Quex
And your reply shows exactly why Clerith and Cloti can't agree.You consider certain things to be undeniable because SE has stated it. I consider certain things to be undeniable because SE has stated it.
I refuse to accept what you find as undeniable, and you refuse to accept what I find as undeniable.
The standards of the two sides is completely different. That's why we can't agree.
EDIT: And after seeing your edit, I respond by saying that I HAVE given you a response. Just because you won't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
======
Tres
First of all, Happy Clerith Day!
Yes, someone on youtube declared Oct. 18th as Clerith Day.
Ariadne said:
Chantara said:
Well, if you recognize that Cloud and Tifa continue to have issues like Nojima stated, you must realize that "mutual feelings" can refer to feelings other than love?
How are they going to have a discussion about -- much less mutual feelings about -- issues that haven't even cropped up yet?
Not the point. When did the issues start? IMO, Cloud and Tifa had issues with each other during the game, too. Wouldn't Nojima be aware of that?
The point is also that "mutual feelings" doesn't always have to mean "mutual love". If Cloud and Tifa both have issues with each other, then they can have "mutual issues" with each other during FFVII as well as after FFVII.
Ariadne said:
Also, again, there's no discussion of any mutual feelings in the low affection version. Quotes that mention mutual feelings cannot be discussing that version.
Of course they can. Once again, the date mechanism makes the feelings mutual between Cloud and whatever partner you pick. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then the affection of that partner increases for Cloud. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then Cloud's affection for that partner increases, too. Same thing happens in reverse if Cloud
doesn't act nicely to the partner. The partner's affection for Cloud decreases, and Cloud's affection for that partner decreases.
Therefore, if you get the Low Affection version, Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud and Cloud has a low affection rating for Tifa. Therefore, their feelings are mutual in the Low Affection scene.
Ariadne said:
And, again for this too, the 10th AU's story summary even shows a screenshot exclusive to the high affection version.
And I understand the 10th AU story summary has a picture of the Clerith date scene next to the summary of the date sequence. Does that mean the Clerith date is canon?
Ariadne said:
More than that, you've called the scene cut and dry evidence that the high affection scene didn't happen. So now it's more that "either interpretation is possible," and the position you've been putting forth up until now is actually more based on "it sounds to me like she's never been told in the first place" than something cut and dry?
*drags out my interpreter* Yes, it's open to interpretation. It does indeed sound
to me like she never heard it in the first place, which would mean
to me that the HA HW scene never happened. Other people see it that way, too.
Does that mean that it's cut and dry? No.
I recognize that you and other people interpret it differently. I am not trying to force my interpretation on you. IMO, SE has made both interpretations possible. Therefore, it's open to interpretation.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
How does that confirm he's in love with her NOW? I'm no longer in love with a giuy I was in love with in college. Same with a guy I had a crush on in sixth grade. So how does a distant crush on someone he barely knew mean that he's still in love now?
Once again, he was talking about his feelings for her as a kid. What he felt for her as a kid doesn't mean he feels the same way seven years later. That's no confirmation.
Going back to the U20 Scenario's story summary again, the part about the Lifestream sequence says "Cloud reveals his feelings for Tifa in the mental world" (精神世界でクラウドは、ティファへの想いを明かす
beside a screenshot of Cloud's line about wanting Tifa to notice him. Notice that it doesn't say past feelings. Just feelings.
But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her
now, except on an optional basis.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
The CC Ultimania said that Cloud was dimly in love, which means a crush. Tifa said they didn't know one another that well during the Lifestream event, so they barely knew one another. Therefore, it was a distant crush.
Ugh. We've been over this before. "Honoka" refers to the clarity with which something is observable, not its potency. The passage is saying he secretly fell in love with her.
1) I've heard a different translation. The translation I always hear is "dimly in love" and that's from a person who grew up in Japan. 2) Once again, even if we go with your translation and it says that he "secretly fell in love" with her as a child, that doesn't mean he feels the same way as an adult.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Keep calling me darling, and you'll start rumors about us.
"Rumors" implies they aren't true.
No. Really? >_<
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Trouble is, those two lines are in separate paragraphs - at least, according to the scan I was given. I was taught that separate ideas went in separate paragraphs.
Don't even try it.
Shall I look it up for you?
PRECEPT II.--Treat different topics in separate paragraphs, and distinct sentiments in separate sentences.
Source:
http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Grammar-of-English-Grammars48.html
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
As I read it, that means that Cloud and Tifa spending the night together COULD be the reason that Cloud's acting nice to Yuffie, but it's nothing definite. Like I said before, it could just as easily be that he's happy because the rest of Avalanche has returned for the fight in the Northern Crater.
Yes, those lines are just randomly thrown on the page, Annie. You're right. They couldn't have been meant to have any relation to each other. They're just floating around in a void where they, separately, have no meaning.
Okay, glad you agree. And the name is Aly, not Annie.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
See? You agree - it would be clearer that way.
Actually, I said "it couldn't be any clearer."
Just for clarity, it couldn't be any clearer my way or your way?
Anastar said:
In the same place I see a discussion of what supposedly takes place in the HA version. It's not said in the HA version, so why does it have to be said in the LA version?
Ariadne said:
Of course it's not said in the high affection version. We've been told that they communicated feelings without words. Christ.
Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?
If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?
If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
If you're wondering where I got the idea that they only talk about friendship in the LA version, I get that idea from several things: 1) SE
calls it the
Low Affection Version, which means
no romance. 2) Cloud and Tifa are obviously still friends if you get the LA version, so it can't mean the affection level is so low that they now despise one another. 3) The Low Affection version is described by SE as being "apathetic" and short. You can find that meaning in the meaning of "
apathetic" if you promise to look at the second meaning as well as the first:
ap a thet ic ~adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic
Now, look at the synonyms:
1. unfeeling, impassive, cool.
2. uninterested, unconcerned.
Now, once again - we know that Cloud and Tifa remain friends, even if you get the LA version, right? Therefore, the meanings of
indifferent,
unconcerned,
uninterested,
unresponsive, and
unfeeling have to pertain to their romantic feelings for one another.
Furthermore, if the High Affection version is romantic, then the Low Affection version would obviously be unromantic. You can even use your decoder ring to figure it out, if you want.
All well and good, but you're ignoring that Tifa loves Cloud. The notion of her being uninterested in Cloud romantically is, well, crap.
You're also making up a scene that
doesn't fucking happen regardless of what the affection rating is. Seriously, show me this scene you keep talking about where Tifa absurdly says she's not interested in Cloud, and where he says he's not interested in her.
The scene does not exist.
Then why does SE
say it exists?
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.
Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE
says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE
says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Once again, I remind you of the quote given to us by Sesc on this page:
http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086
It's Nomura saying that he has no clue on whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship going between FFVII and AC. That same quote is cited here:
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB
And once again I remind you that Nomura's notorious for being a shit stirring provocateur; that he can change his mind; that he doesn't have the final say to begin with; that a statement from him a year later contradicts what he said in that interview; that Ultimania statements that came years after that interview would overwrite what he said there even if he wasn't playing coy; and that even if he had the final say and meant exactly what he said at that time, that doesn't mean something indefinite at one point in time could not become something definite later.
Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
And now I'm not ready to accept that because people have told me different versions of what evidence is actually available.
And what have they told you? And have you actually looked into it at all yourself, or are you still just basing all of your arguments on what others tell you?
First, I heard from you that Shadow was seen after the optional death scene. I thought you meant that he was seen in the game after the optional death scene. I accepted that as proof that his survival was canon. Then someone here (I think it was Ryu, but I'm not sure) said that no - Shadow is only seen in the story summary after the optional death scene, not in the game. That's when I switched my mind.
Have I tried to look into on my own? No. I have played FFVI, but that was back in about 1998 and I only played it once. I frankly do not remember the optional death scene. I also do not have the FFVI Ultimania, nor do I want to get the FFVI Ultimania. I also do not read Japanese, and I believe the FFVI Ultimania is only available in Japanese. Therefore, I have to rely on translations from other people.
Third, I frankly don't think this is nearly as big a deal as you're making out of it. Something should have to happen in a game before it is confirmed. As far as how SE is able to validate something in text, I'll have to see it before I say whether I think it qualifies as confirmation.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Yep, it means jackshit when we have the director of Advent Children saying that he doesn't know whether Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC, and when we have pages in the U20 and in the FFVII UO saying there are two versions of the Highwind scene that depend on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
Right. 'Cause that same director contradicting himself a year later is not something worth noting.
And the actual writer of the movie contradicting him is not worth noting. And several story summaries that came out years after that interview aren't worth noting.
And Nomura being one of the writers of the movie isn't important, either:
"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)
So Nojima didn't write it by himself. Nomura was involved in the writing, too. Never mind that Nomura also said that the movie was left open to interpretation in the Director's Commentary that accompanied the JP version of AC:
Nomura: "AC is a film made by 'Japanese people'. In Hollywood, I think there's this trend that the meaning of every scene has to be clearly shown, but this film isn't necessarily like that. The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we've made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that's still another possible answer. I guess 'comparing answers' could be one of the ways to enjoy the film. I think AC is the kind of film that people will want to talk about when they've watched it."
Never mind that the FFVII UO and the 20th AU talk about how the HW scene deviates into two conditions according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. Never mind that the HW scene picture on the FTOIL page is labeled with a page number where that Deviation is discussed. Never mind that there is also a picture of CloudxAerith on the FTOIL page. Never mind that CoL White, written by Nojima, says that
"Cloud is the woman's friend and lover". Never mind that the original commercial for FFVII has the title "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith.
I could go on, but you insist that all the Clerith evidence proves nothing. Well, I insist that all the Cloti evidence proves nothing.
Ariadne said:
You follow a concept of establishing canon that literally no one else in the fucking world follows. A statement once made can never be overwritten according to you. That's not how canon works at all.
And you hang out here all the time where people agree with you. Well, guess what? Where I hang out all the time, everyone agrees with
me instead of you.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Tell ye what. I'll stop with the accusations when you stop with the accusations - okay? Next time anyone says anything like this, I'm just ignoring it. I can't be bothered wasting my time with this pettiness.
Yeah, I just wanted to quote this because it leads nicely into the completely dishonest thing you did immediately afterward.
Since you're starting with accusations again, I'm going to end this for tonight. I'm tired of listening to you guys use insults as proof that I'm wrong. Frankly, you all sound like bullies on a grade school playground.
