Since Anastar still had my calm, sober post to respond to, I probably shouldn't have replied to her two posts to me from the past couple of days just yet (especially since she seemed to think half of my comments she responded to were from Ryu). Oh well.
I've done it now and I'm going to let it stand, come what may. I regret nothing.
Not the point. When did the issues start? IMO, Cloud and Tifa had issues with each other during the game, too. Wouldn't Nojima be aware of that?
The domestic issues in CoT couldn't be issues during FFVII for the simple fact that the two weren't yet in a domestic setting. Things that haven't happened yet can't be an issue before they've happened.
Anastar said:
Of course they can. Once again, the date mechanism makes the feelings mutual between Cloud and whatever partner you pick. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then the affection of that partner increases for Cloud. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then Cloud's affection for that partner increases, too. Same thing happens in reverse if Cloud doesn't act nicely to the partner. The partner's affection for Cloud decreases, and Cloud's affection for that partner decreases.
Therefore, if you get the Low Affection version, Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud and Cloud has a low affection rating for Tifa. Therefore, their feelings are mutual in the Low Affection scene.
You're still applying a gameplay-only mechanic to the set-in-stone narrative, despite repeated official statements that Tifa loves Cloud romantically. Within the actual narrative, this is how she always will feel.
The player trying to change it with a gameplay mechanic will no more change Tifa's feelings than leaving Vincent in the basement of the Shin-Ra Manor will make him not join AVALANCHE. She loves Cloud, and Vincent joined the team. Those things cannot be changed.
Not to mention you're still pointing to a scene that simply does not exist.
Anastar said:
And I understand the 10th AU story summary has a picture of the Clerith date scene next to the summary of the date sequence. Does that mean the Clerith date is canon?
Que already cleared this misunderstanding up, but, no, the 10th AU's story summary does not have a picture of any date.
Anastar said:
But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her now, except on an optional basis.
The quote doesn't say "past feelings" or "his feelings when they were children." Just "his feelings for Tifa." That's straightforward.
Anastar said:
Shall I look it up for you?
PRECEPT II.--Treat different topics in separate paragraphs, and distinct sentiments in separate sentences.
Source:
http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Grammar-of-English-Grammars48.html
Yeah, stop trying it.
You're really trying to argue that the two lines are grouped together separate from the rest of the shit on the page, but have no relation to each other? That those two lines are just randomly floating on the page, disconnected from any cogent message?
Bull. Shit. You don't believe that.
Anastar said:
And the name is Aly, not Annie.
There's someone else involved in this discussion I'm used to calling that already. Both for preventing confusion and because I don't want to conflate the two of you in my mind, I won't be calling you what I call her.
Anastar said:
Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?
If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?
If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.
Yeah, except the high affection version does show us what we've been told it contains. We see Cloud looking for the words to convey his feelings, come up short, and then Tifa recommend a physical display instead.
You're inventing a scene that does not exist.
Anastar said:
Then why does SE say it exists?
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.
Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.
SE didn't say what you're claiming they did. Not only is it absurd to claim that Tifa could be disinterested in Cloud, but you keep referring to this concept of a "disinterested conversation scene" as though it makes any kind of sense.
Fuck's sake, the word you've insisted on labeling "apathetic" ("tanpaku"; 淡白) makes more sense as "candid" or "simple." A conversation can be candid/simple and end short.
Which is another problem with your claims about the low affection version of the scene: you keep claiming that a quote that says the scene
ends short somehow indicates that a longer conversation happened after Cloud and Tifa said they were going to sleep.
Anastar said:
Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?
I am paying attention to the quote, goddammit. I'm just not examining it in a vacuum like you are, and then applying the vacuum-sealed results of an isolated analysis to everything outside the vacuum.
You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.
First
The one Que posted several days ago that was said in May 2004:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=369931&postcount=1382
More than a year before Advent Children was released, Nomura was asked what the relationship between Cloud and Tifa was -- and responded that the movie shows it.
Do you see the problem with your claim that he has no idea what their relationship is? He'd already said he did know.
Either he was trying to stir shit up in that quote you keep coming back to, or he was saying he didn't personally know what went on in the two years between FFVII and AC/C, but did know what the status of their relationship was after that. In either case, he hasn't said that he doesn't know.
Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.
And for the last goddamn time, it's not
my quotes and
your quotes. They're all SE's quotes.
Anastar said:
And Nomura being one of the writers of the movie isn't important, either:
"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)
So Nojima didn't write it by himself. Nomura was involved in the writing, too.
To be accurate, that isn't the same as writing the script (not to mention that Nojima's the one who decided that Cloud and Tifa would be together, and is the one responsible for their characterization), but, yes, I'll grant you that Nomura played a significant role in crafting the plot.
By the way:
Why are you still referring to interviews when you've already said you only want to go by what's in games, movies and novellas? Apply an even fucking standard.
According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.
Yeah, bullshit. Que's already pointed to where hito said "koibito" can be one-sided pre-Case of the Lifestream (Ryu did too).
The meaning was always the same. Your attempt at rewriting history with lies? FUCKING FAILED.
By the way, I don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what some invisible Clotis might have said. I didn't say that shit, and they -- whoever the fuck they are, if they even fucking exist -- were fucking wrong.
Anastar said:
I know very little about Japanese ...
We know.
Anastar said:
Actually, there is. See what I have labeled as "cabinet" in the following picture?
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png
That pic's lightened, but you can find the original here:
http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view¤t=vlcsnap-2555669.png
At any rate, that thing in the corner that I labeled as "CABINET" looks like it has drawers to me. Then there's an open trunk right in front of it where he could put clothes.
Annie, your "cabinet" is a box. One not even as tall as the desk. And that "trunk" isn't even as thick as the motorcycle tire laying beside it.
Anastar said:
When you stop to think that he was living in Aerith's Church without a bed or change of clothes or shower or kitchen for several months IIRC, then why do you think he'd be so fussy about the furnishings in his room?
'Cause he's been demonstrated to enjoy the finer things in life (his motorcycle, his clothes, his jewelry, his weapons, etc.), and it doesn't make any kind of sense for his bedroom to be any exception to the thorough attention he gives everything else in his life.
As for how long he was at the church, I don't think that's ever really been specified.
Anastar said:
Also notice the MIRROR - no need for that in an office.
I'm really not seeing a mirror. And, yeah, actually, I've seen mirrors in lots of offices.
Anastar said:
Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff.
Instead of business supplies?
Anastar said:
Oh, and look at the beds in Marlene and Denzel's room!
Once again, only a single mattress with no boxspring. Just like Cloud's bed. Only difference is that they have a bedspread, but I really don't think Cloud would care about that.
And look, they only have ONE cabinet for the two of them. Not much bigger than the one in Cloud's room. Of course, he also has the trunk and boxes to keep stuff in. Oh, and look! They don't have a nightstand either - just like Cloud.
There's a nightstand right there between the two kids' beds. And that actual cabinet is way bigger than the thing in the office you're calling a cabinet.
Anastar said:
It shows the ROCKS surrounded by fucking grass:
So we both see the grass then. Awesome. We're making progress.
Anastar said:
And that photoshop of Tifa kissing Cloud is hilarious, since it never happens. No wonder Cloti's tend to be so full of misinformation.
You keep seeing things that aren't there. That's not a Photoshop -- that's just a GIF of something that actually happens in the game. Which isn't Tifa kissing Cloud; it's her laying her head on his shoulder.
Anastar said:
Anyway - Cloud and Tifa are on ROCKS, not grass.
They're incapable of moving five feet to a patch of grass?
Anastar said:
Furthermore, sex between them is a pure assumption. "Without words" does NOT have to mean sex.
Nojima described Tifa's "without words" line as risque. So, you're wrong.
Anastar said:
For that matter, it seems to me that they confirm feelings at this point without words:
Cloud "............It's almost dawn..."
Tifa "H, huh...?"
(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)
Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud." "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."
(She rests his head on his shoulder again.)
Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
(He nods)
Cloud "Yeah... okay."
(He lowers his head again.)
Cloud "This is probably the last time we'll have together......"
(The scene fades to black.)
Looks to me like they're confirming their feelings without words right there. Maybe that's all SE was talking about. No kiss, no hug, no sex - just sitting together without words.
And what the fuck does that confirm? That they're both fucking sleepy? Give me a goddamn break. I'm so sick of your dishonesty. =|
Anastar said:
1) Retcons aren't always made to "correct mistakes". For example, Zack originally met Aerith while selling flowers. Later, it was retconned into Zack falling into Aerith's Church like Cloud. That wasn't to "correct a mistake". It was done because SE thought it'd be neat to have Cloud and Zack meet Aerith the same way. Safe & Sound isn't so much of a "retcon" as it is "we need a new and different ending for ACC".
"New and different" = retcon. Holy Jesus (clarification: not Aerith).
Where are you getting this "correct a mistake" crap? I never said that.
Sephiroth kicking Cloud through that little rubble wall on the top of the Shin-Ra building instead of Cloud coming to a stop against it wasn't correcting a mistake either, but it is a retcon. Advent Children Complete is full of retcons.
Anastar said:
2) From the TLS timeline:
· AC – The Forgotten Capital
She appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, trying to ease his painful sense of sin and guilt.
If Aerith appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, then she was in the Lifestream at the time she appeared to him. After all, "the spiritual world" is the Lifestream.
What are you even trying to argue here? And did you even notice that you just abandoned your claim that Aerith's spirit is inside Cloud?
Anastar said:
Oh, you've decided I'm right? Then all your Ultimania quotes get thrown out.
Uh, no. I'm pointing out that you're a hypocrite who applies double/uneven standards, and whose goal posts shift like a kid with Tourette's.
Anastar said:
And you're ignorning that FFVII is the ONLY game specified on the FTOIL page to have a divergence.
Only it isn't. You're still lying.
Anastar said:
Why do you keep avoiding my arguments?
I directly responded to what you said for fuck's sake.
Anastar said:
I said:
Your double standards know no bounds, do they?
Same to you.
Okay, you know what? Fuck you.
Mako, Aaron, moderate me. I don't give a FUCK. This miserable little cunt went to a place she should goddamn well know by now not to fucking go. Fuck her and her little fantasy world right up the ass with a parasol.
She's done nothing but lie and attack other people's credibility while ignoring many things people have said, twisting others, and just generally being a dishonest little bitch for the past 80 pages of this catastrofuck of a discussion. And now she wants to go and fucking say that
I am applying double standards?
Fuck her. FUCK HER.
Anastar said:
That's it for tonight - but before I leave, I see that I have something more to respond to:
...
I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it.
Your ink, your paper, and your dime, bitch.