The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
I think I pissed BB off i didn't mean too :sadpanda:

runs away from thread as quickly as possible

but

Marlene
"Guess what? Guess what? Aerith was asking me lots of questions."

"Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

<CHOICE>
I don't know
Let's hope so

***Cloud
I don't know

Marlene
"Stupid!"

***Cloud
Let's hope so

Marlene
"I won't tell Tifa."
<//>

(Cloud goes to leave.)


tumblr_mc20yrHAUW1rugtvpo1_250.gif


bye every1 i hide now
&#8220;Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she&#8217;s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says &#8220;I won&#8217;t tell Tifa!&#8221; demonstrates this grownup behavior.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let&#8217;s hope so."
Marlene: "I won&#8217;t tell Tifa."




Even Hawkeye agrees that the primary question revolving around the LTD is, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

We know that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith based on his conversation with Marlene. Even Marlene understands this because she responds by saying, "I won't tell Tifa." Then, shortly after this conversation, Cloud decides to recuse Aerith. Then, Barret makes his observation, and then Tifa let's her "peevish feelings" slip shortly after that.

Dang. That's three people right in a-row that observe/agree with what us Clerith's have been saying for years -- Cloud. Likes. Aerith. Romantically.

The bottom line is: even though Cloud and Aerith do not express their mutual feelings to each other, they still HAVE mutual feelings for each other. Therefore, Clerith and Cloti are both canon.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Cause it IS different?

I don't understand how the ONLY way their bond can be different is if it's romantic.
But SE is putting this information in the context of comparing Cloud's relationship with his two love rivals. Therefore, Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith is different than Cloud's romantic bond with Tifa. But both bonds are romantic -- it just so happens that Cloud and Aerith's romantic bond seemed to have developed very quickly and was very playful/flirtatious, which is why I think Tifa was jealous about it.

So yes, the romantic bonds Cloud had with Aerith and Tifa were different, but at the end of the day, they were both bonds that were romantic. Just look at the context SE is placing this information in.
 
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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
You missed my point entirely.

You are trying to make it seem as though Tifa's perception of Cloud and Aerith's relationship is only Tifa's perception, not reality. But the fact is, her perception of things *IS* reality. So I'd argue that Tifa has great perception skills because despite not knowing all of what I outlined, she was still able to see the romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith in the Shinra jail cells.

It's you who missed my point.
Tifa is not a psychic who knew that Cloud had a flashback with his mother, or knew that Cloud told Marlene some interest in Aerith. You are the one insisting Tifa's perception is reality because it fits your Clerith perspective.

You: Tifa further proves that Clerith is canon because her jealousy proves Cloud's affection for Aerith
Me: Tifa is a woman in love who finds a love rival who is indeed a beautiful and charming woman and she's jealous

Since you failed to understand my explanation I'm gonna leave it like that.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
it just so happens that Cloud and Aerith's romantic bond seemed to have developed very quickly and was very playful/flirtatious, which is why I think Tifa was jealous about it.

Okay so.. both bonds are romantic... doesn't it stand to reason that Cloud is with Tifa romantically then?
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
Re the flashback thing. It's always struck me as weird, it's for the benefit of the player but it assumes youve read the manual and know their ages. Also, in universe - how would Cloud even know she was older? It's only a years difference, not something you could tell by looking.

Seriously. And he didn't get the flashback because he met Aerith. The flashback was triggered by sleeping in a nice, comfy bed. And why would it be so great if meeting Aerith triggered a flashback for Cloud where he says he isn't interested in an older girlfriend?
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Dagger, are you going to admit that the Marlene scene is not optional and proves Cloud does express a romantic interest in Aerith? Even Marlene, a little girl, understands that Cloud was expressing a romantic interest in Aerith because she says, "I won't tell Tifa".

Again -- both Cloud and Aerith express romantic interest in each other. It is irrelevant that they never expressed these feelings to each other because that's not the question at play.

--------------------

It's you who missed my point.
Tifa is not a psychic who knew that Cloud had a flashback with his mother, or knew that Cloud told Marlene some interest in Aerith.
Tifa is not a psychic. She can only observe things with her eyes. Which is why she let her, "peevish feelings slip" when she witnessed Cloud and Aerith flirting. (Some) Cloti's continue to claim that Tifa was simply being an insecure woman and had no basis for her jealously. Well, I would say that witnessing Cloud and Aerith flirting *WAS* a basis for jealously.

But my point is that Tifa's perception *IS* reality, even if she doesn't know all the reasons why her perception is reality. Tifa thinks there's something between Cloud and Aerith just by witnessing their interaction in the Shinra jail cell. But can you imagine what Tifa would think or how she'd react if she knew Cloud thought Aerith was physically attractive, or that Cloud agreed to go on a DATE with Aerith, or that he had a romantic flashback in Aerith's house, or that he told Marlene he hoped Aerith liked him?

If all it took for Tifa to let her, "peevish feelings slip" was Cloud and Aerith flirting in-front of her, I can't imagine how she'd react if she knew the full story.

--------------------

Okay so.. both bonds are romantic... doesn't it stand to reason that Cloud is with Tifa romantically then?
Sadly, nothing in CoT or AC confirms that they are in a relationship. It seems that whatever mutual feelings they expressed either went away or never developed into a fully-functioning relationship.

But I'm glad that you understand where I'm coming from when SE decides to compare/contrast Cloud's romantic relationships between his two love rivals.

When SE says Cloud's bond with Aerith's is "different" than Cloud's bond with Tifa, it isn't because one is romantic and one is not, it's because Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith developed very quickly and was flirtatious/playful, which is why Tifa became jealous. Both relationships are romantic in nature, it just so happens Tifa wishes her romantic bond with Cloud was more like his romantic bond with Aerith.
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Seriously. And he didn't get the flashback because he met Aerith. The flashback was triggered by sleeping in a nice, comfy bed. And why would it be so great if meeting Aerith triggered a flashback for Cloud where he says he isn't interested in an older girlfriend?
Already posted this to someone else, but I thought I'd share with you my thoughts on Cloud's flashback:
To me, this flashback was an obvious juxtaposition of past vs. present: Cloud is remembering a time when he was disinterested in girlfriends, but now with the introduction of Aerith, a women he finds attractive, he might start to feel differently. Do you disagree that that was SE's intent?
 

Akai Hana

Unknown Creature
AKA
Akai Hana, Komori Yui
By Cloud agreeing What else could have triggered Cloud into this romantic flashback besides this mysterious woman whose house he was sleeping in? To me, this flashback was an obvious juxtaposition of past vs. present: Cloud is remembering a time when he was disinterested in girlfriends, but now with the introduction of Aerith, a women he finds attractive, he might start to feel differently. Do you disagree that that was SE's intent?


I'm sorry to suddenly quoting your opinion. I have been following and reading this thread religiously for the past one month though I have just recently sign up to be member of this forum. And hi my name is Hana. Yoroshiku.

Okay back to what I want to say. First Cloud's mom did not know anything about Aerith.. What she said is what mothers usually said if their own child is unable to take care of himself. Second why on earth that what SE true intention? I mean if that really what SE intent to do in the first place, they could make the next dialogue like this..

*Cloud in Kalm Inn remembering his mom once wishful thoughts

Flashback
Cloud's mom : You should have... An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you.
Flashback ended

Cloud speaking to Aerith
Cloud: Hey Aerith. You know what my mom once told me that I should get myself an older girlfriend. I think I have one now.
Aerith: Oh really Cloud? Who is that?
Cloud: you.
Aerith: oh Cloud!! Lets go to bed (jump in glee)
Cloud: But before that I think we should wait until the end of disk 1 first.
Aerith: why?
Cloud: because it is clearly developer's main intention to kill you. Then let me to have spirit smex with you using my mind.
Aerith: oh Cloud I cant wait!
Cloud: Yes me too Aerith.. Lets just wait okay?


sorry for the lame jokes. No intention to bash anyone.. Okay roger and out.



*****

Sorry for my bad english.. English is so dang hard! I'm not a native english speaker. So spare me a little will you? Thank you.
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
Already posted this to someone else, but I thought I'd share with you my thoughts on Cloud's flashback:
To me, this flashback was an obvious juxtaposition of past vs. present: Cloud is remembering a time when he was disinterested in girlfriends, but now with the introduction of Aerith, a women he finds attractive, he might start to feel differently. Do you disagree that that was SE's intent?

But the time Cloud's flashing back to isn't a time when he was disinterested in girlfriends. Cloud wasn't interested in a hypothetical older girlfriend because there was already someone he liked at the time. Tifa. So no, I don't think that was their intent.
 

Kittie

General Eccentric
AKA
The Iron Witch
This isn't necessarily directed at BlankBeat. Anyone feel free to reply. I'm just sorting through my thoughts.
I'm more willing than most here to accept the Emperor/Empress thing as a subtle nod to the potential romance Cloud and Aerith could have had, but I can't buy that "this is how Square sees them" was the only intention when the release of the Hinamatsuri holiday specials was accompanied by the "school days" Tifa and Zack specials in reference to the start of the school year.

If "this is how Square sees them" applies to one set, then what are they saying about the other? To make the first into some definitive romantic statement requires either applying an inconsistent logic where the other set is concerned or ignoring it outright -- neither of which makes for a sound approach.

The only consistent logic you can bring to the whole thing is that the main characters of FFVII got the Emperor and Empress roles while the secondary characters got the shaft.

Does anyone feel differently? If so, why?

And, BlankBeat, should you decide to respond to this question, please don't copy-paste "the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship" posts you've already made to me before. I'm asking an honest question about why one themed set would be an exception when they were released together.
Tres, in response to your question regarding the Emperor/Empress thing, I've actually given this thing some thought since March, and I feel that it's possible that SE is expressing "what might have been" between Cloud and Aerith, had she lived. I also wholeheartedly agree with you: there's certainly the fact that Cloud and Aerith are the main hero/heroine of the FFVII, and it would make sense for the two to be a matching set.

Notwithstanding those observations, however, I can also see the Zack and Tifa with school outfits as a complimentary set, especially since both were/are the love interests of the main hero/heroine. I do not believe that SE is promoting Zack and Tifa as a romantic pair in any way, per se, but I do find it interesting that the latter two were made into a matching set, which I believe followed in news after SE revealed the matching Emperor/Empress.

As Brigade isn't part of the Compilation, I don't find either set lending any real concrete evidence for anything with regard to the FFVII canon, especially since it appears that most merchandise for the Compilation is geared more so in another direction entirely.

Nevertheless, the sets provide an interesting possibility outside of the game canon. I personally like the designs for both sets, but that's just me. :)
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Okay so.. both bonds are romantic... doesn't it stand to reason that Cloud is with Tifa romantically then?

That makes sense and is logical. Stop it, those things have no place in this thread. Shame on you :wacky:

I'm sorry to suddenly quoting your opinion. I have been following and reading this thread religiously for the past one month though I have just recently sign up to be member of this forum. And hi my name is Hana. Yoroshiku.

Okay back to what I want to say. First Cloud's mom did not know anything about Aerith.. What she said is what mothers usually said if their own child is unable to take care of himself. Second why on earth that what SE true intention? I mean if that really what SE intent to do in the first place, they could make the next dialogue like this..

*Cloud in Kalm Inn remembering his mom once wishful thoughts

Flashback
Cloud's mom : You should have... An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you.
Flashback ended

Cloud speaking to Aerith
Cloud: Hey Aerith. You know what my mom once told me that I should get myself an older girlfriend. I think I have one now.
Aerith: Oh really Cloud? Who is that?
Cloud: you.
Aerith: oh Cloud!! Lets go to bed (jump in glee)
Cloud: But before that I think we should wait until the end of disk 1 first.
Aerith: why?
Cloud: because it is clearly developer's main intention to kill you. Then let me to have spirit smex with you using my mind.
Aerith: oh Cloud I cant wait!
Cloud: Yes me too Aerith.. Lets just wait okay?

^I like this one, I vote we keep 'em.


sorry for the lame jokes. No intention to bash anyone..

I laughed, so they can't have been too lame :awesome:
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
And all of Cloud's friends are dear to him in different ways and for different reasons. The way in which Aerith is dear to him is romantic, not platonic.

Okay...so you use the Tifa ultimania quote to say Cloud still has feelings for Aerith because Tifa was hurt and jealous that Cloud was staying at the church. So I quote to you both AC info on Cloud and Aerith from the same source that say NOTHING about Cloud still being in love with Aerith, but just that he is happy with his family and feels guilty, can't protect them, etc. If the only thing you can use to get out of that is that Cloud feels guilty for not protecting those dear to him and claiming "dear to him" means he loved Aerith; you are skating on thin ice.

Oh I guess you did mention too that since Tifa felt a twinge of jealousy then her feelings must be founded because she has good perception skills. But they aren't always that good and Cloud can be hard to read even for Tifa, despite how well she knows him. I mean she had no clue Cloud was in love with her when they were kids.

Also, stop using the jail cell, Barret's comment, the initial physical attraction, etc. All this stuff does is show that Cloud was attracted to her. Plus, all of this occurs while still in Midgar, the first few hours of the game. Most people on here agree that Cloud was attracted to Aerith. We don't need evidence of that. Listing these types of things does not show that Cloud was deeply in love with Aerith. All we see from the two in the game is more like puppy love. They never progress further than that and Cloud was not himself that whole time anyway.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
Tres, in response to your question regarding the Emperor/Empress thing, I've actually given this thing some thought since March, and I feel that it's possible that SE is expressing "what might have been" between Cloud and Aerith, had she lived. I also wholeheartedly agree with you: there's certainly the fact that Cloud and Aerith are the main hero/heroine of the FFVII, and it would make sense for the two to be a matching set.
Wow, all these interesting theories about Brigade's designs.

Let me offer my own:

Brigade is arguably a scam and most definitely a shit stain on the Final Fantasy franchise, made by people who were insane, had no idea what they were doing, or obviously didn't care and therefore the fact we are giving it any credence to anything is laughable at best, and insulting at worst.

This horseshit of a "game" was created to suck money dry from loyal fans and has little to no bearing on anything because if the producers or creative directors had any say in it, they would have either made it so that it wasn't a poorly designed mess or burned every copy, but since its digital they would have to had burned their computers but considering what came out of it... that it is an acceptable loss.

Brigade and everything that comes out of it is a thoughtless, poorly executed, mediocre, mess and I hate we have to sit there any pretend it says anything about the original games. Let's go back to arguing Dissidia or Kingdom Hearts, because it at least had some care put into it and we know it wasn't created by two accountants chained up in SE's basement, punching random keys on their board while being force-fed hallucinogens.

*screams into a paperbag*
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Okay...so you use the Tifa ultimania quote to say Cloud still has feelings for Aerith because Tifa was hurt and jealous that Cloud was staying at the church. So I quote to you both AC info on Cloud and Aerith from the same source that say NOTHING about Cloud still being in love with Aerith, but just that he is happy with his family and feels guilty, can't protect them, etc. If the only thing you can use to get out of that is that Cloud feels guilty for not protecting those dear to him and claiming "dear to him" means he loved Aerith; you are skating on thin ice.
Tifa understands that Cloud and Aerith shared a romantic bond while Aerith was alive. So when she see's Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, it signals to her that Cloud may still harbor romantic feelings for Aerith (remember, this is Final Fantasy -- death does not stop two people's bond, just ask Vincent). Cloud still harboring romantic feelings for Aerith would obviously complicate his relationship with Tifa -- which is why she is upset with Cloud that he wasn't, "merely dragging around the past" but that it might perhaps be, "related to Aerith" in particular (ie: Tifa's "love rival").

Furthermore, I do not think it's illogical to think that Aerith was dear to Cloud because of the romantic bond they shared. Part of the reason Cloud harbors such guilt over Aerith's death is tied directly to the romantic feelings we know Cloud felt for her.

Also, stop using the jail cell,
But the jail cell scene is relevant because it shows Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith. In addition, Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith IN-FRONT of TIfa. Interesting that while both Tifa and Aerith are alive, Cloud prefers Aerith as evidenced by him flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa.

Barret's comment,
But Barret's comment tells us that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are moving beyond just that of initial physical attraction. Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met. Barret's observation also signals that Cloud is starting to do things that were very uncharacteristic of him -- and he was only doing these things for one person -- Aerith. That, right there, shows Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" is moving beyond initial physical attraction.

the initial physical attraction, etc.
The initial physical attraction laid the foundation for what was to follow.

All this stuff does is show that Cloud was attracted to her.
You forgot that in the midst of all those reasons, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Therefore, his desire to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters is obviously tied to the romantic feelings he was already starting to develop for her.

They never progress further than that and Cloud was not himself that whole time anyway.
After all the things I outlined, Cloud goes on a date with Aerith *AND* he tells her he is there for her in Cosmo Canyon. All of that shows a deepening of their relationship (at least in video game world). But I'd say Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death shows just how close they became in such a short time span.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
But the jail cell scene is relevant because it shows Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith. In addition, Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith IN-FRONT of TIfa. Interesting that while both Tifa and Aerith are alive, Cloud prefers Aerith as evidenced by him flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa.
Um if anything it was Aerith flirting with him. Here is a script excerpt:
***Cloud I wonder how Aerith is doing

(The camera moves over to show Aerith's cell. She is lying on her cot.)
Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"

Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"

Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right." (She swings her legs over the side of the cot.)

Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."

Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?" (She walks to the door of her cell.)

Aerith "The deal was for one date, right?" (Tifa sits up.)

Tifa "............oh, I get it." Aerith "...!? Tifa! Tifa, you're there too!"

Tifa "EXCUSE me."
Where is Cloud flirting with Aerith? He agreed to be her bodyguard and says so. Not getting any flirty vibes. It is Aerith who mentions the date.
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
But why does SE point out Cloud and Aerith's special bond in comparison to Cloud's other love rival, Tifa?

Because for most people, there's not a need to PROVE by scaping for every piece of "evidence" that Cloud loves Aeris, not Tifa.

People like your goodself aside, and people with short attention span, FF7 is a very simple story once you play it twice. First time, it can confuse, second time, it's evident. Japanese literature doesn't spoonfed its audience like the West does. It doesn't feel an obligation to explain what is obvious. By saying Cloud has a special bond with Aeris it's highlighting a key aspect of Cloud's arc. His bond with Aeris - his code, his honour, his respect and his responsibility - and his acceptance of how important she was, are all absolutely key to Cloud's personality. This isn't love. This is character arc. His guilt is built on all these factors, just as his failure of Tifa, his hometown, Zack caused him to breakdown. His bond with Aeris is special - its key to Cloud as a character. It's not love. You want it to be love, that's the key issue here and you will hunt anything which will justify something that any sensible man will look stunned at.

If you need to find quotes from books to prove to you are righteous on a commercial, mainstream, made for family entertainment video game, either the game is crap and can't tell a story, or you're looking for story that isn't there.

The rationale for love is this: Cloud found Aerith physically attractive. Cloud agreed to go on a date with Aerith. Cloud thought Aerith was funny. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith. Cloud told Marlene he hoped Aerith liked him. Cloud flirted with Aerith in-front of Tifa. Cloud was willing to risk his life to save Aerith, a girl he had just met. Cloud went on a romantic date with Aerith in Golden Saucer.

Cloud and Aerith did things that Cloud did not do with any other character. These things that Cloud and Aerith did together tell us that Cloud's "special bond" with Aerith is not the same as Aerith's "special bond" with the other characters because Cloud and Aerith shared a bond that was more than just platonic, it was romantic.

You played Cloud's romantic date? It's not romantic. Have you watched any Japanese films or read the books? Cloud is a typical teen archetype - dragged into romantic subplots against his certainties. That's the comedy, not romance.

And again, the one irrefutable fact you sidestep because it destroys the whole debate - Cloud was sick. He wasn't himself - literally. He was in the middle of a mental breakdown. Aeris was falling for a guy who reminded her of her lover. Is that all really romantic? Is it love I hear in the trees singing this tale? It's not. Cloud cares for Aeris. She's attractive, she is charming and he is her guardian in his mixed up world. Could they have enjoyed some seeding under a Highwind in a world where he wasn't mad and she wasn't mourning? Quite possibly. Aeris is meant to be so charming ALL the heroes love her. So no doubt.

But not in this tale.


Not true: "I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.&#8221; ~Aerith&#8217;s monologue in Gongaga, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Go re-read Maiden. It gives you lots of nuances to Aeris' confusion between her romantic love for Zack, her infatuation for Cloud, her anger at Zack and inability to see how much Zack means to her. This works in tandem with FF7 - she doesn't know Zack's demise, she feels abandoned, and here's this Sub-Zack - or maybe Better-Than-Zack that is alive and well (or so she thinks).

Aeris' love is Zack. Read Maiden, that once holy bible of shipping, read it properly - change the names of Aeris, Cloud, Tifa and Zack and read it without any loaded aspirations or hopes. It's actually a very clear document to who Aeris is. It also makes clear what you don't see in FF7 because the character is unaware of key facts regarding Zack and Cloud.

Barret observes that it is Aerith, and only Aerith, that is able to bring out the real!Cloud while he was profoundly messed up in multiple ways. That's pretty impressive that Aerith could do that.

But she doesn't. Only person who brings out Cloud, is Tifa. Not Aeris. Either way, whoever did, doesn't prove romantic love.

Mothers and families can be vital in helping a child. Doesn't mean incest.

Once again, if you truly want truth, step back. Forget the Western expectation for every aspect of a story to be dotted and crossed and spoonfed. The CloudxTifa thing is evident, but its not pivotal to FF7's story, because well, romance isn't actually that interesting. It's what I love about Japanese storytelling (or at least, some of it, not wanting to generalise), but they don't spoonfeed as we do. Cloud went to Soldier to impress Tifa, he fails, in fact almost comically fails, by failing to save her, their hometown, their families and even his hero. That's mega bad fail. Breakdown fail. He then plays the persona of the Hero he aspired to, unwittingly to his hero's girlfriend! Oh the hilarity! He then fails to save her too! Breakdown time again! In the end, the only one who can break through the mad is the girl he went to impress in the first place. They go off, become a couple, but happiness can't last with that tragedy bag on his back, and his relationship, his friends and his responsibilities fall to the wayside as the guilt and disease take him. He feels so hopeless and useless he can't face anyone, and fears helping anyone (now go look back at the comic tragedy and you can see why, seriously, Frank Spencer has had less catastrophic moments). They all forgive him. They all tell him to move on. He does. And to give everything a happy ending, he sees Zack and Aeris united in death as he's united in life.

Now that story is big, mad and complex. Having to point ot who Cloud loves in that story shouldn't really be a vital point, should it? If he doesn't love Tifa, half the story makes no sense, if Aeris loves Cloud more than Zack, Advent Children loses its happy ending - and in both instances the Way to the Smile novellas are, well you have to say they didn't happen, just to make it so Aeries loves Cloud, and doesn't really like Zack and Cloud loves Aeries, and just puts up with that girl he once wanted to impress. It's mad. Madness! Madness!

You could do a comedy to Cloud's horrific bad luck. It's mind-boggling when you write it out.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Yeah, not explicitly showing what people think is more common in Eastern literature then in Western literature. Come to think of it, it's probably why the love confession is such a bid deal for them. In the West, saying what you think is really common, to the point where it doesn't mean all that much. On the other had, because most of the characters don't say what their relationships really are, you get a lot more shipping teases out of a series.
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
^^Yeah, not explicitly showing what people think is more common in Eastern literature then in Western literature. Come to think of it, it's probably why the love confession is such a bid deal for them. In the West, saying what you think is really common, to the point where it doesn't mean all that much. On the other had, because most of the characters don't say what their relationships really are, you get a lot more shipping teases out of a series.

I think there's some truth here. I'll find Japanese films that barely have love interests in them at all - of if they do, if they're not story relevant, they remain comparatively understated compared to Western output. Some of course are the entire focus. It's a generalisation again, but I find the West has to have a staple front-of-stage love interest in every commercial film, and that means we expect it in other cultures.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You guys are really going to keep debating with someone who pretends that DisC1oud has all his memories of being in love with Tifa and still blatantly, dismissively preferred Aerith regardless?:

Interesting that while both Tifa and Aerith are alive, Cloud prefers Aerith as evidenced by him flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa.
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
You guys are really going to keep debating with someone who pretends that DisC1oud has all his memories of being in love with Tifa and still blatantly, dismissively preferred Aerith regardless?:

Six years on, I presume that's a rhetorical question.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Tifa understands that Cloud and Aerith shared a romantic bond while Aerith was alive. So when she see's Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, it signals to her that Cloud may still harbor romantic feelings for Aerith (remember, this is Final Fantasy -- death does not stop two people's bond, just ask Vincent). Cloud still harboring romantic feelings for Aerith would obviously complicate his relationship with Tifa -- which is why she is upset with Cloud that he wasn't, "merely dragging around the past" but that it might perhaps be, "related to Aerith" in particular (ie: Tifa's "love rival").

Furthermore, I do not think it's illogical to think that Aerith was dear to Cloud because of the romantic bond they shared. Part of the reason Cloud harbors such guilt over Aerith's death is tied directly to the romantic feelings we know Cloud felt for her.


But the jail cell scene is relevant because it shows Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith. In addition, Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith IN-FRONT of TIfa. Interesting that while both Tifa and Aerith are alive, Cloud prefers Aerith as evidenced by him flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa.


But Barret's comment tells us that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are moving beyond just that of initial physical attraction. Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met. Barret's observation also signals that Cloud is starting to do things that were very uncharacteristic of him -- and he was only doing these things for one person -- Aerith. That, right there, shows Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" is moving beyond initial physical attraction.


The initial physical attraction laid the foundation for what was to follow.


You forgot that in the midst of all those reasons, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Therefore, his desire to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters is obviously tied to the romantic feelings he was already starting to develop for her.


After all the things I outlined, Cloud goes on a date with Aerith *AND* he tells her he is there for her in Cosmo Canyon. All of that shows a deepening of their relationship (at least in video game world). But I'd say Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death shows just how close they became in such a short time span.

I give up...

 

Akai Hana

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Akai Hana, Komori Yui
...and now that's changed with the introduction of Aerith :loopy:

..... and how that's changed too when he knows that all his attraction towards the said flower girl is all because of the memories that is mixed with Zack's.

..... and how that's changed too when he remembers his long time crush on Tifa, how he is still in love with her and she reciprocate it.

..... and how that's changed too when he moves on to live with his long time crush and create a family together.

and I could go on and on..

Furthermore, I do not think it's illogical to think that Aerith was dear to Cloud because of the romantic bond they shared. Part of the reason Cloud harbors such guilt over Aerith's death is tied directly to the romantic feelings we know Cloud felt for her.

Cloud harbors such guilt NOT because he had a romantic feelings towards her. No. He harbors such guilt because he failed her. He was supposed to be her bodyguard, remember? All he wanted in AC/C is forgiveness.

But the jail cell scene is relevant because it shows Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith. In addition, Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith IN-FRONT of TIfa. Interesting that while both Tifa and Aerith are alive, Cloud prefers Aerith as evidenced by him flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa.

He merely said that he is her bodyguard and that counts as flirting? How world has turn upside down. :monster:


You forgot that in the midst of all those reasons, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Therefore, his desire to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters is obviously tied to the romantic feelings he was already starting to develop for her.

sigh. He remembers he is her bodyguard and they owe it to her because Marlene's safety. Romantic feelings? No. Attraction. Yes.
 
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