I've spent about fifteen minutes here trying to think of a reply. Something to address the last few pages of posts, that won't get me another bitch ban. Part of me wanted to just post another sarcastic jab here and decide "fuck it, ban me". On the other hand, I started to type a reply to GLD's post, quote by quote, and gave up. I am really out of touch with these debates and don't feel like scrawling through ten pages of posts, so I'll address what I can see clearly here.
I will note a few things about your post - you make mention that Anastar assumes several things that are wrong. I'm not caught up with the debates, but seeing the handful of stuff I can understand, that is an incorrect statement. She assumes things and have interpretations that are contrary to your assumptions and interpretations. Frankly I've noticed both sides twist things to the point personal interpretation and fact become confused, the Cloti side is no better. As a specific example, here.
According to the Ultimania's story summary, the confirmation of feelings DID happen. So yes, yes they have.
Confirmation of feelings does not directly mean they confess their love and are in a relationship. You could go up to a crush and say "I like you", and if she responds the same way, cool, but it doesn't mean you are now boyfriend and girlfriend.
Now, I'm fuzzy on my Ultimania readings and if this "confirmation of feelings" was the actual conversation seen in-game, or one not seen in-game. If it's the latter, however, then the mentioned "confirmation" could mean anything you want it to mean - they could confirm they crushed on each other as kids but grew out of it and feel they're better as close friends. But, either if it was seen in-game or not, again, "confirmation of feelings" does not equal = "confession of love, let's fuck". Can it? Yes. Does it have to? No.
And to bring up the "toned down" Highwind scene as a relation of that - a writer's plans for a story that get cut are of interesting note, but they are cut content and should not be taken as canon unless the writer says so. In my Dissidia fanfic I at one time planned to reveal Cid and Shinryu are the same being. I don't, but I really wanted to. In the final product though, doesn't happen. That's the way of constructing a story, ideas get altered, what matters is the final product, because that's what you present as the story, not your notes on how you considered having it go. That said, yes it was planned for the Highwind scene to be more risque and less vague on what Cloud and Tifa were doing that night, ie each other, but it was toned down and the final scene does not imply that as heavily.
Two final notes. GLD, I am sorely tempted to report that post of yours for the copius amounts of passive-aggressive backhand sarcasm dripping off of it, but I know no one will care and nothing will be done, so I'll simply ask to try and be a bit more civil. If you're getting too fired up over the debate, then step back, watch a YouTube vid for five minutes or so, then reply to the post. There's no need for comments like this except to be insulting and condescending:
This is just one more log on the fire of "Anastar doesn't even read what we say" logic.
This person is an expert on jumping to conclusions folks, maybe we should listen to her this time?
Your unwillingness to comprehend these things is cute. Sad, but cute. I could just put you in my pocket.
Let me just clarify here: Confirmation of feelings WITHOUT words.
Did they high-five each other? ASL?
Also, it's confirmation of 'matching, mutual' feelings. To support the 'just friends' theory--aside from the without words hurdle--you are pressed to prove that Tifa no longer loves Cloud. And vice versa.
Side note:
This is just one more log on the fire of "Anastar doesn't even read what we say"
Also, it's confirmation of 'matching, mutual' feelings. To support the 'just friends' theory--aside from the without words hurdle--you are pressed to prove that Tifa no longer loves Cloud. And vice versa.
It's as much Cleriths proving Tifa does not love Cloud anymore as much as Clotis proving she still does. Disproving your arguments to support your point of view is not as strong a point to take in a debate as providing arguments against the point of view itself, but that's how it goes. The "Can you prove it is-can you prove it is" thing is age-old, unless you want to argue the semantics of it I doubt it'll change how things are discussed.
And if Anastar actually isn't reading the conversation, then that's a strike against her, but there's still no need for attitude. Especially since I'm fairly sure Shadow has nothing to do with the LTD, so why get so bitter over discussing him?
Wut? We are given a FACT, we are TOLD that Tifa loves Cloud. (also, that Cloud loves Tifa) It is true until proven untrue. There you go, Tifa loves Cloud. (Cloud loves Tifa) Proven.
Disproving your arguments to support your point of view is not as strong a point to take in a debate as providing arguments against the point of view itself, but that's how it goes. The "Can you prove it is-can you prove it is" thing is age-old, unless you want to argue the semantics of it I doubt it'll change how things are discussed.
And if Anastar actually isn't reading the conversation, then that's a strike against her, but there's still no need for attitude. Especially since I'm fairly sure Shadow has nothing to do with the LTD, so why get so bitter over discussing him?
Because she AGREED that Shadow's death--but ultimately NOT death--was canon, despite being optional, while arguing that an equally optional scene can't have a canon outcome, and then quickly talked out both sides of her mouth when called on it. It has nothing to do with Shadow. Feel free to go read it, and if you'd rather not, then leave it alone.
It's as much Cleriths proving Tifa does not love Cloud anymore as much as Clotis proving she still does. Disproving your arguments to support your point of view is not as strong a point to take in a debate as providing arguments against the point of view itself, but that's how it goes. The "Can you prove it is-can you prove it is" thing is age-old, unless you want to argue the semantics of it I doubt it'll change how things are discussed.
I don't think you can really argue Tifa no longer loving Cloud any more than you can argue Aerith not loving the real Cloud. The date, the fact she stayed behind to take care of Cloud in Mideel, these things speak to the fact that she really love him. Just like Aerith saying she wants to meet the real Cloud and wants Cait Sith to judge their compatibility shows that she, too, loves Cloud.
It's as much Cleriths proving Tifa does not love Cloud anymore as much as Clotis proving she still does. Disproving your arguments to support your point of view is not as strong a point to take in a debate as providing arguments against the point of view itself, but that's how it goes. The "Can you prove it is-can you prove it is" thing is age-old, unless you want to argue the semantics of it I doubt it'll change how things are discussed.
The feelings confirmed are romantic ones, dude. That's what all the entries on the page are about- people trying to confess their feelings. So the subject of the dates and the highwind scene are romantic. The primary difference is that with the Highwind, it's actually mutually confessed.
And if Anastar actually isn't reading the conversation, then that's a strike against her, but there's still no need for attitude. Especially since I'm fairly sure Shadow has nothing to do with the LTD, so why get so bitter over discussing him?
Because it's indicative of a far deeper issue directly relevant to the topic at hand- double standards.
Also, spouting her mouth off about stuff she knows nothing about while also not actually reading what people are telling her about things.
Wut? We are given a FACT, we are TOLD that Tifa loves Cloud. (also, that Cloud loves Tifa) It is true until proven untrue. There you go, Tifa loves Cloud. (Cloud loves Tifa) Proven.
off the top of my head i think of that date quote which says aerith is upfront and tifa is demure about their feelings for cloud, who has no idea either way because his brain is too stupid to understand things.
The feelings confirmed are romantic ones, dude. That's what all the entries on the page are about- people trying to confess their feelings. So the subject of the dates and the highwind scene are romantic. The primary difference is that with the Highwind, it's actually mutually confessed.
If nothing else, Cloud's U10 profile proves both women are interested in him in a non-filial sense.
Tifa and Cloud become aware of the feelings the other are holding in the lifestream- again, another thing we're told.
Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings without words under the highwind. As per the FTOIL page, this happens without regards to a version, and the feelings are of a romantic nature.
Plus them moving in, kids, future, somone's lover, forming a family, blah blah blah.
[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.
Oh, Cloud says mother to Aerith! That means it's a motherly bond! or Hey, it says Tifa says Cloud is like a big kid! She only thinks of him as a mother.
Dude, if you had the relationship with your mom like Aerith and Tifa did with Cloud, you come from a very strange family.
EDIT:
ot directly stating Spiritsex, but yes recently implied. Anastar has stated repeatedly in this thread that Cloud visits Aerith. In fact, that she's listening in on his call home to Tifa because he's stopped to be with her. If that's not asshole, douchebag behavior (calling your FAMILY while visiting your lover) I don't know what is...
Yeah but no one really takes that argument seriously.
imo, the more substantial and more compelling arguments from the fact that Cloud/Aerith very much had chemistry in the game, and just how much Cloud had come to feel for her before she died, and how those feelings manifested after she died- and in part how they change the Cloud-Tifa dynamic. That's where the real Clerith points are.
Oh, Cloud says mother to Aerith! That means it's a motherly bond! or Hey, it says Tifa says Cloud is like a big kid! She only thinks of him as a mother.
Dude, if you had the relationship with your mom like Aerith and Tifa did with Cloud, you come from a very strange family.
I think honestly saying Cloud loves one of his children more than another is making him an asshole.
LOL... so the word "feelings" does not always mean "love". You just want to assume that it does in reference to the Highwind scene? That's quite an assumption, if you ask me.
If saying "Four out of these 8 quotes are talking about romantic feelings for sure, so the others probably are as well since they are worded almost exactly the same" is assuming, then I'm an assuming machine
I could swear I've already answered this, but okay - once again:
* "APATHETIC" MEANS THAT
Here is the meaning of apathetic from dictionary.com:
ap·a·thet·ic
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic
You keep focusing on meaning #1. I keep focusing on meaning #2. Meaning #2 is "not interested" and "indifferent". That can mean "not interested romantically" and "indifferent romantically".
"Indifferent" means "not concerned" and "not caring". What does "not caring" mean? That means they're not interested romantically.
So quit looking at meaning #1 and you'll get your answer.
So if you don't care about someone, that means you only don't care about them romantically? If I say, "I don't care about Bob." can that only mean I don't care about him romantically? Or can that mean I don't care about him at all even as a friend?
I haven't played the game either, but I was told such a scene exists by Tres and Ryu. At least, when they say that Shadow appears later, after the death scene, most people (including me) would assume that means during the game. If he's shown later only in the Ultimania, then you have to wonder why SE would show him in a picture if he doesn't actually appear in the game.
My bad here, I thought when you were talking about Cloud's love life here. What were you talking about then? I guess I got lost.
I said that Nomura says he doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship during the two years prior to AC, and that's exactly what he said according to your translation.
No, he said that he was asked about Cloud and Tifa two years after FFVII was released. I mean think about it, it makes no sense for someone to ask Nomura, "Were Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship for two years?" Why would someone ask that? They would most likely ask, "Were Cloud and Tifa in a relationship after FFVII?" and he's saying for two yeras after FFVII was released, he was asked this and he doens't know cause he doesn't care.
Okay, Sesc provided a much clearer translation of that line and you were right about what it said. I hadn't really looked at that before and the translation I was using made it sound like he was asked that question for two years after FFVII ended, but it's saying "for two years prior to AC." (seriously, who did the translation? FFVII isn't even in the original line )
Thank you Sesc, always good to have someone who makes you question these things.
He says he doesn't have any clue whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship for two years after FFVII ended - that's the two years prior to AC.
If Nomura doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship during that time, then the HA version of the HW scene is obviously NOT canon.
If the HA HW scene is not canon, then SE didn't make a decision about whether or not Cloud loves Tifa.
By extension, you could go on to assume that Cloud and Tifa's love life is "up to the player" since it wasn't decided by SE.
First of all, he is following that up with the line "What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like."
Now I know others will disagree, but I personally don't believe any couple was made canon in FFVII alone. Now notice he says "prior to AC." So it's only PRIOR to AC that he doesn't know. PRIOR to AC it wasn't shown so you can imagine how you like. DURING and AFTER AC, it IS talked about with things like the UO and the novellas. Plus there is a quote by Nomura in an inteview about AC where he says the movie "profoundly grasps the truth"
Nomura said:
"Concerning the relationship between the two [Cloud and Tifa], I feel the movie is able to profoundly grasp the truth. It is simple to explain in words, but..."
So obviously, after the movie, he felt differently. And notice he said "it's simple to explain in words but..." implying that it's shown without words... there's that "without words" again.
So much much thanks to Sesc for clearing that up and for making all of us think about these things.
And Honestly, I believe you could go up to Nomura and ask "Does Cloud have blonde hair." and he'd give an answer like this. I know he would, it's just who he is. Just because he says he wants you to come to your own conclusions doesn't mean they don't have a canon set in stone. He just doesn't care if you disagree with said canon. But in this topic, we're trying to discuss canon, right?
And by the way, that translation is exactly the same as the translation at http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?...#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB which you always said we didn't have a source for. Well, looks like we have the source now, thanks to Sesc. *hugs to Sesc*
It's the same cause that's where I got it from
I didn't mean to imply it was mine.
Because I clearly see an "I love you" between Cloud and Aerith in the hand reach scene and you don't. That's leaving it up to interpretation, which is leaving it "up to the player".
The feelings in the lifestream are just ones of the past right? And that Cloud is happy that his tactics to impress Tifa worked?
What you're not seeing is that he informed her in the Lifestream that he had a crush on her as a child in Nibelheim and wanted her to notice him as a child in Nibelheim. That does not mean that he has feelings for her now.
And present day Cloud would want to know this because he'd be happy to know he got her attention right? What feelings did Cloud find out from Tifa then?
I can see what you want it to mean, but I disagree - I don't think it means that.
But they DID become aware of feelings right? Cloud's past feelings, and.. what were the feelings from Tifa?
In the first place, I don't think the 10th AU says that they confirm feelings that they had in the Lifestream under the HW. However, even if it did say that, I don't think they said anything about loving one another during the Lifestream event. Tifa found out that Cloud had a crush on her as a kid, and Cloud found out that Tifa looked for him in the newspapers after her left - that's it.
I guess I was just sorta making the quotes flow. They discovered the feelings in the Lifestream so to me it stands to reason that these feelings were then discussed.
You've said that why doesn't Tifa know if Cloud loves her in CoT when she brings up "Do you love me?" as if couples never ask each other this. You also said why would they talk about their feelings of love for each other if they already knew from the lifestream.
So when people realize they love each other, it doesn't make sense to talk about it afterwards. Or is it just Cloud and Tifa that shouldn't be talking about it after realizing it?
Can we at least relate this to what's going on between Cloud and Tifa?
1) "Did you only tell them once that you loved them?" - Have Cloud and Tifa ever said they loved one another? If they did, it was in an optional scene under player control. They have NOT said it to one another during a non-optional scene that confirms that they said it in the optional scene.
You're missing the point, but you actually already answered this a few pages ago when you discussed something with Vendel. The point is the "Do you love me" scene isn't a point against the Highwind scene happening, because sometimes people need to hear from their lovers that they love them and so on.
2) Did you ever talk about your relationship? - Yes. Where do we hear Cloud and Tifa talk about their relationship? Seems to me that Cloud and Aerith talk about their relationship when Cloud says he wants to be forgiven, and Aerith tells him that it was enough that he came for her. So - if Cloud and Aerith talked about their relationship, are you saying that means they're in love?
No, again, you said that why would they talk about what they realized in the Lifestream? I was saying ,they realized it then talked about it, because people DO talk about their relationships.
3) Did you ever worry that they not love you if they grew distant? - Yes, and I've also worried that a guy's not romantically interested in me before he actually says that he loves me.
Well that's a valid concern... are you talking about Tifa here though? I thought she had no romantic interest in Cloud in the LA version. When did her feelings change?
4) Did you ever have a break up? if the answer is yes, what made you decide to break up? - Yes, but I've never broken up with someone that I didn't actually have a relationship with in the first place.
Okay - to me, that's an actual statement from SE making it canon. Where does SE ever make a statement like that about Cloud and Tifa loving one another?
So there's the caption at the end of the U20 Scenario's Story Playback section for X-2 beside a screenshot of Tidus and Yuna reunited that says, "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending."
So a screenshot and a caption in the U20's story playback saying "This happened." is enough to tell you that Tidus came back, but a screenshot and a caption in the U10's story playback saying "This happened" is NOT enough for the Highwind scene.. why?
And don't say "Because it's listed as having two versions." because so is Tidus' return/death, and don't say "Because I didn't see anything romantic between C and T" because if Tidus doesn't return, he stays un returned.
And why should we care? I don't care if Cloud likes Marlene more than Denzel. All I'm saying is that Aerith shows first, then the hand reach scene (Cloud and Aerith), then Tifa. That means Cloud thinks of Aerith twice before he ever thinks of Tifa.
That shows an obvious preference to me, especially after Sephiroth asks what Cloud cherishes most.
Idk I just think that the child his lover brought to him to raise would be more important to him than his friend's child. I mean Denzel is basically Cloud and Aerith's kid right? I think you've said this. He loves someone else's child more than he loves his own... that's just kind of messed up to me and I'm amazed it doesn't bother you.
Why doesn't this bother you? Can I just ask why it's okay for Cloud to love someone else's child more than the child his lover brought to him? Just kinda seems like he's snubbing Aerith's gift there.
However - something contradicts that. You say it says that Marlene's living with FOUR people, then it only names THREE people: Cloud, Tifa, and Denzel. So who's the fourth person she's living with? The only other person she lived with after the Meteor disaster was Barret - so he must be the fourth member of the family.
It's not a contradiction I'm just not sure how to word it. Marlene is the 4th person. I just really don't know how to word the translation, WHICH IS WHY I WISH TRES WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT IT, TRES... TRES ARE YOU LISTENING?
EDIT:
Okay I finally got a decent translation working on it with Sesc:
"After the meteor disaster, she lives with Cloud and Tifa, along with Denzel, as four people."
I apologize for the confusion but I'm glad you brought up that point, Anastar because I needed to correct my translation there
It's basically, after Meteor, she's living with Cloud, Tifa and moreover Denzel, and herself make 4 people. Then it says they're a family... but that's cause Barret's not there right?
