Quexinos
OH whoops, you DID say the HA scene. But I just want to know your thoughts on what Tifa is afraid they HEARD that's so embarrassing. For that matter, I'd like to know anyone's thought on this.
Tifa falls asleep on Cloud's shoulder in both versions. People seeing that is enough to make Tifa embarrassed, if you ask me.
But she does say "listening" in the LA version, which wouldn't apply to seeing her asleep on Cloud's shoulder. In that case, Tifa could be embarrassed to know people heard them discussing the fact that they aren't romantically interested in each other.
If you claim that the other passages which don't specify what feelings are talking about love, then it seems that you do think that "feelings" = "love".
Not always, just in reference to the Highwind scene.
LOL... so the word "feelings" does not always mean "love". You just want to assume that it does in reference to the Highwind scene? That's quite an assumption, if you ask me.
Frankly, I think you're just trying to twist the words in your favor. I've clearly said that "apathetic" is referring to the fact that they are not romantically interested in each other.
Then you need to have evidence to back that up. The statement is "When it gets low, the
conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short." The
conversation itself is apathetic, so the conversation is lacking feeling. No where does it mention romantic feelings in there. So again, I ask, do you have any evidence that's what the word is referring to?
I could swear I've already answered this, but okay - once again:
* "APATHETIC" MEANS THAT
Here is the meaning of apathetic from dictionary.com:
ap·a·thet·ic
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic
You keep focusing on meaning #1. I keep focusing on meaning #2. Meaning #2 is "not interested" and "indifferent". That can mean "not interested romantically" and "indifferent romantically".
"Indifferent" means "not concerned" and "not caring". What does "not caring" mean? That means they're not interested romantically.
So quit looking at meaning #1 and you'll get your answer.
Maybe they haven't given a quote, but they have given a non-optional scene that shows a particular outcome happened - such as Shadow reappearing later on after the "death" scene. We've seen nothing like that for the HW scene.
Can you tell me about this scene? I haven't played this game but I'm hearing others say such a scene does not exist. So can you specify which one you mean?
I haven't played the game either, but I was told such a scene exists by Tres and Ryu. At least, when they say that Shadow appears later, after the death scene, most people (including me) would assume that means during the game. If he's shown later only in the Ultimania, then you have to wonder why SE would show him in a picture if he doesn't actually appear in the game.
Not in the quote Sesc gave us.
I'm curious if you actually know the translation of the full quote because he says NOTHING about Cloud's love life is up to the player.
I didn't say he said that Cloud's love life is up to the player. I said that Nomura says he doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship during the two years prior to AC, and that's exactly what he said according to your translation.
Here is a full translation:
A Final Fantasy VII fan interviewed Tetsuya Nomura for Dorimaga magazine and asked "How many girls has Sephiroth ever loved?". In reaction, Nomura spoke evasively in anticipation of more questions regarding Cloud and Tifa's love life, which have nothing to do with Sephiroth.
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.
He says he doesn't have any clue whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship for two years after FFVII ended - that's the two years prior to AC.
If Nomura doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship during that time, then the HA version of the HW scene is obviously
NOT canon.
If the HA HW scene is not canon, then SE didn't make a decision about whether or not Cloud loves Tifa.
By extension, you could go on to assume that Cloud and Tifa's love life is "up to the player" since it wasn't decided by SE.
And by the way, that translation is exactly the same as the translation at
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB which you always said we didn't have a source for. Well, looks like we have the source now, thanks to Sesc. *hugs to Sesc*
No where in there does he say it's up to the player. He say
1. "I don't care about who loves who."
2. Imagine the scenes WE DON'T MENTION however you want.
3. And I don't know
He doens't know because he doesn't care because he doesn't keep track of that stuff. And stuff they don't mention, we can think whatever we want. The stuff they don't mention... not everything. That's very different from what you say it says.
Already explained.
Also let's look at some more stuff from this interview:
The Meaning of No Words
There are relatively few spoken lines during AC. Most of what characters feel and what the developers wanted to convey is expressed through the character's facial expressions and actions. Audiences won't get the finality of a closeup kiss and characters shouting "I love you". They will get something classier, where the same ideas and messages are there, only delivered in a subliminal context.
No words? Well gee where have we heard that before?
Perhaps I'm stretching it, but they specifically say the answers are there and they are NOT going to show it by a kiss. So how is saying they show this stuff without an "I love you" or without a kiss "leaving it up to the player"?
Because I clearly see an "I love you" between Cloud and Aerith in the hand reach scene and you don't. That's leaving it up to interpretation, which is leaving it "up to the player".
The sources I look at say nothing about past progressive tense continuing to the present time.
EDIT:
Okay, after reading this quote over and over and thinking about it, I can honestly see how it can be taken both ways. I think it's stretching it a bit, but I can see how "was holding feeling" can refer to the Promise Scene
BUT
There's also the quote in the 10th AU that says they became aware of the feelings they were holding in the Lifestream. and I know the 20th AU says something similar. Would you agree (just yes or no) that the feelings they became aware of in the Lifestream were the same ones they talked about during the Highwind scene?
No. I think that's jumping to conclusions, especially since different feelings are being referred to.
"By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream"
The reference here is in the lifestream. SO that's when he was holding feelings and that's when he told her.
What you're not seeing is that he informed her in the Lifestream that he had a crush on her
as a child in Nibelheim and wanted her to notice him
as a child in Nibelheim. That does
not mean that he has feelings for her now.
Sorry, but the references I gave you above do not support what you're saying.
Really quick though, can you at least see where I'm coming from?
I can see what you
want it to mean, but I disagree - I don't think it means that.
And that means he loves her now? It can't mean that he's just glad to find out that his tactics worked? He wanted her to pay attention to him - she did. How do you know he wasn't just happy to hear that?
Not by itself, no it doesn't mean he loves her, but when we look at everything else in context we come to that conclusion.
No,
YOU come to that conclusion. I
don't come to that conclusion, and neither do many other Clerith people I know.
But why do they have to confirm it under the HW if they already told one another about it in the Lifestream? It shouldn't be news under the HW if they already told one another.
Okay again, they found out in the Lifestream and discussed it under the Highwind. They became aware if you would. That's what the 10th AU says.
No, that's how you interpret what it says in the 10th AU.
Then in the Highwind scene they confirm said feelings. Again, doesn't it stand to reason that whatever feelings they were talking about under the Highwind was the same feelings they became aware of?
In the first place, I don't think the 10th AU says that they confirm feelings that they had in the Lifestream under the HW. However, even if it did say that, I don't think they said anything about loving one another during the Lifestream event. Tifa found out that Cloud had a crush on her as a kid, and Cloud found out that Tifa looked for him in the newspapers after her left - that's it.
Also, you act like if two people realize they love each other, they only talk about it once.
I don't think that, and I never said that.
This isn't the way a relationship works. If you realize you love someone, you don't just tell them once and be done with it. You tell them a lot, and you talk about your relationship sometimes. Especially if the relationship is new. That's just how it works.
Yes, Dr. Phil.
Think of past lovers you've had. Did you only tell them once that you loved them? Did you ever talk about your relationship? Did you ever worry that they not love you if they grew distant? Did you ever have a break up? if the answer is yes, what made you decide to break up? Sorry if I'm getting too personal
Can we at least relate this to what's going on between Cloud and Tifa?
1)
"Did you only tell them once that you loved them?" - Have Cloud and Tifa ever said they loved one another? If they did, it was in an optional scene under player control. They have
NOT said it to one another during a non-optional scene that confirms that they said it in the optional scene.
2)
Did you ever talk about your relationship? - Yes. Where do we hear Cloud and Tifa talk about their relationship? Seems to me that Cloud and Aerith talk about their relationship when Cloud says he wants to be forgiven, and Aerith tells him that it was enough that he came for her. So - if Cloud and Aerith talked about their relationship, are you saying that means they're in love?
3)
Did you ever worry that they not love you if they grew distant? - Yes, and I've also worried that a guy's not romantically interested in me before he actually says that he loves me.
4)
Did you ever have a break up? if the answer is yes, what made you decide to break up? - Yes, but I've never broken up with someone that I didn't actually have a relationship with in the first place.
And I'm saying how do we know it's canon?
Aside from the intuitive implications of 100% story completion, there's the caption at the end of the U20 Scenario's Story Playback section for X-2 beside a screenshot of Tidus and Yuna reunited that says, "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending."
Okay - to me, that's an actual statement from SE making it canon. Where does SE ever make a statement like that about Cloud and Tifa loving one another?
This isn't my theory, it's yours, silly . You said Marlene was more important to Cloud than Denzel when you said the order of the people shown in the "What do you cherish most?" flash started with the most important. Now, aside from having no evidence of this, it would imply that it's showing them in order from most important to least important. Denzel is on the bottom. He is the LAST one shown before Zack. If Cloud truly believes his lover brought Denzel to him, Denzel should be at the top, right?
And why should we care? I don't care if Cloud likes Marlene more than Denzel. All I'm saying is that Aerith shows first, then the hand reach scene (Cloud and Aerith), then Tifa. That means Cloud thinks of Aerith
twice before he ever thinks of Tifa.
That shows an obvious preference to me, especially after Sephiroth asks what Cloud
cherishes most.
Why do you NOT have a problem with both Tifa and Marlene being more important to Cloud than the child that his lover brought to him? What makes Denzel less important to him than Marlene and Tifa?
Frankly, I don't care - it's not Denzel who Cloud's in love with. I like Marlene better than Denzel, too, but I still think Aerith brought Denzel to Cloud.
And I'm glad that I looked at it - because what I was saying is that SE is talking about the feelings of love as "meaningful". If it's not about feelings of love, then SE doesn't call it "meaningful". That doesn't mean it can't be about anything else - it just means that SE doesn't consider it exchanging feelings of love.
Okay wait I think I get it, you said SE was only saying the feelings of love are meaningful... but... that's not what is said. The say the
night they spend has profound meaning.
So you've changed your mind about them not even sharing feelings of friendship in the LA version?
No, I haven't changed my mind. I also don't understand why you would even think that.
I was providing you with the quote that we were talking about, nothing more. That make sense?
Okay. *hopes there's nothing I was supposed to respond to here*
Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to? Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.
Marlene's profile from the 10th AU talks about the family and excludes Barret.
メテオ災害のあとは、 クラウドとティファ、それにデソゼルの４人で生活。 家族がバラバラになりそうなのを見かねて、 みんなの仲を取り持とうと心をくだく。
After the meteor disaster, she's living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.
Yes, and it's specifically referring to the people she's living with at the time, which is probably why Barret's not mentioned.
However - something contradicts that. You say it says that Marlene's living with
FOUR people, then it only names
THREE people: Cloud, Tifa, and Denzel. So who's the fourth person she's living with? The only other person she lived with after the Meteor disaster was Barret - so he must be the fourth member of the family.
I won't argue that Cloud didn't care for Aerith and that she wasn't someone dear to him, because that would be a big disservice to the characters and the story. 
