Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Are you sure she isn't Tana?
Good Mako isn't here or I don't know what he'd have done to her. Or is he?
Good Mako isn't here or I don't know what he'd have done to her. Or is he?
You're too nice, Tres. I would've just given her an immediate infraction for trolling. I don't care how long it's been since she last posted. She's been warned for this shit several times before.
Nope.You have to admit it was pretty funny right
Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.
You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)
Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.
You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)
Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.
You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)
No one's going to believe that, sry.Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.
You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)
Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.
You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)
(Sorry I missed this, Tres)
I'm sorry about the date. I didn't know.
He says right there that Aerith's comrades have their own feelings and love for her. Cloud is also a comrade, so he must also have his own feelings and love for her as well that's separate from his guilt.
Either Nomura had a brain fart in the same breath or maybe he really didn't mean to imply guilt?
The tricky part, for me at least, is they've never talked about this. The story itself glosses over it, but like I said, if the feelings were canonically romantic, I should think it would have been brought up - especially in CoT, because that novella is about her relationship with him. To actually address these feelings with him in a scene like that and never mention it again is a little strange - it would be a big leap for both of their characters, but it's ignored by them themselves. I do think, in that respect, SE has stayed with a neutral presentation.
"It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."
This is from the morning after the LA version. (Here)
*GLD and Ryu, I'll respond to you guys soon, I just need more time, sorry.
Zealkin
From now on, I think I'm just going to answer people who don't need to fling accusations at me and who actually debate - like Zealkin. Sorry I didn't answer you before this, Zealkin:
Where is there a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally? Where is there a quote saying that the HA version of the HW scene is canon?
What SE tells us about the LA HW scene is that you get the LA version version if Tifa's affection rating for Cloud is low. In order for Tifa's affection rating for Cloud to be low, then Cloud has to act in ways that give negative values to Tifa's affection rating. If Cloud is acting in that way, then his affection for Tifa is low. That means their affection values match in the LA scene.
Now, what SE says about the LA HW scene is that it's apathetic and ends short.
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
Now, I was asked to give a reason that the scene is apathetic and ends short. I said it could easily be that Cloud's still in love with Aerith, and therefore not in love with Tifa. Tifa may not be interested in a relationship with Cloud because she knows he's still in love with Aerith.
Same with the HA version. There is no conversation about the two of them being in love during the HA HW scene. We see no confirmation about Cloud and Tifa loving one another in the HA HW scene. It was purely up to speculation until the FTOIL page put a pic of the HW scene under a title talking about Love Between Heroes. And even then, the FTOIL page specified that the scene is optional and that there are two versions by providing a link to a page where that's discussed in detail.
Koibito can mean "beloved", which means it can be one-way. In that case, it was confirmed in Case of Denzel that Johnny is in love with Tifa:
Johnny ran a cafe in the main street. It was a humble establishment in a patch of open ground with a stall, some tables and a few chairs where he could do some simple cooking. The name of the shop was called Johnny's Heaven. It was a name that was similar to the diner that once existed in the slums of the Seventh Sector. That diner's name was "Seventh Heaven" which had a hostess that Johnny fell in love with. That girl's name was Tifa. ~Case of Denzel
Now, if you look at the pages in the Reunion Files where it's supposedly talking about Cloud being in love with Tifa, there's absolutely nothing talking about romance between the two of them. On page 18, it says that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud:
Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a big kid himself in some respects. ~Reunion Files, page 18
That says nothing about romance - it's talking about a maternal bond between Cloud and Tifa. On page 19, it says that she's a mother, sweetheart, and close ally in battle. Well, on the facing page, it said that Tifa feels a maternal bond to Cloud, so that accounts for Tifa being a mother - but where's there reference to Cloud being a sweetheart? There's not even a picture of Cloud on either of those pages.
Page 19 goes on to say:
Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point ~page 19, the Reunion Files
Which isn't even true - they barely knew one another as kids in Nibelheim, which Tifa says during the Lifestream event.
They were with one another during FFVII, but that only lasted a few months. She was with Cloud, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII while they were homeless and while they were building the new Seventh Heaven. Then they moved into the new Seventh Heaven, and Cloud leaves shortly afterwards. As I've had others say to me about the FFVII commercial - if one part isn't accurate, then why should we believe anything else?
Then page 19 goes on to say:
... but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. ~page 19, the Reunion Files
See anything confirming romance? I don't.
Later on page 20:
Tifa's a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~page 20, Reunion Files
Again, no indication of romance. So just what is koibito on page 19 referring to?
Page 21 talks about how Tifa has a huge burden herself, and says that the film doesn't give a clear look at what's going on inside of Tifa's head. It says there's one scene where she tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. Later, she feels guilty about it, but that was taken out of the final cut. Nothing to indicate that Cloud's her koibito.
Page 21 then goes on to talk about Tifa's 3D model for the film and selecting Ms. Ito as her voice actor. Nothing about romance.
So just what confirms that Cloud is Tifa's koibito?
You don't need a romantic relationship to have relationship problems. You can have relationship problems getting along with a roommate, for example - whether or not you're romantically involved with that roommate. Tres and I have trouble getting along, and we're not romantically involved. Do we have a relationship? We used to be friends (or so I thought) while he was at the CxA forums and the Northern Crater, so yes - I thought we did.
To me, it came across as Tifa trying to help Cloud by offering to talk with him. When he says no, she loses her temper.
That quote isn't shown in association with that scene from the novella, though. I find it here: http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/tifa.php
There's a different scene pictured with it.
Again, I don't see how that quote is associated with Cloud drinking himself to oblivion in CoT. It's talking about how the new Seventh Heaven was built in order to overcome her sorrow and guilt. Where's it say anything about Tifa offering to help Cloud while he's drinking in CoT?
Show me a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, not just a quote saying that their feelings match. I've never heard of that, either.
However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?
Also, her profile in the 10th AU says:
Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
If Tifa has complex feelings as woman toward Aerith, I haven't seen Tifa express that to Cloud - have you? To me, that means Tifa's keeping it to herself.
Completely disinterested? You mean disinterested in a friendship with him, too? I see no indication of that.
In your interpretation of the narrative, maybe.
But I gave two quotes above where SE says that she's keeping things from Cloud. Her profile says that Tifa still has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even two years later in AC. Where did Tifa ever say that to Cloud?
Well, Tifa's profile says that Tifa still has complicated feelings toward Aerith two years later in AC. Sounds just like that situation to me.
And nowhere does it say that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, nor does it say anywhere that the HA HW scene is canon. For that matter, I've never seen a quote where it says that Cloud loves Tifa. I've only seen quotes saying that their feelings match.
]Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
If there's two versions, and one version is High Affection and one version is Low Affection, it's obvious that the two versions are opposite of one another. If the High Affection is supposed to show that Cloud and Tifa love one another and/or want a romantic relationship with one another, then the Low Affection version does not.
Can Cloud love Aerith? For one thing, it's a love triangle. Aerith's FFVII profile says that the Love Triangle is between herself, Cloud and Tifa.
Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Aerith and Tifa are/were "love rivals".
Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Tifa's complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith continue in AC.
Aerith's picture is shown with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a title about "Love Between Heroes".
The FFVII commercial shows this:
Kitase said in one statement that Cloud wavers between the two girls in FFVII:
Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. [/I]And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
I could go on, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if Cloud's not in love with one of the girls, that he's in love with the other.
And where did I ever say that Tifa was pining after Cloud? I said that Tifa may be hoping that Cloud will grow to love her one day, but does that mean she's pining?
I just looked through my other responses to you, and I see nothing about Tifa pining. I won't bother going through the rest of my responses to other people, but I sure don't remember saying anything about Tifa pining. Pining infers suffering, and I see no indication that Tifa's suffering.
However, Tifa's 10th AU profile says that she continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even in AC. To me, that says she's still jealous of Aerith, which could easily imply that Tifa knows that Cloud still loves Aerith.
Okay, I've spoken about how Cloud's affection rating would match Tifa's affection rating to other people. But if you want to insist that it's only Tifa's affection rating that the Date Mech affects, why do Cloud's feelings match Tifa's if you get the High Affection version? Cloud's feelings don't match Tifa's in the beginning of the game,
so how do Cloud's feelings grow to match Tifa's in the HA version if Cloud's feelings aren't also affected by the Date Mech? Why did Kitase say that Cloud can waver between the two females in FFVII if his feelings for Tifa are constant throughout the game?
And one of the definitions says that "apathetic" means indifferent or unresponsive, which could easily indicate that both of them are indifferent to having a romantic relationship with the other.
I believe I explained that above.
It says right here when Tifa's feelings for Cloud started/developed:
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Where does it say Cloud's feelings for Tifa continued? SE says that Cloud had a crush on her when he was a kid, and SE says that Cloud's feelings for Tifa can optionally match in the HA HW scene, but where does it say that Cloud continued to feel the same way for Tifa for the years he was in SOLDIER and during the time he spent in Hojo's lab?
And I don't agree. I think it's referring to Cloud's feelings as a kid.
I explained in the post. I said that Cloud wasn't the only boy in Nibelheim with a crush on Tifa. What got Tifa interested in Cloud? It says right here:
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
No, both of those paragraphs are talking about a particular scene where Tifa tries to offer help to Cloud. It's when she tries to help Cloud that she's reaching out to him.
And she doesn't in the LA version because she's not interested, otherwise known as indifferent.
Was it? That's not what Kitase said about it:
Kitase-san is adamant that cultural art puts too high a value on the dramatically meaningful death, "In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood." ~Edge, May 2003, interview with Kitase and Nomura
And that's your perception of it, not mine.
If that's the way you want to see it, fine. That's not the way I see it.
Page 19 of the Reunion Files says otherwise:
Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of her heart, and this makes her uneasy. Nonetheless, she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. (Nojima)
And so does Tifa's 10th AU profile:
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
そして、ここからクラウドはティファとも向き合い、自身が見て見ぬフリをしていた
感情に素直になっていくのだと思います。
攻略本やらで、ティファはクラウドの恋人であり母であり戦友とありますが
二人が結ばれるのは、たぶんACからDCの間かなと勝手に想像。
どちらも相手が幸せならそれでいいと思い込んでそうなので
今一歩近づくのに時間がかかりそう。だがそこがクラティの醍醐味。
野村氏の発言「ティファは母であり恋人であり~うんぬん」が、クラウド&ティファのカップル好きに火をつけたって感じです。
And even this is a red herring since Nojima mentioned love, family, and marriage, so those ARE involved.
Of course, something tells me you don't think he was referring to 'maybe with Aerith' as a roommate, and that you'd find such a suggestion insulting.
Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.There are plenty:Zealkin said:Where is there a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally? Where is there a quote saying that the HA version of the HW scene is canon?
"She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC".
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
Ditto what I said above.Zealkin said:the quotes I've provided do not talk about Optionality, and talk about the scene as if it has happened, I'd say that's pretty canon.
No, the creators haven't specified which outcome fills in said blank. Friendship could fill the blank just as easily as love.Zealkin said:The scene had to have had an outcome, it isn't just left blank, so narritively the creators have told us time and time again which scene fills in said blank. It's not the LA scene.
That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.Zealkin said:"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.Zealkin said:What many have tried to express regarding affection values, is that they actually make no sense. So when Cloud accidentally drops barrels on Aerith he hates her? wut?
I did that a couple of times on my first play through by accident, and I certainly did not want Cloud to hate Aerith.
You've never hesitated to do something that you looked forward to? I remember being pretty shy about going out on my first date, too.Zealkin said:Also is his affection low when for all four of his dates, since all four dates FORCE him out of his room?
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.Zealkin said:And I've asked that you give me evidence that indicates that Clouds thought process went this way. Reason has fact behind it, you have to give me a quote that supports this otherwise it is not true.
Yes, but I say it's optional. You say it's canon.Zealkin said:You have said yourself that the HA scene was romantic:
The quotes you gave me above don't specify whether Cloud feels love or friendship toward Tifa, so the HA version didn't definitely happen.Even if it optional one of them had to happen. Please prove to me that the LA scene happened, because Cloud love Aerith.
The Ha sceen happened because There are several quotes referencing it, and none of them talk about optionality,
No, you said that no feelings are expressed. I said it's apathetic and ends short. "Apathetic" can mean that no feelings are expressed, but that's not the only meaning - as I've said before. It can also mean that FEW feelings are expressed, or it can also mean that indifference is expressed.Zealkin said:it IS the HA scene the quotes are talkin about because no feelings were communicated in the LA scene, as you have repeated yourself it ends short, no feelings are expressed.
Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?Zealkin said:Not only that but how would Cloud have Tifa in a different way, if he was already her friend?
Well, in the first place, they didn't start a family together. It was Barret who brought up the idea, and Marlene asked Cloud to join the family. The way Marlene says it, it sounds like there's a family already existing before Marlene asks Cloud to join.Zealkin said:Why would they start a family together,
Where does it say that their friends see them as an item?Zealkin said:why would they be talked about by their friends as an item
Why does Cloud need to be a boyfriend in order to leave her behind? He's a man. He can leave a friend behind as easily as he can leave a girlfriend behind.Zealkin said:why would Tifa need to be left behind by a man?
And the LA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the Compilation, too. Therefore, it is your interpretation.Zealkin said:She would have to BE with one in the first place. The HA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the compilation. Because of these reasons, not my interpretation.
Why don't the quotes you gave me above say that Cloud loves Tifa instead of saying that he has feelings for her? Why doesn't it explain that the feelings are love if it's supposedly true?Zealkin said:I see nothing talking about Aerith or Clouds behind the scene love when it talks about the LA scene. It says it ends short WHERE does it talk about Aerith? This is the page that has teh deviatios explained right? Why isn't this explained if it's supposedly true then?
Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about when you say, "it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference." There's nothing about "difference feelings" or "indifference" in the Deviation descriptions.Zealkin said:The main one being that the scenes ends short, it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference. That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship, that's leaving things as they are. Without progression romantically. It ends nothing is communicated.Chantara said:And one of the definitions says that "apathetic" means indifferent or unresponsive, which could easily indicate that both of them are indifferent to having a romantic relationship with the other. The feelings that match quotes do not relate to the LA scene for a number of reasons.
And do you agree with everything that I explain to you?Zealkin said:It has been explained to you that the one sideded feelings do not apply to Tifa for a number of reasons.
Koibito can mean "beloved", or it can mean "sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend". "Beloved" can mean one-sided, or it can mean two-sided romance. There is nothing to specify that "koibito" means one-sided or two-sided in that sentence.Zealkin said:You have said you are no expert at the Japanese language, someone tried to explain the mechanics of it to you before in a post, on why each koibito was different. So please if you are so set on this conviction of Tifa's koibito having a one sided meaning please explain it to me using your knowledge of the language. I am no native speaker so I rely on others to translate for me, someone has already explained to me why this does not match up with your interpretation, please explain to me why it does.
In the first place, Aerith was never said to have a maternal bond to Cloud. Tifa was.Zealkin said:Let's look at the full quote:
Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense.Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a big kid himself in some respects.
BOTH Tifa and Aerith have a maternal side to them, and why is this a problem? This is definitely not the only feelings Tifa has for Cloud.
Shera was with Cid when Avalanche first got to Rocket Town in FFVII. Shera was living with Cid. They were not romantically involved at that time. Cid left with Avalanche, so Shera got left behind by a man that she wasn't romantically involved with."Although there's a lot to Tifa's character she's like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times.(Reunion Files)
Not only do you have to you know be WITH a man before getting left behind by one, Tifa is also said here to have communicated her feelings many times to Cloud already, which nullifies what you have continued to say about her wanting to love Cloud but holding back, she has communicated her feelings to him already.
I brought that up because that would be a way to know that the bit about "sweetheart" is referring to Cloud.Zealkin said:Where is the reference to her kicking the crap out of Loz or fighting Bahumet Sin? Why does it matter what pictures they chose really?
It's not accurate because Tifa barely knew Cloud during their childhood. She said so to Cloud during the Lifestream event. Also, the FFVII UO says that Tifa didn't take notice of Cloud before the Promise was made, and he left to join SOLDIER shortly after the Promise was made:Zealkin said:How is this not accurate? She was with Cloud does not translate they were best buds at every juncture of their lives. She was with cloud during her childhood,(and she is stated to be childhood friends with Cloud) She was with Cloud throughout the game, and nurses him, she was with Cloud for two years creating a business and raising a family. How is that not correct? She has had lived most of her life with and around Cloud, and will continue to do so.
Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.
I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie
Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.
Anastar said:Under the Clerith date on the FTOIL page, it says that "who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior". Therefore, it's the way Cloud behaves that changes the women's affection levels.
Anastar said:Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.
Anastar said:Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?
Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.
...
I never said they had a conversation about it.
So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."
It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player.
Anastar said:As for "That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship" - you're making an assumption when you say they don't communicate anything during the LA version. The description of "apathetic" can mean that they are indifferent to each other romantically. If they're indifferent romantically, then they're not interested in a romantic relationship with one another. I don't know if you've ever been very good friends with a man and you want to keep it that way instead of getting involved romantically, but it's happened to me. Sometimes things just need to be clarified, and usually the conversation is brief.
Well I want to know the WHY. WHY does Cloud's affection for her lower if he accidentally pushes a wrong barrel? I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie
That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.
Give me a quote saying this, or your idea is unsupported.
Well I want to know the WHY. WHY does Cloud's affection for her lower if he accidentally pushes a wrong barrel? I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie
"Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."
Highwind Scene
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.
The reason, I shall tell you it.
It's obviously because when Cloud pushed the wrong barrel accidentally, and Aerith is forced to fight the guards, Cloud sees her fighting pathetically and starts thinking "Gross, this woman is pretty weak, I don't think I like her very much". The more barrels he pushes wrong accidentally, the more he sees Aerith fighting, the more he gets turned off. Hence why HIS affection for Aerith drops just as hers drops as well.