Zealkin
Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
Except that's not what you do. You don't say 'this can be interpreted as' you say 'this is,' like when you asserted that the complex feelings were jealousy, and that Tifa would ONLY be Jealous IF Cloud loved Aerith.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
The contents of your essays and arguments show a distinctly different picture.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong.
You argue against it constantly.
I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation,
This is the same point repeated twice. But it also bears repeating that by the same logic you apply to show that C/A is possible, C/B and C/Y are also possible. You special plead against them, but you argue that you get to choose between T and A via the affection points, and the affection points affect them too.
that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.
Here's a glorious meat and potatos quote I can dig my teeth into.
And I do that by saying you are wrong.
They are not on the same scale.
Remotely.
Even if we granted your argument that C/T's mutual confirmation of romantic feelings is optional, it is still explicitly stated as a possibility.
No such explicit statement exists for C/A.
Official statements say that Cloud and Tifa belong together. Official statements say that Aerith lives inside the lifestream flowing around the planet, and that she leaves to return here once the movie ends.
Purely from a standpoint of parsimony, a claim which can point to hard evidence is favored over one which must make numerous assumptions. And that is what your many interpretations are- assumptions.
We don't know that feelings aren't communicated in the LA version, or that feelings are only communicated in the HA version. That's purely your assumption.
And it is purely your assumption that there ARE feelings communicated in the low version, and the evidence on the matter says the conversation contained therein lacked feelings.
The phrase saying that the LA version is apathetic and ends short does not mean that feelings aren't communicated. I said this to Lancelot the other day, but I'll repeat it here:
Anastar, I don't know what your formal training is, but I'm throwing my Lit degree down and pulling rank here and saying that an apathetic conversation won't communicate anything.
- No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions. The word "apathetic" does not mean that nothing is communicated. Cloud can communicate indifference by simply saying, "Just to be clear, I don't want to be anything more than friends, Tifa".
But, as we keep TELLING YOU, it is not the participants who are apathetic/ indifferent. It is the conversation itself which lacks feelings, it is the conversation that is indifferent.
That statement is both apathetic (or candid) and short. It'sapathetic because it shows his indifference to getting involved romantically. It's candid because it's honest. It also discloses his feelings. If Tifa said back,
"I feel the same way, Cloud", then she's expressing mutual feelings with Cloud. It's apathetic because it shows her indifference to a relationship, it's candid, it discloses her feelings of indifference, and it's short. ~Chantara,
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=383710&postcount=2303
So feelings can still be communicated in an apathetic scene that ends quickly.
Just, stop. You are abusing the English language for your own ends. This is semantic fuckery I shall not let stand.
Furthermore, it's actually stated on the Deviations page that there is communication in the LA version:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle[/FONT]
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation in both versions.
For the record, everyone playing along at home- note the equivocation between 'feelings communicated' and 'there is a conversation' that Anastar just pulled. The contents of the conversation in the low version do not mention any sort of communication of feeling.
Just a note: I don't remember seeing this from you before. But anyway, I see the FTOIL page as showing optionality for several reasons.
1. Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa under the heading of Love Between Heroes. No other main protagonist has two different pictures with two different women on that page.
No other hero has an event where four different people confess to him. That's what the entry about the date talks about- Four different people. Not Aerith. Four different people.
2. Both the pictured scene of Cloud with Aerith and the pictured scene of Cloud with Tifa are labeled as optional with deviations.
They are labeled that way by a page number being listed for further reference above each picture:
3. These are the ONLY two pictures on the page that are labeled as having deviations/optional versions. All of the other pictures on the page show non-optional scenes.[/quote]
Only one of those pictures mentions multiple versions on the same page. The other requires you to look into the sidebar of the referenced page, and even then it says nothing that contradicts the information given on the FTOIL page.
Communication of romantic feelings without words is stated, point blank, matter of fact, version agnostic, to have happened. Both on 298 and 232. Hemming and Hawwing won't change that.
4. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with the title "Love Between Heroes".
5. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.
This is trying to cast a single point as two.
But there's a very good reason for the picture to be on the page. Because Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret, the four people mentioned, all confess themselves to Cloud. And that's a reason to have the picture there, because Aerith is one of the four.
You keep focusing on the picture. You keep glossing over the text, which focuses on 'there are four choices here'
The Highwind scene picture? the text there focuses on mutual confirmation of romantic feelings without words.
The only explanation for Cloud to be pictured on the FTOIL page with two different females, both in optional scenes, is that SE considers both women to be possible love interests for Cloud on an optional basis.
This, here, this is a perfect example. You say, above, you merely express interpretations, but here you are saying you have the only explanation. This false monotomy is blatantly untrue. Aerith can be on the page simple as one of the four people who confesses to Cloud, even though he's oblivious.
Quick hypothetical, had Yuffie been there, would your argument change? I know mine doesn't. Hell, Tifa being there wouldn't change my argument much, though I'd think it was redundant to show her again.
The page numbers are there to provide further information about each picture, are they not? If the page number is listed on the FTOIL page, then the information on those pages is considered relevant to the topic of "Love Between Heroes".
Then Barret and Yuffie are relevant to love between heroes. QED. They're involved. I'll change the topic to the love Pyramid post haste.
In the first place, I don't consider that to be complicated. In the second place, no other Final Fantasy has optional love interests for the main protagonist. In the third place, how else would SE show that Cloud has optional love interests than to picture him with both women and note that the scenes are optional?
You keep repeating that they 'note it is optional' but neglect to mention that even in 'noting the optionality' what you claim is optional is never said to be.
IF SE wanted to make either Cloti or Clerith canon, then why picture Cloud with the other woman, too?
Because she's one of four people he is confessed to by, and the page would be cluttered if they used all four? And reusing Tifa would be redundant.
Besides, the Cloti's in this debate have been saying that you can tell the HA HW scene is canon because it's used in story summaries. That's a WAY more complicated way to show something's canon than showing Cloud with two women in optional scenes to mean that his love interest is optional.
No, it's "Here's a summary of the shit that happened in the story." "Oh, that means this happened, then."
That's far less complicated.
I see nothing unprofessional or complicated about saying that Cloud has optional love interests.
It's the way you propose that they have said it which is complicated, Annie.
The point is that IF SE was trying to say that Cloti is canon, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for SE to put the Clerith date scene on the page, too.
And if they were saying Aerith was a legitimate optional love interest with that one entry, they would have actually talked about her date, and not the fact that there are four of them.
That'd be like putting the FFX snowmobile ride of Tidus with Rikku/Lulu on the page alongside the pic of Tidus kissing Yuna in the Macalania spring. Why is Cloud the ONLY main protagonist shown with two women? Because the pairings are optional.
Neither of those scenes fit because they've got nothing to do with romantic displays of affection.
Good question, but they obviously didn't want to do it that way or they would have.
Ergo, it's not about optional love. Glad we cleared that up.
Point is, why the hell is the Clerith date scene even on the page under "Love Between Heroes" IF Cloti is canon? The Clerith date scene has absolutely no relevance IF Cloti is canon. Why not just put the HW scene picture ONLY without specifying that there are two optional versions IF Cloti is canon?
Where on this page does it specify there are two versions?
Far more importantly, where in the name of fuck does is say that the mutual confirmation of romantic feelings is optional? I mean, fuck, you're demanding explicit statements of the most inane things, I might as well demand explicit statements of relevant ones.
Then why is the Clerith date picture on the page, too? IF SE wanted to make it clear that Cloti is canon, then it would have been made clear if SE had put ONLY the HW scene picture on the page without labeling the scene as optional. But they chose not to do that - why?
Because they wanted to talk about the FOUR DATES Cloud can be confessed to in.
And you really need to stop calling it the 'Clerith date.' It's quite presumptuous.
Instead, SE made the decision to put both girls on the page with Cloud and label both scenes as optional. It's the only pairing on the page where that is done. Why?
Because they didn't. The labeled one as having four variations, and one the labeled as containing a mutual confirmation of romantic feelings. A phrase which is repeated in the actual story summary section of p232. So, even including the deviation, they are not saying this is optional. They're declaring an outcome to the deviation.
Just like Shadow's death.
Because they're not talking about feelings of friendship. They're talking about feelings of love being possible with two different women in FFVII.
And Barret, and Yuffie. FOUR DATES, Anastar.
I've already explained how feelings can be communicated in the LA version.
No, you've bastardized a quote to insist that 'feelings of disinterest' could maybe possibly be what was there that evening.
Nowhere did I say that was definite, but I've already explained numerous times how it's possible.
...
...
You've got to either be lying, incapable of memory, or just plain suck at english, at this point.
And if you suck this much at English, why in the hell should we take your analysis of a text seriously?
-Nonsense BS paragraph that really only exists to inflate the post and make a jab at the C/T is canon school-
So why does he NOT love Tifa in the LA version? SE hasn't said why, just like SE hasn't said why Cloud loves Tifa or even IF Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. I've given you possible reasons. I've already explained those possible reasons.
You assume Cloud does not love Tifa in the LA version. Unless you want to recognize there are many other reasons for the LA version, this is another example of asserting only your interpretation as true.
See above. I'm answering your question with another question because I can't answer your question for the same reason you can't answer my question.
Equivocation. You said the LA version is because Cloud loves Aerith. Prove it. Cite a source. Do it.
I already explained that. It's possible to hurt people you love by accident.
But according to you, CLOUD PUSHES THOSE BARRELS BECAUSE HE LIKES AERITH LESS. You posit a direct correlation between the AV values, Each person's affection for Cloud, and his affection back.
Once again, Anastar, you are INCONSISTENT.
Easy. Because asking Tifa to take care of Aerith means that he likes Aerith. That lowers Tifa's affection score because it makes Tifa jealous.
But asking Tifa if Aerith is alright ALSO means he likes Aerith, and that makes Tifa like Cloud more. And asking Barret to take care of Aerith IN THE SAME SCENARIO as asking Tifa to take care of him would mean he likes Aerith, but Tifa does not get jealous or like Cloud less.
Hell, Barret likes him MORE.
That's only your assumption. There's no proof that those quotes relate to the HA version only. The phrase describing the LA version as "apathetic" (or "candid") and "ends quickly" does not mean that feelings weren't exchanged. I showed that in my example to Lancelot.
You showed Bupkiss to Hito. The conversation ITSELF is apathetic and short. It does not contain the feelings, because it is DESCRIBED as not containing feelings.
Furthermore, it's stated on the Deviations page that both versions contain conversation. If there's conversation in both versions, then there's communication in both versions:
-snip quote again-
It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation and communication in both versions.
Once again, this is a bullshit equivocation from 'conversation = communication' which isn't always true, to 'conversation = communication of feelings.' You're making big leaps here, Anastar. And you cannot clear that distance.
In the first place, we know they're feelings of love for Celes/Locke, Cecil/Rosa. and Ingus/Sara because their feelings of love for one another are well established in the game itself on a non-optional basis. However, It's never established for Cloud and Tifa in FFVII on a non-optional basis.
Lifestream says hi.
The only way we know the "mutual feelings" described in the paragraph about the HW scene on the FTOIL are feelings of love because of the title and caption on the page itself - nothing else indicates that it's love. In fact, the word "love" isn't even used in the description. SE says they share "deep feelings", not WHAT feelings. So the ONLY way we know it's love is because of the title saying "Love Between Heroes". Current love between Cloud and Tifa was NEVER confirmed in the game itself or anywhere in the Compilation on a non-optional basis.
And this is why you need to 'upgrade your internet connection' and read the thread. Because we've already covered the word usage in the sources. Many a time.
So the only way we know the feelings talked about on the FTOIL page is because of the title of the page, "Love Between Heroes".
Uh, the title of the page is 'For the one I love,' not 'Love between heroes.'
Well, the same title about love is over the picture of Cloud and Aerith, too. If the only way we know that the HW scene pic is about love, then it means we know that the Clerith date scene pic is about love, too.
Yes, Aerith's love for Cloud. Adoi. Boy's fucking oblivious to it, though.
Celes and Locke's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Locke with another woman on that page. Cecil and Rosa's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Cecil with another woman on that page. Ingus and Sara's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Ingus with another woman on that page.
In fact, the only image on the page labeled as 'optional' is the one with the date itself, which says 'depending on how Cloud acts, the person who calls him out etc.'
The very fact that there is a second picture of Cloud with another woman and that both pictures of Cloud are labeled as optional means that things are different for FFVII than in the other FF games.
Again, no. Shadow and Tidus's coming back to life. Special plead that neither of those are love triangles all you like, it merely makes you look foolish.
"Apathetic" and "ends short" don't mean that Cloud and Tifa didn't communicate anything.
[inigo montoya]You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean [/inigo montoya]
That's only your assumption.
Anastar, ALL YOU HAVE is assumption. And the only mention of the LA scene says its conversation lacks feelings. So no, it's not her assumption.
Ergo, one did happen. Ergo, there's a canon outcome.
Congratulations for once again proving your 'it's all optional' nonsense is precisely that.
The meaning of "apathetic" does not say anything about communication. One can be apathetic and still communicate.
But NOT communicate feelings.
As clarification. That's necessary at times when you're good friends with a member of the opposite sex.
Well, fuck, there's a protocol I've never followed in my entire fucking life. I had better go make sure to confirm and clarify my just friendship with all those women, then.
I see no basis for either assertion. I've already shown that feelings can be expressed when the conversation is apathetic (or candid) and ends short. I'll repeat it here:
-snip quote-
The conversation is apathetic. Meaning IT is what lacks feelings, it is what is indifferent.
And Anastar, pick a fucking meaning for that word and stick with it. Seeing you equivocate between directly opposed meanings it just getting silly.
That has as much basis for happening as the HA version if a player has been picking choices throughout the game that raise Aerith's affection level instead of Tifa's.
Except the HAHW scene has jack shit to do with Aerith's AV. Aerith's AV can be at minimum and Tifa's can be at 49 and the LA scene still happens. Aerith's can be at 90 and Tifa's at 50 and the HA scene still happens. Barret can be at 150 AV (yes, entirely possible in game) and Tifa at 49 and the LA scene happens.
In point of Fact, Anastar, what you're proposing is NOT that treating Aerith right means Cloud loves her, but that he doesn't love Tifa. Except you can get Aerith's date AND the HAHW scene. Does Cloud love them both? If Cloud gets Barret and the LA version, does he love neither? You refuse to consider Barret as an interest despite being able to favor him over both.
And why does the darkness have to convey something other than sleeping if they have no interest in a relationship with each other?
It doesn't have to. And Zealkin's point here is that in the LA version, it simply DOESN'T. It implies nothing of what you say must happen for your interpretation to be so.
It's just as possible for Cloud and Tifa to not have interest in a relationship with each other as it is for them to have interest in a relationship with each other. There's nothing confirmed either way in the game or the rest of the Compilation on a non-optional basis.
A complete non-sequitor to the point. Read for comprehension, woman.
Yet, their relationships are confirmed on a non-optional basis in game.
And so is Cloud and Tifa's.
Then show me the quote, because I don't see any such thing said in CoT.
"“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile."
Seriously, READ THAT SHIT.
Please show me the quote where Cloud "excludes Barret from the family". I didn't see any such thing.
YOU'VE QUOTED IT, YOU NINNY. It's the AC playback you're so enamoured of.
You do have Shipping goggles on, don't you.
Please show me the quote.
""Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"
"Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."
"Cloud? Run a business?"
"You can bet it's Tifa kickin' his ass into shape."
"I see. In the end, it's the women [who] wear the pants.""
READ THAT SHIT.
Yes, I've heard the colloquialism, but I've never heard that it can ONLY refer to a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.
Have you ever heard it used to refer to a totally platonic relationship? Not 'Julie was left behind by Billy' but 'Julie was left behind by a man?'
I never have.
Show me where apathetic means no communication.
It means no feelings. No feelings, no communication of feelings, QED.
In the first place, how do you know the quotes are referring back to the FTOIL page? In the second place, the FTOIL page specifies that there are two versions of the HW scene and that Cloud shares "strong feelings" with Tifa ONLY when Tifa's affection level is high.
Lies, damn lies, and peurile lies.
The FTOIL page DOES NOT specify any of that shit, and eve P232 doesn't say that. It says that the 'feelings will be strongly and earnestly conveyed' when Tifa's AV is high. Says jack shit about the feelings themselves being strong only when her AV is high.
So when the quotes say that the two confirm mutual feelings, it can be referring to the LA version as easily as it can be referring to the HA version.
In which case, so too can the romantic feelings quote. It specifies neither version. Merely that feelings are romantic.
I'm still unclear what you mean. Are you saying that the LA scene isn't described on the Deviations page? If so, then I don't see how that matters.
She's saying the distinction IS BETWEEN Feelings and indifference, that the indifference version is not the feelings version. And we're told the feelings version happens.
For one thing, the Deviation page clearly says that there are two versions of the scene depending on Tifa's affection level, and that the conversation involves "strong feelings for each other" ONLY when Tifa's affection level is high.
Again, not at all. The deviation section of P232 does not use the 'for each other' wording AFAICR. The main story segment, which mentions no 'ifs' does, though.
So, even if I'm wrong about the devation section, the story section makes that irrelevant.
In the second place, it doesn't matter because both versions were described fully in the FFVII UO.
Actually, it's stated on the Deviations page:
-snip quote again because the gish gallop is really getting bad, and I mean that in she's doing it poorly-
It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation in both versions.
Conversation does not equal feelings communicated.
Then how come I'm not the only Clerith advocate who noticed it?
Because you tell them about it. QED.
And frankly, the way Cloti's
What of the Cloti's? What thing does Cloti have?
in this debate are arriving at the conclusion that the HA HW scene is canon is extremely complicated - I'd say it's far more complicated than the way I'm arriving at my conclusion.
They've used it in their story summaries, called it the most impressive in the game, and refer to it at least once if not multiple times in every sourcebook released.
How in the name of fuck is that logic complicated? "They hammer us with the idea of one particular version. Guess that one happened, then."
Hey, I didn't use the word apathetic to describe the scene - the FFVII UO did, so complain to SE. Besides, the JP word can also mean "candid", so that may have been the word they intended. I don't know.
An evasion of the points raised in the second and third sentences...
The post you linked to said it best:
Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. ~Rygdea
Rygdea says right there that you can't say what the meaning is for sure. Rygdea also says this:
Hito said, quite explicitly, that 'Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman"'
In other words, Hito himself says you can thing entirely wrongly that someone is your Koibito.
It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud. ~Rygdea
There's the crux of the problem right there. The only one who makes any sense TO YOU is Cloud. To me, it makes no sense whatsoever because I think Cloud loves Aerith, not Tifa.
Then who, in the context of just the movie, would the phrase refer to? Who else besides the man she belongs with, has a future with, and understands and supports? Who besides the man she was actually talking about in the referenced scenes?
Forget 'because I think Cloud loves Aerith,' and answer, honestly, who in the fuck else relevant to Tifa's life would love her romantically.
And saying 'I think Cloud loves Aerith' is inconsistent with 'it's up to choice.' Again.
Plus, I saw no indication of romance existing between Cloud and Tifa on those pages of the Reunion Files. Furthermore, Nomura said that he had no idea if there was a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa between FFVII and AC/ACC.
No, he said he had no idea ABOUT it. He also said the movie profoundly grasped the truth of their relationship.
Furthermore, Cloud's name wasn't used in that quote in RF.
So there's nothing to confirm that it's Cloud. It's only your interpretation and opinion.
And Aerith's name is never used in COLW and Sephiroth's never used in COLB. Nothing to confirm Man and Woman are them, either.
And yet in the post you linked me to, Rygdea said that koibito means "since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection". If Tifa is "like a sweetheart", that would mean that Tifa is the object of affection to someone. Tifa's clearly the object of affection to Johnny - he even named his place "Johnny's Heaven" after the "Seventh Heaven" because he wanted to live like Tifa.
And Johnny's not in Reunion Files nor even remotely related to the movie. Or Tifa's life. How does that affect her roles in life?
Sure, it's possible - but I'd question just how healthy a relationship of that kind would be.
You've just shat upon the relationship of every involved person in this thread. Most of the parents of people here too. Congratulations. You've basically said everyone ever has a questionable healthy romantic relationship all based on a botched translation.
Go you.
Sorry, but it's not common knowledge and SE has not been saying it for awhile now. It's merely what you interpret them to be saying - it's not fact by any means.
Irony, thy name is Anastar.
You know what question I don't think ever gets answered? Why we can't be sure of Tifa's 'beloved-er' but we can be sure of who she's like a momma to and who she's an ally to. None of THEM are named either.
I don't see how that statement implies that two people are in a romantic relationship. As far as I know, it can pertain to more than just romantic relationships.
When have you ever seen it used in that way?
It says on the FTOIL page that it's optional by referring to page 232, which contains information pertinent to the scene.
And P232 does not say the mutual confirmation is optional. In fact, it says the mutual confirmation happens in the story.
It says on page 232 that the scene has two versions and that it's only when Tifa's affection level is high that Cloud and Tifa share strong feelings with each other.
Which is wrong, but even then, it says they share those feelings in the story section.
The FFVII UO says that when Tifa's affection level is low, the scene is apathetic and ends short.
The exact same quote specifically contrasts this to the version where Tifa's AV is high and the scene contains feelings.
We know that the conversation is apathetic and ends short because the Deviation on page 232 specifies that there are two versions of the conversation.
No, Anastar, we know the CONVERSATION is apathetic and short because the UO quote REFERS TO THE CONVERSATION.
The compilation never showed me that Cloud loves Tifa currently, so that's only your opinion. Actually, the first time I saw AC/ACC, I thought it canonized Clerith.
Yes, but you think he was going to meet her in the flowerfields for a picnic or some shit. You made up shit that simply was not there.
Tifa talking about lecturing Cloud with Marlene on that page doesn't indicate a romantic relationship. My mother has lectured me, my father has lectured me, I've had teachers lecture me, and I've had friends lecture me. Sorry, but lecturing does not indicate a romantic relationship.
But it DOES indicate CLOUD. Cloud is this directly linked to the RF Koibito quote.
What childhood memories do they share together besides one conversation at the water tower, and Cloud not being able to save Tifa when she fell off the bridge?
We don't know. They haven't told us. Enough, however, for them to know each other.
Why is looking for Cloud in the papers romantic? I look up Obama in the papers almost daily to see what the latest news is, and I'm not romantically interested in him.
You never made a personal promise with Obama at a well known local date spot that he would be your knight in shining armor if you were in trouble.
And how is joining Avalanche together romantic? Cid, Aerith, Barret, RedXIII, Vincent, Cait Sith, and Yuffie all joined Avalanche, too - were Cloud and Tifa romantically involved with all of them?
Anastar, you have completely lost track of the conversation. Zealkin said it was NOT talking about romantic involvement. She was simply listing how Cloud was a large part of Tifa's life, with the question of romance set entirely aside.
Read for comprehension.
Because I'm not trying to prove that Cloti is impossible or that Clerith is canon. I'm arguing that who Cloud loves is based on interpretation only, that SE intended it that way, and that SE has yet to declare either pairing canon.
And you are doing a terrible job of promoting a neutral position.
What do I consider to be canon material? I think a better question would be, "Just how reliable is material that gets contradicted?"
The point is not how well Tifa understands Cloud, but how reliable that piece of information is when it turns around and says that Tifa doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart and this makes her uneasy.
Tifa understand Cloud All too Well, but there are still some complexities of her heart that are beyond her. These don't contradict each other at all.
Page 21 of the RF says that Tifa opened her heart to Cloud - it didn't say that Cloud opened his heart to Tifa.
No, it's the Prologue book which explicitly says Cloud opened his heart only to Tifa.
Is it? Then why does Cloud look so miserable here:
He doesn't look at all happy to me. Why does he leave the Seventh Heaven to live in Aerith's church if he's so happy?
Because he's DYING and he wants FORGIVENESS. He SAYS AS MUCH.
Wouldn't he want to spend his dying days with the family he supposedly loves?
Because he feels guilty for having them. He doesn't want them to suffer with him. He's too ashamed as a failure to face them.
Pick one. Pick three. They're all entirely plausible and parsimonious.
Why does Nojima say that CoT is based on the premise that there will be problems between Cloud and Tifa that have nothing to do with Geostigma and Sephiroth?
Specifically, he said they
might still have these problems without the issues. But again, GUILT.
Why is Tifa uneasy because she doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart? Why does Tifa keep wondering if they're a real family? Why does Tifa say to Cloud in AC/ACC that, "I guess that only works for real families?"
Because Cloud has been emotionally distant. As for AC/C, it's called shock therapy. It worked.
He doesn't seem that happy to me.
Because he's guilty about feeling happy.
And why are those contradicted by the quotes I gave above if he's so happy?
They aren't. Cloud is happy, but he's also being eaten up inside because he doesn't feel he deserves his happiness.
Because he wasn't actually reunited with Aerith until AC/ACC.
But he was still alone even after their reuniting.
He wasn't not alone until Zack and Aerith left.
Because, as Nomura said in Distance, Aerith lives on inside of him. Because she lives on inside of him, she's always with him.
Aerith A: Lives in the flow of lifestream around the planet, where she belongs. Not literally inside Cloud. In fact, the AC playback quote you are enamoured with SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS she and Zack LEAVE, BECAUSE Cloud isn't alone.
B: lives on in the hearts of ALL her friends. Again, figuratively.
Aerith didn't depart for the Lifestream at the end of AC/ACC in the way you're taking it to mean. In actuality, she never left the Lifestream. Spirits can't leave the Lifestream - they're part of the Lifestream.
They can, Anastar, and do. Sephiroth's entire plan was to escape the lifestream and resume corporeal form.
It was what allowed him to communicate directly with the living world.
It's said right in the quote that you gave me:
Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him
Who do you think the person was who was important to him that he failed to protect?
Tifa, His mom, Zack, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, Aerith, Denzel. In chronological order. I may be missing a few. That doesn't include repeats, for the record. Remember, Anastar, People is a PLURAL word.
And I think it's more than logical that he goes to Aerith's Church to be near Aerith. It's the place where he can be closest to her.
But according to you, he's ALWAYS closest to her.
He leaves Seventh Heaven to go live at Aerith's Church while he's dying. Who is he going to be near while he's at Aerith's Church? Aerith or Tifa?
Neither. But even if Cloud was searching for Aerith, think about what he says the moment he meets up with her. He wants FORGIVENESS.
And then immediately post AC, he returns to living where he belongs. With the people who make him happy.
Not the point. The point is that not understanding the complexities of Cloud's heart makes Tifa feel uneasy. If not understanding Cloud makes Tifa feel uneasy, then there's something wrong with the relationship.
Once again, Anastar, you've drastically oversimplified the situation and shat on all real relationships at the same time. Good show.
Actually, I didn't say that. I said that there were some inaccuracies in the information. You think there are no inaccuracies in anything that's canon?
Of course there are.
Anastar, you say shit like that and get mad when I call you silly. You don't want shit, don't throw shit.
And actually, I said nothing about whether RF is canon. What I said was this:
As I've had others say to me about the FFVII commercial - if one part isn't accurate, then why should we believe anything else? ~Anastar,
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=381491&postcount=2143
So if we can't believe anything in the FFVII commercial because there's a supposed inaccuracy in it, why should we believe the Reunion Files?
We shouldn't believe the commercial BECAUSE IT'S A FUCKING COMMERCIAL. And even were it trustworthy, IT STILL DOES NOT FUCKING HELP YOU.
Well, that's nice - but it's merely Quex's opinion.
Also this. Stop fucking dismissing everything as just opinion. You've done it to analysis, you've done it to FUCKING FACTS. 'Opinion' is basically your word for 'I don't have an answer to that so I'll just dismiss it.'
The only thing SE has confirmed is that Cloud and Tifa are able to have a romantic relationship on an optional basis. SE has also confirmed that Cloud and Tifa are able to have a non-romantic relationship on an optional basis. Therefore, there's nothing canon about their romance - it's only optional.
And even if the 'optional' bit were true, that's still quite a lot more concrete than the evidence for C/A.
1) because He and Tifa have communicated feelings of love with one another
Optionally. SE has specified that they are able to communicate love on an optional basis ONLY. SE has said nothing about their love being canon.
You keep saying this. It continues to be wrong. Nothing on the FTOIL page or P232 says the love is optional.
2) Cloud wants her in a different way then before
You've yet to give me the quote where this is said.
You only just fucking asked for the quote in this reply.
3) Tifa is never said to love another man
Doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa
No. But it does mean that mentioning another man as loving her is irrelevant to her and her story.
4) no other mans love for Tifa has been relevant
But the love of other men for Tifa (like Johnny) has been confirmed on a non-optional basis
So has Cloud's. You just deny it as much as you can.
5) the fact that they were happy together as a family before Geostigma and guilt Actually, there's many indications that they were unhappy as a family. The family is said to be a family of friends.
No, Anastar, it's not. The family of friends was OLD 7th heaven where people had sins together. This is the family of three and family of four. The kids have no deep dark guilts.
And even IF Cloud is happy with them, it doesn't confirm that he's in love with Tifa.
The thing is, Anastar, we're not trying to say any one thing on its own does. We offer no simple silver bullet or champion. We offer many many bullets, many warriors, to fire at once, to march as one, to achieve together what one will not.
And that was merely anagonistic of you.
Actually, I assume no such thing. I said there's more than one meaning for koibito - that it can mean a mutual relationship as well as a one-sided relationship, and therefore you cannot assume which kind of relationship is indicated by the statement in CoLWhite.
Then why in the name of fuck did you make such a stink about us using the only translation which MADE no assumption there?
As for the statement in RF, Cloud's name isn't used and there is no reference to a romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud anywhere on Tifa's profile pages in RF. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that a romantic relationship exists between them.
There's plenty. Someone's gotta love her. In the same vein, Someone keeps getting mentioned in all of Tifa's quotes. Someone has an explicit future together with Tifa. Someone belongs with her. The dots are there. You just refuse to put pen to paper and ink between dots 1 and 2.
There is one BIG difference here. It's already been confirmed on a non-optional basis that Tifa is an ally in battle. It has NOT been confirmed on a non-optional basis that Cloud loves Tifa currently.
But again. we don't need to be told who she is an ally to. We can deduce it. We don't need to be told who she's like a mother to, we can deduce it.
You are arguing that in this ONE INSTANCE, we cannot possibly deduce who loves Tifa.
That's absurd. We've got more quotes talking about Cloud and Tifa together- including their own keyword- than we do talking about Tifa acting like a mother to anyone.
Sorry - I really tried to answer the whole thing - but it's long enough as it is and it's taken long enough as it is to do this much. I'll have to finish answering later.
DEAR UNHOLY FUCK, JUST ANSWER THE WHOLE FUCKING THING AT ONCE. You're giving yourself MORE FUCKING WORK by breaking it up, you ninny.
Addendum: Yes, mutual is the most commonly used meaning today, and yes, only Cloud makes sense.
But Aerith calling Cloud her boyfriend or lover in COLW would mean she was wrong, since they were never in a realized relationship.
Oh, and Shroudy, gone into lurker mode now that you've been identified, I see. What's the matter? Us knowing who you are make you lose your nerve?
. Which when you put them together ends up 'making [their feelings] clear (confirm what they are so they aren't vague anymore) together'.
