The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Strangelove]

It was made by Brady Games, thus not considered official, but it has Square's logo on it. As far as I'm concerned it's in the same boat as the commercial.

The first part is a lot of their own work, but the "link to FFVII" bit is pretty much what the Crisis Core Ultimania says (except that 'enjoys helping him rebuild his memory' bit).

 

[ClerithRaven]

Zealkin, if itwould not bother you, please direct these questions to Anastar:

1. Are you arguing for the total optionality of the LTD? By total optionality , you saying that who Cloud loves depends on each's interpretation, meaning that there's no factual answer.

If yes, then anything Clerith argues is also invalid as much as Cloti arguments. This is called subjectivity, and it requires honesty to have a value. In speaking of honesty, I ask this second question:

2. Are you arguing for Clerith or total optionality? And if you argue for total optionality, here's the next questions:

3. If you argue for total optionality, total interpretation, then why use official statements?

4. Going by total optionality, why do you favor the date scene over the Highwind scene when the former has 4 options, while the HW scene has only Tifa?

4.1 Are you arguing that the date with Aerith is canon? What is your proof that it's canon?

If you are arguing for the canonity of the date with Aerith than you are NOT arguing for total optionality since you use the date scene as a proof for romance.

4.2 How can you consider yourself neutral if you view the date scene as an indicator of romance why you argue that the HW scene is an indicator of friendship?

In your posts over the past pages you argue that feelings can be shared in the LA version and you say that this is mutual romantic disinterest. However, even if we discuss the HA version, you still argue against the confirmation of romantic feelings. So here's the question:

5. Assuming that you argue total optionality, meaning that BOTH versions can be canon and do not contradict the compilation, are you saying that Tifa and Cloud never had a romantic moment at all?

If you've read through all of her posts, you'd find your answers there.

You don't really confirm feelings of friendship with one another because friendship isn't that hard to express or say. I'm sure the whole party consider each other friends without the difficulty of expressing that feeling. Cloud has a difficulty of conveying his words to Tifa. So what kind of feeling and words are hard to convey that Tifa told him to convey without using words? And why was Tifa so embarrassed if it was only friendship?

Then I've been doing it wrong, and so did Zack. "We're friends, right?"

Anyways, Cloud does have difficulty with expressing himself, that I saw in AC/C and in CC (a bit). Let's consider the fact that Cloud just learned the truth about his past here, that he and Tifa were friends, but didn't know each other much back then. With that in mind, wouldn't he have even a harder time conveying his friendship for Tifa? And about Tifa's embarrassment, maybe because she loves Cloud, but Cloud isn't ready for that yet.

I'm going to repeat my post that was totally ignored by Chantara(we'll she ignores pretty much everybody else anyway.)

You want candy?

 

[Dashell]

Anyways, Cloud does have difficulty with expressing himself, that I saw in AC/C and in CC (a bit). Let's consider the fact that Cloud just learned the truth about his past here, that he and Tifa were friends, but didn't know each other much back then. With that in mind, wouldn't he have even a harder time conveying his friendship for Tifa? And about Tifa's embarrassment, maybe because she loves Cloud, but Cloud isn't ready for that yet.

I'm not following why friendship would be harder to confirm than love... also re bolded part: then the feelings aren't mutual, right?

You want candy?

There's candy?

 

[Danseru-kun]

If you've read through all of her posts, you'd find your answers there.

I asked because she was inconsistent with her stand on whether Clerith is canon or there's no canon (But consistent on repeating the same arguments and ignoring good rebuttals) I've read this debate from page 1, and I've also read all the debates in other sites.

The questions would outline her position, if it's consistent then answering that would not be a problem.

Then I've been doing it wrong, and so did Zack. "We're friends, right?"

Anyways, Cloud does have difficulty with expressing himself, that I saw in AC/C and in CC (a bit). Let's consider the fact that Cloud just learned the truth about his past here, that he and Tifa were friends, but didn't know each other much back then. With that in mind, wouldn't he have even a harder time conveying his friendship for Tifa?

On Zack's case, he's doing it with WORDS, and the HA highwind scene has Tifa and Cloud confirming feelings without words. Also, in the end of CC, Cloud is a helpless vegetable but Zack still keeps on talking with him. That's not a mutual confirmation of feelings of friendship since Cloud is comatose, it's a touching assurance from Zack. Zack to Cloud, not mutual.

Cloud may have remembered, but Zack's already dead at that point.

And about Tifa's embarrassment, maybe because she loves Cloud, but Cloud isn't ready for that yet.

So are you saying that a girl will get so embarrassed that she puts herself down to the floor covering her face because their friends found out that the guy she loves confirmed their friendship? That's unnatural and so immature for a 20 year old.

Gotta put a smiley again

P.S. It was never my intention to get involved deeply here since I just wanted to butt in an insert some comments. I'm busy improving the Guilty Gear Wiki and this has already taken precious time. I'll try to stop myself from posting long posts from now on.

 

[Dashell]

I asked because she was inconsistent with her stand on whether Clerith is canon or there's no canon (But consistent on repeating the same arguments and ignoring good rebuttals) I've read this debate from page 1, and I've also read all the debates in other sites.

Can I just ask, what part makes what she said inconsistent? She's arguing her PoV, the way she sees it. She's not saying her PoV is canon. And FYI, she does NOT consider any date scene canon.

EDIT
and before I'm accused of White Knighting, I'm only arguing for her in this case because I'd much rather see her respond to Zealkin's (and my) posts than posts about what her position is.

 

[Master Bates]

Can I just ask, what part makes what she said inconsistent?

She said:

I asked because she was inconsistent with her stand on whether Clerith is canon or there's no canon

Basically, Anastar is repeating the italicized words as her position in her arguments yet heavily implies the bolded words in same arguments.

But don't mind me coz I'm a confused assfuck.

 

[Vendel]

But there is:

... she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII Game Manual

Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart (lover, boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream White

Kitase: ... And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion
Screenshot: http://clerith.heliohost.org/ACNet.gif

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. ~Tifa's profile, 10th AU

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

Aerith's picture with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a heading saying that Love Develops Between the Heroes. If it's valid for Cloti, then it's valid for Clerith.

So this is your "Cloud loving Aerith" list huh? It seems to be lacking what some would call "substance".

With such powerhouse pieces of evidence, like a screen-cap from a north American commercial, a description of some random magazine and a description of a picture on the FTOIL page without actually addressing the text, I don't know why this debate even needs to go on.

The only thing you are missing is anything that actually states Cloud can love Aerith.

Or heck just something stating that Cloud and Aerith have mutual feelings. It doesn't even have to say what they are. I would just like to see this.

 

[Dashell]

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

And I STILL want to know where this is. Where in the UO is this? It's not Aerith's profile, is it Cloud's? Does anyone know who translated this so I can ask them?

and no I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I just want to know what the actual quote is with context and all.

 

[Octo]

If you've read through all of her posts, you'd find your answers there.

Like Danseru-kun said, we've read all of the posts in this thread and we're still confused. I don't think its to much to ask for a clarification, and personally I would be happy to answer the same questions if directed at me.

I asked because she was inconsistent with her stand on whether Clerith is canon or there's no canon (But consistent on repeating the same arguments and ignoring good rebuttals) I've read this debate from page 1, and I've also read all the debates in other sites.

The questions would outline her position, if it's consistent then answering that would not be a problem.

I think its vitally important that people make their positions clear, it just saves a lot of time wasting and confusion. I know Anastar has a few other posts to reply to as well but I (and I suspect a few of us) would like Danserus post answered too, preferably in one go, and answering each question individually.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Can I just ask, what part makes what she said inconsistent? She's arguing her PoV, the way she sees it. She's not saying her PoV is canon. And FYI, she does NOT consider any date scene canon.

That's why I asked with the use of IFS. I was simply asking her, all she has to do is to answer. If ____ then _____? Why? Simple as that.

I think she's inconsistent because she's saying that she's arguing for non-canonity yet uses her Clerith evidences for support. She's using Aerith as an explanation for "mutual romantic disinterest" or "confirmation of friendship feelings". If I'm the only one who thinks this is the case then I'll admit that I'm wrong but it seems that others agree with me.

If she is consistent, then she will have no problem answering the questions I presented.

I'm only arguing for her in this case because I'd much rather see her respond to Zealkin's (and my) posts than posts about what her position is.

So you're saying that my questions should be ignored because they are not important

 

[ClerithRaven]

I'm not following why friendship would be harder to confirm than love... also re bolded part: then the feelings aren't mutual, right?

Maybe because the memory they shared was about their childhood, where they were supposedly childhood friends? It would make sense to talk about friendship first, before jumping to love immediately.

It still could be. If Tifa agreed to be friends at the moment. I mean, they could still be friends even if one loves the other, while the other doesn't.

There's candy?

For those who'll be extra good this time. :p

I asked because she was inconsistent with her stand on whether Clerith is canon or there's no canon (But consistent on repeating the same arguments and ignoring good rebuttals) I've read this debate from page 1, and I've also read all the debates in other sites.

With Anastar/Chantara in it?

Simple. She does not believe either is canon. But she believes Clerith makes sense. That's why she is debating for Clerith.

The questions would outline her position, if it's consistent then answering that would not be a problem.

She's been repeating herself already. And so does Quex.

On Zack's case, he's doing it with WORDS, and the HA highwind scene has Tifa and Cloud confirming feelings without words. Also, in the end of CC, Cloud is a helpless vegetable but Zack still keeps on talking with him. That's not a mutual confirmation of feelings of friendship since Cloud is comatose, it's a touching assurance from Zack. Zack to Cloud, not mutual.

Zack has a way with words, Cloud doesn't (which helps distinguish him from Zack). That part when they were on the pick-up truck, that was not mutual. But then, as Zack lay dying, didn't they express their friendship? With the living legacy, hugging, montage, and all that.

Cloud may have remembered, but Zack's already dead at that point.

Um. Yeah. But, that's too much info at one time. I mean, "Hey, i just remembered, we knew each other didn't we? I mean, you didn't seem to see me before I called you out on the water tower and started saying I would get into SOLDIER. Then you made me promise to come to your rescue but I don't think I can keep it. Then I acted like a jerk, asking for money when you, my childhood friend asked me to help you guys out. So... yeah. How am I gonna talk to you again?"

So are you saying that a girl will get so embarrassed that she puts herself down to the floor covering her face because their friends found out that the guy she loves confirmed their friendship? That's unnatural and so immature for a 20 year old.

Huh? She goes down to the floor and covers her face?
With the bolded part, I said that Cloud may not be ready for what Tifa was feeling. Maybe (just maybe all right, don't harp on me because this is just a could-be scenario) Tifa agreed with Cloud that they should be just friends, even if for the time being. It would be embarrassing because the lady just admitted to being in love with the guy and the guy doesn't feel the same way.

And there are moments when a 20 year old can act immature, like the time she "let slip her peevish feelings".

Gotta put a smiley again

P.S. It was never my intention to get involved deeply here since I just wanted to butt in an insert some comments. I'm busy improving the Guilty Gear Wiki and this has already taken precious time. I'll try to stop myself from posting long posts from now on.

Nah. The pull will always be strong. I'm quite proud of myself to have been able to stay away for a long time.

P.S.: You don't want candy?

Basically, Anastar is repeating the italicized words as her position in her arguments yet heavily implies the bolded words in same arguments.

Like I said, it's because she believes Clerith makes sense. Clerith is the side she chooses, but she knows the the game itself can be left up to interpretation.

(I hope I'm getting it right, Aly.)

Like Danseru-kun said, we've read all of the posts in this thread and we're still confused. I don't think its to much to ask for a clarification, and personally I would be happy to answer the same questions if directed at me.

And I don't understand why there's a need for clarification. I mean, it's the argument that matters, is it not? And she's arguing for Clerith, which she believes makes sense rather than Cloti.

I think its vitally important that people make their positions clear, it just saves a lot of time wasting and confusion. I know Anastar has a few other posts to reply to as well but I (and I suspect a few of us) would like Danserus post answered too, preferably in one go, and answering each question individually.

If she does answer, what would you do? Question it more? I hope not, because that would be outside the topic of the LTD. It is her POV anyway, which she gained after years of being an FF7 fan.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I have got to say: okay so game says either side is optional, i guess. and yet, as a result of feelings shared, they live together. tifa still seems to love cloud (as confirmed by her 'do you love me cloud' thing in cot), but i guess cloud just views her as a really awesome galpal who he happens to have started a family with and junk. does no one seem to realize how painful it would be to hang out with consistantly, much less start a family with a guy you love but who doesn't love you back?

Aerith's picture with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a heading saying that Love Develops Between the Heroes. If it's valid for Cloti, then it's valid for Clerith.

but the highwind scene doesn't say like 'oh and you can have the highwind scene with anyone it doesn't really impact the plot' or anything of that nature. that's just blatantly ignoring what's said there.

i mean, i realize that ana ain't gonna respond cause................idk i guess it's too complicated to even try or some junk, but how do you look at a picture, go 'oh yeah, see it's valid' and then completely ignore any sort of context it's in? ffs it could have said 'cloud mentions his secret love for zack fair, aerith's former boyfriend. what turmoil does this throw into the love triangle?!' which would have been pro-zack/cloud more than cloud/aerith and basically, what you're saying is that this doesn't matter because the picture is there.

wat

 

[Octo]

If she does answer, what would you do? Question it more? I hope not, because that would be outside the topic of the LTD. It is her POV anyway, which she gained after years of being an FF7 fan.

I wouldn't question it if she was giving a clear and consistent position, something we can all reference.

For the record, and to make it fair. I will state my own position. I am not a 'cloti' as in, I am not particularly bothered if Cloud loves Tifa or not. I have no interest or emotional investment in any pairings involving Cloud, Tifa or Aerith.

I do believe that there is a canon outcome for the LTD, and that subsequent compiliation titles have cemented this outcome.

I am only interested in evidence, truth and a coherent narrative across the Compilation. Thus far, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Cloud/Tifa. It makes sense to me based on the evidence from the original game, compilation entries and Ultimanias/RF, creator comments.

I am not denying that there was a possibility for Cloud/Aerith, or that Aerith wanted to pursue a romantic relationship with Cloud, but there is nothing that suggests that it happened or was even beginning to happen before her death.

This is my position given the information we have thus far. Maybe future compilation titles will provide new information and I will change my position accordingly, because that is the creators perogative.

Everything you see me argue in this thread will be consistent with the position outlined in this thread, and should I ever contradict myself then feel free to quote this post back at me.

If you have any questions regarding my position I will be happy to answer them. This is all we are asking of Anastar

 

[Ryushikaze]

CR, Anastar has been repeatedly stating her overall position, yes.

The problem is that her particular arguments do not mesh with that overall position.

In fact, her overall position is 'supported' by a number of assumptions that to all outside, rational observers appear arbitrary and unfounded, that appear to be convenient 'just so' stories without any evidence.

On the subject of the Sony made commercial- and by the way, someone PLEASE tell Annie that the stance regarding commercials here and pretty much in the entire world is 'Commercials are not to be trusted as authoritative, period, end of speech.'- but setting aside that it's, y'know, made by the english marketing division of another company entirely, Anastar makes a giant stink about how the caption says 'Love' and INSISTS this means Cloud loves Aerith. But there's nothing in the commercial to say it does. All it says is that the game contains a 'love that could never be.' Once again, granting purely for the sake of argument, it never says whose love. It could be Cloud's, it could be Aerith's.
Aerith actually has an established love FOR Cloud, so she is the far more parsimonious answer.

Likewise, Anastar's position that the Affection values- always referred to in terms of X's affection for Cloud- must represent Cloud's affection for each is totally unfounded.
Her related stance that Yuffie and Barret, who also possess this value towards Cloud, are exempt from its consideration- that you can choose if Cloud loves Tifa or Aerith, but not Yuffie, even if her AV are highest- is without basis and entirely arbitrary.

Anastar's stance re: the low affection version is unfounded position after unfounded position.
Firstly, Anastar argues in more than her POV that the low version is low because Cloud loves Aerith, and that's why he loves Tifa less (Even though you can get the low version with Tifa's AV higher than Aerith's), she argues this as narrative fact. If it is merely her unsupported view of things, she need to call it such.
Additionally is her insistence that feelings are shared/confirmed in the low version. The only word that we have on the low version is that it is apathetic and ends short, which means- even using the less common 'indifferent' definition- that feelings were not confirmed. You cannot both be apathetic and contain feelings. It's literally a contradiction in terms. So to can the scene and conversation be apathetic and contain a confirmation of feelings.
Anastar's repeating of her points on this subject are to rephrase the situation to that the actors in the scene are indifferent, but this is not how the scene is described.

Tifa's complex feelings quote.
The word 'jealousy' is never used in the quote, the complex feelings are never called that. That Tifa considers Aerith a love rival is not said (It says Aerith can be considered a love rival). The complex feelings of FFVII and AC are never implied to be the same. Anastar ignores that the quote actually explains why Tifa's feelings are complicated in AC.

Most egregiously, in my mind, however, is her continued and quite false insistence that the FTOIL page and P232 say anything about the mutual confirmation of romantic feelings being optional.
FTOIL says 'Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual [romantic] feelings for each other without words'
P232 says in the story summary 'Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings for each other without words'
In the deviation sidebar, it says 'If the degree of affection is high, the feelings shared will be earnest blah blah blah'
Quite literally, nothing on p232 contradicts the explicit statement of FTOIL. In fact, nearly the exact same words are used in the story section. Even the deviation only mentions that feelings are intense when the affection is high. It says nothing about them being absent when affection is low (for the moment, we will be using Anastar's argument that many of the quotes never specify which version feelings are confirmed in, so they must be confirmed in both)
Neither p232 or FTOIL say anything about a version when the discussion of mutual feelings occurs. By Anastar's logic applied to the other 'confirmation' quotes, this confirmation of romantic feelings can happen in either version as well.
Both the quote on FTOIL and 232 are entirely version agnostic, even with the deviation listing there.

And then there's Anastar's granddaddy of all wallbangers, something she said that not only has NO foundational support at all, but also reveals she's not actually arguing neutrality.
Anastar says that if Cloud doesn't love one woman, he must love the other. Anastar used this statement as support for why Cloud might love Aerith in the LA version despite any actual evidence in favor of such an outcome.

This a named logical fallacy- the false dichotomy, the false statement that there are only two possible outcomes to a scenario.- and Anastar has no evidence at all that Cloud's romance is a zero sum game (At the bare minimum, there are 4 outcomes to who Cloud loves, Both, Tifa, Aerith, Neither).
But I also said this reveals how Anastar is not arguing optionality. It's because Anastar insists that if Cloud does not love Tifa, he must love Aerith (no, I don't presume there's a vice versa in there) and Anastar is trying to show Cloud does not love Tifa.
Yes, Anastar says 'could' be, but Anastar repeatedly goes through 'could' arguments to come to an 'is' conclusion. Did in her C/P essay, has multiple times in this thread.

She's not neutral. We know she's not neutral. SHE knows she's not neutral. We merely think she should stop pretending.

Oh, and COLW never says SEPHIROTH took the woman's life.
It says the MAN took the Woman's life.
Yeah, as long as people continue to be idiotic about the RF quote describing Tifa's role as someone's beloved, so too will I act as though we cannot know who these people are, to show you how silly you are being.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Simple. She does not believe either is canon. But she believes Clerith makes sense. That's why she is debating for Clerith.

If this is so then answering the questions I provided will confirm her stance. I just want clarification from her, using the outline.

Why do I get the impression that my questions are viewed as attacks?

Zack has a way with words, Cloud doesn't (which helps distinguish him from Zack). That part when they were on the pick-up truck, that was not mutual. But then, as Zack lay dying, didn't they express their friendship? With the living legacy, hugging, montage, and all that.

You used the "were friends right?" so I assumed you talked about the truck scene.

Um... was it difficult to express them? Yeah it was because Cloud is incoherent while Zack is dying. Yeah it was hard to communicate under those conditions. But hey, it was through... WORDS.

Huh? She goes down to the floor and covers her face?

I'm sorry, I meant "cover her head," but she does go down to the floor in the HA. In the video she did that thingy, I was not good at narrating actions.

"Dumapa hanggang tuhod, tinakpan ang ulo at napadapa ng tuluyan" Someone translate that for me.

With the bolded part, I said that Cloud may not be ready for what Tifa was feeling. Maybe (just maybe all right, don't harp on me because this is just a could-be scenario).

You're free to interpret and there's no debate in preference. But in this debate, we're not talking about preferences, it's about what the creators intend.

It would be embarrassing because the lady just admitted to being in love with the guy and the guy doesn't feel the same way.

We are talking about the HA scene here where mutual, I repeat mutual, feelings were shared and they "confirmed that their feelings match." If the guy doesn't feel the same, it's not mutual and nothing matches. Pure logic.

P.S.: You don't want candy?

I prefer chocolate, dark choco ^^,

Like I said, it's because she believes Clerith makes sense. Clerith is the side she chooses, but she knows the the game itself can be left up to interpretation.

The game is open for interpretation and each has her/his own. We're debating on the interpretation that's what it's supposed to be, what the creator themselves acknowledge.

Whether to accept the creator's stand or not is another issue though.

And I don't understand why there's a need for clarification. I mean, it's the argument that matters, is it not? And she's arguing for Clerith, which she believes makes sense rather than Cloti.

Arguments take off because of a notion. That's precisely the problem. She mixes her arguments for Clerith to her argument of non-canonity, making her real stand confusing. I prefer that she keeps them separate and stick to one thing at a time. Clerith and non canonity are mutually exclusive. Both of them cannot happen at the same time.

If she does answer, what would you do? Question it more? I hope not, because that would be outside the topic of the LTD. It is her POV anyway, which she gained after years of being an FF7 fan.

If she answers well then I will applaud her. If not, then her unsatisfactory answers will speak for herself. I don't need to question her further.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

If this is so then answering the questions I provided will confirm her stance. I just want clarification from her, using the outline.

Why do I get the impression that my questions are viewed as attacks?

Not an attack, she kinda answered your questions a lot of times now though, I don't really blame her for seeing it again....

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not an attack, she kinda answered your questions a lot of times now though, I don't really blame her for seeing it again....

As I mentioned above, she keeps giving somewhat different answers. She says she is arguing that there is no canon outcome, but she also argues that the LA version did happen and this is is because Cloud loved Aerith.

This may simply be because Anastar has trouble expressing herself- she has used inappropriate words many times in this thread- but she is still out and out confusing people as to her position, because the individual points she argues seem not only to contradict what she says her overall stance is, but often other individual points she argues. Sometimes she contradicts herself from post to post.

Also, Welcome, Giddy, enjoy the forum, we have more than just LTD related nonsense, go enjoy some of that.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Will you give me an example of her where she said the LA did happen? As I recall, her stance on this issue is that the LA version is just as possible as the HA version depending on your choice as a player.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Will you give me an example of her where she said the LA did happen? As I recall, her stance on this issue is that the LA version is just as possible as the HA version depending on your choice as a player.

From her post 17 hours ago.

The quote I gave you says that Tifa still has complex feelings toward Aerith as a woman even two years after Aerith's death, which means that Tifa's still jealous of Aerith. The same quote also says that Tifa views Aerith as a love rival (tense unspecified). Tifa would only be feeling that way if Tifa knew that Cloud still loves Aerith, which is the premise I suggested for the LA version.

If Tifa would only feel this way because Cloud loves Aerith, then Anastar is saying she thinks the LA version is the one that happened.

Anastar is interpolating things into the quote, naturally, but that's not my point. My point is she's arguing that this quote says Tifa is Jealous of Aerith (it doesn't), that Tifa would only be jealous of Aerith if Cloud loved Aerith (This is another false dillema), and Anastar has said she thinks the LA version is LA because you've chosen that Cloud loves Aerith.

She IS saying the LA version happened here.
Even if she isn't, she's still arguing that Cloud definitely loved Aerith, which is also directly anathema to her 'there is no Canon' statement.

This also does contradict herself elsewhere in the same post.

Anastar is here, she actually said she was here, because she was sick of us saying 'C/T is canon.'
That is the only thing she's been fully consistent on. She doesn't think it's canon and she's been arguing against it- and the possibility of it- from the start.
Anastar isn't pro-neutrality. She's anti C/T.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

You are far too kind, Ryu.

In other words, Anstar is flip-flopping and switching her position willy nilly whenever convenient due to the fact her arguments have no leg to stand on. This has been documented by at least 3 ppl. Not to mention that her own arguments are contradictory and don't jive together. Therefore, a lot of people are scratching their heads going "...but you said.."

This is what happens when you invent shit with the sole purpose of attacking another's point. Anastar's arguments have no internal consistency because they are clearly not what the story intended, and as such she has to constantly keep trying to find solution to the problems that arise and each time something new has to be made up, she braches off farther and farther from the actual story.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Thanks for the welcome btw, I'll try to roam around when I have the time.

As for the rest of your post, I'm really not sure how someone can interpolate Tifa being jealous of Aerith as way to show that the LA scene happened. I'll let Aly know...

As for Aly saying saying that Cloud loves Aerith, I'm pretty sure she still maintains that it's her belief and interpretation of the story. That's always been her way ever since I met her...

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Sure it does. It's very simple.
Anastar claims Tifa is jealous of Aeris, and this is because Cloud loves Aeris. Anastar also claims that the Low affection version takes place because neither party (Tifa or Cloud) is interested due to the fact Cloud loves Aeris.

The statement about Tifa's complicated feelings is said to continue from the OG, well into AC. Therefore, following Anastar's logic, the LA version is the one that must have happened. Otherwise you couldn't have Tifa being jealous because she knows Cloud loves Aeris. Of course, that implies there is nothing optional too, but Anastar's constantly running into walls.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thanks for the welcome btw, I'll try to roam around when I have the time.

As for the rest of your post, I'm really not sure how someone can interpolate Tifa being jealous of Aerith as way to show that the LA scene happened. I'll let Aly know...

The interpolation- that which Anastar has personally inserted- is that the feelings are of Jealousy.
But Anastar is still saying that this quote- this non optional quote- says that Tifa is jealous, and that Tifa would only be jealous, etc. if Cloud still loved Aerith. That argument is in direct opposition to her saying everything is optional.

As for Aly saying saying that Cloud loves Aerith, I'm pretty sure she still maintains that it's her belief and interpretation of the story. That's always been her way ever since I met her...

May I ask how long you have known her? Because I recall- and with effort, could almost certainly find- records of Anastar saying that it was how the story is supposed to go.

And if Anastar does maintain that it is solely her belief, she should NOT be trying to say that a quote DEFINITELY says this is the case.
Because she contradicts herself when she does.
And that is precisely why people say that she's inconsistent, that she's flip flopping, that she's inventing ad hoc rationalizations in each post, that she's just making up excuses for each question because she really has no actual position or evidence.

Anastar's arguments are internally inconsistent and not supported by evidence. And worse still, she thinks telling her this is a grievous insult. Hell, she thinks being called silly is an insult.
I've detailed a number of Anastar's oft repeated and foundational points that have no empirical support above.
I have found her apparently stating that Cloud definitely did love Aerith in contradiction to her stated stance that there is no canon outcome.
Even if she maintains- IE: Repeatedly states- one thing, the record itself shows another.
We'd take Annie at her word more readily if her word was something a bit more concrete, both in stance and in backing.

 

[Celes Chere]

She's anti C/T.

This is the only impression I've ever gotten from her to be honest, sorry Anastar if that isn't true. It's hard to believe you think that both couples have an equal chance when you show no example of C/T ever having a possibility of being a pair in your view point. That isn't neutral no matter how you look at it. You can believe both pairings aren't canon, but that doesn't make you neutral. You've made it quite clear that you ship, support, and find proof for CxA and nothing else. Not to mention that you generalize not just everyone in this thread, but the entirety of TLS, claiming that is a 'Cloti Forum'.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

I've met Aly when she first stepped into the debate. Around 98-99 I believe, and she always maintained her support for the story's open-ended structure ever since.

Overall, I'm pretty sure this is just a misunderstanding on both sides. Mistakes here and there were probably made. Not really a bad idea, if we all try to straighten it out right?

The interpolation- that which Anastar has personally inserted- is that the feelings are of Jealousy.
But Anastar is still saying that this quote- this non optional quote- says that Tifa is jealous, and that Tifa would only be jealous, etc. if Cloud still loved Aerith. That argument is in direct opposition to her saying everything is optional.

Which is a suggested premise for the LA version am I right?