repeat yourself a lot, I'm seeing you outright make shit up (and not even original shit), and its just kinda sad. Plus, again, the HW scene is not the sole pillar holding up Cloti. They have a full foundation, those two

Therefore, the story and character summaries could be referring to either version. And I believe the story and character summaries have been purposely vague because Coud x Tifa are an optional couple.

There's really only one response to this, at this point (unless I feel like repeating a goodly portion of this post... and I don't) so...

What is said on the FTOIL page does not trump what is said in character and story summaries.

Doesn't have to, there isn't a contradiction between the two.

And the character and story summaries never specify which version they are referring to.

They don't have to, they clearly mean what they mean. You just don't wanna see it.

I simply disagree with your interpretation

The only one running around with an interpretation is you m'lady. If you put that down, you might find yourself running about with the truth instead.

of what the FTOIL page is declaring. I don't think we can assume that when SE talks about the HA version on a romantic couples page that they are therefore talking about it every other time it is brought up.

See above. Repeatedly.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd like to point out one thing real quick before we go on.

The FTOIL page is NOT meant to display 'romantic couples'
It's meant to display 'Displays of romantic affection.' There are plenty of romantic couples in the games who are absent from the page because they have no major romantic 'moment' or confession scene.

Yang and Sheila, Gilbert and Anna, Cid and Sierra, Irvine and Selphie, Cid and Edea, Laguna and Raine, Cid and Hildegarde, Freya and Fratley, Amarant and Lani, and Wakka and Lulu.

None of them are featured on the FTOIL page. Steiner and Beatrix's late night confession, however, is. Which is an interesting distinction.

Oh, and the story section for the 10th anniversary Ultimania says Cloud and Tifa share their feelings for each other.
Cloud's profile and Tifa's profile indicate that Tifa's date occured. Aerith's, interestingly, indicates hers did, which is part of why the question of which date occured is muddied.

However, even with the 'if this, then that' mentions, SE has been fairly consistent that the high highwind occurred, mentioning 8 times that Cloud and Tifa share their mutual feelings FOR EACH OTHER that evening, and implying in a few of these that this is related to their later living together.

The FTOIL page is so compelling not because it's 'the only proof we have,' it's compelling because it's undeniably telling us that Cloud and Tifa DID share mutual feelings, and that they were romantic. It's far from the only evidence for C/T.

There's a sizable web of evidence to indicate that Cloud and Tifa are in love, chose each other as their partners as they've wanted to do for nearly a decade or so, and formed a family because of their love for each other.
SE consistently reinforces the idea that Cloud and Tifa belong together and will remain together.

Contrariwise, they keep emphasizing that Zack and Aerith belong together, including in Theatrythm, where Aerith's profile includes the note 'As she searces for the traces of Zack living on in Cloud, the innocent love in her heart will make her destiny's plaything.'

So even her interest in Cloud is explicitly painted with her love for Zack now.

 

[BlankBeat]

It's meant to display 'Displays of romantic affection.' There are plenty of romantic couples in the games who are absent from the page because they have no major romantic 'moment' or confession scene.

C/A's date being included on the FTOIL page is proof that variable romantic scenes with no canon version are perfectly acceptable and appropriate on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the intent of the page is not to canonize events or pairings, nor does a canon version of a romantic scene have to exist to be included on the FTOIL page. The C/A date scene is included, therefore it is not a requirement that every variable romantic scene has to have a canon version in order to be included on the FTOIL page.

Now I know the Cloti argument is that the captions are what differentiate the the C/A date scene and the C/T Highwind scene, even though page 232 does the exact same thing as the C/A date caption (and just because it doesn't say that the C/T Highwind scene is variable directly on the FTOIL page, doesn't mean that the information doesn't still exist, or that page 232 isn't just as relevant as the FTOIL page).

The difference is that the date scene between either C/A or C/T is always romantic, so therefore there is no need to specify between the two versions. And why would you specify between the two versions of the date scene if the goal of the page is to show all examples of romantic displays of affection?

And since the love triangle is only explicitly stated to be between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could be displaying romantic affection. Therefore, there is no need to specify which version is romantic because both the C/A and C/T dates are inherently romantic because of the love triangle. (Although I do think SE purposely picked C/A's date screenshot to balance out the Highwind scene and make it clear that romantic feelings can exist between either pairing.)

However, the same cannot be said for the Highwind scene. Only in the HA version are romantic feelings expressed, so therefore it is necessary to specify which version they are referring to in that specific scene.

The only reason they have to specify about which Highwind version they are referring to is because they aren't clear about it anywhere else in the compilation, and because only one version displays romantic affection. Therefore, on a page discussing displays of romantic affection it is necessary to specify between the two Highwind scenes (since only one is romantic), but it is not necessary to specify between the C/T and C/A date scenes because they are both romantic, and the goal of the page is to show as many romantic displays of affection as possible.

And yes, SE could specify that only two dates are romantic. But given that it is common knowledge and a stated fact that the love triangle is only between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could possibly be displaying romantic affection.

And if the page is simply listing displays of romantic affection, even variable ones (ie: date scene), then you openly admit that the page is not necessarily declaring which versions of variable scenes are or aren't canon. SE is simply showing which scenes display romantic affection, even if they are variable. And in the case of the Highwind scene, only the HA version is romantic, so that is why the HA version is specified on the FTOIL page and the date scene isn't.

The bottom line is this: the HA Highwind scene is the only version that shows romantic affection, but that does not necessarily mean that the HA version is what has to happen from a narrative standpoint. Nowhere does SE say that Cloud loves Tifa, and no romantic scenes are shown between the two, and it is clear that they sleep in separate rooms (Tifa tells Cloud to drink in his "room," Marlene sleeps with Tifa only, and there are screenshots of a bed in Cloud's room).

I think it is very clear that these two formed a family due to extenuating circumstances, and that this family is one of friends who were placed together by those extenuating circumstances. Tifa openly admits friends can form a family together, and she even says that their family isn't a "real" family (Case of Tifa). Furthermore, Barret may not be apart of the family of 4 while he is away, but when he returns he will most definitely be included back into the family since Marlene is, afterall, his daughter. Furthermore, in Case of Tifa Barret says before leaving, "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!")

You also said:

It's meant to display 'Displays of romantic affection.' There are plenty of romantic couples in the games who are absent from the page because they have no major romantic 'moment' or confession scene.

Yang and Sheila, Gilbert and Anna, Cid and Sierra, Irvine and Selphie, Cid and Edea, Laguna and Raine, Cid and Hildegarde, Freya and Fratley, Amarant and Lani, and Wakka and Lulu.

None of them are featured on the FTOIL page. Steiner and Beatrix's late night confession, however, is. Which is an interesting distinction.

So why can't the same logic be applied to C/A?

Basically you are saying that the FTOIL page is not the end-all-be-all in declaring which couples are or are not canon. If a couple can still be romantic and not be included on the FTOIL page (as you stated above), then Aerith and Cloud can still be a romantic couple even if their two names do not appear together on the FTOIL page.

The bottom line is the HA version is not explicitly referred to anywhere else. Nor is it ever stated that mutual feelings have to be expressed "without words" except on the FTOIL page. Well, it makes sense that the FTOIL page is the only time where it specifies that it has to be "without words," because if you believe that the HA version is the only time where mutual feelings are expressed without words, then of course the "without words" distinction could only appear on a page talking about displays of romantic affection.

And why wouldn't SE simply say "feelings of romance" or "feelings of love" in the character and story summaries? It appears to me that SE is being purposely vague because depending on how you play the game you can obtain either version of the Highwind scene, and the feelings don't necessarily have to be romantic depending on which version you obtain. Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on your interpretation of the events that happen in the compilation and the decisions you make while playing the game. Cloud's love for her can either be platonic or romantic.

In addition, the mutual feelings expressed in both versions are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other.

In both versions:

Tifa: "As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared."

Then later on...

Cloud: "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."

Both of these quotes occur during the "final hours" before the final battle, and they also occur after a mutual non-verbal moment was shared between the two (the scene I'm referring to also happens to be the one that is actually pictured on the FTOIL page).

It seems clear that the mutual feelings are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. Only is the FTOIL page clearly referring to the HA version because it is said that the mutual feelings were expressed "without words". But that doesn't mean mutual feelings weren't expressed verbally in the LA version, all it means is that mutual feelings were expressed "without words" in the HA version. And all the FTOIL page is stating is that these mutual feelings were romantic in one version, not that the HA version is canon in terms of the story.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

C/A's date being included on the FTOIL page is proof that variable romantic scenes with no canon version are perfectly acceptable and appropriate on the FTOIL page.

What about the other three dates that get just as much mention? By which I mean, none of the specific dates are referred to at all.

Therefore, the intent of the page is not to canonize events or pairings, nor does a canon version of a romantic scene have to exist to be included on the FTOIL page.

Still trying to tell people the point of a page that you don't seem to grasp the point of.

The C/A date scene is included,

No. The C/A date is not included. The date does not get the same importance as the successful romantic confessions which are the real meat and potatoes of the page. The "C/A date" is just one of four failed attempts at such emotional confession. It isn't given any particular importance, not even enough to refer explicitly to Aerith at all. Despite your fixation on their choice of image to represent the date sequence, the actual discussion of such is just as much about Tifa/Yuffie/Barret as it is about Aerith.

therefore it is not a requirement that every variable romantic scene has to have a canon version in order to be included on the FTOIL page.

Date scene =/= successful romantic confession.

Now I know the Cloti argument is that the captions are what differentiate the the C/A date scene and the C/T Highwind scene, even though page 232 does the exact same thing as the C/A date caption (and just because it doesn't say that the C/T Highwind scene is variable directly on the FTOIL page, doesn't mean that the information doesn't still exist, or that page 232 isn't just as relevant as the FTOIL page).

Yeah no. Page 232 does not in any way contradict our points about the FTOIL page. The "C/A" date caption (which AGAIN, is not discussing the C/A date any more than the other THREE dates) is all the mention the date gets, for one thing. The HW scene was important enough to require a notation about the other version for completeness sake in describing the story. The version that actually happened? Still the one where Cloud and Tifa successfully confirm that they're in love.

The difference is that the date scene between either C/A or C/T is always romantic, so therefore there is no need to specify between the two versions. And why would you specify between the two versions of the date scene if the goal of the page is to show all examples of romantic displays of affection?

The difference is that the date scene, no matter who shows up, consists of whatever the date tries to confess to Cloud flying a mile over his spikey head. Cloud doesn't get it. If its always romantic, its always one sided. It doesn't matter which one of them happened. Which is probably why they didn't bother to specify which one happened.

And since the love triangle is only explicitly stated to be between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could be displaying romantic affection. Therefore, there is no need to specify which version is romantic because both the C/A and C/T dates are inherently romantic because of the love triangle. (Although I do think SE purposely picked C/A's date screenshot to balance out the Highwind scene and make it clear that romantic feelings can exist between either pairing.)

And yet Yuffie and Barret both have a date that can happen, which get just as much direct mention on the FTOIL page as Aerith (that is to say none). And how can you say only the points on the triangle could possibly be displaying romantic affection? Yuffie outright kisses Cloud on her date. That in and of itself shows you're not seeing the entire picture here.

I'll grant you, your thought that the picture used for the date blurb being of Aerith could very well be a nod to Aerith and her potential for romance with Cloud. Its as good a guess as any as to why they used that one. But again, we know Aerith had some romantic interest in Cloud, so its not even that such feelings "could" exist in either pairing as that they do. We just know which one Cloud definitively returns those feelings towards... and that's Tifa.

However, the same cannot be said for the Highwind scene. Only in the HA version are romantic feelings expressed, so therefore it is necessary to specify which version they are referring to in that specific scene.

Not really. When SE talks about the HW scene, its about the HA version. Its pretty well constant. And since we know Tifa loves Cloud, and we know Cloud has been infatuated with/in love with Tifa since he was a little kid via the Lifestream event, and we know they move in together and raise kids and belong/have a future together afterward... which one makes sense and which one doesn't fit into the narrative even if you try to smash it in with a hammer?

The only reason they have to specify about which Highwind version they are referring to is because they aren't clear about it anywhere else in the compilation,

Except they are.

and because only one version displays romantic affection.

Only one of them displays anything.

Therefore, on a page discussing displays of romantic affection it is necessary to specify between the two Highwind scenes (since only one is romantic), but it is not necessary to specify between the C/T and C/A date scenes because they are both romantic, and the goal of the page is to show as many romantic displays of affection as possible.

That's why the date got mentioned, yes. The date, in every possible permutation. Not just with Aerith. The LA HW is indeed not terribly romantic, or terribly anything. It is short and apathetic. It is a failure to confirm romantic feelings, not an absence of such feelings. The story has already told us such feelings are there, thanks Lifestream event. The version that actually happened is just the version where they tell each other so... albeit without words. And it did happen. It is not specified that there were two version on the FTOIL page. Said page just features a page number where you can learn more about what was in the game. It doesn't affect which version did or did not happen.

And yes, SE could specify that only two dates are romantic.

Which they didn't, for obvious reasons.

But given that it is common knowledge and a stated fact that the love triangle is only between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could possibly be displaying romantic affection.

Tell it to Yuffie's lips.

And if the page is simply listing displays of romantic affection, even variable ones (ie: date scene), then you openly admit that the page is not necessarily declaring which versions of variable scenes are or aren't canon.

No one has admitted any such thing. The dates, as you have noted, all contain an element of attempted confession. Failed elements one and all, but its still there. Ergo they all deserve a mention on the page. With the HW, only the HA version rates a mention on the FTOIL page.

SE is simply showing which scenes display romantic affection, even if they are variable. And in the case of the Highwind scene, only the HA version is romantic, so that is why the HA version is specified on the FTOIL page and the date scene isn't.

The HW scene isn't specified as you keep claiming. There is a notation on page 232 about an alternate version that comes about under the right circumstances. FTOIL page is all about the HA version. Other mentions of the HW scene are all about the HA version. The HA version is what happened.

The bottom line is this:

Cloti is canon, and that's the bottom line.

the HA Highwind scene is the only version that shows romantic affection, but that does not necessarily mean that the HA version is what has to happen from a narrative standpoint.

Look at the narrative again. It really is.

Nowhere does SE say that Cloud loves Tifa,

Lifestream event.

and no romantic scenes are shown between the two, and it is clear that they sleep in separate rooms (Tifa tells Cloud to drink in his "room," Marlene sleeps with Tifa only, and there are screenshots of a bed in Cloud's room).

If Cloud doesn't sleep with Tifa, then you are claiming Tifa sneaks into Cloud's room when he's asleep to ask if he loves her? Creepy stalker is creepy then. No, the only way that scene makes sense is if they habitually share a bed, not that such is the be all end all of "they are/are not together!" Marlene slept with Tifa before 7th Heaven was completed, she and Denzel have their own room now. Do stop ignoring that at least. And despite the same claim having been made in the past, there is not so much a bed in Cloud's "room" as a tiny spartan cot. No dressers or closets for his clothes, no creature comforts, nothing. Its an office. There are random tires and bike parts, a ton of invoices for his business, and a cot. A cot which, tradition suggests, is there so he can crash on it without waking up Tifa if a delivery has him out of the house very late. And while I admit that direct, non-subtle romantic interaction between Cloud and Tifa is rare, that's in character. They're both shy, somewhat repressed dorks. They have highly similar issues, where that sort of thing is concerned. And no entry in the Comp, not the OG nor AC/C nor even CoT is a romance. That's not the focus. So with the exception of times when their feelings are being written on the wall whether they like it or not (Lifestream says hi again) or the few times they manage to work up the courage (HAHW) its not a surprise that we don't see them go all lovey dovey.

I think it is very clear that these two formed a family due to extenuating circumstances,

You're not entirely wrong here, they did not expect to be called a family when Marlene became their sole responsibility. Being, again, shy dorks and all its not a surprise they needed a little push to take another step down the road to domestic bliss to go with their love.

and that this family is one of friends who were placed together by those extenuating circumstances.

Wrong family, again. There are two. AVALANCHE, from Cloud to Barret all the way down to Nanaki and Cait Sith/Reeve, are the family of friends. The ones who share the sins of the past. Cloud and Tifa's family, the Seventh Heaven family, consists of just four people. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel. Parents and kids.

Tifa openly admits friends can form a family together, and she even says that their family isn't a "real" family (Case of Tifa).

See above. And Tifa has issues, unsurprising considering her backstory. She worries that her family with Cloud isn't real, yes. And thanks to Cloud's attitude when things go wrong, I can see why she'd worry. But then Cloud gets over his past, recovers from Geostigma, and comes home. Tifa was worried they aren't a real family. She got proved wrong.

Furthermore, Barret may not be apart of the family of 4 while he is away,

No might about it, he's not. Also thank you for admitting the family of four exists

but when he returns he will most definitely be included back into the family since Marlene is, afterall, his daughter.

He's Marlene's dad, yes. He is Marlene's family, and he is part of the actual family of friends you like to refer to. He's not just gonna jump in and be part of Denzel's family. He might get viewed as an uncle or the like, that'd be expected all things considered. But he will not be part of the nuclear family unit that was formed in Seventh Heaven.

Furthermore, in Case of Tifa Barret says before leaving, "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!")

The family's strength. Not, you'll note, our family's strength. He knows he ain't part of it. Cloud and Tifa just needed a little push, as I said above.

Basically you are saying that the FTOIL page is not the end-all-be-all in declaring which couples are or are not canon.

I know this bit was directed at Ryu, but I too have pointed that out. There is way more to it than one page.

If a couple can still be romantic and not be included on the FTOIL page (as you stated above), then Aerith and Cloud can still be a romantic couple even if their two names do not appear together on the FTOIL page.

This is almost sound logic here, I gotta admit. It is entirely true that the FTOIL page does not disprove Clerith. It does not prove a negative. And we never claimed it did. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate Cloud ever loved Aerith. And whether he did or not... he's with Tifa now. The FTOIL page is just one thing that tells us so.

The bottom line is the HA version is not explicitly referred to anywhere else.

You keep saying this. But really, define "explicitly" for us would ya? It doesn't get much more explicit which one its talking about without a clear label of "this is the HA version we're referring to here." Which would actually weaken our point in a manner of speaking, if it were. As is, it expects you to read the words and conclude that there is only one version it could be talking about. That's pretty telling.

Nor is it ever stated that mutual feelings have to be expressed "without words" except on the FTOIL page.

Feelings are only expressed in one version. In the HA version, feelings are expressed wordlessly. Ergo, feelings were expressed wordlessly. HA is what happened.

Well, it makes sense that the FTOIL page is the only time where it specifies that it has to be "without words," because if you believe that the HA version is the only time where mutual feelings are expressed without words, then of course the "without words" distinction could only appear on a page talking about displays of romantic affection.

Ask yourself this: Do you deny that Tifa loves Cloud? If not, the only way their feelings can be mutual/confirmed to match is if Cloud loves Tifa. No matter how many times you claim otherwise, 1 + 1 will = 2.

And why wouldn't SE simply say "feelings of romance" or "feelings of love" in the character and story summaries?

Couldn't tell ya. Lemme know if they ever explain such a minor decision to you, assuming they even remember their reasoning by now.

It appears to me that SE is being purposely vague because depending on how you play the game you can obtain either version of the Highwind scene, and the feelings don't necessarily have to be romantic depending on which version you obtain.

It appears to me you see it that way because you don't want Cloti to be canon. But just because it appears to me doesn't mean I am correct. You're making assumptions here that don't line up with everything we've been told and shown. They weren't vague. Its clear as day what happened.

Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on your interpretation of the events that happen in the compilation and the decisions you make while playing the game. Cloud's love for her can either be platonic or romantic.

No. No interpretations. Cloud and Tifa are what is. They became aware of each other's feelings in the Lifestream. Those feelings were not optional, there is no alternate version, no variable scene. Despite having two versions, the only version of the HW scene that is consistent with that event is the HA version. The HA version is the one discussed essentially every time the HW scene is referred to. Cloud and Tifa live together afterward. They adopted a kid together. They are explicitly described by Word of God as belonging together and having a future together.

I know you are looking for options here, but there is a Trope for what happened here. It is called "Cutting Off The Branches." There was an option as to which HW scene the player saw. A branch in the path. One of those branches has been sliced off now. We know what happened.

In addition, the mutual feelings expressed in both versions are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other.

I agreed earlier that yes, this is without a doubt part of what they are feeling. But really, Tifa has been with Cloud since the second bombing run. They have nowhere else to go by the endgame. They knew full well that they would at least have each other. Its nothing new. In the canon version of the scene they know they're not alone in a very different way than before. In the LA... they express nothing.

In both versions:

Your quotes didn't make it into this here reply, but what I said above covers it anyway.

Both of these quotes occur during the "final hours" before the final battle, and they also occur after a mutual non-verbal moment was shared between the two

Wordless confirmation of mutual feelings is HA. LA is apathetic and short.

(the scene I'm referring to also happens to be the one that is actually pictured on the FTOIL page).

The picture on the FTOIL page is them snuggling on a rock. Yes, that much happens in both versions. Just in the one that happened, snuggling is a slightly different thing

It seems clear that the mutual feelings are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other.

It seems clear that if Tifa loves Cloud, and their feelings match, then Cloud loves Tifa. Again, they knew they had each other. Hell, Tifa went wading around in Cloud's fucked up mind and didn't abandon him after. I doubt anyone was overly worried about getting left all alone after that.

Only is the FTOIL page clearly referring to the HA version because it is said that the mutual feelings were expressed "without words". But that doesn't mean mutual feelings weren't expressed verbally in the LA version,

No, the fact that the LA version is apathetic and short is what means mutual feelings weren't expressed. Not to mention you can read the entire dialogue of the scene. I have. They did no such thing. Any claim of anything important being expressed in LA is fanfic.

all it means is that mutual feelings were expressed "without words" in the HA version.

Which is what happened. Its canon.

And all the FTOIL page is stating is that these mutual feelings were romantic in one version, not that the HA version is canon in terms of the story.

The story says it is. Story summaries and the like make explicit, to use your words, mention of it. Words aren't the only way is frequently brought up when Tifa or Cloud is referenced or cameos in another game.

Honestly, the forest for the trees metaphor isn't even enough at this point. "Cloud and Tifa are together" is basically written on the wall, not even in fine print. Its in great big caps letters. You're standing too close to the wall. You need to step back and read the writing.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Theatrythm also has these quotes -

Aerith -

"Cloud ... I'm searching for you"

"I want to meet you"

Cloud -

"But I'm right here"

As well as Aerith's "How about if I go out with you once?" and "I knew that Cloud would come for me" which are all obvious references to the Cloud and Aerith Gold Saucer date and/or Aerith's positive interest in getting to know more of the Cloud, over the Zack. Also "Are you...jealous? Hmm? Hmmm?"

There is this too. One of the Collectacard passwords for the Aerith card is "A DA-TE"

Just sayin'

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Theatrythm also has these quotes -

Aerith -

"Cloud ... I'm searching for you"

"I want to meet you"

Cloud -

"But I'm right here"

A very good example of Aerith trying to get at something and Cloud utterly failing to understand. Contrast that with the interaction with Tifa during CoT, where Cloud is the one saying "I think I can move on, because I have you." When Tifa responds that he's always had her, he clarifies. What he means this time is kind of different from before.

As well as Aerith's "How about if I go out with you once?" and "I knew that Cloud would come for me" which are all obvious references to the Cloud and Aerith Gold Saucer date and/or Aerith's positive interest in getting to know more of the Cloud, over the Zack. Also "Are you...jealous? Hmm? Hmmm?"

All things that say a lot about Aerith's interests and desires. Not so much about Cloud's.

There is this too. One of the Collectacard passwords for the Aerith card is "A DA-TE"

And that is a wonderful reference. It is not equal to a mutual confirmation of feelings, wordless or otherwise.

Just sayin'

Yup, just sayin' but not provin'.


I just wanna say that I know a lot of folks love the very idea of Clerith. That they identify with it, and so on. And its wonderful that it makes you happy, that's what shipping should be about if it must exist at all. Enjoyment. But it simply isn't true. To put it in context of my current username theme...

THERE IS NO FAIR. NO JUSTICE. THERE'S JUST CLOTI.

 

[Strangelove]

On a tablets so I am not messing around with proper quote formatting

- "the wording in the story summaries doesn't say it's the high version or whatever"

Look at Locke and Celes' caption, and it says ようやく想いを通わせた for them. 想いを通わせる is a phrase that's appear like a dozen times or something in the other story summaries and profiles. It's obviously got romantic connotations, seeing as its here on a page about romantic love.

So when that same phrase is used, in reference to a scene that had a romantic variation, why is it an inexcusable leap to think they are talking about the romantic scene?

 

[Ryushikaze]

C/A's date being included on the FTOIL page is proof that variable romantic scenes with no canon version are perfectly acceptable and appropriate on the FTOIL page.

I find it interesting you call it 'C/A's date' and not 'the gold saucer dates,' since there are three more of them and ALL of them are included in the caption.
nfirm

Therefore, the intent of the page is not to canonize events or pairings, nor does a canon version of a romantic scene have to exist to be included on the FTOIL page. The C/A date scene is included, therefore it is not a requirement that every variable romantic scene has to have a canon version in order to be included on the FTOIL page.

It's interesting that you focus on this in response to me, since I specified that the scene was focusing in on displays of romantic affection, and was not arguing that a scene had to be 'canon' to be on the page. My contention is that 'which version' occurs is irrelevant, as we are told what happened that night, and what we are told happens matches the overwhelming majority of each other time the highwind scene is mentioned, that being that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings match. As there is only apathy in the 'low' version, and thus, no feelings, it must mean the high version. As this page confirms that the feelings are romantic, it simply means that the high version- which we have understood is the narratively valid version for quite some time prior to this page being revealed- is a romantic confirmation.

Now I know the Cloti argument is that the captions are what differentiate the the C/A date scene and the C/T Highwind scene, even though page 232 does the exact same thing as the C/A date caption (and just because it doesn't say that the C/T Highwind scene is variable directly on the FTOIL page, doesn't mean that the information doesn't still exist, or that page 232 isn't just as relevant as the FTOIL page).

Actually, P232 again confirms that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other, noting only in a sidebar that different versions can occur depending on Tifa's affection value. Contrariwise, the story summaries almost universally declare- without mention to variability- that Cloud and Tifa share feelings, using the same terms used to describe Locke and Celes's romantic sharing.

The difference is that the date scene between either C/A or C/T is always romantic, so therefore there is no need to specify between the two versions. And why would you specify between the two versions of the date scene if the goal of the page is to show all examples of romantic displays of affection?

Four versions. And you would not. Which is why they don't. And that's why you can't use Aerith being in the picture to mean anything. It does not inform. We already know Aerith loved Cloud. We also already know she confessed, and Cloud had no clue what she was talking about.

And since the love triangle is only explicitly stated to be between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could be displaying romantic affection. Therefore, there is no need to specify which version is romantic because both the C/A and C/T dates are inherently romantic because of the love triangle. (Although I do think SE purposely picked C/A's date screenshot to balance out the Highwind scene and make it clear that romantic feelings can exist between either pairing.)

The fact that Yuffie kisses Cloud would, as mentioned, indicate that they are NOT the only possible displays of romantic affection.

However, the same cannot be said for the Highwind scene. Only in the HA version are romantic feelings expressed, so therefore it is necessary to specify which version they are referring to in that specific scene.

Which they do not do on the FTOIL page. They simply state that Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings for each other, same as it does on 5 other occasions, including the U10 story sequence and Tifa's profile in the CCU. The only difference is that by its inclusion on the page, it's now unequivovably romantic.

The only reason they have to specify about which Highwind version they are referring to is because they aren't clear about it anywhere else in the compilation, and because only one version displays romantic affection. Therefore, on a page discussing displays of romantic affection it is necessary to specify between the two Highwind scenes (since only one is romantic), but it is not necessary to specify between the C/T and C/A date scenes because they are both romantic, and the goal of the page is to show as many romantic displays of affection as possible.

And the Yuffie date as well. Furthermore, while it is mentioned there are four dates that CAN be encountered, the page only mentions that Cloud and Tifa DO confirm their feelings without words.

And yes, SE could specify that only two dates are romantic. But given that it is common knowledge and a stated fact that the love triangle is only between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith, those are the only two dates that could possibly be displaying romantic affection.

You keep saying these things contrary to reality. Yuffie proves you wrong.

And if the page is simply listing displays of romantic affection, even variable ones (ie: date scene), then you openly admit that the page is not necessarily declaring which versions of variable scenes are or aren't canon. SE is simply showing which scenes display romantic affection, even if they are variable. And in the case of the Highwind scene, only the HA version is romantic, so that is why the HA version is specified on the FTOIL page and the date scene isn't.

The page has never been required to declare which highwind scene is canon. Likewise, the FTOIL DOES NOT specify the high highwind scene at any point. The question of version is irrelevant to the FTOIL page. Mutual confirmation is merely declared as the outcome of the evening, same as it is on numerous other occasions, including other occasions where romantic language is used.

The bottom line is this: the HA Highwind scene is the only version that shows romantic affection, but that does not necessarily mean that the HA version is what has to happen from a narrative standpoint. Nowhere does SE say that Cloud loves Tifa, and no romantic scenes are shown between the two, and it is clear that they sleep in separate rooms (Tifa tells Cloud to drink in his "room," Marlene sleeps with Tifa only, and there are screenshots of a bed in Cloud's room).

Again you make claims that have no bearing in truth. Tifa simply says 'room' in the original Japanese, you are trying to argue that Marlene's sleeping with Tifa instead of her dad WHILE THE HOUSE IS BEING BUILT means she always sleeps with Tifa, despite quite obviously sleeping in her own room (later shared with Denzel) once it is built, and that the cot, which doesn't even have a full mattress, means that Cloud's office is a bedroom despite ANY signs of it having a closet, dresser, amoire, or other amenities one would expect in a bedroom, like those seen in the children's bedroom.

I think it is very clear that these two formed a family due to extenuating circumstances, and that this family is one of friends who were placed together by those extenuating circumstances.

You think wrongly. Cloud could have left Tifa at any point, but MERE HOURS after the defeat of Sephiroth, he feels confidence in starting a new life because he has Tifa. Cloud is HAPPY to live with Tifa. She is an important woman in his life. Seriously, what are these extenuating circumstances?

Tifa openly admits friends can form a family together, and she even says that their family isn't a "real" family (Case of Tifa).

And yet, they ARE a real family. They are CLOUD'S family.

Furthermore, Barret may not be apart of the family of 4 while he is away, but when he returns he will most definitely be included back into the family since Marlene is, afterall, his daughter. Furthermore, in Case of Tifa Barret says before leaving, "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!")

Barret has never been included as part of the 7th heaven family, either of 3 or of 4, and excludes himself from it. Cloud excludes him from it. When he returns, it is very likely Marlene will LEAVE the 7th Heaven family unit.

You also said:
So why can't the same logic be applied to C/A?

Basically you are saying that the FTOIL page is not the end-all-be-all in declaring which couples are or are not canon. If a couple can still be romantic and not be included on the FTOIL page (as you stated above), then Aerith and Cloud can still be a romantic couple even if their two names do not appear together on the FTOIL page.

They could be. I will not deny that. Your problem, as always, is in PROVING that they were a couple. This will be quite difficult, as Cloud is Canonically oblivious to her feelings while she was alive and less than a month later is revealing and then confirming mutual feelings of affection for Tifa.

The bottom line is the HA version is not explicitly referred to anywhere else. Nor is it ever stated that mutual feelings have to be expressed "without words" except on the FTOIL page. Well, it makes sense that the FTOIL page is the only time where it specifies that it has to be "without words," because if you believe that the HA version is the only time where mutual feelings are expressed without words, then of course the "without words" distinction could only appear on a page talking about displays of romantic affection.

You're oddly focused on those two words, when no one here has made them the crux of an argument. That suggests you're projecting your own fixation on those words onto other people, which suggests to me that you're doing it in an attempt to have to avoid facing the realization that the words are actually rather irrelevant to the crucial point, that being that the feelings confirmed that evening were romantic ones, period, end of.

And why wouldn't SE simply say "feelings of romance" or "feelings of love" in the character and story summaries? It appears to me that SE is being purposely vague because depending on how you play the game you can obtain either version of the Highwind scene, and the feelings don't necessarily have to be romantic depending on which version you obtain. Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on your interpretation of the events that happen in the compilation and the decisions you make while playing the game. Cloud's love for her can either be platonic or romantic.

Cloud and Tifa, regardless of how you played the game, decide to move in together, form a family together, BELONG TOGETHER, have a future together, have a relationship where Tifa wears the pants, are considered the mother and father of the children in their care by each other, and Tifa MUST be someone's beloved in the context of Advent Children. The only reason you think it's vague is because you desperately wish it to be so.

In addition, the mutual feelings expressed in both versions are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other.

In both versions:

Then later on...
Both of these quotes occur during the "final hours" before the final battle, and they also occur after a mutual non-verbal moment was shared between the two (the scene I'm referring to also happens to be the one that is actually pictured on the FTOIL page).

It seems clear that the mutual feelings are that they don't feel alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. Only is the FTOIL page clearly referring to the HA version because it is said that the mutual feelings were expressed "without words". But that doesn't mean mutual feelings weren't expressed verbally in the LA version, all it means is that mutual feelings were expressed "without words" in the HA version. And all the FTOIL page is stating is that these mutual feelings were romantic in one version, not that the HA version is canon in terms of the story.

You're ignoring the 'for each other' aspect, which is EXPLICTLY mentioned in Tifa's CCU profile, which makes the ;mutual feelings of not feeling alone' angle completely moot.
Also, the FTOIL page doesn't canonize the HA scene. It doesn't need to. Plenty of other places do that just fine. Like the notable scenes page. Or the U10 timeline. Or Tifa's CC profile.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Theatrythm also has these quotes -

Aerith -

"Cloud ... I'm searching for you"

"I want to meet you"

Cloud -

"But I'm right here"

As well as Aerith's "How about if I go out with you once?" and "I knew that Cloud would come for me" which are all obvious references to the Cloud and Aerith Gold Saucer date and/or Aerith's positive interest in getting to know more of the Cloud, over the Zack. Also "Are you...jealous? Hmm? Hmmm?"

There is this too. One of the Collectacard passwords for the Aerith card is "A DA-TE"

Just sayin'

It can have them all it wants. All those quotes are now painted by the revelation that, in Cloud, Aerith seeks Zack. So all her flirations with Cloud are themselves Z/A.
Hilarious, no?

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

It's a miracle, I still remember my password here lol.

Anyways, hope I'm not intruding but before I get lazy again,does anyone have a rough estimate of how many ultimanias we currently have for FF7 ?