The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Splintered]

That's an interestingly specific percentage you have there. Where are you getting 80% struggle from? And to be frank, life is full of struggles, not just relationships.

I disagree! Cloud/Tifa is about 40% struggles, 10% sexiness, 15% mooching 5% dramatic angst (with appropriate background music), and 30% unconditional love.

That 40% seems high until you consider Cloud's life is about 80% struggle (50% identity issues 30% guilt and 20% because he thinks angst looks cool), after all his last name IS Strife, and all relationships he has will have inflated percentages of struggle, not just Tifa's. Unless he goes out with Barret who I am sure will just knock him on his ass 85% of the time, thus eliminating the emo mood.

But regardless, Cloud/Aerith will have about a 90% struggle rate because I'm about 100% sure she's dead, and there's only about a 5% chance Nojima will get drunk and suddenly think it's a good idea to resurrect Aerith (but not Zack of course, he's 99% IN THE PAST)

It's also false to believe that the rate of the conflicts between Tifa/Cloud will be at the same rate of AC/C and CoT in which 95% conflict was in the showing because these were extreme circumstances that were meant to focus on conflict,a fterall who wants to watch a movie when 98% of it is with the character's having already overcome their difficulties and-

SOMEONE STOP ME, THIS JOKE IT'S GOING TOO FAR AND HAS CRASHED AND BURNED IN MY UNFUNNY

Also, don't argue Anastar if she's not in the debate atm, I don't pull up random people from Naruto fandom and argue how much of a cool guy they are in the middle of a semi relevant thread.

 

[Celes Chere]

Despite numerous quotes from SE stating exactly the opposite…damn those liars!

Uh... where? There are plenty of quotes saying Aerith was attracted to Zack in the beginning. Hell,if you get Aerith's date she is saying how she now realizes Cloud is different and things are different. But first she says "At first" and then continues to explain how she first was reminded of Zack upon seeing Cloud.

 

[aerbear]

Anastar is under no time constraint to respond here. That means exactly what it says. She may take as long as she requires to respond, but we would appreciate the courtesy of complete, honest responses.
Many of the posters in this thread are constrained by job and life.

She's trying, but like I said, she's got her hands full enough as it is. I'm not sure if she'll bother posting here again after that, and I wouldn't blame her.

Some people here are being really welcoming and accepting, but it's things like that that make us not want to come here. Calling her those things is the same as calling us those things, because she's a friend and we back her 100%.

Optimus Prime: "We're locked inside an enemy prison surrounded by countless Decepticons bent on our destruction... It's purely a matter of perspective." WOAH, get 'outta here Optimus and your well-said words of wisdom!

After you do that, we can go over all the times folks have been rude in their responses to me and my friends.

Okay.

"We've have no reason to think" (omit either the 've or the have in that sentence, BTW, to make it grammatically correct)

cuts against many of the arguments that have been presented, which operate on assumptions of what could happen, but which we have no reason to assume are true.
In this case, though, I would argue we DO have a reason to think they'd talk again. Tifa was interested. Cloud was interested. Even if they were oblivious to each other- and they were, don't get me wrong- they'd want to be near each other and spend time around their crushes.

The only thing mentioned has been the night at the water tower. Cloud didn't even know Tifa was interested, and it didn't sound like she knew how he'd been in those months, only that she wondered.

Even if we discount any meaning of their childhood, Cloud has spent at least an extra week with Tifa as he recovered at the 7th heaven. More likely a month or two. As far as Cloud knowing both women, that's weight in Tifa's camp again.

Not much, considering the first conversation they have in the game has Cloud about ready to leave if he doesn't get enough gil.

If he didn't know Tifa well enough to love her despite years of knowledge about her, how well could get get to know Aerith in two really distracting weeks?

He watched Tifa from afar his entire childhood. How much do you think he could've loved her? They describe it as "dim", right? Barely there or obscured, however you want to see it, they weren't friends. So I don't think his childhood feelings are concrete or say anything about his current feelings, because he currently knows her now but he didn't before.

That's also a lot of feeling for a girl Tifa knew two weeks. And Tifa has her own feelings towards Aerith, and unless we're being really asinine, also won't forget her. No one in the party will never forget her.

Yes, I agree. But he specified Cloud, as if his feelings are different than everyone else's. He carries a heavy guilt that the rest of them don't, yes, but why? Because he cared about her a lot, in one way at least. It's cohesive enough to be a legitimate belief

You realize you're still arguing against your INITIAL argument, right? By pointing out that the time you get to spend with someone doesn't matter, you're arguing against the initial point of Cloud not knowing Tifa well enough to love her.

Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other during their childhood, I'd say it's more probable they didn't speak at all while he was trying to join SOLDIER (she asked Zack if he knew him, it didn't sound like she knew the truth), and they didn't seem to get close in the week or so before the game started.

Cloud and Aerith got to know each other on an equal level by the time she died. They became friends.

The feelings were still there too. That's my point. Not merely memories of those feelings, but those feelings. We're told the feelings are still held by whole Cloud.

The way I saw it is that they're old feelings currently withheld by his false memories.

But having more that drives him doesn't take away that Tifa is still a driving factor in his life.

Of course. She's a loved one. But I mean that Cloud isn't the same kid who wanted to join SOLDIER to be like the great Sephiroth and get Tifa's attention.

So you agree he knows and there's a definite answer?

I think the guy's got an opinion, but he hasn't made it definite.
Tifa is still introduced as Cloud's childhood friend in AC Complete and Dirge of Cerberus. Nothing saying a romantic relationship is or isn't happening. He's still leaving it open. After Advent Children came out, he said he "didn't know" if they were in a relationship, so assuming he wasn't lying, during the development of the movie his intention couldn't have been on their romantic relationship. So I think when he ends up saying the movie tells the truth of their relationship - a romantic one, he claimed he didn't know of when he was making it - I'd say that's still leaving it open for us to decide.

Besides, it's possible he still "doesn't know" about their romantic relationship, and was touching on a different relationship.

Actually, he didn't. He said the staff have their own answers. That is definite. He said that viewers have interpretations that are possible answers. The interpretations of the viewer CAN be correct, but the answers of the creators ARE correct.

He said they have their own answers, and if our interpretations are different, they're still possible answers. He seemed to be putting their answers and ours on the same level.

"Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought." - Nomura

This was some time ago, I understand. But I think we can agree he's still got this mentality. He isn't saying for sure. He's still leaving us room.

We don't mind different interpretations. We just expect them to be sufficiently supported by the weight of the facts.

And we have enough. I'll get to that in a minute

Could you please provide some support here for 'they did it to give us a choice?' Because that 'choice' gave us the option to go with Barret or Yuffie, and we also have the choice to ignore Yuffie and Vincent.

We have the choice to ignore Tifa and Aerith, too.

You say you have reasonable cause. Can you explain why your cause is reasonable? What evidence leads you to think that C/A is a reasonable suspicion, more reasonable than a filial relationship?

Ahh, gladly.

You see, a lot of people are saying Cloud only felt guilt towards Aerith after he became "himself", and it can't be love.

"This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself..."

"It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth."

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself."

So, we get by this that Cloud is feeling very guilty in between the ending of FFVII and Advent Children. But I think people are losing sight of why he's feeling guilty. Like it's been said, context provides context.

"And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him..."

He feels guilt because he cares about Aerith. She's a loved one too. And it's reaffirmed by these statements.

"She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." -Maiden of the Planet

"She was a little happy that he thought so much of her..." -Maiden of the Planet

"Transporting mail around the world meant Cloud was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again." -Case of Tifa

"Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who Cloud will never forget/is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life." -Dirge of Cerberus game manuals

"It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital." -Reunion Files

*HK-47 voice* Conclusion: Cloud cares about Aerith.
The how's and why's are up for grabs, but that doesn't change that he cares about her, and he doesn't just feel guilt for her.

Now, Tifa

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had developed a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in Advent Children, two years after Aerith had departed the world."- Case of Tifa

"She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated..." - 10th AU

These two things wouldn't have been included for nothing. I'd say there are two ways to interpret this - that Tifa is jealous, or that Tifa notices that "something between" Cloud and Aerith. What we're saying is, our interpretation isn't totally unreasonable because it's one thing to be jealous of another girl, and it's another when that girl is dead. At that point, she couldn't be jealous of their relationship, only Cloud's feelings. If she can see something, can you understand how we've been seeing that too?

We're told that Cloud cares about Aerith in much of the same manner we're told he and Tifa can exchange feelings. These statements are vague enough because we're looking for details not in those statements (excluding optional scenes - this includes "feelings of desire.")

Canonically, the most Aerith is introduced as is someone that Cloud has engraved in his heart. Canonically, the most Tifa is introduced as is a very important woman to him. At the end of the day, they're both canonically introduced as friends. But we know they're also love interests. And it's our interpretations that tell which girl we think he loves, if he loves either, or if he loves both.

You've got your "feelings" quotes, which you interpret to mean romantic feelings and we interpret to mean feelings of support/friendship. We've got our quotes about Cloud's motives, which you interpret to mean guilt/friendship and we interpret to mean romantic feelings. Our beliefs are backed up in some way, whether you agree or not. Cloud is never definitively said to romantically love either girl in a non-optional setting. So, based on these "mutual feelings" Cloud and Tifa quotes, and Cloud's feelings alone about Aerith, we're determining from our own reasoning what they mean. Because that's what SE wants us to do. So that means nothing is definite. Yet.

There you go, sports. Reasonable cause that Cloud might love either girl. We're given blanks and we fill in the rest on our own.

Cloud and Tifa are canon, my lady balls.

More you forgot to remove '2k'

Guess my sense of humor really is this bad
Nomura 1k97, sheesh

 

[Wolfmania]

@Rena:

Cloud dfrifting away from his familiy? If he ever was, It was during AC/C where in his own contorted mind he thought that was the right thing to do. Heck, he was even motivated by fear:

"The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud..." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/cloud.php

You say Aerith made Cloud at peace, yet how can that be if all the time he lived at her church was in torment?

Cloud wasn't dfrifting away from his family because he was sad or longing for Aerith. He did because he was finally happy. And of course his immense guilt over Zack/Aerith's death(more so on the latter as he promised Zack indirectly he would protect Aerith).

In his own convoluted mind, it was the right thing to do.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

But it was also said that "from another angle, there is hope... perhaps" - wouldn't that mean there is still hope for a marriage/romantic relationship, even if it's just "perhaps"?

i don't think.....................that ff7's world..........................lets you marry dead people............................................

but I believe the quote is referring to the fact that there's still hope strikes me more as the fact that even though cait sith says he'll lose something dear, he's still gonna beat sephiroth in the end

 

[Rena]

Ignoring that this is an insult and a bad one for the sake of argument, what 'reality' other than the reality that we all share are you speaking of, and how does her fantasy speculation more fit the FF7 world more than this 'reality'
Inquiring minds want to know if you have any substance to the accusation.

Because your “Reality” is a speculation itself given the fact that 14 years later, neither Cloti or Clerith has been officially declared canon.

But he was there most of the time. He was spending time with the family. He was happy with them.

He was there physically. Emotionally the boy’s a mess and a messed up person willl HARDLY compromise.

That's an interestingly specific percentage you have there. Where are you getting 80% struggle from? And to be frank, life is full of struggles, not just relationships.

Yes, life’s a struggle, not a constant manifestation of unconformity and awkwardness like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.

But if he does these admittedly stupid things with his family in mind. It makes him a dumbass, not self centered.

His justification may be the sake of his family but in the end, actions speak louder than words and his behavior is still that of hiding the truth, running away, neglecting his family and Tifa’s feelings and creating an entire world behind their back.

Yeah, this argument didn't hold water back when it was the 'Butting into the private promised land thoughts' argument, and really doesn't hold water now.

I still think it’s funny.

It's not a tactic. You're not a native speaker. The dictionary is a more objective reference, and I doubt we're going DSMIV here.

Exactly same meaning, just different language, and no, don’t worry, I’m not into DSM-IV.

So, you're not responding to the definitions I put forth at all. Because none of what I cited mentioned 'constantly wallowing in guilt' or even guilt, and even if you're arguing that that is pain and degradation, it makes no case for -taking gratification- in it, which is the most important part.

Trust me, no one will ever come out and say they enjoy being f*up. However, they do enjoy it or otherwise, they’d change their behavior and even if they come out and say it, as I said before, actions speak louder than words and the simple fact that they’re still engaged in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it.

Again 'finds pleasure in' self denial. That does mean she'd ENJOY it.

Seriously, you're wrong in your usage of Masochist. Please accept this and move on.

No, I won’t accept it ‘cause you’re not giving me ANY fact to prove me otherwise.

Congratulations, you're trying to argue with a fact now. And by introducing a tangent to the original point. Concession of original point accepted, unless you'd like to explain how this non sequitor has anything to do with 'And asking for all these traits Cloud just doesn’t seem to have to manifest,'

She’s still waiting for her knight in shinning armor to come and save her but Cloud’s no knight in shinning armor, he’s much more like a hobo.

You accept this, but not Masochist. Odd.

That should say something.

I think what I'm saying right now is that you're missing the point I was trying to make.
Also, Aerith and X. It's Cloud's name you replace. And no, I wasn't saying she was promiscuous either. I said she had an impact on everyone beyond simple friendship.

Yes, I misunderstood.

However, I don’t see everyone else dealing with her death in such an unhealthy way as Cloud does.

How he did it, yes. Cloud was planning on charging in. The intent was all his.

And this proves my point by exposing his lack of initiative when someone supposedly so dear and special to him is in danger, however when it came to Aerith, he did not hesitate to make a move.

I did. Punishing onesself doesn't make you a masochist automatically.

What does it make you, then?

Justify deserving what makes him happy with the very thing that makes him happy?
That's tautologous .

Exactly, normal people do it or no body ever told you that we in fact as human beings deserve to be happy?

Enjoying what actually makes you happy is a very good indicator of mental health.

It's Vincent, actually. And Tifa, Aerith, and even Marlene helped as well. But you know, Cloud did actually start just plain trying again when Tifa asked him to.

Yes, it was Vincent with an entire dialogue focused on the guilt he felt because of Aerith and most importantly, his meeting with her.

Everyone else was merely a contributor.

You're joking, right?
There's no quote saying Cloud didn't remind Aerith of Zack, numerous quotes that do, and several that go so far as to say she fell for him because of this assocation.

Ok, let’s just ignore that they’ve clearly said that despite the similarities, Aerith could see right through Cloud’s personality and like him for who he was.

The Null hypothesis is 'wedunno,' kiddo. And you never prove it.

Your statement holds no truth, Sir. Enough proof.

Apart from the alternate position being validated by the evidence.

“Because I say so” is no evidence.

You've pulled that hyperbolic percentage out twice now. Why?

Forget the percentage.

Struggles in their relationship > happiness in their relationship.

It’s the same.

Him knowing what masochism is and what masochists are.

Ok, I want his explanation because I’m not into dogmatism.

Then perhaps you should consider not posting insulting one liners in the future.

Also, before I forget, please do respond to this section of my previous post to me that you ignored.

To atone for his failing. To maybe, just maybe, get a cure. Because Cloud started out looking for a cure. He stayed away when it looked like he was going to die without it. Cloud felt he wasn't worthy of his family and the happiness they brought him. He had to do something to be worthy of them, or be forgiven so that he could return to them.
Cloud isn't looking for someone else to comfort him, he's looking for something to allow or justify his own happiness to himself.

Part of why he initially takes in Denzel is because you can't bring back the dead, but you can take care of those still living. Denzel is Cloud's atonement, the act of justification which allows him to feel happy without feeling guilty. And when Denzel's sickness comes to a head, Cloud looks for a cure- he's not going to fail this time. And then he gets the disease himself. He can't face his family being a burden and a failure. He doesn't want to force them to take care of unworthy him. So he seeks whatever he can to release his guilt to return home.

At the absolute root of Cloud's story in AC/C is that happiness of his family life makes him feel guilty, and that he must DO something in order to deserve his happiness. But he's also afraid of screwing things up and ruining everything. Cloud's turning point comes when he realizes that succeeding isn't the requirement. It's trying. Pushing forward, even if you fail. By trying to atone, he's already atoning, already proving his worthiness of that happiness.

What do you want me to say about this?

I disagree! Cloud/Tifa is about 40% struggles, 10% sexiness, 15% mooching 5% dramatic angst (with appropriate background music), and 30% unconditional love.

That 40% seems high until you consider Cloud's life is about 80% struggle (50% identity issues 30% guilt and 20% because he thinks angst looks cool), after all his last name IS Strife, and all relationships he has will have inflated percentages of struggle, not just Tifa's. Unless he goes out with Barret who I am sure will just knock him on his ass 85% of the time, thus eliminating the emo mood.

But regardless, Cloud/Aerith will have about a 90% struggle rate because I'm about 100% sure she's dead, and there's only about a 5% chance Nojima will get drunk and suddenly think it's a good idea to resurrect Aerith (but not Zack of course, he's 99% IN THE PAST)

It's also false to believe that the rate of the conflicts between Tifa/Cloud will be at the same rate of AC/C and CoT in which 95% conflict was in the showing because these were extreme circumstances that were meant to focus on conflict,a fterall who wants to watch a movie when 98% of it is with the character's having already overcome their difficulties and-

SOMEONE STOP ME, THIS JOKE IT'S GOING TOO FAR AND HAS CRASHED AND BURNED IN MY UNFUNNY

Also, don't argue Anastar if she's not in the debate atm, I don't pull up random people from Naruto fandom and argue how much of a cool guy they are in the middle of a semi relevant thread.

This post’s a winner. I actually enjoyed reading it.

 

[Theozilla]

She's trying, but like I said, she's got her hands full enough as it is. I'm not sure if she'll bother posting here again after that, and I wouldn't blame her.

Some people here are being really welcoming and accepting, but it's things like that that make us not want to come here. Calling her those things is the same as calling us those things, because she's a friend and we back her 100%.

Optimus Prime: "We're locked inside an enemy prison surrounded by countless Decepticons bent on our destruction... It's purely a matter of perspective." WOAH, get 'outta here Optimus and your well-said words of wisdom!


Okay.





The only thing mentioned has been the night at the water tower. Cloud didn't even know Tifa was interested, and it didn't sound like she knew how he'd been in those months, only that she wondered.


Not much, considering the first conversation they have in the game has Cloud about ready to leave if he doesn't get enough gil.


He watched Tifa from afar his entire childhood. How much do you think he could've loved her? They describe it as "dim", right? Barely there or obscured, however you want to see it, they weren't friends. So I don't think his childhood feelings are concrete or say anything about his current feelings, because he currently knows her now but he didn't before.


Yes, I agree. But he specified Cloud, as if his feelings are different than everyone else's. He carries a heavy guilt that the rest of them don't, yes, but why? Because he cared about her a lot, in one way at least. It's cohesive enough to be a legitimate belief


Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other during their childhood, I'd say it's more probable they didn't speak at all while he was trying to join SOLDIER (she asked Zack if he knew him, it didn't sound like she knew the truth), and they didn't seem to get close in the week or so before the game started.

Cloud and Aerith got to know each other on an equal level by the time she died. They became friends.


The way I saw it is that they're old feelings currently withheld by his false memories.


Of course. She's a loved one. But I mean that Cloud isn't the same kid who wanted to join SOLDIER to be like the great Sephiroth and get Tifa's attention.

I don't see how you can say Cloud and Tifa were not childhood friends, considering that nearly every bio for them states that they were. Also are you trying to say that Tifa and cloud did not communicate with each other between 1994-1999? Because that is as baseless an assumption as is it is to say that Tifa and Cloud hung out nearly every day between 1994-1999. Those two dates are significant moments of interaction from their childhood, but to assume that it is their only interaction is a baseless assumption. And his feelings about Tifa during his childhood had to be pretty significant since, her being injured at 8, is partially what drove Cloud to want to join SOLDIER. And the fact that Tifa asked Zack about Cloud is indicative that Cloud was still on Tifa's mind when she was 15. Also Tifa's importance to Cloud is something that even Zack notices when he was 16, noting that he was sensing some unresolved feelings between the two of them. And the dialogue in Last Order (which comes from the true version of Nibelheim incident events revealed during the Cloud's Subconscious sequence in FFVII) shows that their promise is still very much important to each.

I think the guy's got an opinion, but he hasn't made it definite.
Tifa is still introduced as Cloud's childhood friend in AC Complete and Dirge of Cerberus. Nothing saying a romantic relationship is or isn't happening. He's still leaving it open. After Advent Children came out, he said he "didn't know" if they were in a relationship, so assuming he wasn't lying, during the development of the movie his intention couldn't have been on their romantic relationship. So I think when he ends up saying the movie tells the truth of their relationship - a romantic one, he claimed he didn't know of when he was making it - I'd say that's still leaving it open for us to decide.

Besides, it's possible he still "doesn't know" about their romantic relationship, and was touching on a different relationship.


He said they have their own answers, and if our interpretations are different, they're still possible answers. He seemed to be putting their answers and ours on the same level.

"Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought." - Nomura

This was some time ago, I understand. But I think we can agree he's still got this mentality. He isn't saying for sure. He's still leaving us room.


And we have enough. I'll get to that in a minute


We have the choice to ignore Tifa and Aerith, too.

Except in CoT Cloud specifically says to Tifa he wants to start a new life with her and that their relationship is different now. Also, in addition to be introduced as Cloud's childhood friend she is also introduced as being a part of Cloud's family and that they are the adoptive parents of Marlene and Denzel.
And then there is Nojima's interview about the CoT which puts there relationship in the context of love and family:

“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”

Which Squall_of_SeeD's article on the LTD goes into great analysis about it, better than I could.

Ahh, gladly.

You see, a lot of people are saying Cloud only felt guilt towards Aerith after he became "himself", and it can't be love.

"This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself..."

"It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth."

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself."

So, we get by this that Cloud is feeling very guilty in between the ending of FFVII and Advent Children. But I think people are losing sight of why he's feeling guilty. Like it's been said, context provides context.

"And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him..."

He feels guilt because he cares about Aerith. She's a loved one too. And it's reaffirmed by these statements.

"She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." -Maiden of the Planet

"She was a little happy that he thought so much of her..." -Maiden of the Planet

"Transporting mail around the world meant Cloud was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again." -Case of Tifa

"Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who Cloud will never forget/is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life." -Dirge of Cerberus game manuals

"It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital." -Reunion Files

*HK-47 voice* Conclusion: Cloud cares about Aerith.
The how's and why's are up for grabs, but that doesn't change that he cares about her, and he doesn't just feel guilt for her.

Now, Tifa

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had developed a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in Advent Children, two years after Aerith had departed the world."- Case of Tifa

"She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated..." - 10th AU

These two things wouldn't have been included for nothing. I'd say there are two ways to interpret this - that Tifa is jealous, or that Tifa notices that "something between" Cloud and Aerith. What we're saying is, our interpretation isn't totally unreasonable because it's one thing to be jealous of another girl, and it's another when that girl is dead. At that point, she couldn't be jealous of their relationship, only Cloud's feelings. If she can see something, can you understand how we've been seeing that too?

We're told that Cloud cares about Aerith in much of the same manner we're told he and Tifa can exchange feelings. These statements are vague enough because we're looking for details not in those statements (excluding optional scenes - this includes "feelings of desire.")

Canonically, the most Aerith is introduced as is someone that Cloud has engraved in his heart. Canonically, the most Tifa is introduced as is a very important woman to him. At the end of the day, they're both canonically introduced as friends. But we know they're also love interests. And it's our interpretations that tell which girl we think he loves, if he loves either, or if he loves both.

You've got your "feelings" quotes, which you interpret to mean romantic feelings and we interpret to mean feelings of support/friendship. We've got our quotes about Cloud's motives, which you interpret to mean guilt/friendship and we interpret to mean romantic feelings. Our beliefs are backed up in some way, whether you agree or not. Cloud is never definitively said to romantically love either girl in a non-optional setting. So, based on these "mutual feelings" Cloud and Tifa quotes, and Cloud's feelings alone about Aerith, we're determining from our own reasoning what they mean. Because that's what SE wants us to do. So that means nothing is definite. Yet.

There you go, sports. Reasonable cause that Cloud might love either girl. We're given blanks and we fill in the rest on our own.

Cloud and Tifa are canon, my lady balls.


Guess my sense of humor really is this bad
Nomura 1k97, sheesh

Of course Cloud loved Aertih and that she always be engraved in his heart but he is/was not IN love with Aertih, like he is with Tifa. And the FF 20th Ultimania does put the High Affection Highwind scene as the default canon version. And like others have said Could did not leave Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel because he did not love them and was IN love with Aerith, but because of the combination of feeling guilty about his happiness, his guilt of having been unable to protect Aerith (which is compounded because he loved her as well) and Zack, and getting Geostigma. Also Aerith herself (and Zack) is shown wanting Cloud to move on from dwelling on the past, which cannot be changed and cherish and love what he has now, what with her messages and booting him out of the Lifestream.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Because your “Reality” is a speculation itself given the fact that 14 years later, neither Cloti or Clerith has been officially declared canon.

So you say, but you're still not able to support the claim.

He was there physically. Emotionally the boy’s a mess and a messed up person willl HARDLY compromise.

Compromise on what exactly? He is there for Tifa and the kids emotionally through a goodly portion of CoT. People really need to stop pretending his was a distant and less than supportive ass for that entire span of time.

Yes, life’s a struggle, not a constant manifestation of unconformity and awkwardness like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.

How is not conforming to the happy special relationship sterotype and being shy, awkward people such a horrible thing again? Especially as we know they work through these things their way and are happy together despite that?

His justification may be the sake of his family but in the end, actions speak louder than words and his behavior is still that of hiding the truth, running away, neglecting his family and Tifa’s feelings and creating an entire world behind their back.

Agreed that his behavior is uncool, as I have stated before. He did hide the truth, he did run away, and it was not good on his family when he did. He got called out on it by Tifa and Marlene (and Vincent in a way) and got over it. And when exactly did he create an ENTIRE WORLD behind their backs? I remember him moping and waiting to die, not building an entire new life.

I still think it’s funny.

My philosophy is laugh when you're able Whether I agree with you or not, I hope you enjoy your laugh.

Exactly same meaning, just different language, and no, don’t worry, I’m not into DSM-IV.

If you acknowledge the actual meaning, then why are you confusing what it means?

Trust me, no one will ever come out and say they enjoy being f*up.

I enjoy being fucked up. I LIKE being a sadist, and the masochists I have shared my sadistic tendencies with openly identify as masochists. Some folks do deny what they are, just as some closeted homo/bi/tansexuals deny what they are, but you are still wrong in general.

However, they do enjoy it or otherwise, they’d change their behavior and even if they come out and say it, as I said before, actions speak louder than words and the simple fact that they’re still engaged in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it.

Neither Cloud nor Tifa shows any signs of enjoying the emotional pain they go through during the story. No one is getting any kind of thrill out of it (well ok certain fans and Sephiroth, but that's not the same). And as you may have seen pointed out, THEY DID CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR. Cloud started trying again, Tifa stopped silently putting up with his crap and laid into him (thus getting him to take the first step on the trying again path), etc.

Not everyone engages in destructive behavior because they enjoy it, and I am fairly insulted that you can say such a thing and mean it.

She’s still waiting for her knight in shinning armor to come and save her but Cloud’s no knight in shinning armor, he’s much more like a hobo.

And yet he does his damndest to come and save people, over and over, all through the Compilation.

And you should read up on some Arthurian literature, not a small number of knights have basically lived like hobos at one point or another.

However, I don’t see everyone else dealing with her death in such an unhealthy way as Cloud does.

Not everyone else promised to keep her safe, for one thing. There is more beyond that, but I'll just leave it at that for the moment.

And this proves my point by exposing his lack of initiative when someone supposedly so dear and special to him is in danger, however when it came to Aerith, he did not hesitate to make a move.

Ok, you're still missing the point. Cloud was going to charge straight into Corneo's place to save Tifa. Aerith talked him into using stealthier tactics. She was not the one taking the initiative to save Tifa, only helping to get them inside to do so in a less obvious way. So no, it does not expose Cloud's "lack of initiative" at all.

Exactly, normal people do it or no body ever told you that we in fact as human beings deserve to be happy?

Knowing intellectually that you have the right to be happy does not equate to an immunity from the feeling that you do not deserve the things that make you happy.

Enjoying what actually makes you happy is a very good indicator of mental health.

Yes it is. And extreme survivor's guilt =/= mental health. Cloud is not in a good place at this point. Oh, and he still DOES enjoy the things that make him happy (Tifa and the kids, so we don't lose sight of the real argument). And his joy at having them makes him even guiltier because, having failed to keep his promise to Zack and having failed again to save Aerith, he doesn't feel he deserves that happiness. That's the sort of thing that ties a man in knots, even before he got the stigma.

Yes, it was Vincent with an entire dialogue focused on the guilt he felt because of Aerith and most importantly, his meeting with her.

Support the "most importantly, his meeting with her" being the most important please? I am certain her wondering WHO he needs forgiven by is a big part of him getting over his guilt and realizing its his own forgiveness he needs. But Tifa and Marlene do just as much if not more to get his fatalistic ass back on track and trying again.

Everyone else was merely a contributor.

Everyone was a contributor. That includes Aerith. Certainly she did more (or at least was more direct) than say, Barret and Yuffie, but even they helped Cloud's situation by doing no more than showing up. So yeah, Aerith was JUST a contributor too.

Ok, let’s just ignore that they’ve clearly said that despite the similarities, Aerith could see right through Cloud’s personality and like him for who he was.

I don't recall them ever saying that she saw right through his false personality myself, others may quote this to prove me wrong. I DO remember her eventually seeing that it was a false persona, and WANTING to see the real Cloud. And I also remember statements flat stating that Cloud's similarity to Zack was part of what initially drew her in.

Your statement holds no truth, Sir. Enough proof.

I've looked this up, just to be sure. His statement holds plenty of truth.

“Because I say so” is no evidence.

Interesting how often I see you offer Clerith "proof" with this as your primary justification then. I'll leave it to someone else to really explain how the alternate position is validated.

Forget the percentage.

I did that the moment you quoted it myself, since it was indeed pure hyperbole with no backing.

Struggles in their relationship > happiness in their relationship.

During AC/C? No doubt, they were in stressful times dealing with big problems. Those events are not their everyday life. And since we know that Cloud returned home where he belongs afterward/wanted to take time off along with Tifa, we can see that the most likely way of life for them after AC/C is more akin to that in the middle portion of CoT. In other words, plenty of happiness in their relationship.

It’s the same.

A made up exact percentage =/= a simpler claim that they have more struggle than happiness.

Ok, I want his explanation because I’m not into dogmatism.

My experience in this area is not exactly suitable for a public forum. Suffice to say that I have been a member of the BDSM community since I was 19, and I know what I am talking about. Feel free to PM me about it if you want more information.

Whether you do or not, I would recommend you not claim to know more about something than someone who has actually lived with and experienced said thing.

This post’s a winner. I actually enjoyed reading it.

On this we agree.

 

[Theozilla]

Because your “Reality” is a speculation itself given the fact that 14 years later, neither Cloti or Clerith has been officially declared canon.



He was there physically. Emotionally the boy’s a mess and a messed up person willl HARDLY compromise.



Yes, life’s a struggle, not a constant manifestation of unconformity and awkwardness like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.



His justification may be the sake of his family but in the end, actions speak louder than words and his behavior is still that of hiding the truth, running away, neglecting his family and Tifa’s feelings and creating an entire world behind their back.



I still think it’s funny.



Exactly same meaning, just different language, and no, don’t worry, I’m not into DSM-IV.



Trust me, no one will ever come out and say they enjoy being f*up. However, they do enjoy it or otherwise, they’d change their behavior and even if they come out and say it, as I said before, actions speak louder than words and the simple fact that they’re still engaged in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it.



No, I won’t accept it ‘cause you’re not giving me ANY fact to prove me otherwise.



She’s still waiting for her knight in shinning armor to come and save her but Cloud’s no knight in shinning armor, he’s much more like a hobo.



That should say something.



Yes, I misunderstood.

However, I don’t see everyone else dealing with her death in such an unhealthy way as Cloud does.



And this proves my point by exposing his lack of initiative when someone supposedly so dear and special to him is in danger, however when it came to Aerith, he did not hesitate to make a move.



What does it make you, then?



Exactly, normal people do it or no body ever told you that we in fact as human beings deserve to be happy?

Enjoying what actually makes you happy is a very good indicator of mental health.



Yes, it was Vincent with an entire dialogue focused on the guilt he felt because of Aerith and most importantly, his meeting with her.

Everyone else was merely a contributor.



Ok, let’s just ignore that they’ve clearly said that despite the similarities, Aerith could see right through Cloud’s personality and like him for who he was.



Your statement holds no truth, Sir. Enough proof.



“Because I say so” is no evidence.



Forget the percentage.

Struggles in their relationship > happiness in their relationship.

It’s the same.



Ok, I want his explanation because I’m not into dogmatism.



What do you want me to say about this?



This post’s a winner. I actually enjoyed reading it.

Cloud feeling that he needs to atone and that he feels guilt and sorrow for a long time, is not evidence for him being a masochist. There are plenty of people in real life who feel that way (some for much longer than 2-3 years) and they certainly are not taking pleasure from it and/or want to be in pain, they are grieving. I actually personally find your declaration that the fact that people who are engaged longly in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it, kinda of borderline insulting, especially if anyone has a relative who has been grieving for a long time due to a tragedy in their life.

And Tifa and Marlene has just as much significance on getting Cloud out his funk as Aerith does in FFVII: AC/C, if Tifa had not talked to Cloud he likely would not have gone to save the children and Marlene specifically helps him realize that he can't seclude himself from his family. Aerith repeats Tifa's declaration that he is still "dragging" and that there is nothing he needs to be forgiven for.

 

[aerbear]

I don't see how you can say Cloud and Tifa were not childhood friends, considering that nearly every bio for them states that they were.

This I never understood, since Cloud and Tifa both remember being little more than strangers.

Also are you trying to say that Tifa and cloud did not communicate with each other between 1994-1999? Because that is as baseless an assumption as is it is to say that Tifa and Cloud hung out nearly every day between 1994-1999. Those two dates are significant moments of interaction from their childhood, but to assume that it is their only interaction is a baseless assumption.

He didn't have any friends growing up. He didn't seem comfortable with Tifa. He was a loner, until he met Zack. Tifa just saw him as someone who got into a lot of fights.

And his feelings about Tifa during his childhood had to be pretty significant since, her being injured at 8, is partially what drove Cloud to want to join SOLDIER. And the fact that Tifa asked Zack about Cloud is indicative that Cloud was still on Tifa's mind when she was 15.

Yes. What I was trying to say was that if she didn't know how he was doing, I don't think they were speaking after they made that promise. My bad, I didn't explain it well

Except in CoT Cloud specifically says to Tifa he wants to start a new life with her and that their relationship is different now. Also, in addition to be introduced as Cloud's childhood friend she is also introduced as being a part of Cloud's family and that they are the adoptive parents of Marlene and Denzel.

Well yes, I agree. They do want to have a new life as a family, separate from the life they had before, which they feel was full of sin and mistakes.

“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”

I always took this as Nojima saying he wouldn't impose his views on romantic love, marriage and family on CoT, since he's saying about how he thinks it might not work.

Which Squall_of_SeeD's article on the LTD goes into great analysis about it, better than I could.

I've read it

Of course Cloud loved Aertih and that she always be engraved in his heart but he is/was not IN love with Aertih, like he is with Tifa. And the FF 20th Ultimania does put the High Affection Highwind scene as the default canon version. And like others have said Could did not leave Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel because he did not love them and was IN love with Aerith, but because of the combination of feeling guilty about his happiness, his guilt of having been unable to protect Aerith (which is compounded because he loved her as well) and Zack, and getting Geostigma. Also Aerith herself (and Zack) is shown wanting Cloud to move on from dwelling on the past, which cannot be changed and cherish and love what he has now, what with her messages and booting him out of the Lifestream.

Well it's kind of how I've never seen anything to make me believe Cloud is in love with Tifa, like you've never seen anything to make you believe Cloud's in love with Aerith. It's been hinted at on both sides, but never said for sure. We can only speculate.

By the way, your picture scares me

 

[Random Nobody]

Isn’t this exactly what Cloud did?
Running away from his family, avoiding confrontation and not dealing with the situation as a responsible adult would but instead, he acted like a child who just went off and hide from the problem

No, not really.

The problem I think you're running into is that "passive-aggressive" and "masochistic" are medical terms that, much like "depressed" and "bipolar," have osmosed into laymen's speech, and consequently are used incorrectly with a higher percentage of frequency than NASDAQ equity trades. I assumed you meant "self-flagellating" (which Cloud is) when you used "masochistic" (which he is not), so I said nothing. But if you want to argue that Cloud is a true masochist, you would be on a fool's errand, as masochism necessarily requires that the party enjoys or receives gratification from physical or emotional pain. Since the latter is untrue for Cloud (who only becomes more miserable), we can conclude that he is not actually a masochist.

Similarly, "passive-aggressive" is casually used to discreetly say, "this person is an arsehole; could this stinking anus really be more of a knob?" But in actuality, passive-aggressiveness is considered a personality disorder (albeit a specious and fairly ill-defined one) characterised by four or more persistent attitudes of unfounded resentfulness and defiance. One bout of passive-aggressive behaviour does not mean a person is passive-aggressive (PaB is a pervasive pattern that continues throughout lifetimes); additionally, exhibiting a single symptom (what you call "childish running") does not qualify. Cloud is no negativist, and nor was his running off to the Church a malicious act of emotional manipulation. Whilst it's true that he still hurt his family, you cannot confuse consequence and intent. On one end, passive-aggression is largely (irrationally) reactionary, and is defined by mendacious or exaggerated claims of unfair victimisation that culminate in attempts to "punish" the offending party for the aggressor's troubles (where the "childish" descriptor is valid). On the other end, Cloud disappeared because he felt guilty and undeserving of his family and thought himself a burden they would be better off without. I don't think I have to say that he wasn't trying to punish Tifa and the kids by leaving.

Avoidance coping may be maladaptive, but it isn't childish in any way, form, or fashion, especially when examined in the context of magical Sephiroth GRIDS a fatal incurable disease. It's also good to keep in mind that this coping strategy is common in sufferers of PTSD, which all evidence indicates Cloud has.

Tl;dr, you can accuse Cloud of being an idiot with a low self-esteem, but "masochistic" and "passive-aggressive" are simply inaccurate.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well it's kind of how I've never seen anything to make me believe Cloud is in love with Tifa, like you've never seen anything to make you believe Cloud's in love with Aerith. It's been hinted at on both sides, but never said for sure. We can only speculate.

I feel like the game gave enough to say that he loved both women, since even though many people have said that 'past Cloud doesn't know current Cloud's feelings' it makes no narrative sense for them to throw him in there and have him tell Tifa things if they aren't true or no longer imply. The Lifestream scene was put in the game to show the player that Cloud isn't who we may have thought he was and show us things that the player may not have known.

Plus I feel since it's the easiest to get the Aerith date and the HA Tifa scene that they could both be considered canon. I think he loved both women and that him loving one did not mean he loved the other less. I enjoy Cloud and Tifa's relationship because it's so complicated.

There you go, sports. Reasonable cause that Cloud might love either girl. We're given blanks and we fill in the rest on our own.

Or he could just as easily love them both. (ala locke cole plz)

 

[Theozilla]

I feel like the game gave enough to say that he loved both women, since even though many people have said that 'past Cloud doesn't know current Cloud's feelings' it makes no narrative sense for them to throw him in there and have him tell Tifa things if they aren't true or no longer imply. The Lifestream scene was put in the game to show the player that Cloud isn't who we may have thought he was and show us things that the player may not have known.

Plus I feel since it's the easiest to get the Aerith date and the HA Tifa scene that they could both be considered canon. I think he loved both women and that him loving one did not mean he loved the other less. I enjoy Cloud and Tifa's relationship because it's so complicated.


Or he could just as easily love them both. (ala locke cole plz)

I guess, I will admit that Cloud can be/been in IN love with both Aerith (to be specific was in the process of falling) and Tifa during FFVII (similar to how in InuYasha the titular character was/is IN love with both Kikyo and Kagome). However, I do think that after having been together for a few years, Cloud's and Tifa's relationship is much deeper (as of Dirge of Cerebus) than Aerith's and Cloud's was right before her death (not that it besmirches their relationship, especially when Aertih has given Cloud her blessing to move on).

 

[NIGHT]

I agree, I will admit that Cloud can be/been in IN love with both Aerith and Tifa during FFVII (similar to how in InuYasha the titular character was/is IN love with both Kikyo and Kagome). However, I do think that after having been together for a few years, Cloud's and Tifa's relationship is deeper (as of Dirge of Cerebus) than Aerith's and Cloud's was right before her death (not that it besmirches their relationship, especially when Aertih has given Cloud her blessing to move on).

dude the screentime that Cloud and Tifa had in FAIL OF CERBERUS was so little....that you cant judge how their relationship is going.Even though Cloud seem a little smiley, it may just illustrate that Cloud sins were forgiven.And just like SQUALLOFSEED said in one of his LTD analysis "they are just doing just fine"

NOTE: that epic quote that ACC said(by TIFA):"Cloud is Cloud" means that Cloud will always be a quiet guy who doesnt speak that much, but after his depresion and his forgiven sins, he smiles and enjoy the company of ppl that supports him and loves him from who he is.

 

[aerbear]

dude the screentime that Cloud and Tifa had in FAIL OF CERBERUS was so little....that you cant judge how their relationship is going.Even though Cloud seem a little smiley, it may just illustrate that Cloud sins were forgiven.And just like SQUALLOFSEED said in one of his LTD analysis "they are just doing just fine"

I'm not sure, but I think he meant that by DoC he expects their relationship is much better because of the time they've had.

Nice FAIL OF CERBERUS thing

 

[Theozilla]

I'm not sure, but I think he meant that by DoC he expects their relationship is much better because of the time they've had.

Nice FAIL OF CERBERUS thing

Yeah, that is what I was saying. I am perfectly aware that they have very little screen time in it. I was just referencing it since it is the most recent (in characters timeline) entry the FFVII Compilation.

 

[NIGHT]

Yeah, that is what I was saying. I am perfectly aware that they have very little screen time in it. I was just referencing it since it is the most recent (in characters timeline) entry the FFVII Compilation.

Yea but still the screentime not enough, to judge how their relationship is going after those few years after ACC, but as I said they seem to be fine, I see a bright positive future to both and their relationship

 

[Theozilla]

Yea but still the screentime not enough, to judge how their relationship is going after those few years after ACC, but as I said they seem to be fine, I see a bright positive future to both and their relationship

No,no you're still misunderstanding me, I am not saying that I am using their screen time as evidence for how their relationship is at the moment.
Rather, I am using it as a reference point, to point out that they had been living together for three years by then. I was using their amount of time together itself as a piece of evidence that their relationship was deeper/better because of the long time they've had.

 

[Anastar]

New response from Chantara

Not sure who to address this response to. IIRC, Tres sent the PM to me, but not all responses were from him. So sorry - not sure who I'm answering here.

So because your father doesn't sleep in the room that he uses as his office means that all men don't sleep in a room that they use as their office? My father's desk was in the master bedroom, so his "office" was also his bedroom. The master bedroom had a double bed, though - unlike the single bed in Cloud's room.

I imagine your dad had a goddamn dresser in his room too. And probably didn't keep motorcycle tires propped against the wall.

Yes, my father had a dresser in his room, but I think Cloud does, too. I labeled what looks to me like a cabinet in the following picture:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png

And no, my father didn't keep tires in his room, but Cloud's not the first guy to do something like that - you see that kind of thing in movies and TV sometimes.

Yes, Cloud is the one who grows increasingly insular, but that's not the point.

The point is that Tifa's the only one wondering whether they've become a "real family." Cloud never wonders whether they've become a "real family."

How, in a story told from Tifa's perspective, did you glean Cloud's inner thoughts? I'm genuinely curious.

From the fact that he never says anything or asks anything about a "real family", but Tifa does.

It's shown in the original game during the hand reach scene when Cloud looks at Aerith.

'Cause nobody else in AVALANCHe would have reached out to her.

Not the point. The point is that Cloud looked at Aerith with love during both the FFVII and AC/ACC hand reach scene, IMO.

It's shown in the original game when Cloud talks about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game.

Tifa also wants to go meet her. Guess Aerith is most important to Tifa too.

But Cloud didn't invite Tifa to go with him to meet Aerith.
(She holds on tighter and leans her head against his chest.) Cloud "An answer from the Planet... the Promised Land... I think I can meet her... there." (Tifa looks up at him, then closes her eyes and leans her head back down.) Tifa "Yeah, let's go meet her."
Tifa just invites herself along. Plus - if you ask me - Tifa doesn't look too happy about Cloud wanting to meet Aerith.

If anything, Tifa looks "defeated".

It's shown in AC/ACC when Sephiroth asks Cloud what he cherishes most, and Aerith is the first thing that Cloud thinks of, followed by the hand reach scene (or Cloud meeting Aerith).

That's also where we learned that Marlene is more important to Cloud than Denzel, right? And that he spends the most time thinking about the person who means the least to him (Zack).

The point is, Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second - then he thinks of Tifa. To me, that indicates that Aerith means more to him, since she's the first on his mind. As for what it means about the other characters, think what you like.

It's shown in AC/ACC when Cloud leaves the Seventh Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church.

'Cause we haven't been told that he was seeking atonement and waiting around to die in despair.

Many people want to spend their dying days with the people they love most - that says a lot when Cloud leaves the 7th Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church before he dies.

It's shown at the end of AC/ACC when Cloud goes out riding on Fenrir beside flower fields said by Nomura to represent Aerith instead of returning to the Seventh Heaven.

'Cause we haven't been told and shown that Cloud did return to 7th Heaven (we have been).

Yes, we know he went back - but the ending of the movie didn't show Cloud returning to the Seventh Heaven. Instead, SE seemed to think it was more important to end the movie with scenes of Cloud surrounded by flowers that remind everyone of Aerith. Nomura even said he chose to film the ending in Hawaii because the flowers surrounding the road are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.

It's shown at the end of AC/ACC when Cloud says he's no longer alone, which means he WAS alone before being reunited with Aerith.

Yeah, he's no longer alone 'cause of Aerith ... who has officially been said to be leaving during that scene.

And people never return after they leave? People leave for school and for work in the morning, but they come home later that day. Friends leave my house after a party, but I see them again the next day.

Usually, when you want to convey that someone leaves and never returns, you say they "leave for good". SE didn't say that about Aerith.

The whole point is that it's NOT blinking in neon when it doesn't say who she's a koibito to. And the point this sensei was making is more important than the spelling of it. She was saying that it makes no sense for the word "koibito" to be used without saying who the person is a "koibito" to.

Which is bullshit. And Nomura did use it that way, so that's kind of irrelevant.

And that's simply your opinion. It's not fact.

The point you are missing is that we do not see Cloud arriving back at the Seventh Heaven.

You do know that the final shot of even the original version of the film, which you prefer, is Cloud's desk with a flower and a new photo, right? And that the newer, canon version of the film shows that shot and then an additional scene of Cloud with Denzel. Who lives at 7th Heaven.

I never said he doesn't return to the Seventh Heaven. I said we didn't SEE him returning to the Seventh Heaven. If SE left his return out of the movie, then they obviously didn't think his return was very important. Instead, SE thought it was more important to show Cloud surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith, which implies that they are always together.

IF SE wanted to imply that Cloud and Tifa will now have a romantic relationship following AC/ACC, they would show Cloud arriving back at the Seventh Heaven, taking Tifa into his arms, and kissing her. We never see that.

Which would have been kind of weird to begin with, especially since Tifa's, like, there in front of Cloud at the church. Not back at 7th Heaven waiting around for him to show up.

Point is, we never saw anything to indicate that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship after AC/ACC. Nomura clearly said that he didn't know if Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC/ACC. We were shown nothing that indicates Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship during or after AC/ACC. So if you think they have a romantic relationship, it's nothing but pure assumption.

Fact is, Aerith is always with Cloud. That was explained in Distance, when Nomura said that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. What that means is that Cloud and Aerith are inseparable. They are like soul mates, a fact which is also demonstrated in FFVII when Cloud is able to sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City.

Amazing revelation straight from SE, folks! Marlene and Tifa are Aerith's other soul mates!

Along with Cloud!

'Cause they can all sense her!

Now, how's that for a foursome?

That might be relevant if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could actually see Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could talk and touch Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Tifa could sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City like Cloud did, and if SE had said that Tifa and Aerith had a special bond like Cloud and Aerith. In fact, SE said that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond that was different than Cloud and Tifa's:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she [Tifa] carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

 

[Theozilla]

New response from Chantara

Not sure who to address this response to. IIRC, Tres sent the PM to me, but not all responses were from him. So sorry - not sure who I'm answering here.

Yes, my father had a dresser in his room, but I think Cloud does, too. I labeled what looks to me like a cabinet in the following picture:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png

And no, my father didn't keep tires in his room, but Cloud's not the first guy to do something like that - you see that kind of thing in movies and TV sometimes.

From the fact that he never says anything or asks anything about a "real family", but Tifa does.

Not the point. The point is that Cloud looked at Aerith with love during both the FFVII and AC/ACC hand reach scene, IMO.

But Cloud didn't invite Tifa to go with him to meet Aerith.
(She holds on tighter and leans her head against his chest.) Cloud "An answer from the Planet... the Promised Land... I think I can meet her... there." (Tifa looks up at him, then closes her eyes and leans her head back down.) Tifa "Yeah, let's go meet her."
Tifa just invites herself along. Plus - if you ask me - Tifa doesn't look too happy about Cloud wanting to meet Aerith.

If anything, Tifa looks "defeated".

The point is, Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second - then he thinks of Tifa. To me, that indicates that Aerith means more to him, since she's the first on his mind. As for what it means about the other characters, think what you like.

Many people want to spend their dying days with the people they love most - that says a lot when Cloud leaves the 7th Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church before he dies.

Yes, we know he went back - but the ending of the movie didn't show Cloud returning to the Seventh Heaven. Instead, SE seemed to think it was more important to end the movie with scenes of Cloud surrounded by flowers that remind everyone of Aerith. Nomura even said he chose to film the ending in Hawaii because the flowers surrounding the road are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.

And people never return after they leave? People leave for school and for work in the morning, but they come home later that day. Friends leave my house after a party, but I see them again the next day.

Usually, when you want to convey that someone leaves and never returns, you say they "leave for good". SE didn't say that about Aerith.

And that's simply your opinion. It's not fact.

I never said he doesn't return to the Seventh Heaven. I said we didn't SEE him returning to the Seventh Heaven. If SE left his return out of the movie, then they obviously didn't think his return was very important. Instead, SE thought it was more important to show Cloud surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith, which implies that they are always together.

Point is, we never saw anything to indicate that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship after AC/ACC. Nomura clearly said that he didn't know if Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC/ACC. We were shown nothing that indicates Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship during or after AC/ACC. So if you think they have a romantic relationship, it's nothing but pure assumption.

That might be relevant if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could actually see Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could talk and touch Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Tifa could sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City like Cloud did, and if SE had said that Tifa and Aerith had a special bond like Cloud and Aerith. In fact, SE said that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond that was different than Cloud and Tifa's:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she [Tifa] carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

For that picture, there is no mirror as other posters have pointed out, it the window frame for the door. And that "suitcase" is a toolbox, and what your labeling as a dresser is much to small to be one, especially when compared to other ones in FFVII:AC/C.
Actually, Cloud does refer to Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel as "his family" in FFVII:AC/C. And official descriptions of them also refer to them as Cloud's family.
I would say in FFVII:AC/C, Cloud's reaction to Aertih is one of surprise not love, and if you think that face qualifies as love I would then argue that his face when cradling Tifa or meeting her eye at the end of FFVII:AC/C are faces of love as well.
For the promised land scene, Tifa does not need an invite to want to see Aerith, Aerith was Tifa's dear friend as well. And rewatching that scene seems to me that he face is much more one of agreement than defeat.
As for the flashes of what Cloud's cherishes, the order is hardly indicative of the amount that Cloud values them, especially with Marlene and Denzel, Cloud is hardly a parent who would pick favorites.
As for Cloud residing in the Church, yeah Cloud went there because it reminded him of Aerith (who he was feeling guilty over), but that is hardly the same as actually meeting Aerith there. And as we see in the movie Cloud is still pretty miserable even though he is staying in the Church.
Yeah, the movie did not show Cloud physically returning to 7th Heaven (even though we know he did), what it ends with is what is actually even more important the bar, it ends with the picture of Cloud with his family and friends happy together, that is far more significant than cloud driving by a field of flowers. And the very very last scene shows Cloud and Denzel (off-screen) reuniting the Buster Sword with Aerith's flowers and planting Aertith's flowers over where Zack died, something than many Zerith fans use as a point of significance.
The language and imagery and symbolism of Aerith and Zack leaving are pretty definite/permanent departures because the entire emotional journey that Cloud had went on was Cloud learning to move on and not dwell in the past and memory, something that Aerith herself wanted Cloud to do.
FFVII:AC/C indicated that Cloud's and Tifa's romantic relationship was going through a tough period, plenty of other sources like the Ultimania's (the Highwind Scene) and CoT also indicate that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship. And Cloud and Aerith have a special bond with each other, but Cloud and Tifa also have their own special bond as well too.
And saying "if you think they have a romantic relationship, it's nothing but pure assumption" in regards to Tifa and Cloud can just be as easily applied to Aerith and Cloud. Both couples have a great amount of evidence that each of them had/have a romantic relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

She's trying, but like I said, she's got her hands full enough as it is. I'm not sure if she'll bother posting here again after that, and I wouldn't blame her.

Some people here are being really welcoming and accepting, but it's things like that that make us not want to come here. Calling her those things is the same as calling us those things, because she's a friend and we back her 100%.

It's really not. My comments were directed at her and her alone. I've no beef with you or anyone else who those comments weren't directed to.

Being her friend doesn't make you a recipient of what I said by association. Also doesn't mean you have to "back her 100%." Though we don't talk nearly as much as we used to, I consider Tim my friend, but goddamn if he hasn't said some things that I disagreed with (and I certainly let him know so), in and out of the LTD.

Likewise, he's told me before when he felt I was out of line. Same goes for Mako and Que. I love these guys, but I've taken them to task, and they've done the same with me.

Actually, that's part of why I consider them good friends.

Optimus Prime: "We're locked inside an enemy prison surrounded by countless Decepticons bent on our destruction... It's purely a matter of perspective."

"Everyone's innocent in here, don't you know that?"

Tifa is still introduced as Cloud's childhood friend in AC Complete and Dirge of Cerberus. Nothing saying a romantic relationship is or isn't happening. He's still leaving it open. After Advent Children came out, he said he "didn't know" if they were in a relationship, so assuming he wasn't lying, during the development of the movie his intention couldn't have been on their romantic relationship. So I think when he ends up saying the movie tells the truth of their relationship - a romantic one, he claimed he didn't know of when he was making it - I'd say that's still leaving it open for us to decide.

Besides, it's possible he still "doesn't know" about their romantic relationship, and was touching on a different relationship.

To be accurate, he said he didn't know about the time between FFVII and AC/C because they weren't depicting that.

In any event, even if you discount the May 2004 quote from him as not being all encompassing (friendship, romance, etc.), that still leaves him calling Tifa somebody's koibito in 2006. He very much has some notion of what the romantic status is between Cloud and Tifa, at least post-AC/C, if not before.

He knows somebody wants Tifa, and he considers it significant enough to her role to describe it alongside her status as an ally in battle and a mother figure. Even if he wasn't referring to Cloud, if it's that significant, then he's got a notion of what her romantic life is like, at the very least.

Nomura knows. He might enjoy letting others find their own interpretations, but he knows where the official line has been drawn.

I think the guy's got an opinion, but he hasn't made it definite.

...

He said they have their own answers, and if our interpretations are different, they're still possible answers. He seemed to be putting their answers and ours on the same level.

Here's the thing, though: Nomura doesn't speak for all of the staff, and he doesn't speak for all of SE. It's not his job alone to make it definite.

He can certainly explain his own intentions to us and he can tell us what others he worked with might have intended (though I'm sure he wouldn't, 'cause he's a doucher and would probably say something like "Maybe there were no intentions"), but he doesn't have the final say on what amounts to the official position on something like this. That's not up to him alone.

You've got your "feelings" quotes, which you interpret to mean romantic feelings and we interpret to mean feelings of support/friendship. We've got our quotes about Cloud's motives, which you interpret to mean guilt/friendship and we interpret to mean romantic feelings. Our beliefs are backed up in some way, whether you agree or not.

Because somebody has to say it: more than half of those quotes about feelings in relation to Tifa specify that they are romantic. And the ones that don't specifically mention romance still must be referring to the version of events in which romantic feelings are involved since the low affection version of events doesn't involve any confirmation of mutual feelings.

"It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital." -Reunion Files

Thanks for bringing this up again, by the way. Tim had asked for the source for it some time ago since it's not an actual quote, and I meant to tell him.

The quote you have there is hitoshura's translation of a FF7AC-reunion article that was paraphrasing/summarizing stuff from a magazine article about AC, as well as an interview with Nomura. The article and interview were released in July of 2004 (August 2004 issue) in an issue of "The PlayStation" (really, that was its name in Japanese: ザ・プレイステーショ&#12531, a magazine that was discontinued in January of 2005.

My sources for the above:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ACNet.gif
http://ff7ac.hotcafe.to/magazine/magazine21.html

The original website article doesn't have a scan of the quote in question, and I don't think it has the original text from it either for anything but some of Nomura's comments (the article says it's just summarizing most of the information: "要約します"), but here's what hito translated off of:

・今もクラウドの胸に生きる面影　（画像：エアリスの顔半分下、花畑、忘らるる都）

"Vestiges that even now live in Cloud's heart (Images: bottom half of Aerith's face, flower bed, Forgotten Capital)"

Also, for accuracy's sake, if I'm reading the article correctly, this portion wasn't in the interview itself. It seems to be from a section with a montage of screenshots that had been released up to that point, and comments from the magazine about those screenshots.

So, in the future, when itemizing a list of quotes like you were doing here, it would probably be most accurate to make reference to this bit like so:

-A magazine article (from the August 2004 issue of "The PlayStation") that referred to "vestiges that even now live in Cloud's heart" and showed images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the church flower bed, and the Forgotten Capital.

Some other interesting tidbits about that issue of the magazine:
-This is also the ever elusive source that informed fans that the original 20-minute plot that became Advent Children only featured Cloud and Tifa:

・（FF7ACが決まる前に）ビジュアルワークスと映像作品を作りたいと思っていた。そこに、「AC」のプロットがあったが、そのときはペンディングになっていたんです。それは、登場人物もクラウドとティファくらいしかいない20分程度のもので、今とはだいぶ違ったものでしたが、そのプロットを元に野島さんに、もうちょっと映像作品としてボリュームのある話にしてもらった。

That part did come from the interview with Nomura, by the way.

-Obviously the article is from way early in production, but even that far back we have one of the first statements from Nomura (possibly the first) that real-life physics would be ignored for the action sequences in AC:

・（ACは）映画というより、ストーリー性のある凝った演出のミュージックビデオというか、見た目の映像のおもしろさに主軸をおいているので、物理法則を無視したアクションもさせている。

-When talking about other characters who might show up in the movie, Nomura mentioned that Nojima was fond of Vincent, so he would probably appear:

・登場キャラクターについては、野島さんの思い入れでかなり出番も変わっている。野島さんはヴィンセントが好きだから、かなり出番が多いです（笑）。

-Nomura mentioned here (again, possibly for the first time) that Rude would be seen without his sunglasses:

ちなみに、今回ルードはサングラスを取ったところが見られます。

Yes, life’s a struggle, not a constant manifestation of unconformity and awkwardness like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.

How do the brief tidbits of drama that Case of Tifa and AC/C focus on amount to the majority of those two years being discomfortable -- especially given that this is time in which Cloud has been described as mostly happy?

His justification may be the sake of his family but in the end, actions speak louder than words and his behavior is still that of hiding the truth, running away, neglecting his family and Tifa’s feelings and creating an entire world behind their back.

Actions don't speak louder than words when the intent behind those actions was something other than douchery, passive aggression and masochism. In Cloud's mind, he was doing the right thing for the people he cared about.

There was no douchery in his intentions, no passive aggression, and no masochism. There was just the well-intentioned buffoonery of a guy too down on himself to see how loved and appreciated he was.

Trust me, no one will ever come out and say they enjoy being f*up. However, they do enjoy it or otherwise, they’d change their behavior and even if they come out and say it, as I said before, actions speak louder than words and the simple fact that they’re still engaged in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it.

While your reading of the character might be an insightful analysis of many real-life people (but not all; as EverybodysGrudge has demonstrated, some of us -- myself included -- do take some degree of pleasure and/or amusment from engaging in what lies on the fringes of what's considered acceptable human behavior), it's not in this case when those who created the character have identified his thoughts and intentions. I'm sure you could write a thoroughly enjoyable and insightful essay on him for a film analysis course (honestly, I'm sure you could; I'd read it), but we've been told what his thoughts were in "reality."

I put that word in quotation marks, by the way, because we are talking about the reality of a fictional reality.

And this proves my point by exposing his lack of initiative when someone supposedly so dear and special to him is in danger, however when it came to Aerith, he did not hesitate to make a move.

EG has already asked, but I want to reiterate the question to be sure it isn't overlooked: how does Cloud intending to kick down the door show a lack of initiative?

I mean, really. He was ready to get his stomp on.

What does it make you, then?

Self-loathing, perhaps, self-destructive, definitely -- but neither of those things are equivalent to masochistic. They can be symptomatic of it, but they aren't necessarily even indicative of it.

Ok, let’s just ignore that they’ve clearly said that despite the similarities, Aerith could see right through Cloud’s personality and like him for who he was.

To be accurate, it wasn't said that she could see "right through." She was able to see that there was something not right about him (hell, even Cid was able to do that), and, yes, she could glean some of the real dude -- but that wasn't the case from the outset. It has been said that the Zackisms are what initially drew Aerith to him.

Both statements (the Zackisms attraction and the ability to see through some of Cloud's facade) exist. You can't ignore one set of statements when both exist. They're not even mutually exclusive. Both can be -- and are -- true.

Not sure who to address this response to. IIRC, Tres sent the PM to me, but not all responses were from him. So sorry - not sure who I'm answering here.

I didn't. The only PM I sent you had three of my posts (the third of which you didn't respond to).

From the fact that he never says anything or asks anything about a "real family", but Tifa does.

He never says anything about being hungry or needing to take a piss either, but we can reasonably infer that he had to do those things during the two years covered by Case of Tifa.

Seriously, you're being ridiculous in claiming that Cloud never considered the concept of family in a story that was told from another character's perspective. Hell, the fact that Cloud and Tifa both gave one another an alarmed look when Marlene spoke of being a good child for them would suggest that the matter came up in his thoughts at some point.

Not the point. The point is that Cloud looked at Aerith with love during both the FFVII and AC/ACC hand reach scene, IMO.

The question wasn't about your opinion. You were asked where it was objectively shown that your claim is true that Cloud and Aerith's relationship is more important to him than Tifa.

Many people want to spend their dying days with the people they love most - that says a lot when Cloud leaves the 7th Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church before he dies.

So, we're just going to ignore those quotes about him leaving to find a cure for Geostigma and being ridden with guilt? You're adding a meaning to his actions that runs contrary to meanings we've been given.

Yes, we know he went back - but the ending of the movie didn't show Cloud returning to the Seventh Heaven. Instead, SE seemed to think it was more important to end the movie with scenes of Cloud surrounded by flowers that remind everyone of Aerith. Nomura even said he chose to film the ending in Hawaii because the flowers surrounding the road are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.

Ryu's posted the actual quote several times, but you've ignored it. Nomura said he filmed there because the sea lay beyond the horizon. The flowers (only one locale of many in which the staff filmed) were just a happy coincedence that they worked in.

And people never return after they leave? People leave for school and for work in the morning, but they come home later that day. Friends leave my house after a party, but I see them again the next day.

Usually, when you want to convey that someone leaves and never returns, you say they "leave for good". SE didn't say that about Aerith.

Oh, b.s. =|

You speak of someone returning to the afterlife while calling it where they belong (simultaneously emphasizing that they're departing from the presence of someone who is still alive, saying that they are also going back where they belong; and especially after the characters who are going to the afterlife just told the still living person that they don't belong with them), then you're talking about them leaving for good. You must have realized this already.

And that's simply your opinion. It's not fact.

Uh, no, it's not his opinion. It is a fact that Nomura used it that way. It's right there on the goddamn page in the Reunion Files. He uses the word "koibito."

You are so full of lies and deceit that I'm genuinely horrified. This is trolling of epic proportions.

I never said he doesn't return to the Seventh Heaven. I said we didn't SEE him returning to the Seventh Heaven. If SE left his return out of the movie, then they obviously didn't think his return was very important.

And yet they do show his return, in two (really, three) different ways: the new photo (which was taken in front of the fucking 7th Heaven(!); I mean goddamn, how does that not qualify as showing him return there?) with the flower, and Cloud taking Denzel to Zack's grave.

Instead, SE thought it was more important to show Cloud surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith, which implies that they are always together.

That's a verifiable fact and not in any way an opinion, huh?

That might be relevant if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could actually see Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could talk and touch Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Tifa could sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City like Cloud did, and if SE had said that Tifa and Aerith had a special bond like Cloud and Aerith.

1) SE showed that Kadaj and some random children can see Aerith
2) Marlene and Tifa both sense Aerith's presence and speak to her; while she doesn't respond to them, she calls an entire town on the telephone, so ... yeah, Cloud's not the only one talking to her; for that matter, Kadaj has a conversation with her just as long as the one Cloud did
3) You have no evidence that they couldn't touch her if she wanted to touch them; she never tries to touch them like she touched Cloud; Kadaj takes her hand, though, in a very similar gesture
4) Yeah, they did show that Tifa could sense Aerith's presence (her profile in the FFVII 10th AU even describes the screenshot of her addressing Aerith as "Tifa, smiling towards Aerith's presence") -- and it wasn't even in the damn City of the Ancients; and, again, Marlene sensed her as well
5) Oh, so no one in SE has said Tifa and Aerith have a special bond? Is it a mass hallucination then that in the staff commentary on the Japanese DVD, Nomura said he wanted to show "the link between Tifa and Aerith"?:

http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

 

[Random Nobody]

I never said he doesn't return to the Seventh Heaven. I said we didn't SEE him returning to the Seventh Heaven. If SE left his return out of the movie, then they obviously didn't think his return was very important.

Alternatively, they just considered it self-evident. If the entire film was an exploration of how Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt caused him to distance himself from the family, isn't it more than fair to assume that once he'd gotten over it he would return?

this ignoring the fact that it was both shown to us and told to us outright

 

[ClerithRaven]

but I believe the quote is referring to the fact that there's still hope strikes me more as the fact that even though cait sith says he'll lose something dear, he's still gonna beat sephiroth in the end

EDIT: Uhm. I think that quote was connected to Cait Sith's prediction of Cloud and Aerith's wedding... Aerith and Cloud's stars showing a great future... so beating Sephiroth couldn't have been part of it...

But so to will Vincent, Cid, Barret, Nanaki, Reeve, Marlene, and Tifa never forget her.
And Marlene had a few minutes!

And I didn't say otherwise.

All of those things, if we take them as romantic, put her on equal footing with Tifa, meaning Cloud loves both women.
But the thing is, he's living with Tifa. Aerith, if we recognize Maiden, recognizes this. Hell, repeatedly Aerith keeps punting his ass back to the world of the living. If Cloud does romantically love Aerith, she's telling him not to bother. She's not pulled a literal Anna or Rachel, but she has led him back to Tifa when his mind was in the lifestream after fighting Sephiroth. She healed his dying body and sent him back to his family where he belongs (along with Zack telling him he didn't belong in the afterlife). Aerith is sending the boy a message.

Sure. He can love both women. I was only showing how Cloud could have loved/is in love with Aerith as well.
And I know he's living with Tifa. Tifa's the one who is still alive. And I doubt Aerith is that selfish to take Cloud away from everyone who needs him in the living world. She healed Cloud and prevented him from dying.
Aerith is merely saying that it was not his time yet. She knows Cloud could do things for others as long as he lives.

I have a question... When did Aerith lead Cloud back to Tifa when his mind was in the Lifestream?

So worry more about making that case, not tearing down the wall for the other pair.

Err... Yes, Goddess. I understand.

Have I been debating with anybody else btw?

 

[aerbear]

It's really not. My comments were directed at her and her alone. I've no beef with you or anyone else who those comments weren't directed to.

Being her friend doesn't make you a recipient of what I said by association. Also doesn't mean you have to "back her 100%."

But being her friend would make that upsetting. It offended more than just her, though I understand what you're saying.

Likewise, he's told me before when he felt I was out of line. Same goes for Mako and Que. I love these guys, but I've taken them to task, and they've done the same with me.

Alright.

"Everyone's innocent in here, don't you know that?"

To be accurate, he said he didn't know about the time between FFVII and AC/C because they weren't depicting that.

Alright. That's true.

In any event, even if you discount the May 2004 quote from him as not being all encompassing (friendship, romance, etc.), that still leaves him calling Tifa somebody's koibito in 2006. He very much has some notion of what the romantic status is between Cloud and Tifa, at least post-AC/C, if not before.

To be honest, I've heard several translations for that line, they've all been backed with pictures, the dictionary and information on Japanese grammar. Only one translation, the one I've seen here, has Tifa being called someone's koibito as opposed to being called a koibito herself. So I don't know what to tell you.

Nomura knows. He might enjoy letting others find their own interpretations, but he knows where the official line has been drawn.

And he's been letting us find our own for 15 years.

Here's the thing, though: Nomura doesn't speak for all of the staff, and he doesn't speak for all of SE. It's not his job alone to make it definite.

Whose said he's wrong? I don't believe he would say things that the rest of the staff wouldn't approve of. If he's saying we can interpret on our own, I'm going to interpret on my own.

(though I'm sure he wouldn't, 'cause he's a doucher and would probably say something like "Maybe there were no intentions")

Probably

but he doesn't have the final say on what amounts to the official position on something like this. That's not up to him alone.

And everyone combined has never definitively stated Cloud romantically loves Tifa. This hasn't been said anywhere.

Because somebody has to say it: more than half of those quotes about feelings in relation to Tifa specify that they are romantic. And the ones that don't specifically mention romance still must be referring to the version of events in which romantic feelings are involved since the low affection version of events doesn't involve any confirmation of mutual feelings.

The high affection feelings were specified as of desire. But Square's made it clear feelings of some sort were exchanged regardless. In the low affection version, I took from it to mean they're supporting each other.

So, in the future, when itemizing a list of quotes like you were doing here, it would probably be most accurate to make reference to this bit like so

I actually did put more in depth references, but I edited a lot of that post and quite a few things got left out. Not really sure what happened. Sorry

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But being her friend would make that upsetting. It offended more than just her, though I understand what you're saying.

And I feel where you're coming from too. Just wanted it clear that I have nothing against you. I actually find you likable.

To be honest, I've heard several translations for that line, they've all been backed with pictures, the dictionary and information on Japanese grammar. Only one translation, the one I've seen here, has Tifa being called someone's koibito as opposed to being called a koibito herself. So I don't know what to tell you.

To be a koibito means you are someone else's koibito. That's the nature of the word. The point of reference is someone other than the koibito/one who is desired.

Whose said he's wrong? I don't believe he would say things that the rest of the staff wouldn't approve of.

He is the only one who seems hung up on all this "interpret as you like" stuff. Nojima had specific things in mind for Tifa's role in KHII, but then Nomura decided to make it less obvious. Certainly there are differences of creative vision among these guys at times.

If he's saying we can interpret on our own, I'm going to interpret on my own.

And I do encourage you to do so, with or without Nomura pushing for it. FFVII in particular among the Compilation is a rich reservoir begging to be mined. I just also feel that in a discussion seeking a canon interpretation, we shouldn't get the two schools of thought overlapped -- unless, of course, the official position is that there is no official position. But even Nomura has said there are definite answers; he just didn't want to mention them.

And everyone combined has never definitively stated Cloud romantically loves Tifa. This hasn't been said anywhere.

Things like the plot summaries speak for the developers as a whole, don't they?

The high affection feelings were specified as of desire. But Square's made it clear feelings of some sort were exchanged regardless. In the low affection version, I took from it to mean they're supporting each other.

Fair enough. They certainly do speak of being there for one another. That said -- and I don't doubt that we will be unlikely to come to an agreement on this -- I will continue to insist that the feelings in question cannot be of support for one another. The two had been supporting one another all game prior to that point (and even earlier), so there can be no element of revelation or newly confirmed feelings in that regard. Maybe if it were the Turks and Cloud or Tifa a meaning like that would fit, but it doesn't in Cloud and Tifa's case.

I actually did put more in depth references, but I edited a lot of that post and quite a few things got left out. Not really sure what happened. Sorry

No need to apologize. I posted the detailed source info for that as much to help you as to correct a mistake.