The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Geostigma]

In a passage outlining Tifa's jealously towards Cloud's relationship with her love rival, Aerith, SE mentions Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and that Tifa's problem isn't just that Cloud is dragging around the past, but that the reason might be related to Aerith, in particular.

Why does SE do that?

Because you are lying.

 

[Knuxson]

In a passage outlining Tifa's jealously towards Cloud's relationship with her love rival, Aerith, SE mentions Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and that Tifa's problem isn't just that Cloud is dragging around the past, but that the reason might be related to Aerith, in particular.

Why does SE do that?

You know, you actually make a good point here since the Ultimania quote for Tifa does imply that she is worried Cloud still harbors feelings for Aerith. However, while Tifa may have feared this, it doesn't mean Cloud actually felt this way.

On Cloud's Ultimania profile page, it says, "when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality." And "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud." And "With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward."

And on Aerith's Ultimania page it says, "Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid. In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world." - Not a symbol of everlasting love, but of failure to save people dear to him.

While the Ultimania page for Tifa suggests she was jealous that Cloud chose to stay at the church, both Cloud and Aerith's pages say nothing about Cloud still harboring feelings for Aerith. All three pages do, however, discuss how Cloud's guilt is keeping him from moving forward and being with his family. But he does, in fact, forgive himself and move forward. Also, you have to remember that upon walking into the church and seeing that Cloud is staying there, Tifa still does not understand why Cloud left. So the quote from the Ultimania may just be pointing out her initial reaction to seeing that Cloud was staying there, and not that Cloud actually felt that way.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Even Tifa doesn't believe Cloud's smile.

Tifa is an insecure person dealing with the poor reactions of another insecure person. Of course she's having doubts here, Cloud just did something very stupid and ran out on her and the kids. Sure, those of us who paid attention know his reasons were understandable, but still a dumbass method of dealing with his angst. Either way, they got over it later.

I'm simply saying that their living arrangements and the family formed was not from a romantic place.

And I'm saying your argument is full of crap. Let's look at the rest of your post and I'll tell ya why.

Where does Barret say he believes his kid is better off being raised by Cloud and Tifa?

You know, I don't think he actually does SAY as such outright. But A.) it connects well with the end of the Dyne encounter way back in the OG, and B.) he left her with them, didn't he?

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene decided to form a family together.

This is before a family was actually formed. You quote the bit where the family actually forms right after this, and yet attribute the birth of said family to this passage. Either you're actually convinced you're correct here, which is sorta sad, or you're being dishonest, which is also sad but in a hilarious way. One or the other, though, this is the lead in to the family being created, not the actual birth of such. No decision to form a family has been made here.

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

Barret tells Marlene to unite the families strength while he is gone, the family that he helped create in the passage I provided above.

I'll grant you he had a hand in creating the family. His leaving to go do other stuff and leaving Marlene with Cloud and Tifa, that creates the circumstances under which the family initially forms. He's still leaving, he's still not a part of the fully formed family we see once Denzel is added to the mix, and you're still proving nothing with all this.

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

Marlene puts Cloud in the family that includes her Father, Barret. If this is Cloud's family, why did Marlene do the inviting? Shouldn't Cloud have invited Marlene into *HIS* family?

Awww look, they just became family and already Marlene and Cloud have a cute little familial in-joke. Like families tend to get. That's the joke, BB, that Marlene, the child, is the one putting Cloud into the family. That's why its cute and funny and all the things Marlene tends to be (Cloud's deadpan reaction sells it of course). And no, the family does not include Barret. You can say this all you want, you'll get shot down again and again until we finally wise up and let you talk to yourself from then on.

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

Yes. That's what it says. That's what I am trying to tell you. BARRET LEFT. The three of them, which is one less than we'd need to include Barret, began living together after Barret set off on his atonement journey. Barret is excluded.

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

He doesn't live with them. He's not part of the 7th Heaven family. As of the Bahamut SIN fight, Denzel doesn't even know who the fuck this guy is. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? And how do you think the above helps you? It doesn't, unless you live in bizarro land. It says pretty well exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along here.

Why are Cloti's insistent on making Marlene apart of two families?

For one, we didn't make her a part of anything. The creators did. Better question to send back your way, why are you so insistent that she's not? IF Barret were part of the family... in what way does that invalidate any of our points? How is "Barret is a member of Cloud's family!" a boon for Clerith? Cause personally, idfgi. It doesn't much matter if he is or isn't, tbqh, I'm only arguing because... well, someone is wrong on the internet And that someone is you, BB.

It is clear that they all formed ONE family in Edge.

Clear to all those who want desperately to see it that way for poorly understood reasons, sure.

Marlene invites CLoud into HER family (her family includes Barret).

Her exact words, if I recall, were "our family" in reference to herself and Tifa. Marlene's family includes Barret. Cloud's and Tifa's, despite including Marlene, does not. This isn't tough to grasp if you take off the blindfold, pull your fingers out of your ears, and stop chanting "lalala" constantly.

Furthermore, Barret tells Marlene to unite the families strength while he is gone -- which means that when he comes back, he will be able to help unite the families strength -- the family that he helped create in Edge.

Again, agreed he helped to create the family. He mentions the word before it seems to occur to Cloud or Tifa, he sets up the circumstances wherein "their" first child comes into the picture, etc. He still ain't a member. He still hasn't even met Denzel before AC/C.

And, once again, let's say you convinced me that all that was true. That Barret is indeed part of the family at 7th Heaven, and so on. Answer me honestly, no bullshit... how does this help you, or hinder Cloti? How does it change, quite frankly, anything?

In anticipation of bullshit answers and intellectual dishonesty, let me go ahead and answer for you: It doesn't change jack or shit.

If Cloud is wavering between two heroines, and one of those heroines is Aerith, how can someone say Cloud's "special bond" with Aerith is limited to that of a friendship?

Neither of them ever confessed any feelings for the other. No actual romance occurred between them before Aerith died. Whoever felt what for whoever else, anyone with a crush was friendzoned by default, ergo friendship.

Ugh. I've already explained this multiple times.

Well shit, I don't doubt THAT, do you guys? Albeit "explained" might not be exactly the right word.

This gives us insight into how SE views Cloud and Aerith. If there were no basis of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII, why does SE continue to portray them as a romantic couple?

You know what else gives us insight into how SE views and portrays Cloud and Aerith? Or Cloud and Tifa, for that matter? The actual, canonical media they appear in. Little thing called the Compilation, maybe you heard of it? The OG, the movie, the novellas and novel, the other games? As well as the Ultimanias, the creator quotes (once properly translated, which can be tricky), etc. That all trumps the fuck out of Kingdom Hearts, cameo appearance, non-canon bullshit like the fucking Emperor/Empress thing you so love to harp on about. It means nothing, as far as I can see, beyond "SE is whoring out the main characters of VII for cheap money." Any meaning beyond that is entirely placed there by people who desperately want meaning to be there.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Dear me, a few pages back but I'll bite.

You are correct. Cloud Strife is a man who finds it hard to make connections.

That's why Cloud being able to laugh with Aerith so quickly shows that Cloud and Aerith did, in fact, have a "special bond".

Aeris had - as pointed out throughout the compilation a special bond with all of them. She touched them all. She was that kind of charming person. It's why they all wear ribbons.

You automatically presume special bond means love, because you want it to. Cloud and Aeris dynamic was special, but there's little rationale for love. He was sick. Ill in the head. She was still mourning the loss of Zack, who Cloud reminded her of.

That's not to say they didn't have a bond. The very nature of their pain created a bond, as did the need for protection and the need to protect, and of course, Aeris is meant to be a charming girl everyone can't help but adore. Their situation was unique, it was special. Hell, in another world, they could perhaps have love. After all, Cloud wanted to be a person like Zack and Aeries likes guys like Zack.

The bottomline, and you'll hate to hear it, the special bond you desire is in F7 for Aeries, but its with Zack. To try and force it on Cloud, diminishes the subtlety of their story and Zack's importance - which is bookended in AC as it is in Crisis Core.

That's also why the fact that Cloud was willing to risk his life to save a girl he had just met was so significant -- significant enough for Barret to make an observation about it.

You again are dreaming Barret's astute and seeing Cloud in buckets of love and is telling the audience. Barret is noting for a tough mercenary, he suddenly seems very soft. And Cloud is soft. He wants to protect people. That's his core nature. Now you can read that if you want as Cloud being so enamored with Aeris he saved a girl he'd just met, but by that definition you infer Cloud would ignore a guy he'd never met and let him die. You think that's in Cloud's personality? No. He wants to help, he wants to protect. He saved Aeries, as he saved Tifa, as he'd have gone to save any of them. Barret's noting Cloud is not the character he is pretending to be.

Cloud and Aerith had a "special bond" that caused Cloud to do things and act in ways that were very uncharacteristic of him. That's why Tifa gets jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship -- she wishes she could bring out the side of Cloud that Aerith was able to bring to the surface.

Aeris is charming, and he cares for her. Tifa is jealous. I'm not trying to diminish that. I just feel you're twisting Cloud's situation to suit an argument.

She in a sense helps Cloud get closer to his true personality and away from the lonely mercenary, that's her, I agree. She's nice. Practical, and doesn't buy any of the mercenary crap Barret does. I just hope when you hold up the "who helps Cloud the most" card, you look to Tifa in the Lifestream, as she is the only one who can help Cloud there because she is part of the pain he is suffering - but even that isn't long term. She helps him find his true self. Clouds only TRULY healed when he's forgiven by all of them - Tifa, Aeris, Zack, Marlene etc.

If the real Cloud continues to care for and think about Aerith (based on the interactions they had when he was messed up) it is irrelevant that he was messed up when he was interacting with Aerith.

That's guilt. He cares, she was his friend. He was her guardian. He failed her, in fact, he was a puppet to those who murdered her. She died. Would you find that easy to let go of?

Again, my main point holds true: Cloud was ill when he knew Aeris. Very ill. Aeris was still mourning the loss of Zack who vanished. That's not ingredients for love. That's why this isn't a love scenario. They cared for each other, supported each other, unknowing each other's pain - but they all did as a team. Cloud's part becomes greater because of Cloud himself: he took on particular ownership of the role to keep her safe and therefore suffers the anguish greatest at her death.

 

[Shadowfox]

Tifa seems insistent on inserting herself in Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Just as Cloud says that HE can meet Aerith in the Promised Land, Cloud visits Aerith's Church alone, without Tifa.

Ironically, Tifa tries to insert herself in the middle of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in both scenes. Tifa tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to the Promised Land to meet Aerith, and she tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to visit Aerith's Church. But it is clear that Cloud wants to do neither of these things with Tifa. No wonder Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud's feelings toward Aerith.

So after everything that's happened in the Compilation, the storylines, and the character development -- most particularly Tifa's and Cloud's -- what you actually came away with is that Tifa is a selfish person who repeatedly inserts herself in Cloud's business, unwanted?

What does that make Cloud, then? You're painting him as a guy who can stand up to the most dangerous, world destroying forces, but is unable to stand up to one woman who insists on butting in on his love life. That all he can do is to simply run away from her to covertly seek comfort in a dead woman's presence... and yet he'll still come back to stay with the selfish woman anyway because of... some reasons whatever they may be?

Your interpretation doesn't even paint Clerith in a good light, because it reduces that pairing into a dirty little secret, one that Cloud isn't able or willing to stand up for.

 

[BlankBeat]

You know, you actually make a good point here since the Ultimania quote for Tifa does imply that she is worried Cloud still harbors feelings for Aerith. However, while Tifa may have feared this, it doesn't mean Cloud actually felt this way.

I'm not saying Tifa's observation proves the Clerith point-of-view, I'm simply saying that Tifa's observation lends support to the Clerith point-of-view.

But do Cloti's honestly believe Tifa has horrible perception skills?

On Cloud's Ultimania profile page, it says, "when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality." And "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud." And "With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward."

And on Aerith's Ultimania page it says, "Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid. In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world." - Not a symbol of everlasting love, but of failure to save people dear to him.

You point out that Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's failure to save people that were dear to him. Why was Aerith dear to him? I'd say it was their "special bond" that was not just a bond of friendship, but a bond of romance.

--------------------

Dear me, a few pages back but I'll bite.

Aeris had - as pointed out throughout the compilation a special bond with all of them. She touched them all. She was that kind of charming person. It's why they all wear ribbons.

But why does SE point out Cloud and Aerith's special bond in comparison to Cloud's other love rival, Tifa?

You automatically presume special bond means love, because you want it to. Cloud and Aeris dynamic was special, but there's little rationale for love. He was sick. Ill in the head. She was still mourning the loss of Zack, who Cloud reminded her of.

The rationale for love is this: Cloud found Aerith physically attractive. Cloud agreed to go on a date with Aerith. Cloud thought Aerith was funny. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith. Cloud told Marlene he hoped Aerith liked him. Cloud flirted with Aerith in-front of Tifa. Cloud was willing to risk his life to save Aerith, a girl he had just met. Cloud went on a romantic date with Aerith in Golden Saucer.

Cloud and Aerith did things that Cloud did not do with any other character. These things that Cloud and Aerith did together tell us that Cloud's "special bond" with Aerith is not the same as Aerith's "special bond" with the other characters because Cloud and Aerith shared a bond that was more than just platonic, it was romantic.

The bottomline, and you'll hate to hear it, the special bond you desire is in F7 for Aeries, but its with Zack. To try and force it on Cloud, diminishes the subtlety of their story and Zack's importance - which is bookended in AC as it is in Crisis Core.

Not true: "I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

You again are dreaming Barret's astute and seeing Cloud in buckets of love and is telling the audience. Barret is noting for a tough mercenary, he suddenly seems very soft. And Cloud is soft. He wants to protect people. That's his core nature. Now you can read that if you want as Cloud being so enamored with Aeris he saved a girl he'd just met, but by that definition you infer Cloud would ignore a guy he'd never met and let him die. You think that's in Cloud's personality? No. He wants to help, he wants to protect. He saved Aeries, as he saved Tifa, as he'd have gone to save any of them. Barret's noting Cloud is not the character he is pretending to be.

Barret observes that it is Aerith, and only Aerith, that is able to bring out the real!Cloud while he was profoundly messed up in multiple ways. That's pretty impressive that Aerith could do that.

That's guilt. He cares, she was his friend. He was her guardian. He failed her, in fact, he was a puppet to those who murdered her. She died. Would you find that easy to let go of?

Again, my main point holds true: Cloud was ill when he knew Aeris. Very ill. Aeris was still mourning the loss of Zack who vanished. That's not ingredients for love. That's why this isn't a love scenario. They cared for each other, supported each other, unknowing each other's pain - but they all did as a team. Cloud's part becomes greater because of Cloud himself: he took on particular ownership of the role to keep her safe and therefore suffers the anguish greatest at her death.

1. The "wavers" quote proves that Aerith was more than just a friend to Cloud. Therefore, Cloud's guilt is caused not just because of their friendship, but also because of the romantic connection him and Aerith had.

2. If the real!Cloud continues to feel strong feelings for Aerith based on the interactions they had while he was messed up, it is irrelevant that Cloud was messed when he interacted with Aerith.

3. Aerith has said that she loves Cloud more than Zack.

--------------------

Tifa is an insecure person dealing with the poor reactions of another insecure person.

I see that you, also, believe Tifa has horrible perception skills and is an irrational woman running only on emotion, not logic.

You know, I don't think he actually does SAY as such outright. But A.) it connects well with the end of the Dyne encounter way back in the OG, and B.) he left her with them, didn't he?

I'm glad you admit that you have no proof of Barret saying he believes Cloud and Tifa will raise Marlene better than himself. Personally, I think it breaks Barret's heart that he has to leave Marlene in the care of Cloud and Tifa.

Either you're actually convinced you're correct here, which is sorta sad, or you're being dishonest, which is also sad but in a hilarious way. One or the other, though, this is the lead in to the family being created, not the actual birth of such. No decision to form a family has been made here.

OK -- so it's the lead in to the family being created. I don't really care what you want to call it. My overall point still stands: Barret was apart of creating and forming this family.

I'll grant you he had a hand in creating the family. His leaving to go do other stuff and leaving Marlene with Cloud and Tifa, that creates the circumstances under which the family initially forms. He's still leaving, he's still not a part of the fully formed family we see once Denzel is added to the mix, and you're still proving nothing with all this.

If you agree that Barret was apart of creating the family, how does leaving mean he is removed from the family? Does he stop being Marlene's Father when he leaves? To put it another way, does a Father who goes away on business cease to be apart of his family?

And my point is that by Barret being included in the formation of the family, the family was not created from a romantic place (like most families are). This is why I have a problem when Cloti's try to use the formation of this family to support their ship.

Awww look, they just became family and already Marlene and Cloud have a cute little familial in-joke. Like families tend to get. That's the joke, BB, that Marlene, the child, is the one putting Cloud into the family. That's why its cute and funny and all the things Marlene tends to be (Cloud's deadpan reaction sells it of course). And no, the family does not include Barret. You can say this all you want, you'll get shot down again and again until we finally wise up and let you talk to yourself from then on.

And after Marlene invites Cloud into her family, Cloud and Tifa are perplexed at the idea of being called a family. Cloud and Tifa's reaction to being called a family is very telling.

Yes. That's what it says. That's what I am trying to tell you. BARRET LEFT. The three of them, which is one less than we'd need to include Barret, began living together after Barret set off on his atonement journey. Barret is excluded.

The three of them began LIVING together as a family. That doesn't mean Barret isn't apart of the family, it simply means he isn't living with them at the moment.

how does this help you, or hinder Cloti? How does it change, quite frankly, anything?

When Cloti's use this family to prove their ship they are making it seem as though this family was created from Cloud and Tifa's romantic feelings. But because Barret was included in the formation and creation of this family, the creation of this family does not support Cloti at all.

Neither of them ever confessed any feelings for the other. No actual romance occurred between them before Aerith died. Whoever felt what for whoever else, anyone with a crush was friendzoned by default, ergo friendship.

Cloud can still have romantic feelings for Aerith even if they never expressed them to each other. The question is not which couple expressed mutual feelings, the question is simply, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

You know what else gives us insight into how SE views and portrays Cloud and Aerith? Or Cloud and Tifa, for that matter? The actual, canonical media they appear in. Little thing called the Compilation, maybe you heard of it? The OG, the movie, the novellas and novel, the other games? As well as the Ultimanias, the creator quotes (once properly translated, which can be tricky), etc. That all trumps the fuck out of Kingdom Hearts, cameo appearance, non-canon bullshit like the fucking Emperor/Empress thing you so love to harp on about. It means nothing, as far as I can see, beyond "SE is whoring out the main characters of VII for cheap money." Any meaning beyond that is entirely placed there by people who desperately want meaning to be there.

Scream and cry all you want, but the fact remains that SE has portrayed Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple because there is evidence of a romantic connection between them in FFVII.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Fuck it, I'm out. BB, you've just managed to twist my words into interesting new shapes, ignore the meaning behind most of what I said, ignore the fact that the family thing is but one tiny facet of the canonical whole that is Cloti, AND insist that I've in some way denied Cloud and Aerith having feelings for each other when I did no such thing (I have said, directly and succinctly, that whether they did or not is irrelevant because NOTHING CAME OF IT, not that no such feeling existed). On top of that, you accuse me of screaming and crying in your last bit there, while referring to blatant bullshit you're essentially pulling directly out of your ass. See a proctologist, you've gotta e badly backed up to still have anything to yank out of there after so long.

But yeah, I'm done. Should have taken my own advice the first time, or followed Tres' example when he told you to fuck off some time back.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This isn't necessarily directed at BlankBeat. Anyone feel free to reply. I'm just sorting through my thoughts.

I'm more willing than most here to accept the Emperor/Empress thing as a subtle nod to the potential romance Cloud and Aerith could have had, but I can't buy that "this is how Square sees them" was the only intention when the release of the Hinamatsuri holiday specials was accompanied by the "school days" Tifa and Zack specials in reference to the start of the school year.

If "this is how Square sees them" applies to one set, then what are they saying about the other? To make the first into some definitive romantic statement requires either applying an inconsistent logic where the other set is concerned or ignoring it outright -- neither of which makes for a sound approach.

The only consistent logic you can bring to the whole thing is that the main characters of FFVII got the Emperor and Empress roles while the secondary characters got the shaft.

Does anyone feel differently? If so, why?

And, BlankBeat, should you decide to respond to this question, please don't copy-paste "the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship" posts you've already made to me before. I'm asking an honest question about why one themed set would be an exception when they were released together.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Certain someone's actually take the Zack and Tifa school uniform seriously and insist that Square ships Fack. Saying stuff like everything Tifa dreams of and falls in love with is actually Zack.

I honestly think it's a main hero and heroine nod, especially that Zack and Tifa gets the same outfit since they're just supporting ones. Even if Square does have romantic intentions in the outfit, it doesn't reduce Cloud's feelings for Tifa.

 

[Dashell]

So after everything that's happened in the Compilation, the storylines, and the character development -- most particularly Tifa's and Cloud's -- what you actually came away with is that Tifa is a selfish person who repeatedly inserts herself in Cloud's business, unwanted?

What does that make Cloud, then? You're painting him as a guy who can stand up to the most dangerous, world destroying forces, but is unable to stand up to one woman who insists on butting in on his love life. That all he can do is to simply run away from her to covertly seek comfort in a dead woman's presence... and yet he'll still come back to stay with the selfish woman anyway because of... some reasons whatever they may be?

Your interpretation doesn't even paint Clerith in a good light, because it reduces that pairing into a dirty little secret, one that Cloud isn't able or willing to stand up for.

I know, why doesn't Cloud just tell Tifa to fuck off?

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

^^ The thing is that round about the same time they also released the Rinoa white wedding dress cameo as well.

Tres, I thought you weren't doing this anymore

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not debating anything. I just wanted to hear thoughts.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm not saying Tifa's observation proves the Clerith point-of-view, I'm simply saying that Tifa's observation lends support to the Clerith point-of-view.

But do Cloti's honestly believe Tifa has horrible perception skills?

For the sake of arguments, I feel the need to explain why this is flawed Blankbeat.

Tifa is in love with Cloud. It's perfectly normal for a person in love to get threatened by rivals, to have unrealistic expectations, to make irrational observations. It's not about having horrible perception skills, it's about the natural tendency of jealousy.

Tifa, who is in love with Cloud, has a perspective similar to the fresh audience who have no knowledge of Ultimania quotes or Clerith essay. The audience thinking Cloud loves Aerith is not enough to prove such love exist, the same way the opinion of an audience in itself is not proof of canon (example is slash shipping.) Tifa's jealousy only proves that Aerith is a threat to her, it doesn't prove that Cloud has actual feelings for Aerith.

Clotis do not believe that Tifa has horrible perception skills, that's a condensing argument and a strawman. It has always been a core Cloti argument that Tifa knows something is wrong with Cloud, she knows him all too well and supports him.

Tifa knowing Cloud all too well also doesn't prove that Cloud's feeling for Aerith is romantic in nature. People get jealous all the time from reasons unrelated to romance, even if the person is a past love rival.

 

[BlankBeat]

For the sake of arguments, I feel the need to explain why this is flawed Blankbeat.

Tifa is in love with Cloud. It's perfectly normal for a person in love to get threatened by rivals, to have unrealistic expectations, to make irrational observations. It's not about having horrible perception skills, it's about the natural tendency of jealousy.

Tifa, who is in love with Cloud, has a perspective similar to the fresh audience who have no knowledge of Ultimania quotes or Clerith essay. The audience thinking Cloud loves Aerith is not enough to prove such love exist, the same way the opinion of an audience in itself is not proof of canon (example is slash shipping.) Tifa's jealousy only proves that Aerith is a threat to her, it doesn't prove that Cloud has actual feelings for Aerith.

Clotis do not believe that Tifa has horrible perception skills, that's a condensing argument and a strawman. It has always been a core Cloti argument that Tifa knows something is wrong with Cloud, she knows him all too well and supports him.

Tifa knowing Cloud all too well also doesn't prove that Cloud's feeling for Aerith is romantic in nature. People get jealous all the time from reasons unrelated to romance, even if the person is a past love rival.

But Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because...

Cloud thinks Aerith is physically attractive.
Cloud finds Aerith's personality attractive.
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.
Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith.
Cloud is triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith.
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met, a woman who he is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who he expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because there *IS* evidence that Cloud is romantically attracted to Aerith. The "wavers" quote alone proves this.

The fact is, Cloud decided to have a flirtatious back-and-forth with Aerith in-front of Tifa. Tifa gets jealous about it, partly because she sees what us Clerith's also see -- Cloud and Aerith started developing their own "world" together that was different than the world Tifa had with Cloud. The world Cloud and Aerith have with each other is more than just friendship. It only takes common sense to see that.

 

[Danseru-kun]

But Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because...

Cloud thinks Aerith is physically attractive.
Cloud finds Aerith's personality attractive.
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.
Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith.
Cloud is triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith.
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met, a woman who he is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who he expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

Tifa thinks Aerith is physically attractive
Tifa finds Aerith's personality attractive
Tifa is a psychic who knows the convo with Marlene
Tifa knows Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith (let's pretend the fact that he tried to escape from her house didn't happen, or that let us just say the Clerith date is canon)
Tifa is a mutant who knows Cloud has a flashback with his mother (nope sorry I can't find it romantic, it's incest)
Tifa is willing to risk her life to save a woman she just met, a woman who is she thinks Cloud is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who she magically know that Cloud expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because there *IS* evidence that Cloud is romantically attracted to Aerith. The "wavers" quote alone proves this.

The fact is, Cloud decided to have a flirtatious back-and-forth with Aerith in-front of Tifa. Tifa gets jealous about it, partly because she sees what us Clerith's also see -- Cloud and Aerith started developing their own "world" together that was different than the world Tifa had with Cloud. The world Cloud and Aerith have with each other is more than just friendship. It only takes common sense to see that.

You are saying that people who do not see romance in Clerith have no common sense. A logical fallacy.

Correlation is not causation. Tifa's has no knowledge of any Ultimania quote or scenes that doesn't have her. You're using her POV to justify your Clerith POV. Tifa is not a Clerith, she's a Cloti being threatened by Clerith. She wants her ship to be canon but she's having doubts as she knows Clerith has something. Clotis being threatened by Clerith doesn't make Clerith canon, and Cleriths thinking Cloti is canon doesn't make Cloti canon. Understand now?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Do we have a macro of someone eating popcorn?

What strikes me as someone who prefers friendship relationships in literature as opposed to romantic ones, is that Cloud/Aerith is a deep friendship that might have developed into romance whereas Cloud/Tifa has always had romatic elements from the get-go. Cloud has always been interested in Tifa as a romantic interest, while Aerith was a former business prospect that could have been developing into a romance.

Cloud is the one who searches out Tifa because he likes her, and Tifa reveals that she started being interested in him as well when they were kids. They both admitted to themselves and each other that they were interested.

In Cloud/Aeirth, the only party that admits they are interested in the other romantically is Aeirth. Cloud never admits that, not even to himself.

Now this is better then the spoiler tag!

 

[Dashell]

Cloud thinks Aerith is physically attractive.
Cloud finds Aerith's personality attractive.
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.
Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith.
Cloud is triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith.
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met, a woman who he is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who he expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

How does Tifa know about any of this save the risking his life and the agreement on the date?

 

[Knuxson]

You point out that Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's failure to save people that were dear to him. Why was Aerith dear to him? I'd say it was their "special bond" that was not just a bond of friendship, but a bond of romance.

--------------------

You know , I wondered if I should include the "dear to him" part of the quote because I knew you would latch onto it, but that is what it says so I didn't want to distort it. However, it says PEOPLE that were dear to him. Plural. Not just Aerith. All his friends are dear to him. It doesn't matter whether you want it to be a bond of romance because it wasn't and nothing supports that it was. Cloud NEVER overtly expresses love for Aerith, despite being attracted to her on disc 1, but in the lifestream he expresses his love for Tifa. He tells her he was in love with her his whole life. You don't get much more clear cut than that. You can't deny he didn't express deep feelings for Tifa that defines his whole life. Plus it occurs at a point of the narrative where it makes total sense to reveal Cloud's real love.

 

[BlankBeat]

In Cloud/Aeirth, the only party that admits they are interested in the other romantically is Aeirth. Cloud never admits that, not even to himself.

But Cloud admits his interest in Aerith to Marlene. Even Marlene, being a young child, knows what Cloud meant when he said he "hopes" Aerith likes him -- which is why Marlene says in response, "I won't tell Tifa."

So now we have Barret, Tifa, AND Marlene all noticing that Cloud seems to have a special something for Aerith. Why is it that Cloti's can't admit what seems so obvious to Marlene, Tifa, and Barret?

--------------------

Tifa thinks Aerith is physically attractive
Tifa finds Aerith's personality attractive
Tifa is a psychic who knows the convo with Marlene
Tifa knows Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith (let's pretend the fact that he tried to escape from her house didn't happen, or that let us just say the Clerith date is canon)
Tifa is a mutant who knows Cloud has a flashback with his mother (nope sorry I can't find it romantic, it's incest)
Tifa is willing to risk her life to save a woman she just met, a woman who is she thinks Cloud is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who she magically know that Cloud expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

You missed my point entirely.

You are trying to make it seem as though Tifa's perception of Cloud and Aerith's relationship is only Tifa's perception, not reality. But the fact is, her perception of things *IS* reality. So I'd argue that Tifa has great perception skills because despite not knowing all of what I outlined, she was still able to see the romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith in the Shinra jail cells.

Tifa's has no knowledge of any Ultimania quote or scenes that doesn't have her.

And yet Tifa was still able to see what all of those Ultimania's and scenes prove -- Cloud is romantically interested in Aerith.

You're using her POV to justify your Clerith POV.

Based on what we know, I'm saying that Tifa's POV is not based in jealous delusion, but in jealous reality. Tifa's POV simply lends support to the Clerith POV because she is able to observe what us Clerith's have observed all along -- Cloud likes Aerith romantically.

Based on what we know, do you honestly think Tifa's jealousy was unfounded!?!?!?!?

--------------------

You know , I wondered if I should include the "dear to him" part of the quote because I knew you would latch onto it, but that is what it says so I didn't want to distort it. However, it says PEOPLE that were dear to him. Plural. Not just Aerith. All his friends are dear to him.

And all of Cloud's friends are dear to him in different ways and for different reasons. The way in which Aerith is dear to him is romantic, not platonic.

 

[Farron]

I don't know why I'm doing this.

Cloud thinks Aerith is physically attractive.

You can find somebody physically attractive and not have a crush or romantic emotions for them. Example

Take a look at Armin Arlelt isn't he cute ? I don't love him, have a crush on him or want to have a romantic relationship with him though unlike other Fictional characters.

Cloud finds Aerith's personality attractive.

Again I love Armin's cuteness, intelligence, courage and bravery. Again no romantic crush.

Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

Optional. You can tell Marlene something else which causes Marlene to get really fucked off at Cloud.

Cloud agrees and eventually goes on a date with Aerith.

Yes but it wasn't really romantic or passionate or anything.

Aerith- This is nice, but I have no idea who you really are. You remind me of Zack and that sort of concerns me. I don't think that you are being honest with your true identity somewhat.

Cloud- What the fuck are you talking about ?

Aerith- Nevermind.

Date basically ends.

Cloud is triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith.

The flashback with the Mum ? That's not really romantic. That Cloud's Mum telling Cloud that he should date a older woman because she'll be able to take care of him easily and it ends with Cloud saying that he's not interested. The age difference between Aeris and Cloud most likely triggered the flashback.

Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met, a woman who he is attracted to both personality-wise and physically, and a woman who he expressed interest in during a conversation with Marlene.

Cloud is not a douchebag he may of had some douchebag like behavior during the first disc but he wasn't a complete ass-douche. Cloud went all that way to protect Aerith from danger because him just leaving her there would be disgusting on Cloud's part. Again, optional.

Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality because there *IS* evidence that Cloud is romantically attracted to Aerith.

Nope. Cloud just thinks that she's very beautiful and has a nice personality. Nothing romantic.

 

[BlankBeat]

Just to reiterate from my last post:

The argument seems to be that because Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings, it somehow canonizes them over Cloud x Aerith. But just because Cloud and Aerith never express mutual feelings, doesn't mean they didn't have mutual feelings.

One of the posters on here said that Cloud never admits he is romantically interested in Aerith. But I would seriously like to draw attention to this fact -- Cloud expresses his romantic interest in Aerith to Marlene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let’s hope so."
Marlene: "I won’t tell Tifa."

Even Marlene is able to decipher what Cloud meant by that because she says, "I won't tell Tifa".

Therefore, EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE THIS ADMISSION: (Cloud thinking Aerith's eyes were "impressive", that her smile was a "good purchase", agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of a date, having a romantic flashback) AND EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AFER THIS ADMISSION: (Cloud willing to risk his life to save Aerith, Barret's observation that Aerith is the first person Cloud seems to be willing to fight for besides himself, Cloud flirting with Aerith in the Shinra jail cells, Cloud telling Aerith he is there for her in Cosmo Canyon, and the date in Golden Saucer) ARE ALL CONNECTED TO CLOUD'S ROMANTIC FEELINGS FOR AERITH.

Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that was "different" from Tifa's was romantic in nature. And the reason Cloud continues to feel failure/guilt over letting Aerith die, a person that is dear to him, is because she was dear to him not just platonically, but also romantically.

Cloud and Aerith *DID* express romantic interest in each other. Just because they never expressed these feelings to each other doesn't make them any less relevant or valid. Clerith is every bit as canon as Cloti. Period.

 

[Farron]

I think I pissed BB off i didn't mean too

runs away from thread as quickly as possible

but

Marlene
"Guess what? Guess what? Aerith was asking me lots of questions."
"Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

<CHOICE>
I don't know
Let's hope so

***Cloud
I don't know

Marlene
"Stupid!"

***Cloud
Let's hope so

Marlene
"I won't tell Tifa."
<//>

(Cloud goes to leave.)

bye every1 i hide now

 

[Octo]

Re the flashback thing. It's always struck me as weird, it's for the benefit of the player but it assumes youve read the manual and know their ages. Also, in universe - how would Cloud even know she was older? It's only a years difference, not something you could tell by looking.

 

[BlankBeat]

You can find somebody physically attractive and not have a crush or romantic emotions for them. Example

By showing Cloud was physically attracted to Aerith, I'm showing that it was the beginning of what led Cloud to having romantic feelings for Aerith. In other words, Cloud's physical attraction to Aerith laid the foundation for what was to take place after -- same with Cloud's attraction to Aerith's personality. It was the basis for which these romantic feelings grew.

Optional. You can tell Marlene something else which causes Marlene to get really fucked off at Cloud.

The version I'm using is the *canon* version.

&#8220;Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she&#8217;s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says &#8220;I won&#8217;t tell Tifa!&#8221; demonstrates this grownup behavior.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:
Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let&#8217;s hope so."
Marlene: "I won&#8217;t tell Tifa."

Yes but it wasn't really romantic or passionate or anything.

Aerith- This is nice, but I have no idea who you really are. You remind me of Zack and that sort of concerns me. I don't think that you are being honest with your true identity somewhat.

Cloud- What the fuck are you talking about ?

Aerith- Nevermind.

Date basically ends.

By Cloud agreeing to go on the date shows romantic interest.

The flashback with the Mum ? That's not really romantic. That Cloud's Mum telling Cloud that he should date a older woman because she'll be able to take care of him easily and it ends with Cloud saying that he's not interested. The age difference between Aeris and Cloud most likely triggered the flashback.

What else could have triggered Cloud into this romantic flashback besides this mysterious woman whose house he was sleeping in? To me, this flashback was an obvious juxtaposition of past vs. present: Cloud is remembering a time when he was disinterested in girlfriends, but now with the introduction of Aerith, a women he finds attractive, he might start to feel differently. Do you disagree that that was SE's intent?

Nope. Cloud just thinks that she's very beautiful and has a nice personality. Nothing romantic.

Why does SE say Cloud and Aerith have a "special bond" that was different than Cloud's bond with Tifa? Why would SE compare/contrast Cloud and Aerith's bond with Cloud's other love rival, Tifa?

Why is Tifa, according to SE, jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII/AC? Is her jealously unfounded and irrational?

 

[Dashell]

Why does SE say Cloud and Aerith have a "special bond" that was different than Cloud's bond with Tifa? Why would SE compare/contrast Cloud and Aerith's bond with Cloud's other love rival, Tifa?

Cause it IS different?

I don't understand how the ONLY way their bond can be different is if it's romantic.