The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Master Bates]

What a prick. "hurdur she sucks in a fight vs trained soldiers, imma dump your shit"

Sounds like it's an incredibly self centred and poorly thought out reason to lower your opinion of someone, might say something about Cloud himself perhaps.

Uhmmm... bro, I'm not sure but, you do realize Mei was kidding, right? Cookie Monster was there.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As is my Idiom, I shall respond to Anastar as I see fit, even though I'm on her naughty list for high crimes against decency.
Hello to her fanbase, I see most of you have apparently just signed up to give thanks to her post.
That's all well and good, but do be aware we have an ENTIRE FORUM outside the LTD and pairing clubs, as Prince Roxas has discovered.
Seriously, hang around, learn we're not monolithic blocks of evil (I, personally, am a well rounded and multifaceted block of evil.)

My own silliness aside, onto Annie's silliness. Also, Annie, I hope you realize that you're being called Annie because you've shown yourself as not willing to give respect and consideration to others, who have seen no reason to continue giving it to you.

Zealkin

Yes, it was a long one. It's now about 4:00 am, so I didn't finish the whole thing. I'll get to the rest of it tomorrow.

Optionality Stuff

Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.

Actually, they cannot. Because the LA version is apathetic. It lacks feeling. If no feelings exist, no feelings can be communicated. It's actually very simple.

Ditto what I said above.

No, the creators haven't specified which outcome fills in said blank. Friendship could fill the blank just as easily as love.

Considering they've included one of the scenes in a story summary and called it most impressive, yes, they've filled in the blank. And it's not the 'nothing happens' one.

That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.

You keep saying they 'specify' that it diverges like we don't know they tell us about them. You also keep repeating the fact they diverge like you're waving a flaming sword. But that they diverge is entirely irrelevant.
We know they tell us there's a divergence.
We also know, because we're not refusing to read for comprehension, that only one path on that divergence happens.
Anastar, your insistence that the confirmation of feelings could happen in either version is based on nothing. It's contatextual and extratextual. The only thing we have been told of the low version is that it has a short, apathetic apathetic conversation. Meanwhile, the High version is stressed. It's part of the story summary. It's a most impressive scene in the U20, and apart from the UO, every single instance that mentions the divergence focuses on what happens in the high version.
Even p232, your silver bullet, focuses on the high version.

Anastar, I propose to you a challenge.
Find a quote that says feelings are shared in the low version. Not an argument that they can be. A creator statement or Ultimania quote saying they are.
We have quotes that say if the high highwind scene happened, feelings are shared. We also have quotes saying that feelings are shared. These synergize to show that feelings must have been shared that night. We also have another quote that reasonable people read as saying nothing was shared in the low version, excluding it from consideration.
Your response has been to twist and reconstruct this quote, trying to wrench the word 'apathetic' from referring to the nature of the scene, and force it onto the people in the scene, constructing ptolemian epicycles of ad hoc justificiation each time your frippery is exposed.

Affection Values
Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.

Under the Clerith date on the FTOIL page, it says that "who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior". Therefore, it's the way Cloud behaves that changes the women's affection levels. How he behaves indicates how he feels toward them. The feelings are mutual.

In which case A: Yes, you can love Barret and Yuffie as well, and B: You love EVERYONE more when you answer someone's question in KALM. Look, you're trying to argue narrative relevance for a game mechanic, both ignoring half of the entities affected by the mechanic, and also ignoring the actual consequences of treating this mechanic as actually reflecting on Cloud, much less real Cloud.

Interesting in this scenario, is that Tifa can tell Cloud likes her less for a conversation he never hears (Jesse 'looking forward to it, -3 to Tifa) but Cloud calling her his girlfriend in another conversation she never hears doesn't make her like him more, though apparently Cloud does say it to be extremely hurtful (-5) to Aerith.
Talking to a woman in Kalm makes him love both Tifa and Aerith a bit more, but Barret even more than that. Same with talking to a girl upstairs.
Talking with the man in fort condor makes Cloud like Aerith and Tifa more or less, for some strange and arbitrary reason.
Naturally, being a dick to Yuffie makes him like her more under your rules, even though you think she shouldn't count.
Not having any tranquilizers to settle Yuffie's stomach makes you like her less.
Explicitly not taking someone on you around Gold Saucer means you like them, but a little less than how much you WOULD like them if you took them around. Ignoring them has no affect, even though you're still not taking them.
Also, you bring Aerith to watch a man die because you goddamn love her (+10), But choosing to do the same to Tifa makes you like her far less than giving her a flower (+5) asking for a hard drink (+5) protesting you could never forget the promise (+5), telling her you slept well next to her (+5) or getting out of the train security without being caught (another +5, which actually pushes her over Aerith's starting values. Even if you also tell Jesse yes, simply not being a dick to Tifa and being remotely competent at a minigame makes Cloud love Tifa enough for the HA scene to occur.)

Yuffie giving everyone their materia back makes Cloud like her more.

Hell, simply being clueless about Aerith (something we're told is canonically the case) when Marlene tells him she's interested makes Cloud like Aerith less... and Tifa more.
Narrative sense this does not make.

Oh, and it's the 'Aerith date.' Calling it the 'Clerith' date is very silly. No one calls the other dates the Cloti, Clouffie, or Clarret (Barroud? Which one tops?) dates.

You've never hesitated to do something that you looked forward to? I remember being pretty shy about going out on my first date, too.

Your date had to push you out of the door as you dug in your heels and slid across the carpet?

Highwind Scene
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

Annie, I am giving you full warning here and now that this is another line of argumentation that only winds up hurting you in the end. Because you have no such quote either. ALL you have is an unspecified 'love' from a commercial. You have nothing saying Cloud's feelings for Aerith are love. Not even optionally.

Give me a quote saying this, or your idea is unsupported.

This, yet again, Annie, cuts you to the quick more than you know.

Yes, but I say it's optional. You say it's canon.

Annie, Zealking was pointing out that you are flip flopping on this subject, alternately denying the HA scene is romantic and saying that it is.

The quotes you gave me above don't specify whether Cloud feels love or friendship toward Tifa, so the HA version didn't definitely happen.

Anastar, please provide us a quote saying feelings are communicated during the low version or your idea is unsupported.

No, you said that no feelings are expressed. I said it's apathetic and ends short. "Apathetic" can mean that no feelings are expressed, but that's not the only meaning - as I've said before. It can also mean that FEW feelings are expressed, or it can also mean that indifference is expressed.

No, Anastar, that is not possible. The conversation lacks feelings or is indifferent. It is not a lack of feelings expressed or an indifference expressed, that is the state of the conversation itself. Now, if you think the conversation is indifferent, that is the same result- no feelings are shared, it is an indifferent conversation.
Annie, I rarely swing my degree around, but literary analysis is quite literally my department. Stating that a conversation is apathetic or indifferent means that nothing of emotional note happens in the conversation. It is lacking emotion, lacking feelings, even if the PEOPLE involved do not.
This is basic English and basic Japanese. Apathetic modifies Conversation. Thus, the conversation, not the people involved, which lack emotion.

"Ending short" also doesn't mean that no feelings are expressed. It means that the conversation is brief. "I love you" is brief, isn't it? "I hate you" is brief, isn't it? Yet, both convey plenty of feeling.

Neither is without feeling or expressing indiference. That argument falls flat.

Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?

Cloud. CoT. I know you hate reading it because it's about Tifa, but do try and keep up.

Well, in the first place, they didn't start a family together. It was Barret who brought up the idea, and Marlene asked Cloud to join the family. The way Marlene says it, it sounds like there's a family already existing before Marlene asks Cloud to join.

10th Anniversary Ultimania says your interpretation is wrong, that Marlene's childish offer didn't form the family.

Where does it say that their friends see them as an item?

CoB. Both Barret and Cid make the comment. Cid even uses a comment that directly refers to relationships.

Why does Cloud need to be a boyfriend in order to leave her behind? He's a man. He can leave a friend behind as easily as he can leave a girlfriend behind.

And we once again get into semantics rather than reading for comprehension. 'Any woman left behind by a man' is not used to refer to purely platonic or fillial relationships.

And the LA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the Compilation, too. Therefore, it is your interpretation.

Anastar, you're going to need to actually SUPPORT these things. You simply assert them. You responded to Zealkin's evidence with 'I don't remember that' and then asserted your own conclusion as having equal weight.

Why don't the quotes you gave me above say that Cloud loves Tifa instead of saying that he has feelings for her? Why doesn't it explain that the feelings are love if it's supposedly true?

They do explain they are love. Not all of them, certainly, but enough of them. But you refuse to admit they mean love, because you continue to insist, without ANY textual backing, that they could refer to either version.
Also because you continue to insist that the FTOIL page is version specific. It isn't. It never mentions a version. P232 never explicitly mentions romantic feelings aren't confirmed when the degree is low, it merely says what happens when it's high, to turn your backwards logic around on you.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about when you say, "it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference." There's nothing about "difference feelings" or "indifference" in the Deviation descriptions.

It also never says feelings are shared in the low version. Hasn't stopped you.

As for "That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship" - you're making an assumption when you say they don't communicate anything during the LA version.

You're making the assumption that they do. Zealk is closer to the null hypothesis than you are, sunshine.

The description of "apathetic" can mean that they are indifferent to each other romantically. If they're indifferent romantically, then they're not interested in a romantic relationship with one another. I don't know if you've ever been very good friends with a man and you want to keep it that way instead of getting involved romantically, but it's happened to me. Sometimes things just need to be clarified, and usually the conversation is brief.

Once again, you misattribute what is apathetic, and you add ad hoc argument after ad hoc argument beyond that.
You argue with a 'can mean' instead of 'does mean.' You need evidence to go from mere possibility to probability or certainty. And really, thanks to the fact you're misattributing 'apathetic' you don't even have possibility.

And do you agree with everything that I explain to you?

You'd have to explain something first. You seem to simply assert and invent 'just so' stories instead.

Koibito can mean "beloved", or it can mean "sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend". "Beloved" can mean one-sided, or it can mean two-sided romance. There is nothing to specify that "koibito" means one-sided or two-sided in that sentence.

And that's not according to me - that's according to what people who know Japanese have told me. [/quote]

Guess what, IT'S FUCKING IRRELEVANT. In either case, Tifa is beloved in a romantic sense by someone relevant to the plot of the movie.
Connect. The. Dots.

There's also nothing that makes it definite that the use of koibito in that sentence is referring to Cloud. It's possible, but it's not definite.

It's more than possible, It's bloody fucking obvious.
Question, is Tifa referred to in the context of any other man in the course of RF?
Tifa and Cloud are repeatedly, emphatically, and inexorably linked in the RF and all the other sourcebooks. Be reasonable for a moment. Ask yourself why they'd emphasize this connection every chance they can, and then refer to some other person, never mentioning them or their importance to Tifa or the movie, in this one instance.
Step back from the pointilism, and see all the beautiful dots merge and make a complex and revealing picture.

And no, Johnny wasn't in AC/ACC, but he is part of the Compilation since he was in Case of Denzel.

Even if RF wasn't about Advent Children specifically, your argument still falls flat for reasons outline in the above paragraph.

Reunion Files

In the first place, Aerith was never said to have a maternal bond to Cloud. Tifa was.

In the first place, Tifa was never actually said to have a maternal bond to Cloud. That happens to be an easily verified translation error, as your current Japanese expert- and you go through those so often- JayM should be able to tell you.

But the main point is that there is nothing about Cloud having a romantic relationship with Tifa on that page.

Sure there is.
On that page, the page before it, p73, Cloud's U10 profile, Tifa's U10 profile, the CCU, the U20, tons of shit.
Anastar, we have tons of quotes you need to ADAMANTLY INSIST aren't romantic.
You have a badly worded commercial as your keystone evidence.
Give up.

Shera was with Cid when Avalanche first got to Rocket Town in FFVII. Shera was living with Cid. They were not romantically involved at that time. Cid left with Avalanche, so Shera got left behind by a man that she wasn't romantically involved with.

So, you're trying to cast aside all colloquial meaning now, then? Because that's what you're doing here. You're reading the argument explicitly literally.

And WHAT feelings has Tifa communicated with Cloud? Doesn't say that Tifa has communicated that she loves Cloud. How do you know that Tifa didn't communicate that she only wants to be friends?

Because A: Tifa DOESN'T only want to be friends, and B: said feelings have explicitly, and without any mention of a version, been referred to as romantic, and as being confirmed without words that night.

I brought that up because that would be a way to know that the bit about "sweetheart" is referring to Cloud.

Both of the pictures shown are when Tifa is talking about Cloud with Marlene. There's your context. It relates to Cloud.

It's not accurate because Tifa barely knew Cloud during their childhood. She said so to Cloud during the Lifestream event.

Again, no, she never says such a thing. She says she supposes they weren't 'that close' but that does require a certain level of closeness beyond 'at all.'

Also, the FFVII UO says that Tifa didn't take notice of Cloud before the Promise was made, and he left to join SOLDIER shortly after the Promise was made:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire.~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged.[/B] It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Cloud left for SOLDIER 4 months after the promise.
And taking romantic interest in Cloud and having him be a part of her life are not the same thing.

So she's known Cloud during FFVII and afterwards. As of the end of AC/ACC, she'd only been with Cloud a total of about 3 years at the most. I wouldn't call that a "large part of her life."

Even if we don't count anything before 7 begins, 1/10th of her entire life to date is not a large portion of her life?

- And it's now 4:00 am, so I need to get some sleep. I'll finish the rest tomorrow.

You keep doing this. You have been told repeatedly that it irritates people, along with the unneeded blue text. You continue to do it. I can only assume it is intentional and hostile.

 

[Anastar]

Zealkin

(my answers continued)

Then page 19 goes on to say:

... but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. ~page 19, the Reunion Files

See anything confirming romance? I don't.

Page 20 goes on to say:

... she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director Nomura said that he wanted me to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. ~page 20, Reunion Files

Nothing about romance there. Instead, it sounds to me like the woman in the LA version of the HW scene who's hoping that Cloud will someday get over Aerith.

Okay no where does it even mention Aerith. Tifa understands Cloud most but it is true she does not understand everything about him, like why he would go off alone away from a family he loved to die?

In the first place, I said it SOUNDS TO ME like the woman in the LA version of the HW scene who's hoping that Cloud will someday get over Aerith. "Sounds to me" means that it's my opinion, not something stated by SE.

As for Tifa understanding him well, that's contradicted by the statement in RF on page 19 that she doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart, and this makes her uneasy.

As for why he would go off alone away from a family he loved to die, there's many possible reasons. I think he states one at the end of AC/ACC when he says that he's not alone... not anymore. To me, that clearly means that Cloud was feeling alone before AC/ACC while living with this "family". I would say that means he wasn't as close to them as you think.

I think it's also very significant that he went to Aerith's church. He wants to be as close as possible to Aerith while he's dying instead of with Tifa. To me, that would indicate that Aerith is more important to him than Tifa. That's reinforced by Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephy asks Cloud what he cherishes most.

Or why he would drag around an incredible guilt where she and her friends have moved on?

Sorry, but what "she" are you talking about? Aerith or Tifa?

And if we're going to play the guessing game we cannot accurately assume what those complexities are.

I don't think it matters what those complexities are. Regardless of what those complexities are, it means that Tifa doesn't understand Cloud as well as you would like to think.

And the second half, you have to be WITH man to be left behind by one, so this hurts your case more than helps it.

Like I said yesterday, Shera was with Cid in Rocket Town when Avalanche first got there in Disk One. Shera was living with Cid, but she wasn't romantically involved with Cid at that time. If anything, Cid hated her for interfering with the rocket launch. Cid left Shera behind when he left Rocket Town with Avalanche, but they weren't romantically involved.

And as a further add on if you don't believe the reunion files are accurate why do you continue to use them?

You're using a quote from page 19 of the Reunion Files to say that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. I was looking at the other information provided on pages 18, 19, 20, and 21 (other than the quote on page 19) to show that there's nothing to indicate that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Since there's no indication of romance, then why should we believe that one quote means that Tifa is Cloud's koibito, especially when his name isn't even used?

Later on page 20:

Tifa's a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~page 20, Reunion Files

Again, no indication of romance. So just what is koibito on page 19 referring to?

So since the woman in COLW indicates her feelings for Cloud they also don't have any influence because Cloud input isn't even mentioned, nor is there a picture of Cloud near the novella?

First, I know you didn't say this, but I've heard others question how we know the woman in CoLW is Aerith. Well, we know it's definitely Aerith, because it says that she's an Ancient (Cetra) who is saying that Cloud is a friend. Aerith is the only Cetra who is a friend of Cloud's.

Now, to the other parts of your question: Cloud's input isn't mentioned in the Reunion Files, either. Furthermore, Cloud's input to Tifa in the HW scene is said to be optional.

As a further comparison, the sentence with koibito on page 19 of RF doesn't use Cloud's name, Cloud's picture isn't used, and there are no references to Tifa having a romantic relationship with Cloud on pages 18, 19, 20 or 21. Therefore, it's purely conjecture to say that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. Yes, it's possible - but there is no confirmation of it except on an optional basis under the HW.

Same with koibito in CoLW. I'm not saying it's impossible that koibito means "beloved" in CoLW, or that it's impossible that it could mean that the feeling is one-sided. What I'm saying is that it is just as possible that it means a mutual feeling between Cloud and Aerith. Why? Because the meaning of koibito can mean a mutual relationship as easily as it can mean a one-sided relationship.

Since there is no official translation of CoLW, then we have no idea whether SE would translate koibito in CoLW as "beloved" or as "sweetheart". More than one translation is possible.

As you can see, most people at the following link think koibito's primary meaning is a mutual relationship, and that there's no reason to think it's one-sided:
http://japanese.livejournal.com/1745896.html

One even referred to the LTD "shipping war":

Is this that stupid fandom shipping debate again? This has been posted about here before (but a couple of years ago), and the answer is that there's no reason to think it's one-sided.

Page 21 then goes on to talk about Tifa's 3D model for the film and selecting Ms. Ito as her voice actor. Nothing about romance.

So just what confirms that Cloud is Tifa's koibito?

Many many things, it's buildup, it's not just one event.

Ah, so there's no actual confirmation of it?

Page 21 talks about how Tifa has a huge burden herself, and says that the film doesn't give a clear look at what's going on inside of Tifa's head. It says there's one scene where she tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. Later, she feels guilty about it, but that was taken out of the final cut. Nothing to indicate that Cloud's her koibito.

How does telling Cloud whats going on inside of her heart not romantic?

Because the scene that they're talking about is the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene. We know that because the book says there's only one scene where she opens up, and the "dilly dally" scene is the only scene where she opens up. When it says that Tifa tells Cloud what's going on in her heart, it means that she's being frank/candid with him - not that she's saying anything romantic.

She wouldn't just blurb that to anyone, it has to be someone she's comfortable with, like a koibito

I think Tifa would say what she says in the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene to a friend. She tells him not to give up when she learns he has Geostigma, and tells him that Denzel's not giving up. They're close friends - Cloud doesn't need to be Tifa's koibito for her to say that to him. She'd say the same thing to Barret in a similar situation.

Relationship after the game

You don't need a romantic relationship to have relationship problems. You can have relationship problems getting along with a roommate, for example - whether or not you're romantically involved with that roommate. Tres and I have trouble getting along, and we're not romantically involved. Do we have a relationship? We used to be friends (or so I thought) while he was at the CxA forums and the Northern Crater, so yes - I thought we did.

There's a difference when it's mentioning relationship problems to two people that have been living together, know each other well, have a romantic scene communicating feelings together and raising children together. Lol I doubt you and Tres will go through that together.

But the romantic scene is optional. It doesn't have to happen.

So if the romantic scene didn't happen, could the same thing happen to two friends living together? I don't see why not. As I said in my last answer, Tifa would very likely be able to open up to Barret. In fact, we saw her do that on a number of occasions during FFVII. Barret and Tifa were living together before FFVII started. Tifa was helping Barret raise Marlene at that time. Barret and Tifa had problems at times, too, but they weren't romantically involved.

To me, it came across as Tifa trying to help Cloud by offering to talk with him. When he says no, she loses her temper.

So how does that translate into Tifa wants to communicate that she still has romantic feelings for Cloud wants to tell him but then she is rejected? She just wanted to comfort him, like you just described.

You misunderstood. I didn't mean that Tifa was wanting to communicate that she still has romantic feelings for him. I can't find the exact passage where I talked about this, but I was saying that Tifa tried to reach out to him by offering her help after she learned that Elmyra wanted Cloud to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. Tifa was reaching out to Cloud by trying to offer her help, not by wanting to talk to him about her romantic feelings.

It's in the Novella too:
"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT)

It's not. it's in relation to how Tifa, as well as everyone else was moving on, while Cloud has not.
The bolded part is what I'm trying to get at, she is overcoming her guilt, when she sees Cloud still wallowing in his(after delivering the flowers) and not letting her in she gets angry, she is moving on, but he is not.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I first brought up that scene because it showed Tifa trying to reach out to Cloud, but he rejected her help. You're talking about how Tifa's overcoming her guilt and Cloud is not.

How the two of them are dealing with guilt does take place in CoT. What I'm saying is that the quotes you're using aren't in reference to the scene where Cloud is drinking and Tifa says to "go to your room".

Look up the quote you gave me:

"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT)

That quote is on this page in CoT: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page08.php
That's when Cloud is just starting the delivery service. He hasn't gotten that order from Elmyra yet, and it's not when he's drinking himself into oblivion. So yes, it's part of CoT, but it's not referring to the scene where Tifa tells him to go drink in his own room.

So sorry, but I think we're talking about two different things.

No, I meant give me a quote stating that since Tifa knew Cloud loved Aerith she decided to not share her feelings with Cloud, I've never heard of that...

However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?

She does until she lectures him. That's where she lays everything down, he was wallowing, being inconsiderate towards her and the children's feelings so she snaps at him, it is here that she lays out her issues with his behavior.

Again, we're talking about two different things. You asked me to show where it says that Tifa kept feelings to herself instead of revealing her feelings to Cloud. I showed you such a quote on page 19 of RF.

Then you replied by saying that Tifa did reveal everything when she lectured him. I'm wondering how in the world you know that Tifa revealed everything when she lectured him? She did lecture him about giving up and his recent behavior - but she said nothing about her feelings for him, other than offering support.

So it doesn't look to me like she revealed everything.

Also, her profile in the 10th AU says:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

You're leaving out the "This was due to" part the quotes in itself explains why Tifa has these complicated feelings. And we can't play the guessing game and define what these feelings are.

No, I didn't leave out the "This was due to" part of the quote - but I think the part I highlighted explains why Tifa has these complicated feelings.

"Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's."

The quote says right there that Tifa has these complex feelings as a woman [jealousy] toward Aerith because Aerith had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. It says this right after it says that Tifa and Aerith were love rivals. So that's where the complicated/complex feelings are coming from, not from Cloud's continued guilt.

If Tifa has complex feelings as woman toward Aerith, I haven't seen Tifa express that to Cloud - have you? To me, that means Tifa's keeping it to herself.

Your quote above explains why though, and what are those complex feelings exactly? We can't really assume what they are.

I think the quote above makes it more than clear what those complex feelings are. Tifa is feeling jealousy toward Aerith two years later in AC because Aerith had formed a bond with Cloud that was different than Tifa's - that's why Tifa and Aerith were love rivals.

It says that Aerith had formed a bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. If Tifa is jealous of that bond and has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith because of that bond, then it's clearly suggesting that Cloud's in love with Aerith while he's not in love with Tifa.

Completely disinterested? You mean disinterested in a friendship with him, too? I see no indication of that.

You have seen the 10th AU, and Tifas profile. They were considered to be friends. So what comes after friends is?

I've never argued that Cloud and Tifa weren't friends. What I'm arguing with is that Cloud and Tifa became more than friends on anything other than an optional basis. I say SE has left it up to interpretation.

Complex feelings:

And as a side note, if Tifa supposedly is the one to know Cloud the best, and is the only one he's opened his heart to, how would she not know that he harbors no interest for her? Since she knows him so well she should know that her chasing after him would be a fruitless venture since he's in love with Aerith....

Page 19 of the Reunion Files says otherwise:

Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of her heart, and this makes her uneasy. Nonetheless, she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. (Nojima)

This is from a source that you supposedly don't trust, so do you trust it's information or not?

I'm not the one with the question. I'm answering your question with a source that you trust.

Sorry, but that's all I have time for right now.

 

[Zealkin]

Zealkin

Yes, it was a long one. It's now about 4:00 am, so I didn't finish the whole thing. I'll get to the rest of it tomorrow.

Optionality Stuff

Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.

Ditto what I said above.

The La version describes an apathetic scene, feelings are not communicated, the HA scene is the only one that has feelings being communicated, these feelings are of Love, we know this because it's on the page FTOIL page, and You might have lost my previous post that I sent awhile ago so I'm going to bring up some points I made in it awhile ago.

Chantara:

I've been discussing it at length here in this thread, but to sum it up as briefly as possible:

1) Cloud's love for both girls is optional. That's established on the FTOIL page.​

1. The FTIOL page? How does that make anything optional? I know you've talked about this page countless times with others but I'd really like a direct reply to this reasoning. Final fantasy 7 was rated T, it's audience is mainly for people aged from 13-18(for this fandom it's beyond but I digress) the deviations are not listed on the page given, and the explanations that you've given(correct me if I'm wrong) go along the lines of the number on the side of the picture indicate deviation, and due to those numbers being there that makes the scene optional.

Or something along those lines. The way to come to this conclusion is too complicated and very confusing, why would Square make a page that lists every other pairing communicating their love, with one pairings explanation that complicated?
The teenagers I know are pretty dense, and get things mixed up, and sometimes I'm one of them, not catering to their audience, and making a page unprofessional doesn't make sense. Ff6 has a subtitle of platonic love, why didn't they just make a subtitle under optional love for ff7 in general? A commercial artists job is to make things clear and apparent. If Cloud and Tifa were completely optional, and Square made that distinction clear, you can bet your money that commercial designer would make a header for it, it's simply bad marketing to do otherwise.

No, the creators haven't specified which outcome fills in said blank. Friendship could fill the blank just as easily as love.

That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.

Then why not put a subtitle of feelings of friendship? Heck that scene wouldn't even belong there at all would it? The quotes relate back to the FTIOL page feelings are not expressed in the LA version.

And there is no quote that says that says Cloud has low affection for Tifa because he loves Aerith, can you at least meet me half way here and explain your reasoning?
It seems you're just answering my question with another question, so please where is the quote that says Cloud and Tifa don't get together because he loves Aerith, I've explained my reasoning please explain yours.

Affection Values
Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.

Under the Clerith date on the FTOIL page, it says that "who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior". Therefore, it's the way Cloud behaves that changes the women's affection levels. How he behaves indicates how he feels toward them. The feelings are mutual.

You've never hesitated to do something that you looked forward to? I remember being pretty shy about going out on my first date, too.

So what happens when it's an ACCIDENT? The barrel thing drove me crazy, because I didn't get the pattern right and I ended up hindering Aerith rather than helping her, how does that have anything to do with Clouds affection for her if he does it by accident? Was he not trying hard enough?

more date mechanics:
When you first meet Red XIII: "Tifa, I'm countin' on you!" (-2 Tifa)
Why is Cloud depending on Tifa LOWER her affection rating for Tifa?
He's depending on her why would that make him dislike her?

Highwind Scene
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

Give me a quote saying this, or your idea is unsupported.

All of the quotes relate back to the Ha scene, the LA scene has no confirmation of feelings, as I've said above. And why are we just saying these feelings are indescribable for Cloud and Tifa?

III – The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.
IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

VI – Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.

None of these talk about love yet you know they're feelings of Love, Cloud and Tifa communicate just like Celes and Locke-whose feelings are not defined either-so why are they any different?

The LA scene doesn't communicate a thing, and until there is a quote that says otherwise, that is a truth, it is apathetic and ends short. Communicating does not take place like it does in the HA scene which is supported by the quotes I posted earlier.

Yes, but I say it's optional. You say it's canon.

Then show me a quote that says neither high nor low occurred, either that or show me a quote that says in the LA version that feelings are communicated because apathetic=/= communication

The quotes you gave me above don't specify whether Cloud feels love or friendship toward Tifa, so the HA version didn't definitely happen.

they were already friends, why would they need to communicate that again?

No, you said that no feelings are expressed. I said it's apathetic and ends short. "Apathetic" can mean that no feelings are expressed, but that's not the only meaning - as I've said before. It can also mean that FEW feelings are expressed, or it can also mean that indifference is expressed.

Which says nothing about communicating, and doesn't have the context that the quotes I've provided do.

"Ending short" also doesn't mean that no feelings are expressed. It means that the conversation is brief. "I love you" is brief, isn't it? "I hate you" is brief, isn't it? Yet, both convey plenty of feeling.

They don't say anything about communicating during the scene, nothing is implied to have been said, like the deviation describes it just ends short. There are no "words aren't the only way" to make the darkness convey anything other than sleeping.

That I love you takes more than just those words, Cloud never actually says it, heck most of the relationships like CecilxRosa, WakkaxLulu and every couple on the FTIOL page don't have teach of the characters saying that they love each other, but do they? yes.

Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?

CoT, you have some problems with it's event order later on in the post too.

Well, in the first place, they didn't start a family together. It was Barret who brought up the idea, and Marlene asked Cloud to join the family. The way Marlene says it, it sounds like there's a family already existing before Marlene asks Cloud to join.

Yet Cloud excludes Barret from the family, there are two separate families, Marlene and Barret and Marlene, Denzel, Cloud and Tifa.

Where does it say that their friends see them as an item?

CoB

Why does Cloud need to be a boyfriend in order to leave her behind? He's a man. He can leave a friend behind as easily as he can leave a girlfriend behind.

Thats a common saying, a colloquialism, have you really never heard it before? Ask any above 14 year old and they will know what you're implying, you're looking at it way too literally.

If we look at things too literally should i considers Clouds undying feelings as monsters you have to kill or something?(that would be a better plot than geostigma) it's not speaking literally but we know what it's saying.

And the LA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the Compilation, too. Therefore, it is your interpretation.

Show me where the LA scene is said to communicate feelings, once again apathetic does not equal communication.

Why don't the quotes you gave me above say that Cloud loves Tifa instead of saying that he has feelings for her? Why doesn't it explain that the feelings are love if it's supposedly true?

They are in the FTIOL and the quotes are constantly relating back to it, why do they have to continue to repeat themselves, showing and not telling is an important part of good writing, simply saying CLOUD LOVES TIFA over and over again is trite and really unnecessary.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about when you say, "it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference." There's nothing about "difference feelings" or "indifference" in the Deviation descriptions.

There was a lot to get to, so the meaning was a bit skewed. there should be a comma there to separate the thought: It even says on the deviation page the difference between the two deviations, feelings or indifference.

As for "That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship" - you're making an assumption when you say they don't communicate anything during the LA version. The description of "apathetic" can mean that they are indifferent to each other romantically. If they're indifferent romantically, then they're not interested in a romantic relationship with one another. I don't know if you've ever been very good friends with a man and you want to keep it that way instead of getting involved romantically, but it's happened to me. Sometimes things just need to be clarified, and usually the conversation is brief.And do you agree with everything that I explain to you?

And you're not? Where does it say that feelings are communicated? If they meant communicated why go through that jargon and simply say what they mean? It's bad communication and the way you're arriving at that conclusion is not something an ordinary person would notice right away.

Some people don't even know what apathetic mean(yes it is sad but true) You're stretching the meaning far beyond what is required. This isn't poetry it's not condensed you are not MEANT to extract any hidden meanings, it is meant to convey information, not confuse adolescent teens.

Koibito can mean "beloved", or it can mean "sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend". "Beloved" can mean one-sided, or it can mean two-sided romance. There is nothing to specify that "koibito" means one-sided or two-sided in that sentence.

And that's not according to me - that's according to what people who know Japanese have told me.

There's also nothing that makes it definite that the use of koibito in that sentence is referring to Cloud. It's possible, but it's not definite.

So it's not one sided when Aerith says it and there's no indication of Clouds say, but it is one sided when it applies to Tifa and Cloud is the only one that she would love back? Gah link time:http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

And no, Johnny wasn't in AC/ACC, but he is part of the Compilation since he was in Case of Denzel.

Yet he is only talked about once in the RF, and that just so happens to be in Tifa's profile concerning love when she hasn't even recognized his existence in two years?

Reunion Files

In the first place, Aerith was never said to have a maternal bond to Cloud. Tifa was.

And why can't she have a maternal bond to a man she loves, plenty of woman in marriages do anyway, and that isn't the only bond they have with one another.

But the main point is that there is nothing about Cloud having a romantic relationship with Tifa on that page.

Alluding happens, because when a writer doesn't want to make something sound trite they add a little style to something, they don't have to repeat the same thing, Square has been saying for awhile now if it's common knowledge.

Shera was with Cid when Avalanche first got to Rocket Town in FFVII. Shera was living with Cid. They were not romantically involved at that time. Cid left with Avalanche, so Shera got left behind by a man that she wasn't romantically involved with.

Like I said yesterday, Shera was with Cid in Rocket Town when Avalanche first got there in Disk One. Shera was living with Cid, but she wasn't romantically involved with Cid at that time. If anything, Cid hated her for interfering with the rocket launch. Cid left Shera behind when he left Rocket Town with Avalanche, but they weren't romantically involved.

Once again you're taking the quote way too literally, and they were not even in a relationship at this point, which is what the statement usually implies.

And WHAT feelings has Tifa communicated with Cloud? Doesn't say that Tifa has communicated that she loves Cloud. How do you know that Tifa didn't communicate that she only wants to be friends?

Because they were already friends, nothing says that she has decided to do this, and unless there is a magical quote that I'm missing that says as much, she's communicating her feelings of love, like it says on the FTIOL page.

I brought that up because that would be a way to know that the bit about "sweetheart" is referring to Cloud.

through the compilation itself, and if we're getting technical Tifa is talking about lecturing Cloud with Marlene on that page.

It's not accurate because Tifa barely knew Cloud during their childhood. She said so to Cloud during the Lifestream event. Also, the FFVII UO says that Tifa didn't take notice of Cloud before the Promise was made, and he left to join SOLDIER shortly after the Promise was made:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So she's known Cloud during FFVII and afterwards. As of the end of AC/ACC, she'd only been with Cloud a total of about 3 years at the most. I wouldn't call that a "large part of her life."

The point is it's not talking about romantic involvement, the fact that Cloud has been around her life is what it is talking about "a huge part of her life" Cloud was around her and a part of her life for a long time, whether it was there childhood, Tifa looking up Cloud in the papers, them sharing a good amount of memories together, and then them joining AvALANCHE together, that IS a large part of her life.

The real question is if you don't believe the information is accurate why are you contradicting yourself by using it further on in your post?

In the first place, I said it SOUNDS TO ME like the woman in the LA version of the HW scene who's hoping that Cloud will someday get over Aerith. "Sounds to me" means that it's my opinion, not something stated by SE.

Then why are you using your opinion like it's proof? This isn't really about arguing opinion, it's about using fact to support yourself, so opinion doesn't really help you here.

As for Tifa understanding him well, that's contradicted by the statement in RF on page 19 that she doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart, and this makes her uneasy.

Just because Tifa is the woman who knows Cloud best, does not mean that's she knows everything about him. What do you consider to be canon material if everything is contradicted anyway?
edit:
also how is this indicative of her not being very close to him? Especially in light of quotes that have said she's the only one he has opened his heart to? Does one ever fully understand another person?

As for why he would go off alone away from a family he loved to die, there's many possible reasons. I think he states one at the end of AC/ACC when he says that he's not alone... not anymore. To me, that clearly means that Cloud was feeling alone before AC/ACC while living with this "family". I would say that means he wasn't as close to them as you think.

It's not opinion, it's fact:
"In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past."


"The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"
(10th AU)

He does care about his family and WAS happy with them, that is a fact.
edit:why the quotes that speak of him being happy there, and feeling guilt because he has that happiness? Why the emphasis on them in ACC (Cloud himself speaks of how they were always there for him) and the 10th AU story summary for the movie? And -- when he's saying at the end of the movie that he's only now not alone -- if he didn't mean the self-imposed loneliness he deliberately placed upon himself, then why did he not stop feeling alone after he started staying at Aerith's church? And if it's all about Aerith, why -- in the scene where the 10th AU says she is departing for the Lifestream -- is he only now getting to not be alone? Is he going to be all over again since she's said to be leaving?

I think it's also very significant that he went to Aerith's church. He wants to be as close as possible to Aerith while he's dying instead of with Tifa. To me, that would indicate that Aerith is more important to him than Tifa. That's reinforced by Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephy asks Cloud what he cherishes most.

W-what?
"Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality."
(1oth AU)
Where does this even happen? Cloud leaves because of his disease! Because of his guilt, No where does it say he leaves because he wants to die near Aerith.

Sorry, but what "she" are you talking about? Aerith or Tifa?

Tifa. Does Aerith even have guilt?

I don't think it matters what those complexities are. Regardless of what those complexities are, it means that Tifa doesn't understand Cloud as well as you would like to think.

Understanding someone better than most, does not mean you understand everything about them. Especially when you make Derp moves like Cloud does

You're using a quote from page 19 of the Reunion Files to say that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. I was looking at the other information provided on pages 18, 19, 20, and 21 (other than the quote on page 19) to show that there's nothing to indicate that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Since there's no indication of romance, then why should we believe that one quote means that Tifa is Cloud's koibito, especially when his name isn't even used?

But you have said yourself that you don't think that the reunion files are even canon, so which is it? And it is a part of the whole compilation not just the Reunion files that confirm their relationship, Quex had a very nice breakdown of their relationship.

First, I know you didn't say this, but I've heard others question how we know the woman in CoLW is Aerith. Well, we know it's definitely Aerith, because it says that she's an Ancient (Cetra) who is saying that Cloud is a friend. Aerith is the only Cetra who is a friend of Cloud's.

I agree with this argument, so I have said it.

So according to that logic we definitely know it's Cloud, because He and Tifa have communicated feelings of love with one another, Cloud wants her in a different way then before, they raise a family together, Tifa is never said to love another man, no other mans love for Tifa has been relevant, and the fact that they were happy together as a family before Geostigma and guilt rolled in is said often. Tifa is Clouds koibito because of obvious reasons, just like Aerith is the Woman in CoLW because of obvious reasons.

Huh. Square enix puzzles aren't that hard after all.

edit: as a side note: if there's no reason to think it's one-sided in Case of the Lifestream, where Aerith's feelings for Cloud are being described, then why would we assume it's one-sided in the Reunion Files quote, where -- rather than feelings -- Nomura is talking about the roles actualized by Tifa?

Now, to the other parts of your question: Cloud's input isn't mentioned in the Reunion Files, either. Furthermore, Cloud's input to Tifa in the HW scene is said to be optional.

His input isn't in COLW either. And I talked about optionality above.

As a further comparison, the sentence with koibito on page 19 of RF doesn't use Cloud's name, Cloud's picture isn't used, and there are no references to Tifa having a romantic relationship with Cloud on pages 18, 19, 20 or 21. Therefore, it's purely conjecture to say that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. Yes, it's possible - but there is no confirmation of it except on an optional basis under the HW.

So since there is no picture indicating Tifa is an ally in battle she is not one? We know this based of of the whole compilation, the Reunion files are not a separate world, they are a part of the word of ff7.

Same with koibito in CoLW. I'm not saying it's impossible that koibito means "beloved" in CoLW, or that it's impossible that it could mean that the feeling is one-sided. What I'm saying is that it is just as possible that it means a mutual feeling between Cloud and Aerith. Why? Because the meaning of koibito can mean a mutual relationship as easily as it can mean a one-sided relationship.

It can, but the way that it is used in COLW implies that it is not used mutually.
http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...7&postcount=87

Since there is no official translation of CoLW, then we have no idea whether SE would translate koibito in CoLW as "beloved" or as "sweetheart". More than one translation is possible.

As you can see, most people at the following link think koibito's primary meaning is a mutual relationship, and that there's no reason to think it's one-sided:
http://japanese.livejournal.com/1745896.html

One even referred to the LTD "shipping war":

Is this that stupid fandom shipping debate again? This has been posted about here before (but a couple of years ago), and the answer is that there's no reason to think it's one-sided.

But people have translated it, people that know Japanese, and are native speakers, I guess just look at the link I posted above again.

Ah, so there's no actual confirmation of it?

Yes there is, through their hardships, and through their confirmation of mutual feelings you know that it's Cloud. And what of Aerith, don't see a confirmation of her koibito as you've said above yourself.

Because the scene that they're talking about is the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene. We know that because the book says there's only one scene where she opens up, and the "dilly dally" scene is the only scene where she opens up. When it says that Tifa tells Cloud what's going on in her heart, it means that she's being frank/candid with him - not that she's saying anything romantic.

So when Tifa opens her heart she's being candid and honest, and no intimacy is implied, yet when the matters of the heart involve Cloud and Aerith it is intimate then?

I think Tifa would say what she says in the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene to a friend. She tells him not to give up when she learns he has Geostigma, and tells him that Denzel's not giving up. They're close friends - Cloud doesn't need to be Tifa's koibito for her to say that to him. She'd say the same thing to Barret in a similar situation.

But she says it to Cloud not Barrett, it's intimate because of their relationship with one another, and Barrett definitely would not hurt Marlene as much as Cloud has.

But the romantic scene is optional. It doesn't have to happen.

So if the romantic scene didn't happen, could the same thing happen to two friends living together? I don't see why not. As I said in my last answer, Tifa would very likely be able to open up to Barret. In fact, we saw her do that on a number of occasions during FFVII. Barret and Tifa were living together before FFVII started. Tifa was helping Barret raise Marlene at that time. Barret and Tifa had problems at times, too, but they weren't romantically involved.

One scene does have to happen, and I've explained why the other scene does not fit the bill, it's even listed as one of the most Important scenes of the game, something that the LA scene does not hold a candle to. But Tifa wants more than that, shes been stated to want more than friendship. And when did Barret and Tifa have problems that didn't involve blowing something up?

You misunderstood. I didn't mean that Tifa was wanting to communicate that she still has romantic feelings for him. I can't find the exact passage where I talked about this, but I was saying that Tifa tried to reach out to him by offering her help after she learned that Elmyra wanted Cloud to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. Tifa was reaching out to Cloud by trying to offer her help, not by wanting to talk to him about her romantic feelings.

You have said this though:

Chantara:

I think Tifa's the type who would be hopeful and keep dreaming that Cloud may change IF she put herself in that situation. Both Nojima and Nomura even hinted at that in the Reunion Files:

Considering Tifa's background and all she's been through up to this point, she is carrying a huge burden herself. But in this film, you don't get a clear look of what's actually going on inside Tifa's head. ~Nojima, Reunion Files, page 21

Tifa is a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, page 2

That's how we got involved with the guilt and that bar scene because you insisted upon this happening.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I first brought up that scene because it showed Tifa trying to reach out to Cloud, but he rejected her help. You're talking about how Tifa's overcoming her guilt and Cloud is not.

How the two of them are dealing with guilt does take place in CoT. What I'm saying is that the quotes you're using aren't in reference to the scene where Cloud is drinking and Tifa says to "go to your room".

Look up the quote you gave me:

"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT)

That quote is on this page in CoT: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page08.php
That's when Cloud is just starting the delivery service. He hasn't gotten that order from Elmyra yet, and it's not when he's drinking himself into oblivion. So yes, it's part of CoT, but it's not referring to the scene where Tifa tells him to go drink in his own room.

So sorry, but I think we're talking about two different things.

I have looked it up, I have the sequence right:

"During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office. There were many slips that laid scattered about unsorted. One of them caught Tifa’s eye. Client Name – Elmyra Gainsborough
Delivery Item – Bouquet
Destination – The Forgotten City
Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened, but she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith. Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.
It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
“I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.” "


She finds the slip, she realizes Cloud may feeling immense guilt traveling everywhere, and she confronts him about it to find him drinking(which he rarely does) She offers to join him but he refuses, he wants to be alone. Why does she not get to wallow and drink her guilt away while Cloud does? She snaps.
This is the situation we are talking about.

Again, we're talking about two different things. You asked me to show where it says that Tifa kept feelings to herself instead of revealing her feelings to Cloud. I showed you such a quote on page 19 of RF.

Then you replied by saying that Tifa did reveal everything when she lectured him. I'm wondering how in the world you know that Tifa revealed everything when she lectured him? She did lecture him about giving up and his recent behavior - but she said nothing about her feelings for him, other than offering support.

So it doesn't look to me like she revealed everything.

No we're not see above. I did not say she was revealing everything about herself, she reveals everything about Clouds behavior, and how he has acted, immature, irresponsible and him just being a jerk.

I said this already:

She does until she lectures him. That's where she lays everything down, he was wallowing, being inconsiderate towards her and the children's feelings so she snaps at him, it is here that she lays out her issues with his behavior.

You said:

However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?

For the sake of the children, how are romantic feelings for the sake of children? It's talking about her anger towards everything Cloud has been doing and I reiterated that above. Also I'd like to note this has nothing to do with me asking for a quote of Cloud not being with Tifa because he loves Aerith.

No, I didn't leave out the "This was due to" part of the quote - but I think the part I highlighted explains why Tifa has these complicated feelings.

"Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's."

The quote says right there that Tifa has these complex feelings as a woman [jealousy] toward Aerith because Aerith had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. It says this right after it says that Tifa and Aerith were love rivals. So that's where the complicated/complex feelings are coming from, not from Cloud's continued guilt.

Quote breakdown time
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's."

So Tifa has complex feelings towards a girl that is her good friend and is also love rival. Jealous of a bond that she did not have with Cloud(what that bond is is not specified)


"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world."

complicated feelings okay, she had them towards Aerith, but she cannot be a love rival at this point because she is well deceased. so what could they
be?

This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

edit: Why would the previous paragraph tell us more about why she's carrying those feelings in AC/C than the very next sentence, which begins with "This was due to the fact"?
So Tifa has complicated feelings towards Aerith in Advent Chldren because of Clouds guilt and his want of redemption through Denzel. Where are there love rival feeling here?

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

Her complicated feelings continue when his guilt leads him to places Aerith was, and was dragging the past around(while traveling all across Gaia) and was also dragging around something else related to Aerith, which is a guilt that is bubbling up inside of Cloud.

I think the quote above makes it more than clear what those complex feelings are. Tifa is feeling jealousy toward Aerith two years later in AC because Aerith had formed a bond with Cloud that was different than Tifa's - that's why Tifa and Aerith were love rivals.

It says that Aerith had formed a bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. If Tifa is jealous of that bond and has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith because of that bond, then it's clearly suggesting that Cloud's in love with Aerith while he's not in love with Tifa.

Now where does it say even what that bond WAS I'm going to use your card, feeling of the HA highwind aren't described as love, so what makes you think this bond is?

I've never argued that Cloud and Tifa weren't friends. What I'm arguing with is that Cloud and Tifa became more than friends on anything other than an optional basis. I say SE has left it up to interpretation.

But the one that is noted to be one of the most important scenes of the game must be relevant. One scene happened and until a quote is found of the LA scene communicating ANYTHING it's the HA scene that happened.

I'm not the one with the question. I'm answering your question with a source that you trust.

Then why can't you just use other sources that you do trust to prove what I'm, saying is false then? And again just because Tifa understand Cloud best does not mean that she understands everything about him and his bad behavior, she doesn't voice anything about his behavior at first for the children's sake.

Sorry, but that's all I have time for right now.

Could you please just answer it in one go then? It's easier that way, and you can easily just keep saving your responses on Word pad or something.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Zealkin, when you respond to Anastar, will you do me a favor and include the following questions:

-Re: Tifa's complicated feelings; why would the previous paragraph tell us more about why she's carrying those feelings in AC/C than the very next sentence, which begins with "This was due to the fact"?

-Re: Tifa not understanding all the complexities of Cloud's heart; how is this indicative of her not being very close to him? Especially in light of quotes that have said she's the only one he has opened his heart to? Does one ever fully understand another person?

-Re: Cloud not being very close his family; why the quotes that speak of him being happy there, and feeling guilt because he has that happiness? Why the emphasis on them in ACC (Cloud himself speaks of how they were always there for him) and the 10th AU story summary for the movie? And -- when he's saying at the end of the movie that he's only now not alone -- if he didn't mean the self-imposed loneliness he deliberately placed upon himself, then why did he not stop feeling alone after he started staying at Aerith's church? And if it's all about Aerith, why -- in the scene where the 10th AU says she is departing for the Lifestream -- is he only now getting to not be alone? Is he going to be all over again since she's said to be leaving?

-Re: "koibito"; if there's no reason to think it's one-sided in Case of the Lifestream, where Aerith's feelings for Cloud are being described, then why would we assume it's one-sided in the Reunion Files quote, where -- rather than feelings -- Nomura is talking about the roles actualized by Tifa?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Too late. =P

 

[Zealkin]

I think that I covered most of that, but ill tweak my post again when it shows up especially the koibito part, I'm no good at explaining it since I don't speak Japanese so if you could help me with that It would be appreciated

EDIT: added them

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll approve your post, Zealk, just a moment. The problem is we mods can see posts in the mod Queue, but the 'in queue' symbol is easy to miss.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Zealkin, if itwould not bother you, please direct these questions to Anastar:

1. Are you arguing for the total optionality of the LTD? By total optionality , you saying that who Cloud loves depends on each's interpretation, meaning that there's no factual answer.

If yes, then anything Clerith argues is also invalid as much as Cloti arguments. This is called subjectivity, and it requires honesty to have a value. In speaking of honesty, I ask this second question:

2. Are you arguing for Clerith or total optionality? And if you argue for total optionality, here's the next questions:

3. If you argue for total optionality, total interpretation, then why use official statements?

4. Going by total optionality, why do you favor the date scene over the Highwind scene when the former has 4 options, while the HW scene has only Tifa?

4.1 Are you arguing that the date with Aerith is canon? What is your proof that it's canon?

If you are arguing for the canonity of the date with Aerith than you are NOT arguing for total optionality since you use the date scene as a proof for romance.

4.2 How can you consider yourself neutral if you view the date scene as an indicator of romance why you argue that the HW scene is an indicator of friendship?

In your posts over the past pages you argue that feelings can be shared in the LA version and you say that this is mutual romantic disinterest. However, even if we discuss the HA version, you still argue against the confirmation of romantic feelings. So here's the question:

5. Assuming that you argue total optionality, meaning that BOTH versions can be canon and do not contradict the compilation, are you saying that Tifa and Cloud never had a romantic moment at all?

I'm going to repeat my post that was totally ignored by Chantara(we'll she ignores pretty much everybody else anyway.)

You don't really confirm feelings of friendship with one another because friendship isn't that hard to express or say. I'm sure the whole party consider each other friends without the difficulty of expressing that feeling. Cloud has a difficulty of conveying his words to Tifa. So what kind of feeling and words are hard to convey that Tifa told him to convey without using words? And why was Tifa so embarrassed if it was only friendship?

Seriously, I need to put a smiley because people think I'm being too serious

 

[Vendel]

Zealkin, if itwould not bother you, please direct these questions to Anastar:

1. Are you arguing for the total optionality of the LTD? By total optionality , you saying that who Cloud loves depends on each's interpretation, meaning that there's no factual answer.

If yes, then anything Clerith argues is also invalid as much as Cloti arguments. This is called subjectivity, and it requires honesty to have a value. In speaking of honesty, I ask this second question:

2. Are you arguing for Clerith or total optionality? And if you argue for total optionality, here's the next questions:

3. If you argue for total optionality, total interpretation, then why use official statements?

4. Going by total optionality, why do you favor the date scene over the Highwind scene when the former has 4 options, while the HW scene has only Tifa?

4.1 Are you arguing that the date with Aerith is canon? What is your proof that it's canon?

If you are arguing for the canonity of the date with Aerith than you are NOT arguing for total optionality since you use the date scene as a proof for romance.

4.2 How can you consider yourself neutral if you view the date scene as an indicator of romance why you argue that the HW scene is an indicator of friendship?

In your posts over the past pages you argue that feelings can be shared in the LA version and you say that this is mutual romantic disinterest. However, even if we discuss the HA version, you still argue against the confirmation of romantic feelings. So here's the question:

5. Assuming that you argue total optionality, meaning that BOTH versions can be canon and do not contradict the compilation, are you saying that Tifa and Cloud never had a romantic moment at all?

Who knows what kind of answer you would get. I'm sure it would be convoluted and even contradictory. But the real answer is that she used to openly support the "clerith is canon" position. But as more information has come out over the years she has shifted to "it's up to the players" or "open for interpretation". All the while she spends 90% of her time trying to tear down C/T while barely supporting C/A.


What you should be asking is why she has shifted her position argument over these years. But that would probably be ignored as well.

 

[Dashell]

Now maybe I'm wrong but I believe Anastar is talking about her interpretation of the events in her posts. Not saying "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!" but saying what she believed is possible from her POV. She believes it's possible that either HW scene could happen, and that we could be right and she could be right. She believes we're arguing interpretations and not actual canon. I guess that also makes either interpretation of the commercial valid...?

 

[Master Bates]

^But unfortunately for her, Que, not all interpretations are valid. I believe that's what most of this thread is trying to establish while shooting down her arguments.

 

[Anastar]

Zealkin

But I gave two quotes above where SE says that she's keeping things from Cloud. Her profile says that Tifa still has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even two years later in AC. Where did Tifa ever say that to Cloud?

She keeps things from Cloud to try and keep a peace in their familial structure, but that no longer works so she has to yell at him:

"Even though being burdened with painful "memories" is the same for everyone － Unable to do much for Cloud who is always dragging around his regrets for the past, she subconsciously raises her voice."(10 AU)

But you didn't answer my question, and neither does the quote from the 10th AU. Has Tifa ever said to Cloud that she still has complex feelings toward Aerith even now because she views Aerith as a love rival? The 10th AU says that Tifa feels that way, but I haven't seen Tifa say that to Cloud. Or is Tifa keeping that to herself?

Where does it say Cloud and Tifa are not interested in each other because Cloud still loves Aerith? Please show me a quote.

Well, Tifa's profile says that Tifa still has complicated feelings toward Aerith two years later in AC. Sounds just like that situation to me.

that isn't even relating to the highwind scene. What does that have anything to do with it? Unless there is a quote that says the LA scene has Cloud feeling this way then what you're saying is not valid.

What I'm saying isn't valid unless it's stated in an Ultimania or official source? Well, no official source states that the HA HW scene is canon, but many Cloti's here say that it is. It also hasn't been stated in any official source that Cloti is canon, but many Cloti's here keep saying that it is.

So why is it valid that Cloti is canon and that the HA HW scene is canon without an official source saying so, but my interpretation isn't valid unless it's stated by an official source?

The quote I gave you says that Tifa still has complex feelings toward Aerith as a woman even two years after Aerith's death, which means that Tifa's still jealous of Aerith. The same quote also says that Tifa views Aerith as a love rival (tense unspecified). Tifa would only be feeling that way if Tifa knew that Cloud still loves Aerith, which is the premise I suggested for the LA version.

Sounds to me like an official source supports my interpretation, therefore it's valid. However, I never said that my interpretation is canon, either.

Love triangle's continuity:

Notice also that Aerith is said to be interested in deepening the Love triangle between herself Tifa and Cloud, she can't deepen anything once she is gone, you cannot continue a relationship when you're deceased.

In the first place, Aerith is able to continue a relationship after she is deceased. AC/ACC showed that Aerith and Cloud are able to talk with one another, see one another, and touch one another. Nomura said this is possible because Aerith lives on inside of Cloud. That means that Aerith is always and will always be with Cloud. So yes, their relationship can continue.

We've seen Yuna continue a relationship with Tidus despite the fact that he's essentially dead, and we've seen Vincent continue a relationship with Lucrecia despite the fact that she's essentially dead. Ifalna continued a relationship with Aerith after Ifalna died. We saw Sephiroth continue a negative relationship with Cloud during FFVII despite the fact that Sephiroth was dead during the entire game. So sorry, but fantasy worlds make it possible for a relationship to continue beyond death.

As for the quote about the deepening love triangle in Aerith's FFVII profile, that paragraph is obviously talking about before Aerith dies, since it talks about how she meets Cloud and how she joins Avalanche. So it's talking about the love triangle deepening while Aerith is alive.

There is no quote that says there's even a possibility of Cloud loving Aerith

But there is:

... she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII Game Manual

Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart (lover, boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream White

Kitase: ... And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion
Screenshot: http://clerith.heliohost.org/ACNet.gif

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. ~Tifa's profile, 10th AU

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

Aerith's picture with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a heading saying that Love Develops Between the Heroes. If it's valid for Cloti, then it's valid for Clerith.

affection values are irrelevant,

In your opinion

don't relate to Clouds feelings, and don't make any sense really;

In your opinion

the only one who has given input on Cloud and Aerith's relationship, is Aerith, and that was a one sided affection.

In your opinion

Cloud and Tifa are said to mutually express their feelings with one another

Optionally.

something that Cloud and Aertih have failed to do.

In your opinion. Apparently, we don't need to rely on official sources to determine what's canon.

(please don't discuss optionality at this point, because I've discussed it further up.)

And we still disagree.

I could go on, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if Cloud's not in love with one of the girls, that he's in love with the other.

Woah woah, no where is that implied and you cannot assume that.

It's implied in the nine quotes I gave above. If Cloud is able to love Aerith, as those quotes imply, and if Cloud and Tifa do not share mutual feelings of love during the LA HW scene, then Cloud doesn't have to love Tifa.

No creator has ever said that and you cannot continue a relationship with someone who is deceased.

Kitase said it right here:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It's also implied by the FTOIL page when it shows Cloud with both Aerith and Tifa while specifying that both are optional.

I already discussed how relationships can continue beyond death in Final Fantasy. In fact, Nomura specifically said that while talking about KH:

Question: Mr. Nomura, what did you most want to portray in [Kingdom Heart's] story?
Nomura: For the story, simply put, "connections"... I wanted to portray the idea that people are not physically connected. Well, I think that is already thoroughly incorporated in the story though. Even apart, things which are connected are still connected. ~Kingdom Hearts 1 Ultimania

And yes, that's about KH, not FFVII - however, Nomura also said that the ending of KH1 may answer questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII:

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140

Another indication that Cloud can love Aerith in FFVII.

And where did I ever say that Tifa was pining after Cloud? I said that Tifa may be hoping that Cloud will grow to love her one day, but does that mean she's pining?

Hoping that someone will love you one day is pining.

Not if the person who's hoping isn't suffering.

It seems that you've forgotten that I was also saying that the LA version would be mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa. If Cloud isn't wanting a relationship with Tifa, then Tifa's not wanting a relationship with Cloud, either. She's wanting him to change before she'll consider a relationship. That would mean she's not wanting to get into his pants at the moment - and therefore, I don't see it as suffering.

She's not suffering because she hopes that Cloud will love her, she's pissed off because Cloud has submerged himself in guilt, and almost died alone without telling her, I'd be pretty pissed If I were Tifa..

And it's not possible for Tifa to be hoping that Cloud will fall for her one day at the same time she's pissed about him being submerged in guilt? I don't see those two feelings as being incompatible.

After all, she's wanting him to change - she's wanting him to stop blaming himself, she's wanting him to stop isolating himself. How do you know she's not wanting him to get over Aerith, too? If Tifa continues to hold complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith two years after Aerith's death, then I see that as indication that Tifa's hoping that Cloud will someday grow to love Tifa as well as Aerith.

I was approaching the whole thing hypothetically as in Tifa actually never does pine and has no need to because she is already with Cloud, she does not need to pine after him if she is with him. She has already communicated her feelings, she is not trying to do so with Cloud because she already has, I mentioned it because pining is a weak characteristic one that you affiliated with Tifa, when saying that she is still pursuing an interest for Cloud.

And yes - that interpretation is valid hypothetically speaking. I think my interpretation is valid hypothetically speaking, too. It would depend on optionality, since one interpretation fits the HA version of the HW scene, and one interpretation fits the LA version of the HW scene.

And didn't SE say it was optional?

However, Tifa's 10th AU profile says that she continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even in AC. To me, that says she's still jealous of Aerith, which could easily imply that Tifa knows that Cloud still loves Aerith.

hmm are we filling in blanks here? Because I don't think we can assume that, they are blanks and the creators haven't told us so they cannot be solved.

Which is exactly why I keep saying it's open to interpretation. The quote in Tifa's profile supports my interpretation, but I'm not saying that interpretation is the only possible interpretation.

That means we cannot know who the woman was in COLW

But that was said - if the woman is an Ancient who is friend and sweetheart to Cloud, then the only Ancient who fits that description in FFVII is Aerith. CoLW also says that the woman is an Ancient who was killed by Sephiroth. So who else could it be but Aerith?

we don't know who Tifa's beloved is

True, since it's unspecified.

and we most certainly don't know what these complicated feelings are that Tifa has towards Aerith.

Well, yes and no. I think it's made pretty clear myself myself, since it says that Aerith is/was (unspecified) a love rival to Tifa, and says that Tifa continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith. But is it definitely stated that Tifa's jealous? No - that's open to interpretation, just like who views Tifa as a sweetheart.

Because Coud was A MESS at the beginning of the game his mind was scattered beyond belief, he was not himself, when Tifa pieces him back together then his feelings truly come to light. The feelings for Tifa were there but it was obscured at the beginning, when he regains himself, the feelings are too regained to their fullest.

And where is that stated? According to you - if it's not stated in an official source, then it's not valid.

I know you think it's stated in that one quote about the Lifestream event (which I can't find right now), but I've already explained how I don't agree that the quote is talking about Cloud's feelings in the current frame of events. It's only talking about Cloud's past feelings for Tifa.

So where has SE clearly stated that Cloud's feelings for Tifa have continued since he was a kid, and that he only forgot about those feelings until the Lifestream event?

Where has SE stated that Cloud was actually in love with Tifa before leaving to join SOLDIER? The CC Ultimania only says that Cloud had a dim crush on Tifa when they were kids. Even IF you think he's actually in love, come on - how can Cloud be in love at the age of 14 with a girl he barely knows?

Simple answer: Cloud can't be in love with Tifa at the age of 14 when they barely know one another. Therefore, even IF he regains the feelings he once had for Tifa at the time of the Lifestream event, it was nothing but a dim crush.

It says right here when Tifa's feelings for Cloud started/developed:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Interest. Does that have to be romantically inclined? It could simply mean that Tifa had taken interest that Cloud was going to do all of this for her, a little girl with huge aspirations.

I would say it means any interest at all, since the FFVII UO also says this:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Since it says Tifa didn't take much notice of Cloud at all, I would say she didn't have any interest of any kind in him before the Promise was made. He left a few weeks after the Promise was made, and there's no indication that he spent any time with Tifa during those few weeks. He and Tifa didn't write to one another or speak to one another for what - 7 years? - while he was a Shinra grunt. Then Cloud spends another 5? years as a lab rat for Hojo.

In reality, Cloud and Tifa were just getting to know one another when FFVII started, so Cloud didn't know Tifa much longer than he'd known Aerith at the time of the HW scene.

"Nothing's changed kinda makes you wanna laugh"

In the first place, that's from the HA HW scene - there's nothing like that in the LA version. Therefore, it's optional.

In the second place, Cloud isn't saying that his feelings for Tifa haven't changed. What hasn't changed is his inability to talk to Tifa easily:

Cloud "Hey, Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about." (He shakes his head slowly.)
Cloud "But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say..." "I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."

And like I said before, if Cloud's feelings for Tifa haven't changed since he was a kid, then all he's feeling for her at the moment is a dim crush.

He joins soldier for Tifa, and in Crisis Core he STILL expresses that interest, there is a scene with Zack that shows his interest is still directed towards impressing Tifa. He is still romantically interested in her during Crisis Core.

Where exactly do you think that's indicated?

You have said before that you cannot speak Japanese, someone is explaining to you how it works, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing if the reasoning is right there for you to see.

So you always agree whenever something is explained to you? Besides, I'm not agreeing with what he said about the English tenses.

If I have to be able to read and understand Japanese before I can understand the LT, then SE hasn't made it clear to the NA audience. If SE hasn't made it clear to the NA audience, then the LT hasn't been solved.

I explained in the post. I said that Cloud wasn't the only boy in Nibelheim with a crush on Tifa. What got Tifa interested in Cloud? It says right here:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

What does that have to do with Cloud and Tifa though, Tifa is more interested in Cloud's little speech anyway, why are the other boys even relevant?

In the first place, the part you quoted was about why Tifa got interested in Cloud - it says nothing about the other boys. Tifa got interested in Cloud only because he said he was going to become a SOLDIER. Tifa thought that meant Cloud would become a hero like Sephiroth. When we first see Tifa in CC, she asks Zack if Zack and Sephiroth are the only 1st class SOLDIERs there - she doesn't ask if Cloud's there. So that's all she's interested in - a first class SOLDIER, a hero. That's what she was looking in the newspapers for, too - not the Cloud she grew up with in Nibelheim.

As for the other boys, I bring them up because it shows how shallow Cloud's interest in Tifa is. Plenty of boys had crushes on her, just like Cloud. Cloud barely knew Tifa. She hung out with other boys in town, not with Cloud. The other boys wouldn't let Cloud into their group. Cloud only used to look up at her window from outside. So just because Cloud had a crush on her means nothing - other boys had crushes on her, too.

For example, the scene where Tifa finds the delivery order from Elmyra to take flowers to Aerith's grave and offers to talk with Cloud about it. He shuns her and says he wants to drink alone. Tifa snaps and says to go drink in his room.

IMO, that's a very good example of where Tifa's may be hoping that someday, Cloud will get interested in her. When she sees him reject her help and interest, then she gets mad and snaps at him.(Now please notice, I said MAY be hoping... I don't know for sure, but it's sure possible.)

Both of these paragraphs talk about it, and how does that example tell of her reaching out to Cloud? How do either of these examples depict this?

No, both of those paragraphs are talking about a particular scene where Tifa tries to offer help to Cloud. It's when she tries to help Cloud that she's reaching out to him.

A quote talking about Tifa being strong is her reaching out to Cloud?

We aren't communicating here. >_< Let me try to rephrase from the beginning:

I brought up the scene where Tifa learns that Elmyra has asked Cloud to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. Tifa walks into a room and sees Cloud drinking. She asks if she can have a drink with him:

It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking wine even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa hesitated before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
"I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room." (CoT)

Notice it says that she wanted to talk with him about something. If she wants to talk with him, it's clear to me that she's wanting to offer her help. If she's wanting to offer her help, then I take it to mean that she's reaching out to him.

Which is why she does not communicate feelings in the La version at all, nothing is communicated.

That's only your interpretation. The FFVII UO says there is a conversation in the LA version:

[FONT=&quot]After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly.~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If there was a conversation, then something was most likely communicated. The same passage says that the conversation was apathetic and ends quickly. "Apathetic" can means A LITTLE emotion, not no emotion. "Ends quickly" means it didn't last long, not that it didn't happen at all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So there's nothing which would indicate that nothing was communicated.[/FONT]

 

[Dashell]

Zealkin, please send this in your next response to her:

Anastar, if you can use a third party commercial made by Sony, can I use the English Crisis Core guidebook? The one that says Tifa reveals her romantic feelings for Cloud at the end of FFVII no ifs ands or buts? And the one with all the Zerith quotes?

Personal data:
Age: 15
Bithplace: Nibelheim

Tifa is a young girl in Nibelheim who is hired as a guide to lead Sephiroth and Zack to the mako excavation facility. She is not a fan of Shinra and, although she admits to desiring a blonde-haired soldier operative for a boyfriend, she does not have a lot of nice things to say about soldier.

Link to FFVII:
Tifa meets Cloud in Nibelheim during the events of CRISIS CORE and their friendship carries over to FINAL FANTASY VII. Tifa has always liked Cloud and enjoys helping him restore his memory when they reunite in FINAL FANTASY VII. She ultimately lets her feelings be known near the end of FINAL FANTASY VII and the two can be seen living together during the evens of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.

What are your thoughts on this? And yes it IS talking about her romantic feelings because it specifically says she likes him and then the next line says she tells him.


EDIT
actually I'll just send it myself, hope it makes its way through

 

[Zealkin]

I was hoping you would post that again, I was looking for it, thanks! I'll be sure to add it in.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Now maybe I'm wrong but I believe Anastar is talking about her interpretation of the events in her posts. Not saying "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!" but saying what she believed is possible from her POV. She believes it's possible that either HW scene could happen, and that we could be right and she could be right. She believes we're arguing interpretations and not actual canon. I guess that also makes either interpretation of the commercial valid...?

IF Anastar were arguing that, IF she was arguing pure optionality and not 'wedge strategy Clerith' She would concede that her favorite screencap in the world does not say what she desperately wants it to say.

But she doesn't. She is adamant about this.

It's one of the few things she's absolutely consistent upon.

Anastar is playing the Postmodernist gambit to hide- poorly- that she DOES think her favored position is so. She just knows full well the opposed position is too concrete.
That's why she attacks it. Why she argues things as being 'merely your opinion' while offering her own opinion as the equivalent of fact.

Anastar's position has never changed. Merely the song and dance she sings to distract you from that position.
Time permitting, I'll try and catalogue some of the humdingers and why they're such in a future post. Not lies she tells to us, so much as lies she tells herself.

Lies she desperately wishes to- and possibly even does- believe in.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I already discussed how relationships can continue beyond death in Final Fantasy. In fact, Nomura specifically said that while talking about KH:

Question: Mr. Nomura, what did you most want to portray in [Kingdom Heart's] story?
Nomura: For the story, simply put, "connections"... I wanted to portray the idea that people are not physically connected. Well, I think that is already thoroughly incorporated in the story though. Even apart, things which are connected are still connected. ~Kingdom Hearts 1 Ultimania

... There are no words.

Zealkin, please send this in your next response to her:

Anastar, if you can use a third party commercial made by Sony, can I use the English Crisis Core guidebook? The one that says Tifa reveals her romantic feelings for Cloud at the end of FFVII no ifs ands or buts? And the one with all the Zerith quotes?

Personal data:
Age: 15
Bithplace: Nibelheim

Tifa is a young girl in Nibelheim who is hired as a guide to lead Sephiroth and Zack to the mako excavation facility. She is not a fan of Shinra and, although she admits to desiring a blonde-haired soldier operative for a boyfriend, she does not have a lot of nice things to say about soldier.

Link to FFVII:
Tifa meets Cloud in Nibelheim during the events of CRISIS CORE and their friendship carries over to FINAL FANTASY VII. Tifa has always liked Cloud and enjoys helping him restore his memory when they reunite in FINAL FANTASY VII. She ultimately lets her feelings be known near the end of FINAL FANTASY VII and the two can be seen living together during the evens of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
​

I had never even heard of this until you brought it up the other day. That's pretty fucking ironic.

Anybody have a scan of that page?
​

 

[Theozilla]

Zealkin, please send this in your next response to her:

Anastar, if you can use a third party commercial made by Sony, can I use the English Crisis Core guidebook? The one that says Tifa reveals her romantic feelings for Cloud at the end of FFVII no ifs ands or buts? And the one with all the Zerith quotes?



What are your thoughts on this? And yes it IS talking about her romantic feelings because it specifically says she likes him and then the next line says she tells him.


EDIT
actually I'll just send it myself, hope it makes its way through

Out of curiosity, was the English Crisis Core guidebook not produced/made/written by SquareEnix?

 

[Dashell]

It was made by Brady Games, thus not considered official, but it has Square's logo on it. As far as I'm concerned it's in the same boat as the commercial.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seconded. If someone's going to claim that the commercial Sony made should be counted, they're either going to have to accept this strategy guide that says the higher affection Highwind scene happened -- or they'll be employing a double-standard.

Still want to see the page with my own eyes, though. =(

 

[Danseru-kun]

Where are the answers to my questions? Well I'm sure they can wait.

As for the "love rival" argument. A woman's jealousy over a love rival is not a proof of love existing between the other woman and her man.

It's pretty common that the girlfriends of guys get jealous over their girl best friends. I personally experienced that. My friend hated me because I was close to his BF, despite the fact that our relationship was based around Yugioh cards, anime and Dota.

You can be jealous both rationally and unreasonably,and you can come into conclusions even without proof.

Forgive me if I will sound harsh here, but to me, Anastar's interpretation of characters is this:

Cloud is a very sad person who never got close enough to the family his living with for two years and feels alone. He wants Aerith so badly that he left home to be near to her when he's dying(which is odd because they will reunite eventually in the next life) and has nothing to do with the hopelessness of finding a cure for Denzel, a boy he saved. All that he has done, like living with his family and being with Tifa is all he idea to get his heart but it's not enough.

On the other hand, Tifa keeps on waiting to be loved by Cloud even though she knew that Cloud is totally in love with Aerith. Tifa, a strong and independent woman, keeps on hoping that Cloud will love her.


Zealkin, please also ask her this question:

If you argue that Aerith can move on from Zack and loved Cloud, who don't you consider Cloud moving on from Aerith and loving Tifa?

 

[Elisa Maza]

You aren't sounding harsh. That's exactly how it is.

Seriously, this view makes Cloud a horrible person, Tifa a doormat and Aerith without an ounce of conscience.

 

[Dashell]

If you argue that Aerith can move on from Zack and loved Cloud, who don't you consider Cloud moving on from Aerith and loving Tifa?

Because Cloud never loved Aerith

Oh yeah I went there

But really, have we established Cloud loves Aerith yet?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Alright, so I just got the CC strategy guide through entirely legitimate means (). Here's the profile in question for anyone who wants to see it (from pg. 11):

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/271/tifaccprofile.jpg

 

[Dashell]

And yes we know, the book specifically says, "We at BradyGames have worked tirelessly to ensure this is the most comprehensive guidebook imaginable because, like you, we're fans, too!"

Which means some people think the book can't be accurate if it's just written by fans but...

1. The people who make the Ultimanias are ALSO fans. Nojima and Nomura are fans in a sense. Just because someone is a fan doesn't automatically make the book unofficial. And Im sure the people at Sony are fans too.

2. The whole point is that if third party content isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed. You shouldn't just use the one that supports your pairing. Either it's all in or it's all out.


So maybe we should pick a stance we all agree on. I say it's all out. Anyone else?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Added to what Que said, SE wouldn't have let BradyGames put the title "official strategy guide" in that book and make money off of it without their say-so any more than they'd have let Sony make commercials and publish the game to make money without their say-so.