What do you mean, "you people"?
What do YOU mean, you people?
I think after FFVII, that's what SE made her out to be. Never mind that she managed herself fine in the slums and threatened to rip off something special from Don Corneo.
The whole angelic thing is a bit of crap.
Aerith taking on a greater responsibility post- death or not being quite so savvy as a kidling aren't the same as making her other than the snarky slum savvy gal she was in the OG.
OTOH, Benny Matsuyama called Aerith 'innocent' in Dismantled, so, there's that, but he's not SE.
That's true. I've always been kind of confused as to what "great burden" he meant about Aerith though. Maybe because she's a Cetra?
Among other things, definitely.
For now, I plan on only responding to some parts of Anastar's response, but if Tres wishes to wash his hands of the crazy, I'll sub in.
But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her now, except on an optional basis.
What part of past progressive do you not understand?
Oh, right, the part where it might favor C/T.
Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?
If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?
I hope you realize that having recognized and admitted the -conversation- is apathetic directly undercuts your argument that the quote says the people are apathetic.
If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.
But the quote about the LA version does not say what you insist it says.
Then why does SE say it exists?
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega[/FONT]
If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.
This is a non-sequitor of the highest order.
If the conversation is apathetic, the conversation is either A: Lacking in feelings, or B: 'Disinterested'. But this refers to the conversation itself. It is not a descriptor of the entities involved in the conversation.
And SE SAYS that the option to let Shadow die exists to. But it did not happen in the official story.
Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.
But SE does not SAY what you say they are saying. You are taking what they are saying, and insisting upon additional factors which are not present.
Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?
Because you should act with decency and honesty even when you feel your opponent is not. I see you are not willing to act in such a fashion.
First, I heard from you that Shadow was seen after the optional death scene. I thought you meant that he was seen in the game after the optional death scene. I accepted that as proof that his survival was canon. Then someone here (I think it was Ryu, but I'm not sure) said that no - Shadow is only seen in the story summary after the optional death scene, not in the game. That's when I switched my mind.
No one said anything of the sort, especially noy me. In fact, MULTIPLE TIMES I have told you point blank, and in very simple terms, that Shadow can either live OR die, as I did in the post I will now quote;
You are flatly misunderstanding this then.
We have a divergent path. Shadow can A: DIE or B: LIVE.
IF A: Shadow VANISHES FROM THE GAME ENTIRELY.
If B: Shadow appears later in the game.
Story summary shows us events, with screenshots, of Shadow being recruited and fighting the final boss. Likewise the FF7 summary shows us, with screenshots, which version of the HW scene's divergent path actually happened.
Which still does not change that there can- and is- an official, IF/THEN irrelevant outcome.
IF I leave early, THEN Shadow dies.
IF I stay, THEN he lives.
Shadow lives.
We know the outcome. IF/THEN is sort of beside the point.
Shadow ONLY vanishes from the game IN THE BRANCHING PATH WHERE HE DIES. In the branching path WHERE HE LIVES, he can be seen again, in game. Without telling us which path was selected, we are shown a scene that can ONLY arise in the path branching from the selection resulting in his being alive.
Likewise, The Memorial Album and the U10 (And the important scenes pages of the U20) show us the path that branches to what we call the 'high highwind' scene in the story summary.
Have I tried to look into on my own? No. I have played FFVI, but that was back in about 1998 and I only played it once. I frankly do not remember the optional death scene. I also do not have the FFVI Ultimania, nor do I want to get the FFVI Ultimania. I also do not read Japanese, and I believe the FFVI Ultimania is only available in Japanese. Therefore, I have to rely on translations from other people.
Interesting that you flatly refuse refuse to consider the words of three Japanese speakers in this forum, simply because they tell you things you don't want to hear.
Why, that reminds me of someone else who was treated in such a manner.
Third, I frankly don't think this is nearly as big a deal as you're making out of it. Something should have to happen in a game before it is confirmed. As far as how SE is able to validate something in text, I'll have to see it before I say whether I think it qualifies as confirmation.
As has been mentioned SEVERAL times now, these things DO happen in a game. Unless you mean 'the confirmation must happen in a game' in which case your double standard is once again showing.
And Anastar, calling you on your flimflammery isn't bullying. It's calling a spade a spade. Like we told Aerbear, it's really hypocritical to get in arms about being insulted and then do the same yourself.
And Anastar, can you PLEASE give me a page number for the "Seems to be something between them" quote? I want to find it but I swear it's not in Aerith's profile, are you sure it's not in Cloud's? Maybe I'll just pass along the pages to someone with better Japanese knowledge.
Tres, Ryu, Sesc? Do you know of this quote in the UO?
Nein. It rings no bells.
Okay this post is for Anastar, ClerithRaven, Rena and any other Cleriths out there. Please could you guys just answer yes or no for me?
I want to talk to you about this.
Just answer me these two questions.
Quex, are you familiar with the Monty Python Cheese shop sketch? If not, go watch it. You're John Cleese asking for Cheese right now.
1. I simply don't see it as romantic: them being dramatic over not having anyone or anywhere to go home to; them talking about what transpired in the Lifestream event; if the "sex logic" was to be followed, Tifa practically initiated the thought; if we don't follow the "sex logic", then what did they do to reveal mutual feelings? They talked from dusk to dawn. About what? Who in here knows?
As dusk AND dawn, actually.
And about romantic things, one would presume.
Because even if you don't SEE it as romantic, that's what we're told the feelings are about. Romantic ones. Ones of desire, etc.
2. Uhm. He was a kid who thought that the only way he could get a girl to notice him was to be famous. Said girl actually paid more attention to him AFTER he said that, and even strong-armed him into a promise of acting like a 'knight-in-shining-armor". That is nowhere near romantic for me. Cloud could've initiated the promise himself, but he didn't.
But he did- and does- hold it to be of vital importance. He even references it in ACC and DoC, apologizing for his lateness in coming to the rescue.
Keep in mind that this is my OPINION, MY OWN REASONS for thinking so.
What's the purpose of asking us this btw?
Kind of to establish if you would take SE at their word or not. Which it appears you aren't.
And as you can see, none of it seems to suffice for you. None seems to satisfy your standards.
Here's the trick- they aren't our standards. They are your standards applied back at you.
Wait... So you get to ask us for inarguable evidence, but we can't do the same?
Frankly, I've been VERY honest with you here. And since I've been reading that people think Anastar has been dishonest, could I please bother you to point out one which was COMPLETELY dishonest in your opinion?
She's provided you with evidence, from SE, that says Cloud loved Tifa, and can confirm mutual romantic feelings with her. That's what she means by inarguable.
I will note, that intentionally or not, CR, you changed the standard of evidence. Quex was asking for a clear statement. You turned around and demanded action. This standard bites you in the butt as well, I just want you to realize you did change the standard.
Even when we think for ourselves, we cannot deny the established facts.
To discount those quotes, especially the ones refering to confirmation, is denying facts.
Yes, I’ve read them, but I should’ve thought some people here can’t see past before their nose.
And there's that charming personality that'll win you friends and influence people again.
Why can’t I say she’s clingy? That’s seriously, honestly how I see her…
Congratulations, then, you see her incorrectly. Glad we got that out of the way.
oh! And pretty much of a martyr too.
Definition of MARTYR
1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
3: victim; especially : a great or constant sufferer
So, which of those describes Tifa again, exactly? And why's it bad to be BE a martyr?
But ok, I get it…you love her and your asking me to respect her character and not say rude comments about her. Ok, I can do that.
No, we're asking you to work within the actual framework of the narrative and the actual examples established therein.
Did I EVER say you do?!
OMG! Venting people in another forum?! Now you’re gonna tell me Cloti’s are saints and never ever say anything wrong about random Cleriths…once again I never said YOU.
Ah, but here's the trick- we never pretended we don't insult people or said we don't- I, for the record, try and direct my insults at specific people. Works better for me- we said that it is hypocritical to COMPLAIN that people are being insulting here, while engaging in insulting these people elsewhere.
I don’t want to expose stupid arguments…it will offend the people who post them .
In other words, you are full of noise and bluster but little else.
I wasn’t being passive-aggressive. I was blantly aggressive towards Tifa character.
And the English Language.
But this isn't a defense against the point. Being aggressive towards a character does not invalidate the pairing or validate the one you'd like to invalidate.
Thanks for pointing it out! You must be one serious case of supreme intelligence.
Y'know, I totally am, thanks for recognizing that.
But putting your sarcastic compliment aside, you have no response to the comment on the strawmen arguments? Duly noted, then.
When did I do that exactly?
Calling Tifa clingy, counter to the evidence and the words of the Creators.
There's a lot of the above. If you mean 'when did I do that exactly,' the problem is you did not hate a character for the things they have done.
Your whole explanation about the “WE” and not “I” is an example.
Except that the explanation is entirely true. The original Japanese version of the text contains zero identifying pronouns, and the Ultimania Omega says that Cloud and Tifa are discussing meeting someone. It must therefore be a two way conversation, with Cloud informing and then Tifa suggesting. In this context, the personal pronoun being 'we' would fit better over 'I', the translation used in the same translation of the game game where 'attack while it's tail is up! It'll counterattack' 'this guy are sick' 'so that how you'll fool them'/ 'so that's how you fooled them', off course, Tseng being 'done in' and several others are found.
Why bother with someone so twisted, quote minded and dishonest?
While I'm not aware that anyone I've argued with has THEMSELVES been quote mined, I engage in those who twist, quote mine, and treat the evidence and my arguments with dishonesty for the same reason skeptics bother with homeopathists who twist, quote mine, and dishonestly use scientific studies- to highlight those actions and hold up truth and honesty as an example.
If it’s like you say and you’re absolutely sure of your perspective why let it get to you.
For the same reason that someone absolutely convinced that homeopathists are full of it would argue against homeopathy- to highlight the truth and prevent others from being hoodwinked by the lies.
