The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Roger]

I'd say it's less Aerith being delusional, and more her thinking about what she wanted their relationship to be.

Lifestream White 3
The woman considered ways of telling Cloud of the crisis. As she thought, all the feelings she couldn’t tell him about came back to her vividly. There were many things she wanted to tell Cloud. However, she did not know what she should tell him or how she should tell him. It had been a while since she had worried. In the end, the woman decided she would see Cloud first and then think about what to do.

Just from Lifestream White alone, it's quite clear that their relationship never actually got that far prior to her death.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, it's what Aerith wanted it to be, rather than what she thought it actually was, because there's no sense- apart from the beloved, and yes, that's real, but it is very disused now- in which Cloud was actually in a 'Koibito' situation Aerith.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Post FFVII LTD Assessment

I had this analysis even before I played the game but I thought I need to actually play it to have the right and credibility to say all of these.

After playing the game I just became more Cloti and a little less convinced of Clerith. Compilation and cameos aside there is enough reason to support either pairing but the evidence is stronger on Tifa's side for me. I'm just sad that the anti-Cloti campaign is a bit effective to newcomers since I was a victim of it when I was new. I had a friend in school who's a Cloti but thought Cloud just friendzoned Tifa because of the discrediting essays.

I'm really really open to any Clerith evidence but in the game itself I don't think I'll be convinced that their relationship went that far, it has potential yes but it was cut. The moment Cloud fell into her church and they escaped Reno, there is an instant chemistry between them that I didn't see with Tifa. It's like Aerith, the pretty girl in pink was the obvious love interest while Tifa is the supporting pretty girl that will be friendzoned. And it is true that meeting Aerith does send Cloud and the party into a series of events that will set their path for the entire game.

Aerith, being also the flirty very forward woman was scoring points with Cloud while Tifa was just there trying to aid him in whatever way she can. It's also a bonus that Aerith was the last Cetra and Cloud resembled her first love thus setting new mysteries and plot advancement. What match can a childhood friend who has no special bloodline like Tifa to a heroine like Aerith who has a much grander role? Moreover, Aerith's date was the default one.

When Tifa was just there being with Cloud, Aerith was separated from him when she went to the Forgotten Capital. This sets up a "man chasing a woman" feel to the game, especially when Cloud was running towards her in their dream.

Now when Cloud was supposed to reunite with Aerith the next step in the formula is ta love confession but then she was murdered. To many people, this is a classic romance cut short by evil.

I saw things differently. I think Aerith's death was part of shattering the illusion. Aerith, the girl in the dress, the healer, the destined one was not just meant to be merely the love of the hero. She was to symbolize the harshness and realism of death and yet she would be a heroine that would triumph over evil because she was able to accomplish her mission. Despite this Aerith was able to see the real Cloud, she was able to love the real him under the illusion but she did not live long enough for her to see him come out of his shell. But when she could not be with him in life, her spirit continued to watch over him, It seems that when illusions can't get in Aerith's way, death can't stop her also.

On Cloud's part, the cocky hero was just an illusion formed from his best friend that was Aerith's first love. I think the illusion that Aerith would be alive and together with Cloud comes with the shattering of the illusionary Cloud. He was nobody, probably just a clone, his memories of being a great SOLDIER were false and he's lost his sense of himself.

Then Tifa comes in. True she does not possess the appearance of a healer like Aerith and was a fighter but she was the one who wanted to support Cloud and be by his side. So again, this is another illusion shattered. Tifa wasn't just an action girl that is an accessory, she was to support Cloud not in combat alone but in finding his true self. She's not meant for something that of a grand scale like Aerith's role, but her role is a small, tender and intimate one with Cloud in the Lifestream when they shared bared their souls together.

Also, she was always there for Cloud from the beginning to the end, when he's weak and when he's strong, juxtaposing the fact that Cloud was the one who promised to help her when she's a pinch. She wanted to be the damsel but she fought right beside him. She believed that he could be someone great way before anybody thought he could be. And she did get her wish and Cloud was also able to fulfill his promise to her.

Also, the real Cloud was just like her; extraordinary people from a simple background. The real Cloud wasn't an accomplished SOLDIER but a country boy wanting impress a girl but failed. they were ordinary people who were victimized by Shinra and was forced to fight on because of what happened to them. Yet this simple, supposedly unimpressive but real Cloud was actually stronger than his illusion, defeating Sephiroth as he is.

So yeah, that's my post-game assessment. I'll admit that based on the game alone, I don't think I can conclude that Cloud and Tifa is canon. Again, I'm very open to Clerith evidences but it's still not as strong as Cloti for me. Aside from the date scene I don't see any opportunity where Cloud and Aerith shared romantic feelings. Their interactions in Midgar are short and not really personal. After the Gold Saucer date, they barely have personal interaction in the Temple of the Ancients unlike Cloud and Tifa's one on one moments in the Lifestream and at the night under the Highwind.

For me, the best evidence for Clerith is the way Cloud reacted to her death, especially the words he said right after up to his actions post FFVII. I know guilt and shock is just as plausible but the fact that he visits her church secretly by himself can be significant. That's how he met Denzel right? I don't see any other business in visiting that place other than something related to Aerith. Also, I posted just a while ago that Aerith calling Cloud "koibito" can, but not definitely, be indicative that there was love between them since if it was one side, "suki" was more appropriate.

So yeah, in short, in the OG alone, I won't be convinced of Clerith and I find Cloti evidences stronger but still not enough for a canon status. As for the compilation, it convinces me that Cloti is canon and Clerith is more plausible than I thought it was, I'm also open to Clerith being canon too but I need more evidence. So both pairings actually benefited from the compilation for me, although Cloti got more official confirmation.

 

[Tennyo]

That was actually a very nice assessment.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Also just saying, since the koibito word being two sided consultation to my sensei was requested by a Clerith at the first place I disclosed the information to the person no minus or additions. I need to be fair so I can't keep it as a secret to them. Whatever they make out of that is not my fault . I also reminded them that Tifa is described as a koibito.

 

[Vendel]

Danseru after reading your "Post FFVII LTD Assessment" I couldn't help but notice you falling into the bad habits I see people fall in to.

It's seems to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that you are looking at this as some kind of points system. Where one sides "evidence" is added up against the other side. Because I see you mention "supporting the pairing" or the like several times. I even see you musing on alternate interpretations of scenes for possible pairing points. When what you should be asking yourself is "what is the narrative/story telling me and how does this fit into it?".

Because when you look at it from a pairing mentality you seem to gloss over the fact that you are picking non-canon moments like the date scene to puff up Aerith's score. And downplaying/ignoring that Aerith is giving so much prominence early on for our sake and not Cloud's. We as the players are the ones who are supposed to fall in love with Aerith early on. And they wanted people to project their feeling onto Cloud. This was done deliberately by the creators. But this should become apparent when the big reveals happen in the story. When all of your choices are taken away.

You mention illusions shattering, but then you go right on and start adding up points for Tifa when it doesn't matter. None of that matters.

I can only think that this system you are working from is the thing that stops you from saying C/T is canon from the original game. Or that Clerith becomes "more plausible" in the compilation.

...........

Then again maybe I am just having hilarious flashbacks to that old geocities site that had the script of the game highlighted with different colors representing the times Cloud talked to or about Aerith or Tifa. And then gave points for each of those. I can't remember who was what color but I do remember that they had Aerith winning by a wide margin.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Danseru after reading your "Post FFVII LTD Assessment" I couldn't help but notice you falling into the bad habits I see people fall in to.

It's seems to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that you are looking at this as some kind of points system. Where one sides "evidence" is added up against the other side. Because I see you mention "supporting the pairing" or the like several times. I even see you musing on alternate interpretations of scenes for possible pairing points. When what you should be asking yourself is "what is the narrative/story telling me and how does this fit into it?".

Oh Vendel, you seem to be allergic to anything supportive of Clerith no offense But if you look at my last 50 posts or so I've always maintained my stand that proofs for pairings are mutually exclusive and "both can be canon because there are proof for both" is more acceptable to me than "both pairings have proof so there is no canon" I don't get why I'm adding or subtracting points, I'm just saying my perspective of the love triangle when you incorporate the theme of shattering illusions.

Because when you look at it from a pairing mentality you seem to gloss over the fact that you are picking non-canon moments like the date scene to puff up Aerith's score. And downplaying/ignoring that Aerith is giving so much prominence early on for our sake and not Cloud's. We as the players are the ones who are supposed to fall in love with Aerith early on. And they wanted people to project their feeling onto Cloud. This was done deliberately by the creators. But this should become apparent when the big reveals happen in the story. When all of your choices are taken away.

I did point out that Aerith being the more princess type-ish character as a more "obvious love interest" for the hero is an illusion to the players as well. I clearly said she's meant for greater and more important thing than merely being a lover. I think I was clear on that.

The only alternate scene I took note is the date scene and I didn't feel the need to stress out that it's non-canon, nothing else. And I did point out that if you take that away, there's nothing in the game that would give Aerith and Cloud an opportunity to exchange romantic feelings, even if there was, it's nothing compared to that of Cloud and Tifa who shared pains of their life together and knew each other's thoughts and feelings in the Lifestream.

You mention illusions shattering, but then you go right on and start adding up points for Tifa when it doesn't matter. None of that matters.

I'm not really adding points to prove Cloti because technically I wasn't proving anything, I'm just pouring out what I think that makes Cloud and Tifa's connection genuine despite the illusion that Tifa is supposed to be a fanservicy action girl. Consider this my personal analysis.

I can only think that this system you are working from is the thing that stops you from saying C/T is canon from the original game. Or that Clerith becomes "more plausible" in the compilation.

Heck no, saying that Cloti is not canon based on the OG alone has nothing to do with Aerith at all or player choices, honestly. It's just that the game is barely romantic and I'm skeptic to any pairing. The thing that convinced me that Cloti is canon in a meta-text sense is Case of Tifa.

Even if say, Clerith has a gazzillion official quotes backing them up or even if they hugged, kissed or did anything more it will not change the fact that Case of Tifa nails it that Cloti is a real thing for me.

 

[Vendel]

Danseru I have been mulling over how to respond to you for a bit. Because my first response to your "post LTD" post was a lot more point by point. I had issues with several of the points you made. But I rewrote it after thinking it over. I came to the conclusion that there was something wrong with your methodology. On how you were reaching your conclusions.

And your response to me didn't really change that.

You never addressed how you can quantify something "not canon" in the OG and say something else is "more plausible" in the compilation. (As an aside CoT is not meta-text. The ultimania are. CoT is just text) And you say you are not adding up points but you still made this statement.

So yeah, in short, in the OG alone, I won't be convinced of Clerith and I find Cloti evidences stronger but still not enough for a canon status. As for the compilation, it convinces me that Cloti is canon and Clerith is more plausible than I thought it was, I'm also open to Clerith being canon too but I need more evidence. So both pairings actually benefited from the compilation for me, although Cloti got more official confirmation.

Cloti doesn't have enough evidence until CoT? And Celrith gets more evidence in the comp but not enough to overtake cloti? What are you doing here if not keeping a scorecard?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Despite what Danseru's language choices may imply, I don't believe he was keeping a scorecard or assigning arbitrary values of any kind. When he says "stronger" and "more," I don't believe he's referring to quantities -- rather, he means clarity of intent.

I largely agree with his analysis in that the original game floating in a void is ambiguous on some details. The purpose of the Ultimanias is to clarify and explain. Case of Tifa offers further illumination in keeping with what the Ultimanias provide.

With all of that, the intentions for the original game (e.g. which version of the Highwind scene happened) become indisputable. While the narrative purpose of certain things (i.e. the Lifestream sequence) was always clear, with static details, the all-important actualization of what the two discovered then was debatable if only because we didn't know whether the two got the nerve to come clean, and whether Cloud actually was in a place to do so.

Though the Ultimanias and Case of Tifa didn't inject new material into the original game, they did solidify some details that were understandably uncertain.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Danseru I have been mulling over how to respond to you for a bit. Because my first response to your "post LTD" post was a lot more point by point. I had issues with several of the points you made. But I rewrote it after thinking it over. I came to the conclusion that there was something wrong with your methodology. On how you were reaching your conclusions.

Because that's an opinion, it was not to prove facts. I didn't even used any quote or official statement.

You never addressed how you can quantify something "not canon" in the OG and say something else is "more plausible" in the compilation. (As an aside CoT is not meta-text. The ultimania are. CoT is just text) And you say you are not adding up points but you still made this statement.

Because I can interpret Cloud and Tifa's interactions as non-romantic in the OG, or even if it was, they may have not gone that far. Don't get me wrong I do this with all couples.

Cloti doesn't have enough evidence until CoT? And Celrith gets more evidence in the comp but not enough to overtake cloti? What are you doing here if not keeping a scorecard?

It's not about overtaking, it's about not fulfilling the same qualifications. Say I have standards, Cloti meets it at Case of Tifa and the Ultimanias but it Clerith doesn't.

Tres said it all

Also, I found out that my Pro-Cloti (not Anti-Clerith) Tumblr posts are being dissected in another forum when they are not really made for the LTD *so surprised* so I posted an open message in Tumblr. I'm not really angry, I'm even laughing right now for the sheer immaturity and warfreak-ness of it. My reblog posts (replies) in Tumblr are half-assed and are just meant to clarify things are not even TLS quality so it's funny it's being a source of discussion somewhere else.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

If the developers wanted me to fall in love with Aerith, they failed in that respect. I fell for Tifa instead, and found my self disliking Aerith.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Because that's an opinion, it was not to prove facts. I didn't even used any quote or official statement.

Because I can interpret Cloud and Tifa's interactions as non-romantic in the OG, or even if it was, they may have not gone that far. Don't get me wrong I do this with all couples.

It's not about overtaking, it's about not fulfilling the same qualifications. Say I have standards, Cloti meets it at Case of Tifa and the Ultimanias but it Clerith doesn't.

Tres said it all

Also, I found out that my Pro-Cloti (not Anti-Clerith) Tumblr posts are being dissected in another forum when they are not really made for the LTD *so surprised* so I posted an open message in Tumblr. I'm not really angry, I'm even laughing right now for the sheer immaturity and warfreak-ness of it. My reblog posts (replies) in Tumblr are half-assed and are just meant to clarify things are not even TLS quality so it's funny it's being a source of discussion somewhere else.

Would this be a place with a C, an A, and an X in its name, not in that order?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Would this be a place with a C, an A, and an X in its name, not in that order?

XCA?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Would this be a place with a C, an A, and an X in its name, not in that order?

I prefer not to talk about where it came from.

I wrote a letter on tumblr saying how unfair it is to grind a post somewhere else where the person is defenseless. I didn't write it but I also find a bit cowardly because you go into a place where you know everyone's at your side to pick upon someone who's not on your side.

Ironically, when I gave them the news that koibito may be two-sided (even if it is, it's said in Aerith's perspective) they were so happy and thanking me when the thread below that thread is picking apart my Cloti posts.

In tumblr someone responded that this has been going for years for both sides and you should understand why they act that way because Clotis were doing it too. I know I missed 14 years of the LTD but I hate it that they are treating you like an antagonist or a person you can't befriend based on the ugly ship wars you weren't even part of. Even if the LTD was ugly, I find that to be a poor excuse to treat other shippers unfairly.

It's like "Please understand why they are being like that it's because back in 2006, the Advent Children forums and DesFailed..."
I was like "I wasn't there LOL" -< not exactly a real conversation but you get my point
"But you're a Cloti, a member of TLS and believes Cloti is canon!"
"...."

I said I while ago when I suggested an update for the LTD article that I'll be writing something myself. I've been writing it for months but I can't finish because of all the interruptions and I've lost motivation. But now hope I'll finish it soon and will be able to submit it as an editorial.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I prefer not to talk about where it came from.

Fair enough, but it is kinda obvious.

I wrote a letter on tumblr saying how unfair it is to grind a post somewhere else where the person is defenseless. I didn't write it but I also find a bit cowardly because you go into a place where you know everyone's at your side to pick upon someone who's not on your side.

Beware the echo chamber, natch.

Ironically, when I gave them the news that koibito may be two-sided (even if it is, it's said in Aerith's perspective) they were so happy and thanking me when the thread below that thread is picking apart my Cloti posts.

In tumblr someone responded that this has been going for years for both sides and you should understand why they act that way because Clotis were doing it too. I know I missed 14 years of the LTD but I hate it that they are treating you like an antagonist or a person you can't befriend based on the ugly ship wars you weren't even part of. Even if the LTD was ugly, I find that to be a poor excuse to treat other shippers unfairly.

I don't recall any place where anyone here was shitting on Cleriths who had no ability to join in and defend themselves without being banned.

It's like "Please understand why they are being like that it's because back in 2006, the Advent Children forums and DesFailed..."

Uhhh, ACF was hardly a Cloti stronghold, I recall getting some zingers at least as good as I gave back then. You could argue that the C/T was a more coherent presence, but that's because we were focused on the evidence in favor of the pairing, and not disproving the opposition. The only 'endorsed' pairing of ACF was The Owner/Sephiroth and that's because she was crazy. As for desfailed, it started up AFTER they started getting really ridiculous. I don't even think it's updated in over a year.

I was like "I wasn't there LOL" -< not exactly a real conversation but you get my point
"But you're a Cloti, a member of TLS and believes Cloti is canon!"
"...."

It can be tough remembering who was there back in the good/bad old days or not, but yeah, folks should be treated like individuals until they prove themselves as mere parrots.

I said I while ago when I suggested an update for the LTD article that I'll be writing something myself. I've been writing it for months but I can't finish because of all the interruptions and I've lost motivation. But now hope I'll finish it soon and will be able to submit it as an editorial.

Feel free.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Dunno maybe it's difference in perspectives. To them it's perfectly okay to talk about and criticize people's posts from other forums/sites but I just can't think that it's okay. I'm not dictating any action to them or saying them they have no right to but I think it's unfair to quote the exact phrases and words rather than list them all as arguments or at least tell them in your own words. Or rather, I think it's unfair to drag people's who are not debating into the debate.

I'm not saying I'm absolutely right in all aspects but I just feel cheated, and it irks me that just like what I say, my half-assed posts being a source of a discussion there, which is different from a full blown essay that should welcome criticism from any site. Again, a full blown essay's criticism is proper but posts... I think it's wrong. I made a simple post to answer a specific person, that person posted it someplace for the others to pick it apart. Feel free to tell me if you guys disagree with me with this, I might just be overreacting dunno.

I think it's also improper to compare it to real life where you criticize a public figure (like Romney) because he deserves it it's more akin to talking to your friend how wrong your classmate was after the class instead of participating in a class discussion yourself and letting her know what you think. That's what I think of it.

Again, I know I can't stop them nor I have to right to do so, but at least I let other know what I feel. They might be having discussion there among themselves after I wrote the message but whatever they are talking about, I feel I had already made my point that I don't really need to go there to clarify things.

 

[Splintered]

A part of me dies everytime I see someone calling Tifa a selfish bitch for telling him "to get over Aerith dying."

 

[Ryushikaze]

A part of me dies everytime I see someone calling Tifa a selfish bitch for telling him "to get over Aerith dying."

That's not even what she's saying, either the 'get over it' or the 'Aerith dying'

Cloud's issue is 'I'm a failure, I can't save anyone, not my friends, not my adopted son, not even myself, what use am I?'

It's not getting over Aerith, it's believing in himself enough to make a fucking difference to those he cares about most, to stop worrying so much about failing them that he does something and stops failing them by default.

 

[Vendel]

A part of me dies everytime I see someone calling Tifa a selfish bitch for telling him "to get over Aerith dying."

What prompted this?

Anyways, as far as I remember I can't recall Tifa ever telling Cloud anything like that. Of course this is probably from the same people who think that when Tifa gets upset at him in AC it's because she wants Cloud to choose between her and Aerith. And not, you know, about two kidnapped children.

 

[Vendel]

5 hours later and I just noticed that Ryu replied before me.

Probably mod hax.

 

[Danseru-kun]

A part of me dies everytime I see someone calling Tifa a selfish bitch for telling him "to get over Aerith dying."

It's not getting over Aerith, it's believing in himself enough to make a fucking difference to those he cares about most, to stop worrying so much about failing them that he does something and stops failing them by default.

Anyways, as far as I remember I can't recall Tifa ever telling Cloud anything like that. Of course this is probably from the same people who think that when Tifa gets upset at him in AC it's because she wants Cloud to choose between her and Aerith. And not, you know, about two kidnapped children.

You know, I defended Tifa in tumblr against these accusations. These are exactly the same thing I wrote. But guess what?

Some secretly (someone caught them through the tags) accused me of being ANTI- CLOUD because they say I make Cloud look bad and blame him for Tifa's bitchyness. Apparently, the stuff you posted is Anti-Cloud to and "I was justifying Tifa's bad actions" by bringing down Cloud. Yes, I was accused of "blindly loving Tifa" and making Cloud look like a bad guy because "he's allowed to be depressed especially that Aerith is gone. Tifa can't see that because she's selfish."

I barely brought up Aerith in my defense and I didn't even say anything opinionated about her but then I was associated with Aerith bashers....

 

[Splintered]

Some secretly (someone caught them through the tags) accused me of being ANTI- CLOUD because they say I make Cloud look bad and blame him for Tifa's bitchyness. Apparently, the stuff you posted is Anti-Cloud to and "I was justifying Tifa's bad actions" by bringing down Cloud. Yes, I was accused of "blindly loving Tifa" and making Cloud look like a bad guy because "he's allowed to be depressed especially that Aerith is gone. Tifa can't see that because she's selfish."

I think this is what prompted it.

Someone was like, why do Clotis always justify Tifa's selfishness with talking bad about Cloud, and I made a long ass rant about how no one was saying he couldn't be depressed, and that her objection was him you know... laying down and waiting to die. And that Cloud was doing wrong and he did have a problem, because... that was what the movie was based off of. Confronting your problems and overcoming them.

But no, Tifa's a totes bitch i can't believe she would actually have a conversation with him about their problems.

And really, it's not just that post. I see it constantly- why is Tifa trying to get Cloud to forget Aerith or people making shipping essays on why Tifa is so horrible to Cloud's depression.

It makes me blargasdlfsl;fs

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Cloud wasn't just sad over Aerith, he was also sad about Zack. Why does everyone always forget Zack?

 

[Shadowfox]

And really, it's not just that post. I see it constantly- why is Tifa trying to get Cloud to forget Aerith or people making shipping essays on why Tifa is so horrible to Cloud's depression.

That makes it sound like there are people who really think that crippling depression is supposed to be a good thing...

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Because Cloud's depression proves that he loves Aerith and not Tifa?