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The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Marle

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I think it makes her badass. :awesome:

I kid. :P

Seriously, I think it makes her more real and human; the turmoil of being in love with two different men, one of which she had thought abandoned her but then finds that he is dead instead. The other whom she'd never get to know in life, despite having made efforts to move on with him.

It's sort of tragic. :(

To dislike her character over something that silly is like disliking Tifa because she stole Cloud from Aerith; not true. :no:
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
The sad thing is some people actually believe this, and believe she is a bad character for it. ._.

It's her best quality tbh :monster:

On the subject of Zack/Aeris:

idk I just never saw Zack/Aeris as that big a deal. They were both pretty young and infatuated with each other the way all first love happens, but Aeris says it herself: it wasn't serious. Now, I think she was lying to Cloud about how she really felt about Zack since her feelings were a bit more serious than just liking him (or this could also just be a retcon seeing as how CC wasn't even a thought back then, but let's just go with this), but on the topic of their actual relationship, she was spot on. They had a few dates and Zack seemed to be taken away by his work a lot. Aeris' wish of seeing him more was a very upfront way of wanting the relationship to become more serious, but it never did.

Which is why I have no problem thinking she was pretty much over him during the course of five years: but suddenly feeling his death and having Cloud look and act like him was bound to shake her up and confuse her, especially since she never had any closure. But of course, during the story she slowly gets that and can leave that pain behind her.

As for her denial about his death: Yeah, she did for sure have some denial about it. She hears nothing for years and then suddenly there's a disturbance in the force. As much as him suddenly dropping off the grid hurt, I'm sure she'd rather cling to that than believe he just up and died.
 

EurAsianGirl

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Acknowledging that they weren't 'that close' as children doesn't negate the fact that they were budding friends; friends that developed into true, close friends as the game itself progressed.




A promise made in fall/winter and Cloud didn't leave until Spring. Giving ample opportunity to plant the seeds of friendship.



She also thinks chocobo chicks are cute. Point? No one is denying that their affection is romantic. Cloti is canon. But to say it's romantic because they weren't friends makes no sense. At all.



This negating any argument you could possibly have that Aerith was his 'friend'. By that standard Cloud could have no friends because he was a wtf basket case and not himself. By that logic any romance would be pointless as well. You can't have it both ways.



It's weird to be friends with your lover? :huh:



Well, gosh-oh-golly-gee, you can't ignore canon in favor of opinion on the off chance SE may retcon something sooner or later. Canon is canon. Period.

I don't know I myself am confused about the whole friendship between Cloud and Tifa but if they're friends, they're friends. I have no problem with it. Ha-Ha again I just find their whole friendship kind of weird.

I don't really think Aeris was really his friend either, I honestly think she was much more. She was more like his guardien angel or a mother than a friend.

I'm not ignoring canon, I know now that it is canon that Aeris loved Cloud in the romantic sense but I don't have to agree with it. After all Aeris is with Zack now and she always loved Zack, long enough to still be waiting for him after the events that happened in Crisis Core. I don't know I just think its strange and shallow that Square suddenly made it canon that Aeris loved Cloud romantically too when she barely knew him, the parts that she knew weren't the "real him" and SHE realizes this herself.
 

EurAsianGirl

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FireMikoKagomechan
But after the LS sequence, Cloud returns to himself again and their friendship is only made stronger afterwards. So yeah, I think they definitely became good friends during their journey. As a matter of fact, everyone in AVALANCHE became best friends on their journey. All their traumatic experiences and their share in a similar belief brought them closer together and unified them.

Plus, Cloud wasn't entirely not himself in disc one, otherwise Aerith would have never been able to pick up on the Cloud parts he presented. And therefore, that would negate any sort of relationship those two characters had, seeing as how Aerith dies before the real Cloud surfaces. I don't believe in that, so I don't like shunning disc one just because Cloud was a bit screwy in the memory department. :\

As much as I am a Zack/Aerith fan, I think it's possible that she loved Cloud more than him. However, I don't get why it's not possible for the girl to still be in love with Zack as well. Personally, I think she loved both men. It's only a matter of whom she loved more that's up for debate.

Aerith be a playa :awesome:

Except Cloud and Tifa become so much more than friends after the LS sequence....this is when they realize their own feelings for the other and so are on the road to lovers.

Also.... how is it even remotely possible that Aeris loved Cloud more than Zack.... I mean she only knew Cloud a month at the most and she was pretty serious about Zack, enough that she waited for him for years!! And even started wearing pink just because of him, as well as selling flowers!!
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
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Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I don't really think Aeris was really his friend either, I honestly think she was much more. She was more like his guardien angel or a mother than a friend.
Aerith and Tifa are both motherly to Cloud. It's a moot point to say either are practically his mother.

I'm not ignoring canon, I know now that it is canon that Aeris loved Cloud in the romantic sense but I don't have to agree with it. After all Aeris is with Zack now and she always loved Zack, long enough to still be waiting for him after the events that happened in Crisis Core. I don't know I just think its strange and shallow that Square suddenly made it canon that Aeris loved Cloud romantically too when she barely knew him, the parts that she knew weren't the "real him" and SHE realizes this herself.
She wanted to know the real Cloud, and that demonstrates that she did not love Zack as much as she did formerly. Moreover, due to the fact that Zack is not a Cetra, he is most likely just a mass of lifestream goo at this point, and considering it'd take far too much effort on Aerith's part to keep him alive, I assume she only brought him back in ACC.

Whether you think it's strange or shallow is not the point, Square Enix has decided that she truly loved Cloud.

Except Cloud and Tifa become so much more than friends after the LS sequence....this is when they realize their own feelings for the other and so are on the road to lovers.

Also.... how is it even remotely possible that Aeris loved Cloud more than Zack.... I mean she only knew Cloud a month at the most and she was pretty serious about Zack, enough that she waited for him for years!! And even started wearing pink just because of him, as well as selling flowers!!
This assumes that you cannot be friends with your lover. Don't you talk to your lover about your own problems on occasion? I don't think their friendship card just up and ran away once they became more close.

And no need to whip out the exclamation points. You mature as you become older. You lose hope as you grow older. Cloud managed to grow into her heart and allowed her to find someone new to love. At a point, once you stop feeling like the other person cares for you, you become open to other relationships.

If you don't think she loved Cloud more than Zack, why mention him as her lover and not Zack?
 

Marle

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Aerith and Tifa are both motherly to Cloud. It's a moot point to say either are practically his mother.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

I hate that argument, I really do. Neither woman is his mother. Not Tifa, not Aerith. They may have motherly feelings for him, but it does not imply Cloud sees them as mommy.

I just don't see how a girl can go from potential lover to: MOMMA :awesome:
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
THIS. THIS. THIS.

I hate that argument, I really do. Neither woman is his mother. Not Tifa, not Aerith. They may have motherly feelings for him, but it does not imply Cloud sees them as mommy.

Gawd, I can't believe I'm bringing this up... but he calls Aerith 'mother' in AC. His response to her presence is to find comfort. In my opinion, her role went from Love Interest to Guardian after her death. I'm not refuting that she could be a 'love interest' in game, but as for Cloud's view on her... well, I don't think it hinges on romance.

Having said that-- I don't think he views her as 'motherly'.

Edit:

Except Cloud and Tifa become so much more than friends after the LS sequence....this is when they realize their own feelings for the other and so are on the road to lovers.

Also.... how is it even remotely possible that Aeris loved Cloud more than Zack.... I mean she only knew Cloud a month at the most and she was pretty serious about Zack, enough that she waited for him for years!! And even started wearing pink just because of him, as well as selling flowers!!

Did I miss a post? Who said she loved Cloud more than Zack? It is possible for her to love two different men. You can't quantify love like it's some sort of substantial thing. There is no more or less, in this, there just is. Did she love Zack? Yes. Did she love Cloud? Yes. It hardly matters who she loved mostest of all because that just leads to 'ifs and what-ifs' and to that there is no end.
 

Marle

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Did I miss a post? Who said she loved Cloud more than Zack? It is possible for her to love two different men. You can't quantify love like it's some sort of substantial thing. There is no more or less, in this, there just is. Did she love Zack? Yes. Did she love Cloud? Yes. It hardly matters who she loved mostest of all because that just leads to 'ifs and what-ifs' and to that there is no end.

I said that I'm open to the possibility that she may have, indeed, loved Cloud more than Zack. But I'm more of a believer that she was in love with both men. It can't be debated that she didn't love one or the other, but it can be debated how much she loved each.

That was all I pointed out. :monster:

Having said that-- I don't think he views her as 'motherly'.

My point exactly. She may be taking on a motherly role over the planet and the children in AC/C, but after her adventures with Cloud and everything they went through, I find it difficult to believe that he went from wanting to possibly be with her to thinking she's like his mother.

Is it romantic? Well, that's what the LTD is for, right? :awesome:
 

Alexia Ashford

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pPa7C.gif
 

Max Payne

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Please do not spam in this thread folks.
 

The Adept

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Justice D. Zac
In the end, I want a Cloud and Tifa to end up together but i also think that there was also a Cloud/Aerith thing going on too. I love their chemistry. Gosh, it's okay for him to love both of them!!
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Hmm...bump? I mean, why not :P?

I always though Aerith kinda getting in the middle of Cloud and Tifa, who are my favorite pairing(not that I dislike Cloud e Aerith, because I do).

But you guys make one strong case for Cloti with those articles. Man that's alot of evidence. I can clearly see(with Joy) that Cloti is canon now :P

Though, I have meet people who claim that the feelings that Cloud and Tifa shared and confirmed under the Highwind, are not of love.

I mean...what? You'd have to close your eyes, shouting "lalala, I'm not listening" to think the feelings explicited were not of love.

Anyway....good job!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I am resurrecting this topic since someone wishes to have this argument and our front page is not the place for it.
From here


Yep, that’s what I was saying. There’s always a default. Anything new? It’s up to the player to decide. Isn’t it? Default is default. That’s just it.

But default doesn't mean canon. Nor does player choice. Only what is canon is canon.

Forgive me for thinking that Cloud’s affection is also taken into account.

Why would Cloud's affection have anything to do with Barret?

What ‘rest of the page?’ The ‘Here are the four dates’ page?
Nope, that and the page where it says the HW scene has a Low Affection version, a Deviation.

I'm not 'closing that off.' The page contains the full dialogue of the high highwind scene. Other pages and other books confirm that feelings are shared that night. Dismantled says nothing is shared during the low version of the scene.

Okay, they put it back. Still, there was the ‘….’ part.

Yes, because Cloud pauses. Ellipses denote a pause.

So the Canon is the High Affection HW Scene, the photo still shows a reference to the Low Affection version. That’s all I’m saying. The Low HW Scene is not ignored.

It does not show a reference to the low affection version. You keep asserting this. Please actually provide evidence.

You’re talking about Cloud coming back at the end of AC/ACC? For her feelings, it was said that Tifa has been hurt emotionally that others won’t easily detect, then goes “but” and adds that she has told Cloud her feelings many times. You don’t think those feelings were of ‘being hurt emotionally’?

And Cloud can't hurt her emotionally by accident? He can't do it by being increasingly emotionally distant as he works out his own issues? It must somehow relate to him loving a dead woman romantically?

Wow… He’s a liar? Tsk tsk. Bad Nomura. Oooh. Nojima does? Where did he say it? So I can read/hear it too.

He said Namine and Kairi were totally unconnected regarding KH2. And Nojima said it in an interview about the OTWTAS novellas.

HAHA! Forgive me for finding it funny, but i was merely confirming where you got the ‘one’s beloved’ part. And you did. Although, you did not have to challenge me to a duel. I never win in duels. )

Good. After nearly five years of bullshit, I'm sick of arguing about that word.

I thought Cloud originally said it then Tifa joined in, that’s why it became a joint effort. But, as it turns out, only Cloud was able to meet Aerith in the Promised Land. The Church was his promised land after all, and he was able to see Aerith there, at the end of AC.

But she wasn't why it was his promised land. Cloud's family gets the first focus, then his living friends, then Zack and Aerith get a mention in the second paragraph, which talks about them going back where they belong, the lifestream.

But you do not deny Nojima’s statement that no one other than Aerith could provide the forgiveness Cloud needed? And ‘failure to protect people who were important to him’ was mentioned. Couldn’t it mean ‘death of both Zack and Aerith’? Since he believed he had failed to protect them, leading to their deaths.

Zack, Aerith, Denzel, Tifa, everyone he thinks he's failed to protect. And Cloud has turned Aerith into the symbol of all his failures, so yes, she needs to be the one to symbolically forgive him for everyone so he can go back to being happy with his family.

So Marlene’s part of two families? Must be nice. Doesn’t Barret have a room in 7th Heaven? Since in CoT, he was able to sleep with Marlene the night before he left. So doesn’t that make him part of 7th Heaven? So, in CoT where Marlene said that she’ll add Cloud into the family, she was not thinking that Barret, her adopted father, was already a part of it, that only she and Tifa was the original, with the addition of Cloud? Aww… poor Barret.

Barret lived at the house for an entire week. He might have slept in what is used as Cloud's office. Marlene probably does include Barret in that family. Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Barret, and the creators, do not include him in the 7th heaven 'family of three' and family of four'
In fact, that 'promised land' quote you just referenced has Cloud NOT INCLUDE BARRET when listing the members of his family.

Well, he changes after Denzel was taken in. And he had originally thought the kid was brought to him by Aerith, then Tifa adds that Denzel was brought to their home. And Cloud mostly speaks with the kids, since Denzel was able to share more with Cloud than Tifa.

No, Denzel mostly speaks with Cloud. There's a difference. CoT does not that Cloud was acting more sociable with everyone, and the silly conversatons he and Tifa used to have were happening again. IOW, he was enjoying himself again. IOW, as we are told elsewhere, he was happy there.

Oh? A second credits sequence? Why haven’t I watched that in my copy of AC?

Because you have and insist on calling it a music video, which it's not.

And the day off, wasn’t it Yuffie who gave him the idea, with the one she sent to him, a “Closed” sign i think? And the call was viewed from a Third person since we couldn’t here Tifa’s side. So someone must be watching the conversation from afar.

Yuffie gave him the sign. Cloud acted on it. And no, someone doesn't need to be watching the convo from afar. Anymore than they had to be when we only heard Kadaj's half of the conversation at the start of the movie.


The part of father and mother figures, I’m not gonna say that it wasn’t as you said it is because that’s what is was shown in AC/ACC really.

Good. Some people from the CxA forums would insist Cloud was just another child or a rebellious teenager as far as his role went. Good to see you aren't among their number.

I view a discussion as merely exchanging opinions. Debate however, is influencing the other and proving your side. I’ve been in many so I should know how not to make things a debate.

Again, very little effective difference.

liulu said:
But Aerith and Cloud are also in the pages in the Gold Soucer, dont they ?????

They do, but consider that their date contains Aerith trying to confess something to Cloud and him just not getting it, and that the text below the picture shown discusses the outcome of the date minigame rather than the content of the scene shown, unlike the Highwind picture and the other pictures on the page.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
But default doesn't mean canon. Nor does player choice. Only what is canon is canon.

The canon of the story seems to support the CxA date above all others, though, with them actually agreeing on a date when they first meet. Arguably it's also the date with the most plot importance. Sure, everyone has their own "canon" of what happened at the Gold Saucer, buuuut it's fairly obvious when playing the game the CxA date is pushed most for a reason. :monster:

Good. Some people from the CxA forums would insist Cloud was just another child or a rebellious teenager as far as his role went.

Errrrr, wasn't there a rule about not bringing up any other forums?
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
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Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
The canon of the story seems to support the CxA date above all others, though, with them actually agreeing on a date when they first meet. Arguably it's also the date with the most plot importance. Sure, everyone has their own "canon" of what happened at the Gold Saucer, buuuut it's fairly obvious when playing the game the CxA date is pushed most for a reason. :monster:
Indeed. The Aerith date and the HA highwind scene seem to be the most supported by canon.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
The canon of the story seems to support the CxA date above all others, though, with them actually agreeing on a date when they first meet. Arguably it's also the date with the most plot importance. Sure, everyone has their own "canon" of what happened at the Gold Saucer, buuuut it's fairly obvious when playing the game the CxA date is pushed most for a reason. :monster:

But that's a narrative argument, not a 'it's default' argument.

Errrrr, wasn't there a rule about not bringing up any other forums?

That regards squabbles between members, not as a reference of arguments and opinions held. I could alter that to reference Clerith.com instead of the forums, but it references the same set of people.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
That regards squabbles between members, not as a reference of arguments and opinions held. I could alter that to reference Clerith.com instead of the forums, but it references the same set of people.
Dacon said:
If you try and use past events as a weapon against people, you will be banned
I still feel like bringing up that sort of thing isn't allowed in here. :\
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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Tim, Ryu
I still feel like bringing up that sort of thing isn't allowed in here. :\

I haven't checked recently, but I think that argument is still displayed on the site. In any case, it's certainly not being used against anyone here.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
But you basically insulted members from CxA or at least brought it up for no reason whatsoever. I thought we were trying to stop that kind of thing.

Aaron on the first page said:
One last thing which wasn't made explicit in the OP, but I feel deserves to be made explicit just so no one can say they had no idea they were breaking a rule: The Lifestream has an explicit rule against bringing discussions here from other boards. In other words, what happens at YouTube stays at YouTube. What happens on FinalFantasyForums.net stays on FinalFantasyForums.net. What happens at CxA stays at CxA. Period.

And I don't think Dismantled says "Nothing was shared that night" just that it's candid and ends short.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
But you basically insulted members from CxA or at least brought it up for no reason whatsoever. I thought we were trying to stop that kind of thing.

If you want to know the context, then please read the responses on the front page of the article.
How is bringing up that they hold a position insulting them, exactly? Seriously, are we that much on eggshells now?

And I don't think Dismantled says "Nothing was shared that night" just that it's candid and ends short.

You sure about that? I thought it was 'lacking in substance' or words to that effect.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
If you want to know the context, then please read the responses on the front page of the article.
How is bringing up that they hold a position insulting them, exactly? Seriously, are we that much on eggshells now?

Because you shouldn't bring up what they think at all. That's what one of the rules is. Maybe it's not an insult so much but it's breaking the rules that this thread has set forth. If I had done that, Dacon would be on my ass in less than a second.

You sure about that? I thought it was 'lacking in substance' or words to that effect.
Actually the only thing Dismantled says about the Highwind scene is:

Changeable event3 (before the final battle)
Another event is after the party was dismissed and everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.
At that moment, according to Tifa’s affectional rating for Cloud, the event of “dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn” and “Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance” will be different.

Caption:
1. An example of her reaction—facing backwards and tapping the floor with one leg.
2. If the rating is higher, she will feel very embarrassed and also crouches down.
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
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Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
Indeed. The Aerith date and the HA highwind scene seem to be the most supported by canon.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Tifa's date was cute and all but significance to plot doesn't really exist. Plus, Aerith's death was just around the corner so getting her date just seems so fitting. It adds to her character, players get attached and we're led to believe that her and Cloud definitely have a future together. And then she dies. It just makes it all the more tragic and fuels the fight against Sephiroth.

At least, that's how I see it. :P
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I think it should be okay to talk about arguments you've seen elsewhere as long as you don't name names personally. Like instead of "Oh the people on CxA say this." say "I've seen some argue that..."

I mean would that work? If people want to breath life back into this thread that's the only way it's going to happen
 
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