The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[DrakeClawfang]

So whenever something dramatic like Aerith's death happens, the reactions count for Real Cloud, the walking, talking, person you play the rest of the time only counts for when he says something dickish? That's very unfair.

I did not say that and you know it. Do not twist my words. I said I think that Aerith's death may have been a case of Cloud's true self coming to the surface because nothing else up until then had him freaking out so emotionally in such a manner, his surface persona couldn't cope with her loss and he had a breakdown, not on the scale as at the crater later on, but a breakdown nonetheless.

 

[Roger]

I did not say that and you know it. Do not twist my words.

Well what did you mean, he's not so emotional when Aerith did not just die in his arms, therefore his reaction to Aerith dying is someone else taking over momentarily?

I said I think that Aerith's death may have been a case of Cloud's true self coming to the surface because nothing else up until then had him freaking out so emotionally in such a manner, his surface persona couldn't cope with her loss and he had a breakdown, not on the scale as at the crater later on, but a breakdown nonetheless.

Yeah, he completely broke down at the crater. But clearly, when he was breaking down at the crater, Cloud's true self was never even close to come out since you know, his whole breakdown was over his misunderstanding of what he is given the information given to him (Tifa being dense, Hojo's classic forgetfullness concerning his non-Sephiroth test subjects, Sephiroth manipulating him with words), the voice knows exactly what Cloud, he, they really are, but that didn't help fake persona Cloud much at all.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I am in the 'head-voice' being Real Cloud camp. Sephy didn't have a freaking clue who Cloud is at first, iirc. And then he was all "Are you gonna join in the reunion?" ANd Cloud was like: "We didn't even graduate in the same class, dumbass." Add Sephy got butthurt and floated away before killing the prom queen. I may be mixing up the game and all the cheesy Halloween movies I've been watching lately... maybe.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So if I got a scan from the magazine would that fix things?

That shouldn't be necessary. FLAREGamer has had their translation of that page up for six years this month, and they have no bias in this matter that we've ever been made aware of. No reason not to trust that the interview exists.

In any case, since the interviewer seems to have already seen the movie before they talked to Nomura, it stands to reason that it took place after it was released. But, as has been said ad nauseum, Nomura isn't the final word on the matter, isn't incapable of changing his mind even if he were, actually seems to have changed his mind in the following year, and made that comment prior to the 10th AU and the U20s.

Ergo, the interview doesn't mean there could never be a canon couple any more than the date mechanics in the original game itself mean that.

 

[Dashell]

or it's like i said here:

First of all, he is following that up with the line "What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like."

Now I know others will disagree, but I personally don't believe any couple was made canon in FFVII alone. Now notice he says "prior to AC." So it's only PRIOR to AC that he doesn't know. PRIOR to AC it wasn't shown so you can imagine how you like. DURING and AFTER AC, it IS talked about with things like the UO (I mean this came out like a week before) and the novellas. Plus there is a quote by Nomura in an inteview about AC where he says the movie "profoundly grasps the truth"

Nomura wrote: "Concerning the relationship between the two [Cloud and Tifa], I feel the movie is able to profoundly grasp the truth. It is simple to explain in words, but..."

So obviously, after the movie or close to the end, he felt differently. And notice he said "it's simple to explain in words but..." implying that it's shown without words... there's that "without words" again.

メテオオ災害のあとは、クラウドとティファ、それにデンゼルの4人で生活。

"After the Meteor calamity, the foursome of herself, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel live together."

Ahh so I was close with my second attempt
"After the meteor disaster, she lives with Cloud and Tifa, along with Denzel, as four people."

Thanks Tres

 

[Celes Chere]

OH HIYA GUYZ

I am in the 'head-voice' being Real Cloud camp.

Me too... because I thought that was stated officially somewhere? O_o

 

[Marle]

Except there's actual official stuff saying the contrary? Aeris being in love with Cloud is not even debatable anymore why do people still try....

The same reason people try to say Tifa's love for him changed to that of a mother-son thing after she got 'rejected'.

The girl's feelings are not debatable. They love him. Romantically.

Which means they wanna have his babies, not have him be their baby.

 

[Roger]

Except there's actual official stuff saying the contrary? Aeris being in love with Cloud is not even debatable anymore why do people still try....

Yeah, i didn't have time for this in my argument.

Not even debatable?!

Whether or not Cloud is banging a 2 years deceased exgirlfriend of his first and best friend, rather then the girl he isliving with and raising children with is the subject of a hundred million post long discussion but Aerith's feelings are beyond question? Screw that.

 

[Zee]

Whether or not Cloud is banging a 2 years deceased exgirlfriend of his first and best friend, rather then the girl he isliving with and raising children with is the subject of a hundred million post long discussion but Aerith's feelings are beyond question? Screw that.

dude where the fuck did that even come from

if you're not gonna debate me based on what i'm actually arguing why are you even replying to me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, it really isn't debatable whether Aerith loved Cloud. One can debate why she loved him, how well she knew the real guy, whether she loved him for him or the Zack aspects of him -- but we've been told plenty enough times that she loved him.


Que: I'm quite confident Nomura was saying "in the two years prior to AC" with regard to Tifa and Cloud in a romantic relationship (i.e. the two years are from an in-universe perspective, not a real-world out-of-universe perspective). The way it's worded, it couldn't mean anything else.

 

[Marle]

Whether or not Cloud is banging a 2 years deceased exgirlfriend of his first and best friend, rather then the girl he isliving with and raising children with is the subject of a hundred million post long discussion but Aerith's feelings are beyond question? Screw that.

I think all that Zee meant was that Aerith loved Cloud, not that they have an actual relationship post mortem?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Zee

 

[Dashell]

Que: I'm quite confident Nomura was saying "in the two years prior to AC" with regard to Tifa and Cloud in a romantic relationship (i.e. the two years are from an in-universe perspective, not a real-world out-of-universe perspective). The way it's worded, it couldn't mean anything else.

oh I know that's what he's saying. But in their world, prior to AC, he didn't know... once AC happened in their world, he seemed to know. Or does that not make sense?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ah, yes. I get what you mean now. You're saying his comment is only about the two years prior to AC, not necessarily what came after.

I guess I get it, but I still feel like he was playing that coy game of his. Nojima certainly had different things in mind about those two years, at any rate.

 

[Dashell]

Well that's the thing, Nojima did but Nomura didn't. And they hadn't really discussed it either, probably.

So basically I think at the time of the interview, he didn't know about their relationship prior to AC... after the movie and what not, he obviously knew what DID happen because of other statements he made later on (you know the ones I mean )

 

[Roger]

Aeris being in love with Cloud is not even debatable anymore why do people still try....

if you're not gonna debate me based on what i'm actually arguing why are you even replying to me

You're absolutely right. I shouldn't have to debate you on whether or not something is debatable, since denying something is debatable should really give me good idea what that debate would be like.

Well that's the thing, Nojima did but Nomura didn't. And they hadn't really discussed it either, probably.

So basically I think at the time of the interview, he didn't know about their relationship prior to AC... after the movie and what not, he obviously knew what DID happen because of other statements he made later on (you know the ones I mean )

So when he was actually directing AC, the story originally just about Cloud and Tifa's homesituation, he wasn't actually aware of Cloud and Tifa's relationship status? I'd say he's just being evasive.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Well that's the thing, Nojima did but Nomura didn't. And they hadn't really discussed it either, probably.

Nojima hasn't exactly been quiet about his feelings on the Cloud x Tifa dynamic, so I'd wager that Nomura knew what was implied, but as you say, nothing prior to AC 'truly' confirms a "relationship". Loving one another, sure, but at the end of the game we had no idea what roads they all took. AC spells that out for us. Now, I seriously doubt they sat down and hashed out the 'love story' as, FFVII is no such thing.

However, Nomura is just as notorious for shooting down DIRECT story-telling also. Nojima was VERY specific in Tifa's role in KH, for example, but Nomura wanted players to think about her role. Of her opposition to Sephy's darkness. Irrelevant to LTD, but definitely relevant to how Nomura works. He wants the players to think. This does NOT mean that everything is open to interpretation. It means that he wants you to view things at different POVs, and although he will provide the answers, how you GET to them is entirely on you.


Rambling ramble is rambly...

 

[Zee]

I think all that Zee meant was that Aerith loved Cloud, not that they have an actual relationship post mortem?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Zee

You're right, bb. <3

You're absolutely right. I shouldn't have to debate you on whether or not something is debatable, since denying something is debatable should really give me good idea what that debate would be like.

See Tres' post. I'm not "denying" anything; there's enough official confirmation that Aeris loved Cloud that it's past the point of being debatable, and quite frankly it's silly to try.

 

[Roger]

See Tres' post. I'm not "denying" anything; there's enough official confirmation that Aeris loved Cloud that it's past the point of being debatable, and quite frankly it's silly to try.

Then give me quotes, or references. Don't make your entire reply "this is beyond debate" then get mad because I don't debate your point directly enough for you.

 

[Ryushikaze]

or it's like i said here:

First of all, he is following that up with the line "What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like."

Which is different from 'I have no idea or opinion on the subject', it's 'I don't care, and I'm not telling. Have fun speculating!' which is pretty consistent with what he said about AC and KH2.

Now I know others will disagree, but I personally don't believe any couple was made canon in FFVII alone. Now notice he says "prior to AC." So it's only PRIOR to AC that he doesn't know. PRIOR to AC it wasn't shown so you can imagine how you like. DURING and AFTER AC, it IS talked about with things like the UO (I mean this came out like a week before) and the novellas. Plus there is a quote by Nomura in an inteview about AC where he says the movie "profoundly grasps the truth"

Yes. But that's a movie he's the director of, and that Nojima wrote. There's no way they couldn't have known what the other was thinking there, especially since it started as a short about Tifa sending a message to Cloud. So, not knowing if they were a couple when the writer definitely had it in mind is unlikely. Neither of them having hashed out the details makes a lot more sense in that regards.

So obviously, after the movie or close to the end, he felt differently. And notice he said "it's simple to explain in words but..." implying that it's shown without words... there's that "without words" again.

Though he's partly responsible for expressing that truth himself in the movie, so why would he 'feel different' about the relationship when he's the one who had that truth in the film?

Me too... because I thought that was stated officially somewhere? O_o

It has been. U10, IIRC.

Ah, yes. I get what you mean now. You're saying his comment is only about the two years prior to AC, not necessarily what came after.

I guess I get it, but I still feel like he was playing that coy game of his. Nojima certainly had different things in mind about those two years, at any rate.

That's one reason I think Nomura is talking about having no idea or not caring about the specifics, rather than having no idea at all. He doesn't care, and it's not his department, but there's no way Nojima's backstory wouldn't have been expressed to Nomura at some point.

See Tres' post. I'm not "denying" anything; there's enough official confirmation that Aeris loved Cloud that it's past the point of being debatable, and quite frankly it's silly to try.

Yes, but there's enough official confirmation of which highwind scene is canon and that C/T are a romantic pair, and folks try and debate that too.

 

[Marle]

In CoLW, Aerith calls Cloud her koibito.

"Cloud was her friend, her beloved &#8212; a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected."

If she didn't love him at all, it wouldn't make sense for her to call him that. :T

 

[Ryushikaze]

In CoLW, Aerith calls Cloud her koibito.

"Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected."

If she didn't love him at all, it wouldn't make sense for her to call him that. :T

I think Minato is going more from the angle of 'what she loved was not the true Cloud' rather than 'she didn't love Cloud at all' idea.
A love despite not knowing, as opposed to because of her knowing.

 

[Marle]

I think Minato is going more from the angle of 'what she loved was not the true Cloud' rather than 'she didn't love Cloud at all' idea.
A love despite not knowing, as opposed to because of her knowing.

Ah, I see. But, in CoLW, she does know the real Cloud, doesn't she? :T It just doesn't make sense for Aerith to be calling Cloud/Zack wannabe her beloved. idgi.

 

[Zee]

Then give me quotes, or references. Don't make your entire reply "this is beyond debate" then get mad because I don't debate your point directly enough for you.

ninja'd!

In CoLW, Aerith calls Cloud her koibito.

"Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected."

If she didn't love him at all, it wouldn't make sense for her to call him that. :T

Yeah, the koibito line shuts the door on that case.

honestly i feel like it's almost insulting to everyone's intelligence to have to point out obvious stuff like this, especially considering how long the debate's actually been going on /shrug

Yes, but there's enough official confirmation of which highwind scene is canon and that C/T are a romantic pair, and folks try and debate that too.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing that and I'm not fightin' anyone else's battle for them, either.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Then give me quotes, or references. Don't make your entire reply "this is beyond debate" then get mad because I don't debate your point directly enough for you.

Just off the top of my head...
Both girls have romantic interest in Cloud who is none the wiser.
Aerith calls him her koibito.


Aerith loves Cloud. The hows and whys are up to debate, but she loves him. No matter if you believe she loved Cloud for Cloud or his Zack-ness or even a combination, the fact remains, she loved him. The LTD has never been about who the girls love--it's about who Cloud loves.


Edit: fucking ninja thread... I'm leaving my post, because I used the face, and fuck you guys, I'm awesome.

 

[Celes Chere]

quite frankly it's silly to try.

ZERITH IS CANON U POOP HEAD.