EDIT: Uhm. I think that quote was connected to Cait Sith's prediction of Cloud and Aerith's wedding... Aerith and Cloud's stars showing a great future... so beating Sephiroth couldn't have been part of it...
Well I don't think a source was given to the quote so I can't go and look and be like 'oh yes, that is what it says' or 'the context indicates otherwise' or anything of that nature because i have no sauce.
Uh, no, it's not his opinion. It is a fact that Nomura used it that way. It's right there on the goddamn page in the Reunion Files. He uses the word "koibito."
You are so full of lies and deceit that I'm genuinely horrified. This is trolling of epic proportions.
I think she meant that it was your opinion that koibito can be used the way Nomura used it... though apparently it's also Nomura's opinion.. and the dictionary's
Also have you been sending her your replies then? I won't bother sending them if you have been.
Uhm. I think that quote was connected to Cait Sith's prediction of Cloud and Aerith's wedding... Aerith and Cloud's stars showing a great future... so beating Sephiroth couldn't have been part of it...
IDK I always thought it meant there's hope that Aerith will be okay. Wasnt' the "we can see hope" talking about her death? something like "Knowing what happens makes this a sad prediction but we can see hope." ... hope for Aerith being okay I thought.
She's trying, but like I said, she's got her hands full enough as it is. I'm not sure if she'll bother posting here again after that, and I wouldn't blame her.
Some people here are being really welcoming and accepting, but it's things like that that make us not want to come here. Calling her those things is the same as calling us those things, because she's a friend and we back her 100%.
As tres mentioned, friends are not the same as mindless agreement bots, and us being cheesed off at Anastar or other Cleriths for shit they've pulled is not the same as being cheesed off at you.
Optimus Prime: "We're locked inside an enemy prison surrounded by countless Decepticons bent on our destruction... It's purely a matter of perspective." WOAH, get 'outta here Optimus and your well-said words of wisdom!
We'd be here awhile. Because I'd be listing all the instances of intellectual dishonesty I see, because that shit is ruder and more insulting than calling someone a fucktarded trogolodye in my book.
The only thing mentioned has been the night at the water tower. Cloud didn't even know Tifa was interested, and it didn't sound like she knew how he'd been in those months, only that she wondered.
Your entire argument relies on speculation of things that could possibly maybe be the case, you really don't want to limit this only to 'what was mentioned.' Two kids interested in each other spending some time together over the course of six months is far from far-fetched.
Not much, considering the first conversation they have in the game has Cloud about ready to leave if he doesn't get enough gil.
And her convincing him to stay on the weight of their promise.
He watched Tifa from afar his entire childhood. How much do you think he could've loved her? They describe it as "dim", right? Barely there or obscured, however you want to see it, they weren't friends. So I don't think his childhood feelings are concrete or say anything about his current feelings, because he currently knows her now but he didn't before.
You would argue that because he watched her from afar, he couldn't have known her well or loved her much.
Man's going very far to get noticed by joining the military for someone he's not that interested in.
Yes, I agree. But he specified Cloud, as if his feelings are different than everyone else's. He carries a heavy guilt that the rest of them don't, yes, but why? Because he cared about her a lot, in one way at least. It's cohesive enough to be a legitimate belief
He cared about her a lot- and so did everyone else. Cloud feels RESPONSIBLE for her death. That he's to blame. THAT'S how his feelings differ- he holds guilt regarding her. That's the emotion she's associated with officially, forgiveness is what he wants from her officially.
BTW, if we're including the DoC manual, you're being hypocritical by arguing against 'Tifa the Childhood friend.'
Also, 'Cloud the former SOLDIER' should also be allowed, even though that's blatantly wrong.
Cloud and Tifa didn't know each other during their childhood, I'd say it's more probable they didn't speak at all while he was trying to join SOLDIER (she asked Zack if he knew him, it didn't sound like she knew the truth), and they didn't seem to get close in the week or so before the game started.
We are TOLD that Cloud still holds them.
And if they are withheld by his false memories, then they'd be returning with the real Cloud who WILL be so pleased to learn of Tifa's feelings.
Of course. She's a loved one. But I mean that Cloud isn't the same kid who wanted to join SOLDIER to be like the great Sephiroth and get Tifa's attention.
But Cloud still wants to be the hero. He still holds that promise paramount. It is engraved in his heart as well. He does still want Tifa to notice him. Cloud and Tifa both unveiled the feelings they were holding. Not held. Were holding.
I think the guy's got an opinion, but he hasn't made it definite.
Tifa is still introduced as Cloud's childhood friend in AC Complete and Dirge of Cerberus. Nothing saying a romantic relationship is or isn't happening. He's still leaving it open. After Advent Children came out, he said he "didn't know" if they were in a relationship, so assuming he wasn't lying, during the development of the movie his intention couldn't have been on their romantic relationship. So I think when he ends up saying the movie tells the truth of their relationship - a romantic one, he claimed he didn't know of when he was making it - I'd say that's still leaving it open for us to decide.
But a year before he mentioned that there IS an answer eloquently displayed in the film. A year after he mentioned that Tifa is someone's beloved. The man might not have known the details, but the man does know.
Besides, it's possible he still "doesn't know" about their romantic relationship, and was touching on a different relationship.
As of 2k6, he can't not know about their romantic relationship. He knows that Tifa is someone's beloved. EVEN IF it's someone other than Cloud, that means he knows clear answers.
He said they have their own answers, and if our interpretations are different, they're still possible answers. He seemed to be putting their answers and ours on the same level.
Possible answers are different than actual answers.
"Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought." - Nomura
You miss my point. You can ignore Vincent and Yuffie. You can choose for them not to join the party. The story does not give a SHIT about what you did.
Ahh, gladly.
You see, a lot of people are saying Cloud only felt guilt towards Aerith after he became "himself", and it can't be love.
"This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself..."
[qote]"It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth."[/quote]
Cloud can only greive over romantic interests now? Also, again, self blame. Guilt.
CLACK SHIPPERS! HAVE A FIELD DAY!
And you probably DON'T want to recognize maiden, as it contains Aerith wishing the best for Tifa being together with Cloud and leading Cloud back to his body and thus Tifa after he kills Sephypoo.
"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself."
So, we get by this that Cloud is feeling very guilty in between the ending of FFVII and Advent Children. But I think people are losing sight of why he's feeling guilty. Like it's been said, context provides context.
So's Zack, Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, his Mom. It's THOSE dear. Plural.
"She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." -Maiden of the Planet
As in he thought WELL of her.
Also, that's literally the next paragraph after your last quote. Splitting them out is kind of disengenuous.
"Transporting mail around the world meant Cloud was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again." -Case of Tifa
"Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who Cloud will never forget/is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life." -Dirge of Cerberus game manuals
Where Cloud actually IS a former SOLDIER and he and Tifa were DEFINITELY childhood friends. You keep bringing it up, I will keep pointing these out.
"It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital." -Reunion Files [/COLOR]
This is not the fucking reunion files. This isn't even a quote.
*HK-47 voice* Conclusion: Cloud cares about Aerith.
The how's and why's are up for grabs, but that doesn't change that he cares about her, and he doesn't just feel guilt for her.
A no DOI Cloud cares. No one here, not even Vendel would argue he hated her. But you know what? EVERYONE CARED ABOUT AERITH. IT'S WHY THEY WEAR THE RIBBONS. But you need to transform 'care' into 'romantic love' and you aren't doing it. You also need to work your way around the fact that his OVERRIDING emotion regarding her IS guilt of his failure not just regarding her death, but his failures protecting everyone else. She IS the Symbol of his own failings.
Now, Tifa
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had developed a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in Advent Children, two years after Aerith had departed the world."- Case of Tifa
1. That's the U10.
2. You've QUOTE MINED. Let's go get the rest of the paragraph you've CONVENIENTLY FORGOTTEN, shall we?
"Compilation Check
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
「Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."
That bolded part? THAT'S why Tia has complicated feelings towards Aerith in ACC. Not because of the same reasons in FF7. You ignored a block of text TWICE AS LONG there. You quote mined.
This counts as being fucking rude, by the way. Quote mining is dishonest and rude. And considering that I've CAUGHT ANASTAR DOING THIS ONE ALREADY, I can only presume it's deliberate.
"She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated..." - 10th AU
These two things wouldn't have been included for nothing. I'd say there are two ways to interpret this - that Tifa is jealous, or that Tifa notices that "something between" Cloud and Aerith.
Or, ignoring your FALSE DICHOTOMY, that she knows Cloud feels an unreasonable guilt over not being able to protect Aerith, like BOTH QUOTES actually mention.
Seriously, you give me a quote mine and a false dichotomy fallacy in two paragraphs, that's suspicious.
What we're saying is, our interpretation isn't totally unreasonable because it's one thing to be jealous of another girl, and it's another when that girl is dead. At that point, she couldn't be jealous of their relationship, only Cloud's feelings. If she can see something, can you understand how we've been seeing that too?
She's not jealous when Aerith is dead. Her feelings are complicated because her very dear friend is also the cause of her lover's mental anguish. That's a complicated feeling.
We're told that Cloud cares about Aerith in much of the same manner we're told he and Tifa can exchange feelings. These statements are vague enough because we're looking for details not in those statements (excluding optional scenes - this includes "feelings of desire.")
If it's in 'much the same manner' then you can provide the quote stating 'he cares for her' quite simply.
Additionally, there's no optionality in the mutual expression of romantic desire. There are no ifs or conditionals mentioned in that mutual confirmation, either on the FTOIL page or p232. The deviation merely mentions how strongly and earnestly these are expressed.
Canonically, the most Aerith is introduced as is someone that Cloud has engraved in his heart.
Tifa is also the mother of the family he and She were forming, the reason his new life can succeed, someone who shares a future with, the woman he belongs with according to the head writer, and one of the people responsible for his happiness. Tifa IS important to Cloud. But HOW she's important to him, and him to her, matters.
But we know they're also love interests. And it's our interpretations that tell which girl we think he loves, if he loves either, or if he loves both.
Technically speaking, this ISN'T true, on two counts.
Cloud is a love interest of both women. That does not automatically mean they are his.
It is also not our INTERPRETATIONS that allow us to determine which, if either, he loves, but the evidence.
You've got your "feelings" quotes, which you interpret to mean romantic feelings
We don't interpret it to mean that. The FTOIL page TELLS US that the feelings are romantic. The 'feelings of desire' quote tells us they're romantic. That the line is risque tells us they're romantic and a bit sexual.
and we interpret to mean feelings of support/friendship.
But 'feelings of support and friendship' are feelings they already knew and confirmed. There's no reason for Cloud to stumble on these. And it's not like anything IS confirmed in the low version. The conversation lacks feelings. Again, we're told this. We have an actual dichotomy here. Either Feelings -and yes, they do have to be romantic ones- are shared, or no feelings are shared. We've been told that feelings ARE confirmed. We been told that romantic feelings ARE mutually confirmed.
We've got our quotes about Cloud's motives, which you interpret to mean guilt/friendship and we interpret to mean romantic feelings.
We've been TOLD they are to do with guilt. Cloud himself says he wants FORGIVENESS. You are intepreting romance instead of the more parsimonious solution.
Our beliefs are backed up in some way, whether you agree or not. Cloud is never definitively said to romantically love either girl in a non-optional setting.
Yes. He is. Hem and Haw all you like, but the quote on the FTOIL page DOES NOT MENTION A VERSION. Nor does something being optional prevent something from being canon, and we definitely have enough information to determine which version of the highwind scene Square Enix gives a shit about.
So, based on these "mutual feelings" Cloud and Tifa quotes, and Cloud's feelings alone about Aerith, we're determining from our own reasoning what they mean. Because that's what SE wants us to do. So that means nothing is definite. Yet.
No. There IS a definite something. There IS a definite story. We have more than enough evidence to determine a definite.
Please, Aerbear, Anastar, don't give us this line- and it's completely a line. From 1997 until very recently, the Clerith position was not that there was insufficient evidence to say Cloud and Aerith were definitely the case. It was the exact opposite- that they definitely were. And you still don't consistently argue that we can't say for certain- even Anastar's essay she copy pasted here said that it could be certain.
There you go, sports. Reasonable cause that Cloud might love either girl. We're given blanks and we fill in the rest on our own.
Because your “Reality” is a speculation itself given the fact that 14 years later, neither Cloti or Clerith has been officially declared canon.
And neither has Ingus/Sarah, Cecil/Rosa, Locke/Celes, Squall/Rinoa, Irvine/Selphie, Zell/Hotdog girl, Zidane/Garnet, etc. etc.
Things don't need to be 'declared' canon to be inescapably so.
And my reality is that a man who belongs with a woman, forms a family with a woman, has mutual feelings for a woman, and has a future with a woman, is very parsimoniously in a relationship with that woman.
Anastar's fantasy world is one where anything is possible. FF7 is not a world in which anything is possible. Simply BEING a fantasy does not mean there are no limits. Anastar's argument about 'fantasy' is that there aren't limits because it's a fantasy. This is not a valid argument, since I can point to numerous fantasies where the dead coming back is not possible. I can cite several FINAL fantasies where this is not the case.
He was there physically. Emotionally the boy’s a mess and a messed up person willl HARDLY compromise.
His justification may be the sake of his family but in the end, actions speak louder than words and his behavior is still that of hiding the truth, running away, neglecting his family and Tifa’s feelings and creating an entire world behind their back.
I get the sudden feeling that you think DSM-IV is a sexual fetish.
Trust me, no one will ever come out and say they enjoy being f*up. However, they do enjoy it or otherwise, they’d change their behavior and even if they come out and say it, as I said before, actions speak louder than words and the simple fact that they’re still engaged in a destructive behavior is enough fact to prove that they enjoy it.
Wow. Wrong on SO many levels.
YES- People WILL admit that they enjoy being fucked up.
NO- People engaged in destructive behavior do NOT always enjoy it.
NO- Engaging IN a destructive behaviour is NOT evidence of enjoying it. It's evidence of A DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR. Often these can be obsessive behaviors, that a person cannot escape no matter how much they want to.
No, I won’t accept it ‘cause you’re not giving me ANY fact to prove me otherwise.
We've been giving you plenty and you dig your heels in and refuse to admit you have no clue about Masochism or the psychology of destructive behaviors.
She’s still waiting for her knight in shinning armor to come and save her but Cloud’s no knight in shinning armor, he’s much more like a hobo.
None of them feel directly responsible for her death and blame themselves for it.
You ever heard of Survivor's guilt?
And this proves my point by exposing his lack of initiative when someone supposedly so dear and special to him is in danger, however when it came to Aerith, he did not hesitate to make a move.
HE WAS GOING TO KICK THE FUCKING DOOR DOWN. It took Aerith telling him that would ENDANGER Tifa to get his ass to reconsider. That does not show a LACK of initiative. THAT shows he's that fucking determined he was willing to fight an entire slum gang single handedly just in case Tifa MIGHT POSSIBLY be in danger.
He did enjoy what made him happy. But he also had survivor's guilt and doubted that he was deserving of his happiness.
This is, however, tangent to the point that you ask a man suffering from guilt and needing something to prove he is deserving of his happiness prove he deserves his happiness with that very happiness.
Yes, it was Vincent with an entire dialogue focused on the guilt he felt because of Aerith and most importantly, his meeting with her.
An entire dialogue? Cloud asked if 'Sins could be forgiven' Vincent replied that he never tried. Like GLD said, EVERYONE was a contributor.
Ok, let’s just ignore that they’ve clearly said that despite the similarities, Aerith could see right through Cloud’s personality and like him for who he was.
You're certainly ignoring that they've clearly said that Aerith WAS remined of Zack and she DID fall for Cloud because of those similarities. You're also ignoring that Aerith herself admits to not getting to actually know Cloud and wanting to meet the real him.
... So, you've basically decided if I say a thing it must be wrong, then?
Because that WAS the Null Hypothesis, and no, you can NEVER prove the Null Hypothesis. You cannot prove a negative. You merely DEFAULT to it.
Your argument boils down to mostly 'because I say so' and arguing contrary to the facts. We have not been relying on merely say so. We have been offering evidence. Other folks have provided quotes, statements, citations, etc. I have done this.
Forget the percentage.
Struggles in their relationship > happiness in their relationship.
I want you to read it, think about it, and consider what all those facts there MEAN for the greater narrative synthesis.
I repost AGAIN.
To atone for his failing. To maybe, just maybe, get a cure. Because Cloud started out looking for a cure. He stayed away when it looked like he was going to die without it. Cloud felt he wasn't worthy of his family and the happiness they brought him. He had to do something to be worthy of them, or be forgiven so that he could return to them.
Cloud isn't looking for someone else to comfort him, he's looking for something to allow or justify his own happiness to himself.
Part of why he initially takes in Denzel is because you can't bring back the dead, but you can take care of those still living. Denzel is Cloud's atonement, the act of justification which allows him to feel happy without feeling guilty. And when Denzel's sickness comes to a head, Cloud looks for a cure- he's not going to fail this time. And then he gets the disease himself. He can't face his family being a burden and a failure. He doesn't want to force them to take care of unworthy him. So he seeks whatever he can to release his guilt to return home.
At the absolute root of Cloud's story in AC/C is that happiness of his family life makes him feel guilty, and that he must DO something in order to deserve his happiness. But he's also afraid of screwing things up and ruining everything. Cloud's turning point comes when he realizes that succeeding isn't the requirement. It's trying. Pushing forward, even if you fail. By trying to atone, he's already atoning, already proving his worthiness of that happiness.
No, they remember being not THAT Close, but still somewhat Close.
And if we recognize the DoC manual as not bullshit, they WERE FRIENDS.
He didn't have any friends growing up. He didn't seem comfortable with Tifa. He was a loner, until he met Zack. Tifa just saw him as someone who got into a lot of fights.
Not just. She saw him as cute. She saw him as someone worth meeting at night at a well known date spot. She saw him as someone worth making a romantic promise with.
Yes. What I was trying to say was that if she didn't know how he was doing, I don't think they were speaking after they made that promise. My bad, I didn't explain it well
And Cloud specifically wants that family life WITH TIFA in a different way than before.
I always took this as Nojima saying he wouldn't impose his views on romantic love, marriage and family on CoT, since he's saying about how he thinks it might not work.
He laughed when he said he tried not to. That pretty much indicates he thinks he failed.
Well it's kind of how I've never seen anything to make me believe Cloud is in love with Tifa, like you've never seen anything to make you believe Cloud's in love with Aerith. It's been hinted at on both sides, but never said for sure. We can only speculate.
It's been more than Hinted with C/T. Even if you only count it as an IF, it's directly stated it's POSSIBLE to have the man confirm romantic feelings for her. That's not a hint. That's a Clue by Four.
I agree, I will admit that Cloud can be/been in IN love with both Aerith and Tifa during FFVII (similar to how in InuYasha the titular character was/is IN love with both Kikyo and Kagome). However, I do think that after having been together for a few years, Cloud's and Tifa's relationship is deeper (as of Dirge of Cerebus) than Aerith's and Cloud's was right before her death (not that it besmirches their relationship, especially when Aertih has given Cloud her blessing to move on).
If we're comparing FF7 to a Rumiko romantic comedy- and hell, let's just talk about those- I'd say that apart from the 'dead girl' aspect, we're dealing with something a lot more Ranma.
Of course, R/A wouldn't work under the current Clerith standards either...
Yeah, that is what I was saying. I am perfectly aware that they have very little screen time in it. I was just referencing it since it is the most recent (in characters timeline) entry the FFVII Compilation.
Not sure who to address this response to. IIRC, Tres sent the PM to me, but not all responses were from him. So sorry - not sure who I'm answering here.
Yes, my father had a dresser in his room, but I think Cloud does, too. I labeled what looks to me like a cabinet in the following picture:
And no, my father didn't keep tires in his room, but Cloud's not the first guy to do something like that - you see that kind of thing in movies and TV sometimes.
Ah, Defeated Tifa. I was wondering when that would come back again. You keep insisting that she's unhappy and defeated when she smiles and buried her head in his chest, and the UO says they were discussing this. Unlike many arguments you call such, this IS merely your opinion.
The point is, Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second - then he thinks of Tifa. To me, that indicates that Aerith means more to him, since she's the first on his mind. As for what it means about the other characters, think what you like.
To the narratively minded, the crescendo of a sequence will be the most important. Not the start of it. You don't bury the lead, you save it for the climax.
[qote]Many people want to spend their dying days with the people they love most - that says a lot when Cloud leaves the 7th Heaven to go live in Aerith's Church before he dies.[/quote]
And if that's what Cloud had done, then maybe you might have a point. But he left for a cure and went to the church for FORGIVENESS.
Yes, we know he went back - but the ending of the movie didn't show Cloud returning to the Seventh Heaven. Instead, SE seemed to think it was more important to end the movie with scenes of Cloud surrounded by flowers that remind everyone of Aerith. Nomura even said he chose to film the ending in Hawaii because the flowers surrounding the road are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.
Fucking hell, woman, you lie again and again on this subject. HE NEVER SAID THAT. He said they chose to film there BECAUSE HE WANTED THE OCEAN OVER THE HORIZON.
THERE. STOP SAYING IT'S ABOUT THE FLOWERS. IT'S WRONG.
Usually, when you want to convey that someone leaves and never returns, you say they "leave for good". SE didn't say that about Aerith.
AGAIN you claim a fact is an opinion. And yes, THAT WAS A FACT. Nomura DID use it like that. It WAS used in that fashion.
I never said he doesn't return to the Seventh Heaven. I said we didn't SEE him returning to the Seventh Heaven. If SE left his return out of the movie, then they obviously didn't think his return was very important. Instead, SE thought it was more important to show Cloud surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith, which implies that they are always together.
Just to echo Tres, but more bluntly, you're basing that on only YOUR say so, and if you'd like to claim you aren't, EVIDENCE will be required.
Point is, we never saw anything to indicate that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship after AC/ACC. Nomura clearly said that he didn't know if Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC/ACC.
He said he didn't know anything ABOUT their relationship. Materially different given he said one year prior that the movie displayed a sublime truth about said relationship, and a year later that Tifa was someone's beloved.
We were shown nothing that indicates Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship during or after AC/ACC. So if you think they have a romantic relationship, it's nothing but pure assumption.
But 'Aerith and Cloud are always together' ISN'T?
Seriously, belong together, form a family together, live together, find a commune together, have a future together, mutual feelings, she's someone's Koibito, he sees her as mom, she sees him as dad. This is not a difficult jigsaw.
EDIT: Uhm. I think that quote was connected to Cait Sith's prediction of Cloud and Aerith's wedding... Aerith and Cloud's stars showing a great future... so beating Sephiroth couldn't have been part of it...
Yes it could have. It was not a wedding prediction. Cait's comment was not predicting a wedding, and his comment was not part of the prediction. It was a compatibility reading. It was also given by an explicitly labeled unreliable fortune teller.
Cloud not forgetting her is not some special status, then.
Sure. He can love both women. I was only showing how Cloud could have loved/is in love with Aerith as well.
And I know he's living with Tifa. Tifa's the one who is still alive. And I doubt Aerith is that selfish to take Cloud away from everyone who needs him in the living world. She healed Cloud and prevented him from dying.
Aerith is merely saying that it was not his time yet. She knows Cloud could do things for others as long as he lives.
After his battle with Sephy. If you want to include MWTTP, it's rather explicit, but that the hand in the light is leading him back to reality and Tifa's outstretched hand is pretty obvious in the OG too.
If you understand I'm a love deity, why aren't you taking my proclamations about love as divinely granted gospel?
Do I have to make you dream of sheep and blocks?
A friend will be offended when a friend is insulted, but will admit when the criticism is valid. We've caught Anastar repeating claims she's been told are false. She JUST DID IT in her last post.
Then you would agree he's not saying he has no idea if they were in a relationship, then?
To be honest, I've heard several translations for that line, they've all been backed with pictures, the dictionary and information on Japanese grammar. Only one translation, the one I've seen here, has Tifa being called someone's koibito as opposed to being called a koibito herself. So I don't know what to tell you.
He's also been giving you the information to find out, but you're concluding that there's nothing to find out.
Whose said he's wrong? I don't believe he would say things that the rest of the staff wouldn't approve of. If he's saying we can interpret on our own, I'm going to interpret on my own.
You keep saying this, and the FTOIL page keeps saying that they do, without regards to a version or with any optionality.
The high affection feelings were specified as of desire. But Square's made it clear feelings of some sort were exchanged regardless. In the low affection version, I took from it to mean they're supporting each other.
No they haven't. They've even said in the LOW version that the conversation is apathetic. It LACKS FEELINGS. Where are you getting that they've made it clear 'feelings of some sort' were exchanged in the low version?
Because you are right, we're told feelings ARE exchanged, period end of. But we're told that no feelings are exchanged in the low version, and we're told without regards to version that mutual romantic feelings are exchanged.
I actually did put more in depth references, but I edited a lot of that post and quite a few things got left out. Not really sure what happened. Sorry
Tres was specifically telling you to make sure you weren't misattributing or misrepresenting a quote, both of which you seem to have done with that one.
MOD HAT ON: Since I know the Cleriths are complaining about the warnings and infractions they have received, for the record, Tres received one for his post, Simba was warned for his one liner as well. FHS was warned for her smiley post. Cleriths are not being persecuted or punished for being Cleriths. Thank you.
MOD HAT ON: Since I know the Cleriths are complaining about the warnings and infractions they have received, for the record, Tres received one for his post, Simba was warned for his one liner as well. FHS was warned for her smiley post. Cleriths are not being persecuted or punished for being Cleriths. Thank you.
I believe these responses are from you, Tres, but I'm not sure. Sorry if I have the wrong person.
Tres said:
I had intended to wait for a response to my letter about Anastar's concession before replying to anything further from her, but since she seems to need clarification on several things I've tried talking to her about prior to this, and needs several inaccuracies clarified, I'm going to respond to this -- and I will be straight-up with her while doing so. There won't be any mockery whatsoever in this post.
I'm really trying to treat you with dignity here, Anastar. Really.
Chantara said:
Yes, I know the summary says what happened in the story. However, the Clerith date scene is used in the summary, too - is it not? I've heard Tres say many a time that he doesn't think the Clerith date scene is canon, and neither do I. So how come that doen't make the Clerith date scene canon, but it does make the HA HW scene canon?
Which story summary? The 10th AU's story summary doesn't show any of them. It just mentions Cait Sith stealing the Keystone at the Gold Saucer and giving it to Tseng.
If you mean in the U20 Scenario's story summary, the Aerith date doesn't seem to get more attention than the other three there, no:
Gold Saucer
The Keystone falls into Tseng's hands, and he heads for the Temple of the
Ancients
Cait Sith's true colors are revealed
After collecting information in various places on the key to opening the Temple of the Ancients, Cloud's team learns that it's in Dio's possession. After successfully gaining it from him at the Gold Saucer, the party spends the night at the hotel. That night, while Cloud is on a date with one of his companions, they witness Cait Sith passing the Keystone to Tseng. He has been a Shin-Ra spy. Marlene is taken hostage; hereafter, though, Cait Sith's behavior with the party doesn't change; they chase after Shin-Ra, heading for the Temple of the Ancients.
'...So, you have to do as I say.'
[Screenshot caption of Aerith's date]
During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud.
Deviation
Who is the date companion?
Cloud's companion for the date is determined by your choices in the progress of the story. Whichever character amongst Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie and Barret has the highest value in the "affection rating" will be the one to invite Cloud out for the date; here are screenshots representing each. The course of each date is the same, but, as you can see, they each develop in their own way depending on the companion.
[Screenshot caption of Tifa's date]
Tifa tries to reveal her feelings to Cloud, but can't say it in the end.
[Screenshot caption of Yuffie's date]
Yuffie quietly moves over to Cloud and boldly kisses him on the cheek.
[Screenshot caption of Barret's date]
Barret arrives on his own at the idea that Cloud has his eye on Marlene.
That's the Deviation page specified at the top of the Clerith date picture on the FTOIL page. That's not the story summary you keep referring to when you say that the HA HW scene is used.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
Why did SE even include the Clerith date picture if it has no relevance to the title of the page? What's the point of including the Clerith date picture if SE is declaring Cloti canon? IF SE was declaring Cloti canon on that page, then why even show the Clerith scene?
IF SE wanted to declare Cloti canon on that page, all they had to do with show the HW scene only (no Clerith date scene) and not mention that the HW scene has two versions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
But they didn't. Instead, they showed both pairings under a title saying that romantic love develops between the protagonists, and said that both pairings are optional. That obviously means it's up to interpretation. You're the one in denial - not me.
There's a problem with your question and how you're approaching the entire page in that you're referring to the portion about the Gold Saucer date as "the Clerith scene" and reducing the matter to representing Clerith and Cloti. The Gold Saucer porition isn't representing Clerith -- it's representing four different scenes that can happen there, none of which involve Cloud professing romantic intentions for anyone.
The mere fact that SE uses the Clerith date scene picture means that SE is mentioning the Clerith date scene.
That doesn't contradict my previous questions. Let me put it this way: why would SE show ANY picture other than the HA HW scene on the FTOIL page if they intended Cloti to be canon? As I've pointed out before, FFVII is the ONLY game with two pictures on the page showing the main hero with two different girls. The page numbers at the top of BOTH pictures specifies that BOTH scenes are optional. The picture of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is used in both the LA and HA versions. FFVII is the ONLY game where the screenshots are labeled with page numbers that specify that the scenes have deviations that depend on the character's affection level.
That in itself says that SE is showing that Cloud can be in love with either girl. If SE wanted to say that Cloud loves Tifa only, they would've put a pic of the HA HW scene with no deviation specified and no pic of Clerith on the FTOIL page. The fact that deviations are specified according to affection levels and the fact that two pictures are used of Cloud with two different women means that he can love either girl, and that it all depends on affection levels.
Tres said:
Tres said:
In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness.
It says under the Tifa date picture (I assume that one was chosen by the person who wrote the article):
[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.
Now, it may be true that Cloud is "none the wiser to them" at the beginning of the date, but he obliviously learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date scene because SE says that Aerith tells him during the date:
During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
Like you said, Yuffie kisses Cloud during their date, so Cloud obliviously learns of Yuffie's interest in him during the date. Looks like Cloud learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date, too, since she tells him.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
Why put CloudxAerith on the page if it's not part of what the FTOIL page is talking about?
Here's an example of what I'm trying to point out. You see the date scene as a CloudxAerith scene, and that's not how it's treated in the book. It's treated as a completely amorphous scene in terms of pairings.
And you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There is absolutely no reason for SE to put a picture of any Date scene on the FTOIL page if all that SE wants to say is that Cloud loves Tifa. IF SE was just trying to say that Cloti is canon, then a picture of the HA HW scene (specifically the HA scene, not a pic used in both the LA or HA versions) on the FTOIL page with no mention of deviation according to affection levels is enough.
Instead, SE put a second picture of FFVII on the FTOIL page with a picture of Cloud with a different girl than Tifa. Why do that if all they want to say is that Cloud loves Tifa? There is absolutely no reason for the Date scene picture on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with who Cloud loves. Otherwise, why put the picture at all on a page about protagonists in love?
And why mention the deviation at all if it's not relevant to who Cloud loves? SE mentions the deviation because it IS relevant. It means that Cloti is optional.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
What I said about games/movies/novellas is that I want to see the couple confirmed in the games/movies/novellas before I consider it canon.
That both is and isn't an unreasonable standard. There are a great many people who approach analysis of art in a similar fashion -- that is to say, the literary analysis method, where only the material contained in the work itself is interpreted, and any comments made outside of it by the authors/creators are not considered part of the work.
And who are you to decide how I should think? I'll judge by my own standards, thank you.
Tres said:
I myself prefer that approach, honestly. I believe in that approach. It provides a richer picture of the work, and is more rewarding to both the mind and soul.
And I honestly believe in my approach. If you are free to your opinion, then I should be free to my opinion.
Tres said:
However, what's being discussed in this thread -- and what the LTD has always been about -- is the official position on the matter. Canon. That being the case, extra textual material such as interview comments and Ultimanias are taken into consideration.
Yes, I know. And I am saying that I do not believe that SE has taken a canon position on Cloud loving either Tifa or Aerith. I think SE's canon position is that they've left who Cloud loves open to the interpretation of the player. I've formed that opinion from reading their interviews and materials, too, and we came to different conclusions.
If we both read the Old Testament, and you come to the conclusion that Catholicism is the proper faith while I come to the conclusion that Judaism is the proper faith, are you going to allow me to make my own conclusion? Or are you going to scream that I'm wrong and try to prove it until I finally convert?
There is no absolute confirmation for either side, and I believe that SE has said so.
Tres said:
That's why -- despite my preference for literary analysis -- I put it aside in discussions like this to discuss canon on canon's terms. Literary analysis absolutely has a valuable place in analyzing works of art, but identifying what's canon is not the place for it. In fact, the two schools of thought are, by their nature, at odds with one another.
I encourage you to pursue that approach as much as it interests you to do so, including -- perhaps especially -- with Final Fantasy VII. However, not only is this not the time and place for it (feel free to make other threads in which to do it, though), you're not applying the literary analysis standard evenly. You're including some extra textual material (for example, interview comments from Nomura) even while you refuse to acknowledge other extra textual material (i.e. Ultimania story summaries).
Yes, I understand that the two languages are very different. However, Tres said that it could have been translated as "Drink in another room", which does NOT use a possessive. So why is it *always* translated as "Drink in your room" if it can also be translated as "Drink in another room"? There must be a reason.
Given the differences in the languages, interpretation of context often plays as significant a role as a word's closest direct meaning in English. There's a reason professional translators prefer to be called "interpreters." I'd go as far as to say that translation from Japanese to English calls more for interpretation of context than anything else, but that's neither here nor there.
The point is, despite the official English translation of Case of Tifa going with "your room," that's not necessarily correct. As mentioned, the original sentence lacked any possessive particle, so it was left to the translatior to determine what room Tifa must have been talking about.
And the translator was not perfect in all cases. This is the same translator, after all, who caused English-speaking fans to think Case of Tifa contained a continuity error by having it say that Cloud told Elmyra about Aerith's death post-Meteor (Reeve had already told her and Marlene about it during the original game). The translator even went as far as to include the statement that Cloud told her as gently as he could, which was not at all in the original Japanese sentence.
What the original Japanese said about Cloud talking to Elmyra was "hanashimatta," which means "talked" -- so there was never a contradiction. The original language only ever said that Cloud talked to Elmyra about Aerith's death, not that he informed her of it. Yet the translator fucked it up.
Please note what you said in the second paragraph of your response:
"The point is, despite the official English translation of Case of Tifa going with "your room," that's not necessarily correct."
If it's not necessarily correct, then it's not necessarily incorrect, either - is it? It is indeed possible that she said, "your room", is it not?
That is what I've been trying to point out, Tres. There is evidence that it is his room. It has not been proven that's where he sleeps, but it hasn't been proven that it's not where he sleeps, either.
There has been no definite answer given, so you can't make assumptions about it.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies. Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.
Okay, true. I was thinking Marlene was there, but you're right.
Anastar said:
In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like. In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:
There's no TV, chair, mirror or clothing trunk that I can see, hon. I'm being as polite as I can here. Those things just aren't there.[/QUOTE]There is a chair, mirror, and an open trunk. I thought at first glance before lightening the picture that the open trunk lid was a TV. I labeled them all in the following pic:
The word does not on its own indicate a relationship, no. In the case of its usage in the Reunion Files, though, it's describing Tifa's role in the movie. Who but Cloud would then fit?
Given that we know Cloud is Tifa's koibito, if she is also his, then that would point to a relationship. Or at the least mutual feelings.
Then the same should apply to "koibito" in Case of Lifestream White. If Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and he is also hers, then that would point to a relationship. Or at least mutual feelings.
Thing is, Cloud is not said to be Tifa's koibito in RF.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Johnny wants Tifa, too.
He's not obviously wanting to nail her and have a romantic life with her, though. Heck, we've never even been given an indication that he wants her sexually.
If you ask me, we haven't seen that from Cloud towards Tifa, either. Interpretations differ.
Tres said:
Anastar said:
At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.
"Koibito" has a specific meaning in that it identifies someone who is desired by another. That is its meaning. It can be translated (which is to say interpreted, depending on the context) as "beloved," "lover," "girlfriend"/"boyfriend" or "sweetheart," yes -- but its actual meaning remains "one who is desired by another" and any of those other words are a translator's choice for best conveying their understanding of the context.
On its own, it doesn't inherently entail reciprocity, though. Ever. Even in the case of the Reunion Files quote, reciprocity can only be said to be entailed because of Tifa's own otherwise confirmed feelings.
Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
Tres said:
Anastar said:
Have I ever said we can't use non-Compilation evidence? I remember telling Tres to stop using Shadow as evidence for how the HA HW scene is canon, but as long as a game has Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in it - why not? That's a very different thing.
And I find your need to constantly find evidence outside of the Compilation to prove your point ridiculous. Try using evidence from the Compilation for a change.
You're saying one can't be both someone else's nakama and their koibito? That is a huge claim you will need to substantiate. It isn't true.
Also, Aerith is called Cloud's nakama too. Off the top of my head, I know her Reunion Files profile calls her this. Seems like her 10th AU profile and the Dissidia Ultimania's "Link to the Original" section for FFVII does too.
First, I've never heard Aerith referred to as Cloud's "nakama".
However, if you're going to insist that a person can be a "nakama" and a "koibito" at the same time, and that Aerith is also called Cloud's "nakama", then there's only one conclusion - you're saying that Aerith could be Cloud's "koibito" as well as his "nakama".
Hey Anastar, since you're here, I want to ask you about something.
2. Cloud and Tifa spend a romantic night under the Highwind together near the end of Disk Two.
~ There are two different versions of this scene and the version which a player gets is determined by Tifa's affection level with Cloud as governed by the Date Mechanism. In the Low Affection version, Cloud completely shuns and rejects Tifa's affection in that scene. Therefore, Cloud's affection towards Tifa is completely optional to the player.
6. Cloud and Tifa DO have sex. Why else would Tifa be embarrassed the next morning?
~ Tifa could just as easily be embarrassed the next morning because she cried and got upset when Cloud turned her down the night before. Tifa cries during that scene anyway, which may also be a reason for her embarrassment. Tifa crying during that scene also implies that it is not actually romantic between them.
So according to YOU, Tifa DOES have affection for Cloud in the LA version and he shuns and rejects her. So that means the feelings aren't mutual in the LA scene. So I guess this can't be canon then right?
Also:
5. Cloud and Tifa have sex under the Highwind.
~ There are at least three versions of the scene where they spend the night under the Highwind, and Cloud is capable of completely rejecting Tifa's affection in that scene. In the second place, there is absolutely nothing to prove that they had sex.
Where was this third highwind scene again? What happens in it?
EDIT
I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.
Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman". However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.
Oh, I know why you did that. Because that's the part where Hito said the part that you never listened to. Seriously, the ragging on Hito needs to stop. He just gave a perfectly accurate description of the word and you quote a part of what he said and say, "SEE? He said this!".. .and even if Hito DID say "Yep, only two sided, never one sided." it doesn't matter because he's bloody wrong then. But he didn't say that anyone so
Also, hey does this sound familiar Anastar?
Advocates of the CloudxTifa pairing often proclaim in love triangle debates that Tifa was confirmed to be Cloud's "lover" or "sweetheart" by Tetsuya Nomura in the Reunion Files. This is the quote they are referring to:
"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle."
- Nomura, Reunion Files
The word translated as "sweetheart" in that sentence is the word koibito, or koi bito in Japanese. There have been conflicting interpretations as to the meaning of that word. This topic was already partially discussed in the essay Is Tifa Really Cloud's Sweetheart?, but further evidence about the Japanese usage of the word will be offered here.
One member of the CloudxAerith forums by the name of Shadow Spirit is a Japanese descendant. who was raised in a household learning Japanese customs from members of his family who were born and raised in Japan. He is also fluent in the Japanese language. Another member of the CloudxAerith forums, who goes by the name Resha, spent part of her childhood in Japan and was also raised in a household similar to Shadow Spirit's. Resha has many friends who are native to Japan, and her family often takes vacations in that country. Two of Resha's friends, named Saicho and Kenji, are Japanese natives who still live in that country.
According to Resha, Saicho, Kenji and Shadow Spirit, koi bito is one of the most overused Japanese words with non-Japanese fans of anime and manga. All of these people take koi bito to typically mean "girlfriend/boyfriend", although that isn't always the case because its definition varies according to the way it is written. When written in katakana or hiragana, the word can have various definitions, such as "sweetheart", "lover", or "boyfriend/girlfriend". However, when koi bito is written in kanji (as it is written in the Reunion Files), the word actually means "the person who loves" and does not specify whether those feelings are returned.
In other words, when written in kanji, koi bito only means that one person loves another. It does not mean that the love is reciprocated. Since koi bito was written in kanji in the Reunion Files, it means that Tifa embodies the traits of "a person who loves", and nothing more. In addition, Resha has also stated that if Nomura truly meant that Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in this sentence, then it would have been more likely for Nomura to describe her with the words aikoi or aikou, rather than koi bito. Shadow Spirit explained it further in the following:
Shadow Spirit: "The literal meaning you'll get from that is really 'boyfriend/girlfriend' (that's what written on any dictionary). But the most precise definition would be 'the one who is in love'. In other words, it's sure that 'A loves B', but you don't know if the 'B loves A' is true... on the very least, you can say that it's a one-sided love until the text say otherwise."
Furthermore, while the word koi bito in kanji has been known to mean "sweetheart" on occasion, it is extremely rare. Native Japanese inhabitants typically do not use the word koi bito written in kanji to mean "sweetheart". It is more often used to mean that by non-Japanese fans of anime and manga.
Does this mean that the word was mistranslated in the Reunion Files? Not necessarily. It's actually more likely that the translator was not a native of Japan, or that the translator is a big fan of anime/manga. Another possibility is that translating the passage to say that Tifa is "like a mother, a sweetheart, and an ally in battle" is more succinct than translating the passage to say that Tifa is "like a mother, a person who is in love, and an ally in battle". Besides, the translator probably never imagined that fans would be nitpicking this particular word to death.
This same translator also commented on another claim made by CloudxTifa supporters about the usage of this word in Japanese. In love triangle debates, CloudxTifa fans often assert that the word koibito is only used in Japanese with romantic connotations to describe a reciprocated romance. However, our research tells us otherwise. For one thing, there are several common phrases in Japanese which use the word koibito without romantic connotations, such as Nihon no Koibito, which means "Japan's sweetheart", and Shiroi Koibito, which is a brand of white chocolate cookies in Japan. The name of the cookies literally means "white beloved ones". Therefore, our research shows that the word koibito can indeed be used as a general adjective without romantic connotations. FF_Goddess also asked the professional translator Hiroyuki (cited above) specifically about the claim made by CloudxTifa supporters about the usage of the word. Hiroyuki said that it's "nonsense" to think that the word koibito is only used to describe a romantic relationship and cannot be used as a general adjective. Hiroyuki confirmed that the word koibito can indeed be used when describing a person's character or trait.
So according to Shadow Spirit and Resha koi bito means "person who is in love." It's written in Kanji in CoLW so Cloud is Aerith's "person who is in love." It doesn't say Cloud is in love with Aerith, just that he embodies the traits of someone who is in love. It could be Aerith, but it could also be Tifa. We don't know, the text doesn't tell us, and until it says for sure, koi bito should be translated as "the person who is in love." For that matter, it could have been describing Cloud's personality. Maybe it's saying Cloud is a nice person. "Cloud is her friend and a nice person to her."
MOD HAT ON: Since I know the Cleriths are complaining about the warnings and infractions they have received, for the record, Tres received one for his post, Simba was warned for his one liner as well. FHS was warned for her smiley post. Cleriths are not being persecuted or punished for being Cleriths. Thank you.
So we're totally clear, I got a warning as well for a too short, insulting post I made. The mods do not give a shit if you're Clerith or Cloti when it comes to the rules.
False! The mere fact that SE didn't say jack shit about Aerith means they did NOT mention the Clerith date scene. I'm sorry, I know how much you want Aerith to have a place of importance on the FTOIL page, but she has no such thing. The picture used is irrelevant to the text that accompanies said picture.
That doesn't contradict my previous questions. Let me put it this way: why would SE show ANY picture other than the HA HW scene on the FTOIL page if they intended Cloti to be canon? As I've pointed out before, FFVII is the ONLY game with two pictures on the page showing the main hero with two different girls.
I hate when people do this to me, but I am gonna respond to this question with a question and let Tres, to whom the question was intended, worry about answering.
So, my counter question: What does it matter? Going by the text instead of the pretty pictures, the notation about the date scene is irrelevant to the debate. It notes nothing BUT optionality. It does not equal the actual meat and potatoes of FFVII's entry on the FTOIL page. That's ALL Cloud and Tifa.
The page numbers at the top of BOTH pictures specifies that BOTH scenes are optional.
No it doesn't, and why do you keep saying this? Its not like people can't go read the text and see that you are wrong, so seriously why do you bother?
The picture of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is used in both the LA and HA versions. FFVII is the ONLY game where the screenshots are labeled with page numbers that specify that the scenes have deviations that depend on the character's affection level.
This has been gone over how many times now? I'd make a genuine point about this, but you don't want examples of other deviations outside of FFVII that are treated the same way and yet still have a canonical version.
That in itself says that SE is showing that Cloud can be in love with either girl. If SE wanted to say that Cloud loves Tifa only, they would've put a pic of the HA HW scene with no deviation specified and no pic of Clerith on the FTOIL page.
You know, I really wish they'd done this at this point just to see where you'd set the goal posts next. But since they didn't, I'll have to content myself with the knowledge that IF SE wanted to say Cloud loves Tifa, they'd do exactly what they did because that's what the damned page is about.
The fact that deviations are specified according to affection levels and the fact that two pictures are used of Cloud with two different women means that he can love either girl, and that it all depends on affection levels.
Still using arbitrary game mechanics to support your points, and still using them WRONG. The affection level that the game tracks is, as has been explained to you before, TIFA'S. NOT CLOUD'S. Further, we are directly told Tifa loves Cloud. This fact is canon, it has been directly spelled out and should not be argued. I would say could not, but you CAN argue anything if you're willing to put sense aside. So that alone rules out any version in which Tifa's affection for Cloud is low. Please don't pretend otherwise. So, that in and of itself totally invalidates the LA HW scene.
Further invalidating your "interpretation" is that we are directly told that mutual feelings WERE confirmed. Tifa loves Cloud. Ergo, Cloud must love Tifa for mutual feelings to be confirmed. As stated prior, friendship and support have already been confirmed between the two long before this scene. Rejection is outright impossible since we know Tifa does love Cloud, ergo rejection would not be mutual.
Really, why are you still pretending any other reading of the evidence makes sense?
Actually, it doesn't say on his profile page that Cloud is oblivious to their intentions at that time. According to the profile's translation here:
It says under the Tifa date picture (I assume that one was chosen by the person who wrote the article):
[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.
Now, it may be true that Cloud is "none the wiser to them" at the beginning of the date, but he obliviously learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date scene because SE says that Aerith tells him during the date:
During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
Like you said, Yuffie kisses Cloud during their date, so Cloud obliviously learns of Yuffie's interest in him during the date. Looks like Cloud learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date, too, since she tells him.
And I am pleasantly surprised, this is a better point than I had expected. I would like to say you are assuming the meaning to be DURING the date. Its not nearly as unfounded a concept as what I normally see from you, so props there, but it is still unsupported and incorrect. Cloud still has no idea what the hell about the girls' feelings until later on. Aerith tries to get his attention on her date, and Cloud is clueless despite her forthright manner.
Also, bringing up Yuffie kissing Cloud in relation to a quote that ONLY mentions Tifa and Aerith doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure he becomes aware of her from that (and reacts very awkwardly). But the quote only specifies him as oblivious to Tifa and Aerith, so that bit about Yuffie... really isn't helpful to either side.
And you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There is absolutely no reason for SE to put a picture of any Date scene on the FTOIL page if all that SE wants to say is that Cloud loves Tifa.
I said it once before, maybe they just wanted a picture of Aerith there? Since the FTOIL page DOES specify Cloud and Tifa mutually loving each other, that makes more sense than adding in some Clerith hinting.
IF SE was just trying to say that Cloti is canon, then a picture of the HA HW scene (specifically the HA scene, not a pic used in both the LA or HA versions) on the FTOIL page with no mention of deviation according to affection levels is enough.
Keep right on saying what SE would do IF they intended to do X. I'll take the words on their page over the ones you put down any day.
Instead, SE put a second picture of FFVII on the FTOIL page with a picture of Cloud with a different girl than Tifa. Why do that if all they want to say is that Cloud loves Tifa? There is absolutely no reason for the Date scene picture on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with who Cloud loves. Otherwise, why put the picture at all on a page about protagonists in love?
Didn't you already ask this above? Maybe with fewer/more words? I've already let those memories largely leak out of recollection, but I am pretty sure you did. Are you trying to filibuster people out of responding?
No insult intended, honestly curious here.
And why mention the deviation at all if it's not relevant to who Cloud loves?
No it doesn't. Again, and this has been said so many times I swear I hear it in my sleep, the LA scene makes absolutely no sense in terms of what has been stated to have happened within the narrative. The fact that mutual feelings are shared is just that, a fact. We know for a fact that said feelings are romantic. Many different means of knowing this for fact have been detailed for you. The mention of a deviation does not invalidate a damned thing, and most certainly does not prevent the establishment of a canonical outcome.
And who are you to decide how I should think? I'll judge by my own standards, thank you.
Not answering for Tres here, merely stating that no one can reasonably tell you how to think, but since your manner of thinking is leading you to the wrong conclusion a suggestion that you try a different tactic isn't out of the question.
As for your own standards, they seem to be "ignore any evidence that supports Cloti, make up and twist things in order see Clerith." Things like chairs and mirrors, for instance, but we'll get to that.
[/quote]And I honestly believe in my approach. If you are free to your opinion, then I should be free to my opinion.[/quote]
You are free to your opinion, but unless it has evidence to back it up it has no place being used in this debate.
Yes, I know. And I am saying that I do not believe that SE has taken a canon position on Cloud loving either Tifa or Aerith. I think SE's canon position is that they've left who Cloud loves open to the interpretation of the player. I've formed that opinion from reading their interviews and materials, too, and we came to different conclusions.
Seeing a pattern among the bolded words here? For someone who likes to claim everything we say is naught but an opinion, you sure do love to express things in just that way. As opinion. As what you think. I think a lot of things, but the thought alone is not enough to say they are so. And you have frequently shown yourself to have considered only what you think supports your position or cuts down Cloti. I have seen you cutting out whole paragraphs of text to take away the context of a line you pretend supports you when it in fact has the exact opposite bearing. Until that has stopped, and remained stopped for a good long while, I will have a very difficult time believing you to have actually read the interviews and materials for comprehension, thus enabling you to come to rational conclusions.
If we both read the Old Testament, and you come to the conclusion that Catholicism is the proper faith while I come to the conclusion that Judaism is the proper faith, are you going to allow me to make my own conclusion?
Sweet holy hell, someone actually did it. They compared the LTD to a religious argument in a non-jesting manner. Its official, we're all insane just for being here.
Or are you going to scream that I'm wrong and try to prove it until I finally convert?
For the record, I've had many a religious type scream at me that I'm wrong and demand my conversion to their beliefs. The LTD, it ain't that important to me. Tres has been doing it much longer than I, but I am sure its the same for him (we'll wait for his response to be sure, of course ).
Is it that important to you Annie? Do you feel persecuted for your beliefs despite willingly entering a debate on the subject? A place where it is a given that you will be disagreed with?
Not to mention that, unlike religious dogma, this is a simple work of fiction. We don't have any creator statements or creator approved guidebooks for the Old Testament to help clear things up. We DO have those things for FFVII. So in short, your Catholics vs Jews comparison falls flat.
There is no absolute confirmation for either side, and I believe that SE has said so.
Whoa now, gotta call bullshit here. Since there is no definite answer, we actually have a reason to speculate. If there was a definite answer, we'd have no fucking cause to do so. I also note that you feel free to speculate whether there is a definitive answer or not, so seriously enough with that hypocrisy ok?
I see no such thing in either the lightened or normal example pictures you've posted. The "chair" is a bloody window sill. The "mirror" is a window on the door, what you claim to be a reflection is the wall on the other side of the door. If you look, it lines up EXACTLY. It would have an actual reflection if it were a mirror. The open trunk is a tool box, I believe. You, my dear, are seeing what you want to see.
I thought at first glance before lightening the picture that the open trunk lid was a TV.
Well at least you've admitted there is no TV in there. Here's hoping the rest of the non-existent objects you see get similar admissions in the future.
We saw the pic the first time. I for one didn't see any of what you claim to be there, and I know quite a few other people have already said the same. And explained the impossibility (due to size in at least one case) of some of what you think you see actually BEING what you claim it to be.
The word "chair" is over the chair. It's a low legged chair that looks similar to this:
I'm also pretty damned sure we all know what a chair looks like. It is not getting insulting now, it just is.
Then the same should apply to "koibito" in Case of Lifestream White. If Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and he is also hers, then that would point to a relationship. Or at least mutual feelings.
For one thing, you said "If Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and he is also hers". That's the same thing twice. Cloud is the he and Aerith is the she in the first part of that sentence. Ergo, you said the same thing twice, once with proper nouns and once with pronouns. And how does saying the same thing twice point to a relationship/mutual feelings?
Ok, kidding aside I am guessing you MEANT to say something more like "If Cloud is Aerith's koibito and she is also his" there. And that's the rub, because Aerith has never been described as CLOUD'S koibito. Ever. Period. End of. So no, this is not evidence of Cloud loving/desiring Aerith. It is evidence ONLY of Aerith loving/desiring Cloud.
Thing is, Cloud is not said to be Tifa's koibito in RF.
No, but we've already been told Tifa loves Cloud. Do we need to hear it again to know that? The focus of the LTD is Cloud's feelings, and we're told Tifa IS someone's koibito. Sure, Cloud's name wasn't directly used, but unless you're gonna try to claim Johnny or imply Barret again, who else would it be? Put that together with the FTOIL page, the answer is there.
If you ask me, we haven't seen that from Cloud towards Tifa, either.
For the romantic part, well we been explaining that forever now. As for the "wanting nail her" bit... know you not what risque means? Since you were kind enough to explain what a chair is and how labels work, I'm sure someone here would be happy to explain this in return. Tis only fair.
And sometimes the difference is that one of them is wrong.
Well, this quote from Vilaeth says otherwise:
Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
Quex already handled this dishonest piece of quote mining, both more politely and from a greater position on knowledge than I could have hoped for. And I applaud her for it.
When I said "outside of the Compilation" I was talking about FFVI.
So the FFX and X-2 examples that were also made to try and drive the point home are still fine then? Awesome. Tell me how HA-HW is different from Tidus' canonical return to being a real boy, despite both having a deviation in which the events are different?
First, I've never heard Aerith referred to as Cloud's "nakama".
I'd say the term definitely applies whether you've heard it or not, but that's neither here nor there.
However, if you're going to insist that a person can be a "nakama" and a "koibito" at the same time, and that Aerith is also called Cloud's "nakama", then there's only one conclusion - you're saying that Aerith could be Cloud's "koibito" as well as his "nakama".
Oh, I for one agree 100% with this one. She could be both nakama and koibito to Cloud, yes. If the evidence bore it out. It doesn't, so this is a moot point. The evidence actually does support Tifa being both Cloud's koibito and nakama. Hence she not only could be, she ACTUALLY IS.
I know I said I was staying out of the thread, and I mostly am, but I absolutely have to comment on this:
"Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought." - Nomura
STOP usining it! It's not a fucking LTD quote. It's KINGDOM HEARTS quote that has NOTHING to do with TIFA or Aerith for that matter. Seriously. It's flat out LYING to use that in the context of the LTD because it has NOTHING to do with it or even FFVII FFS.
Guess I'm a sucker for compliments as much as the next person. Thank you.
He is the only one who seems hung up on all this "interpret as you like" stuff. Nojima had specific things in mind for Tifa's role in KHII, but then Nomura decided to make it less obvious. Certainly there are differences of creative vision among these guys at times. And I do encourage you to do so, with or without Nomura pushing for it. FFVII in particular among the Compilation is a rich reservoir begging to be mined. I just also feel that in a discussion seeking a canon interpretation, we shouldn't get the two schools of thought overlapped -- unless, of course, the official position is that there is no official position. But even Nomura has said there are definite answers; he just didn't want to mention them.
So, we don't know those definite answers. And there isn't anything stopping me from believing they don't point to different endings. If you see it this way, you'll find this answer. If you see it that way, you'll find that answer. Nomura - and everybody else at SE, for that matter - have never said Cloud definitely feels this way about this girl, and not for this girl. They've never ended or closed it. To tell you the truth, I don't think some of you guys honestly believe it's canon. The fact that we're having this conversation says you know there's another side.
Things like the plot summaries speak for the developers as a whole, don't they?
I think summaries mean something a little different when it's about a story with options. I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened, but the way I see it is that they're placeholders. They can't skip these scenes, because even though they're changeable, they're parts of the story. So they put in one version.
They showed the Aerith date. I get that the description can apply to any of the party members, but her date was the one pictured. Like the high affection version, the Aerith date is the one cited, referenced and shown the most. But we already know there are options.
The high affection version specifically would be extremely important. It would change their relationship. But it's never again mentioned in the story. If something that important really happened, and it's canon, in my own honest opinion, it should have been mentioned in the story. From what we can see, it didn't have an impact, so I'm sticking with my guns and saying none of those three changeable events in FFVII are canon.
It's like how in Kotor 1/2, you can choose Revan's gender. So when trailers for the suck-it MMO (*cough* sellouts *cough) The Old Republic came out and showed Revan as a guy, I called it a placeholder. Then I read some Star Wars books where Revan is mentioned, and he's called a guy. It's officially part of the story, no way around it now. That's what I think is canon. I'm picky like that
Fair enough. They certainly do speak of being there for one another.
That said -- and I don't doubt that we will be unlikely to come to an agreement on this -- I will continue to insist that the feelings in question cannot be of support for one another. The two had been supporting one another all game prior to that point (and even earlier), so there can be no element of revelation or newly confirmed feelings in that regard. Maybe if it were the Turks and Cloud or Tifa a meaning like that would fit, but it doesn't in Cloud and Tifa's case.
Probably this is the argument from your guys side that I can understand the most.
Remember this line from Dismantled I brought up? "Besides, I have Tifa at my side, I'm not fighting alone-- this is what Tifa taught me.
Cloud must have been feeling alone before, that he was fighting by himself, and Tifa is now helping him. Furthermore, most of the game, I saw him as fairly indifferent towards her, not someone I'd imagine him living with or considering part of his family. So that scene definitely, the way I see it, effected their relationship for the better.
No need to apologize. I posted the detailed source info for that as much to help you as to correct a mistake.
STOP usining it! It's not a fucking LTD quote. It's KINGDOM HEARTS quote that has NOTHING to do with TIFA or Aerith for that matter. Seriously. It's flat out LYING to use that in the context of the LTD because it has NOTHING to do with it or even FFVII FFS.
Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
That part was about Kingdom Hearts, yes.
Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.
This part after, I took to meaning it's about Cloud's character. Sorry if I've offended you.
As tres mentioned, friends are not the same as mindless agreement bots, and us being cheesed off at Anastar or other Cleriths for shit they've pulled is not the same as being cheesed off at you.
This is no prison, you're not locked in here, and we don't want you destroyed. Also, if I'm a transforming robot, I'mma gundam.
We'd be here awhile. Because I'd be listing all the instances of intellectual dishonesty I see, because that shit is ruder and more insulting than calling someone a fucktarded trogolodye in my book.
Your entire argument relies on speculation of things that could possibly maybe be the case, you really don't want to limit this only to 'what was mentioned.' Two kids interested in each other spending some time together over the course of six months is far from far-fetched.
Well, to me it looked like Barret changed his mind.
You would argue that because he watched her from afar, he couldn't have known her well or loved her much.
Man's going very far to get noticed by joining the military for someone he's not that interested in.
I didn't mean he wasn't very interested in her, but he hadn't even spoken to her before then. We don't even know why he liked her. So that's my assumption.
He cared about her a lot- and so did everyone else. Cloud feels RESPONSIBLE for her death. That he's to blame. THAT'S how his feelings differ- he holds guilt regarding her. That's the emotion she's associated with officially, forgiveness is what he wants from her officially.
And I'm saying we know he felt guilt because he cared about her and wanted her protected. We're saying he wanted that because he loved her. That's our answer.
BTW, if we're including the DoC manual, you're being hypocritical by arguing against 'Tifa the Childhood friend.'
Also, 'Cloud the former SOLDIER' should also be allowed, even though that's blatantly wrong.
She's about the closest thing to a childhood friend he had, which is just sad. And we know that isn't exactly the truth, but she's still associated as that. Who knows why?
And yet she still knows him well enough to know he's not himself. It's why she asks him to do missions for AVALANCHE.
I thought she asked because she wanted him around?
Either way, she didn't really try to find out why he wasn't himself. If there was one person who is credited as knowing, it was Aerith.
Okay, so Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith and Aerith and Tifa and Aerith and Cid are all equal then.
We are TOLD that Cloud still holds them.
And if they are withheld by his false memories, then they'd be returning with the real Cloud who WILL be so pleased to learn of Tifa's feelings.
The younger part of Cloud says he will be so pleased to learn Tifa cares. And by withheld by false memories, I mean that he literally doesn't remember. He has those memories back now.
As of 2k6, he can't not know about their romantic relationship. He knows that Tifa is someone's beloved. EVEN IF it's someone other than Cloud, that means he knows clear answers.
And I'm saying, I don't think he meant that kind, but that he wouldn't impose his views of love/marriage/family on the story. Like how when Tifa wonders if they're a "real family" - I think she meant a traditional family with a mother and father who were together, and kids. And by saying that things might not work between Cloud and Tifa, I think he meant that he wasn't going to impose what standards he has for their life.
You miss my point. You can ignore Vincent and Yuffie. You can choose for them not to join the party. The story does not give a SHIT about what you did.
The difference is that Vincent and Yuffie canonically join the party. We see that with our own eyes in everything after FFVII. That's a definite answer.
And you probably DON'T want to recognize maiden, as it contains Aerith wishing the best for Tifa being together with Cloud and leading Cloud back to his body and thus Tifa after he kills Sephypoo.
Where does it say she wants Tifa and Cloud to romantically be together? She wants Tifa to support him. She's jealous that Tifa has that chance, but I never got the other impression.
It does. You suddenly find this true when it suits you. I will remember this.
A no DOI Cloud cares. No one here, not even Vendel would argue he hated her. But you know what? EVERYONE CARED ABOUT AERITH. IT'S WHY THEY WEAR THE RIBBONS. But you need to transform 'care' into 'romantic love' and you aren't doing it. You also need to work your way around the fact that his OVERRIDING emotion regarding her IS guilt of his failure not just regarding her death, but his failures protecting everyone else. She IS the Symbol of his own failings.
I'm not denying that. But I'm saying his guilt, and moreover, his entire character, isn't this one-sided.
That bolded part? THAT'S why Tia has complicated feelings towards Aerith in ACC. Not because of the same reasons in FF7. You ignored a block of text TWICE AS LONG there. You quote mined.
This counts as being fucking rude, by the way. Quote mining is dishonest and rude. And considering that I've CAUGHT ANASTAR DOING THIS ONE ALREADY, I can only presume it's deliberate.
No. It isn't. I know that we all know these quotes. So if I'm putting emphasis on one part, that's the point I'm making. I'm sorry if you thought it was rude, it wasn't deliberate. I'll use the full quotes now, I just thought you knew what I meant.
She's not jealous when Aerith is dead. Her feelings are complicated because her very dear friend is also the cause of her lover's mental anguish. That's a complicated feeling.
Well, I'm reading it differently. Tifa's been jealous of Aerith before, when she was alive, for being so close to Cloud. So I'm thinking she might still be jealous.
Or, ignoring your FALSE DICHOTOMY, that she knows Cloud feels an unreasonable guilt over not being able to protect Aerith, like BOTH QUOTES actually mention.
Seriously, you give me a quote mine and a false dichotomy fallacy in two paragraphs, that's suspicious.
Technically speaking, this ISN'T true, on two counts.
Cloud is a love interest of both women. That does not automatically mean they are his.
It is also not our INTERPRETATIONS that allow us to determine which, if either, he loves, but the evidence.
And evidence says we can reasonably believe either side without being delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest liars.
We don't interpret it to mean that. The FTOIL page TELLS US that the feelings are romantic. The 'feelings of desire' quote tells us they're romantic. That the line is risque tells us they're romantic and a bit sexual.
So, we don't know those definite answers. And there isn't anything stopping me from believing they don't point to different endings. If you see it this way, you'll find this answer. If you see it that way, you'll find that answer. Nomura - and everybody else at SE, for that matter - have never said Cloud definitely feels this way about this girl, and not for this girl. They've never ended or closed it. To tell you the truth, I don't think some of you guys honestly believe it's canon. The fact that we're having this conversation says you know there's another side.
That's not what Nomura says--ever. He has said: the answers are there. He has said that he likes players to come up with their own ideas on how to get the answers--NOT get their own answers. That's hugely different. And he has said he wants the players to speculate on the things they DON'T show and tell us. He has never ever ever said that there are no answers or that all interpretations are valid. Not once.
And while I can't speak for everyone in this thread--I most certainly believe Cloud x Tifa to be canon. What I don't believe is that SE needs to press-release spell it out for us. I believe the compilation narrative is explicit and straight forward enough to determine and clarify an outcome. The desire for SE to state "Cloud and Tifa are a couple" when all evidence already points to this fact is silly. Why would FFVII be the exception to the standard. Did they release a statement for any other couple? Not to mention that, yes, in fact, SE (via Nojima) has said that Cloud and Tifa are together. Some people (unreasonably and grasping at straws) state that he is referring to location... **sigh** So yeah, they have said it, but some people don't want to hear it.
I think summaries mean something a little different when it's about a story with options. I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened, but the way I see it is that they're placeholders. They can't skip these scenes, because even though they're changeable, they're parts of the story. So they put in one version.
Without specifying that there are even alternative versions in most cases... that kind of null and voids their optional happenings, and as has been pointed out a good dozen times, optional doesn't negate a canon version. Vincent and Yuffie ARE members of AVALANCHE, no matter how you play the game.
The high affection version specifically would be extremely important. It would change their relationship. But it's never again mentioned in the story. If something that important really happened, and it's canon, in my own honest opinion, it should have been mentioned in the story. From what we can see, it didn't have an impact, so I'm sticking with my guns and saying none of those three changeable events in FFVII are canon.
Fine, don't focus on it. They live together, raise children together, he smiles and BLUSHES when talking to her, she wears the pants in their relationship, she wonders if he loves her, he calls her his family... How much more do you really require to make the logical assumption as opposed to the GIANT leap that he's romantically smoozing a dead-chick that he knew for 2 weeks?
Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
That part was about Kingdom Hearts, yes.
Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.
This part after, I took to meaning it's about Cloud's character. Sorry if I've offended you.
The whole quote is in regards to KH. It's been used and abused and twisted by Anastar and other Cleriths on more than one occasion, so yeah, it's a bit of a peeve of mine to see it being used to suggest 'Nomura says there are LTD options' when he's not even talking about FFVII. Misusing quotes happens. Lying offends me, yes.
Most of us do, and most of us find it irrelevant to the LTD.
And I'm saying we know he felt guilt because he cared about her and wanted her protected. We're saying he wanted that because he loved her. That's our answer.
That lacks any form of substantial proof. Lots of speculation and removing and reworking established canon to suit that need. He loves Tifa. He has since he was 9. I have yet to see any source citing that he STOPPED loving Tifa.
I thought she asked because she wanted him around?
Either way, she didn't really try to find out why he wasn't himself. If there was one person who is credited as knowing, it was Aerith.
It is stated IN THE GAME that she wants him around because she's worried about him, because he's acting so strange and HE'S NOT HIMSELF. And it is also stated that she is CONFUSED by the fact that he knows things he should have NO WAY of knowing. She doubts HERSELF and her memories. So, on top of sorting out a shitload of mixed emotions about Cloud, she's trying to figure out if what she recalls is even right.
Also, Cid flat out says that the way Cloud talked and acted and moved was off. Aerith wasn't the only person that figured out the boy was not okay.
The younger part of Cloud says he will be so pleased to learn Tifa cares. And by withheld by false memories, I mean that he literally doesn't remember. He has those memories back now.
Because he has said the answers are there. He wants you to get to them on your own.
The difference is that Vincent and Yuffie canonically join the party. We see that with our own eyes in everything after FFVII. That's a definite answer.
Living together. Raising kids together. Speaking of Love. Blushing. Smiling. Happiness. Family. Relationship jokes. Struggle and reconciliation. ALL HAPPEN. That's a definite answer.
When have I denied this, really. Context also shows that there are two sides to this debate.
Pixels don't get Ryu mad. Intellectual dishonesty and willful ignorance, as well as omission and evasion of an argument.
Moving on...
The office... again? still? WTF is up with the pictures? It's an office. Get over it. Does he have his own bedroom? Who knows, maybe. CoT implies otherwise, but you know what, none of us have seen it or Tifa's so, it's not impossible (despite being improbable) but considering that Barret 'will see Marlene soon' the odds of it being a spare cot are far more likely that Cloudy-boy's bed.
Thing is, Cloud is not said to be Tifa's koibito in RF.
Aerith is never said to be 'Woman' in CoLW. Common sense is a valuable thing.
Also, did I just see the Old Testament and religion used to compare Cloti and Clerith? Just . Seriously, don't do that. They aren't even the same in any analogous sense. It irritates the shit out of me when Ryu or Tres does it too. I understand the comparison, I do, but it's just silly.
Also, the Tifa looking defeated thing. Wut? If you get the HA in-game, she just 'communicated' all night long with Cloud and in no way would be defeated. And if you get the LA version (according to some) then she just wasn't interested so there's no 'defeat'... which brings me to this point that is sticking in my ass:
CLOUD is not variable. I love how this is ignored. The ONLY variable in the date-mechanics affection is Barret, Yuffie, Tifa and Aerith. CLOUD, bless his ignorant heart, is a constant. His feeling do NOT change. This means if Tifa is feeling the love tonight (cue Lion King soundtrack) then they confess ala patty-cake and high-fives (without words) but if she is feeling reserved (maybe she's conflicted over him taking Barret to the Gondola) then she isn't receptive to Cloud's Buster Sword. So even if you believe that the LA or HA version is optional and neither is canon, guess what is? CLOUD'S feelings. They are the SAME in either version. So... do the math.
Alright, I dunno if or when Anastar will get to my post directed to her, and I made sure to remind her she is under no time constraints when I PMed it to her. So I'm gonna jump in here for a bit. Probably won't cover everything top to bottom aerbear, but there are a few things I'd like to speak on below:
See, there actually is something that should be stopping you from believing in different endings for the LTD. After Q's experiment, I saw only (I think) two quotes that state Cloud even COULD have wound up with Aerith. That is still not equivalent to the Cloti evidence, and you're still having to bend over backwards to see a "open to interpretation" statement that isn't there.
If you see it this way, you'll find this answer. If you see it that way, you'll find that answer.
FHS is the most recent to do it, but Nojima at least has made a point of spelling out that Cloud and Tifa belong together. And even Nomura's trollish tendencies didn't stop him from calling Tifa someone's koibito. So tell me again, who would that be if not Cloud?
They've never ended or closed it. To tell you the truth, I don't think some of you guys honestly believe it's canon. The fact that we're having this conversation says you know there's another side.
For the first sentence in this particular quote, yes they have. The FTOIL page is just one part of the ENDING of any possibility of the LT. Sadly, the death of the LT is not enough to kill the LTD, but that does not prevent a canonical outcome from existing any more than the deviation does.
for the second and third sentences above, just stop. The very presence of a debate does not bloody well validate both positions. I've seen and participated in debates where neither side even believed in their position, true. Debate teams, for instance, do just research whatever side they're assigned and debate for the sake of debating. But again, the mere fact that an issue is being debated is not in any way proof that both sides are valid. It lets us know there is another side, yes. The evidence being put forth still shows your position to be wrong.
And for the record, I for one wouldn't even be here if I didn't believe there is a canon outcome, and one that has been more than spelled out enough to recognize. I'd call that trolling, if anyone here is doing such a thing.
I think summaries mean something a little different when it's about a story with options. I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened,
Ok, I'm not sure how you can think a story summary does anything other than summarize the story, but you're on the right track to start with. You CAN reasonably say that the option that is chosen is the one that happened...
but the way I see it is that they're placeholders. They can't skip these scenes, because even though they're changeable, they're parts of the story. So they put in one version.
Yes we already know that there are options, and I would be fine with Aerith's date happening canonically if it were ever validated as such the way the HA scene has. Especially since Cloud remaining clueless about Aerith's feelings makes it, too, irrelevant to the LTD. But again, the Aerith date is irrelevant to the FTOIL page, so this bit of discussion largely means nothing.
The high affection version specifically would be extremely important.
By name? No, it is never brought up again. Do they describe the exact events that took place there later on in the story as told by the Compilation? No. Do we see the direct results of that confirmation of mutual romantic feelings? Like them moving in together, adopting kids, Tifa wearing the pants in the relationship, etc, etc, many things you've already had pointed out to you? Yes! Ergo, the results of the HA scene are on display in the story.
If something that important really happened, and it's canon, in my own honest opinion, it should have been mentioned in the story. From what we can see, it didn't have an impact, so I'm sticking with my guns and saying none of those three changeable events in FFVII are canon.
As I just described above, it has been shown to have an impact. I have no idea how you could possibly miss said impact, as it is on par with the footsteps of a kaiju at this point.
So stick with your guns, just be warned they are loaded with blanks.
Also, what is the third changeable event here? I seem to be slightly confused now.
It's like how in Kotor 1/2, you can choose Revan's gender. So when trailers for the suck-it MMO (*cough* sellouts *cough) The Old Republic came out and showed Revan as a guy, I called it a placeholder. Then I read some Star Wars books where Revan is mentioned, and he's called a guy. It's officially part of the story, no way around it now. That's what I think is canon. I'm picky like that
Ok, so you're able to accept that Revan was a dude with dude parts for the above stated reason. Then if you will open your eyes and accept the impact the HAHW scene had on the continuing narrative, then you should by all rights
accept it just the same.
Remember this line from Dismantled I brought up? "Besides, I have Tifa at my side, I'm not fighting alone-- this is what Tifa taught me.
Cloud must have been feeling alone before, that he was fighting by himself, and Tifa is now helping him.
When is that statement supposed to have been made, in terms of the original games time line? And at any rate, he's already been fighting side by side with Tifa, and they KNOW they're friends. So if indeed this comes after the HW scene, then what he means must be kind of different. See wut I did thar?
Furthermore, most of the game, I saw him as fairly indifferent towards her, not someone I'd imagine him living with or considering part of his family. So that scene definitely, the way I see it, effected their relationship for the better.
Furthermore, most of the game he is a mentally damaged basket-case without full access to his correct memories. And, I might add, even while suffering through that condition he was in no way constantly indifferent towards Tifa. Further furthermore, it doesn't matter if you could imagine him living with Tifa and building a family with her before that point since they do exactly that after. The only part of this entire paragraph that is both relevant and logical is that the scene effected their relationship for the better.
Having seen KH quotes brought into a FFVII debate multiple times, I'm sure most people are aware of this quote's origin. We just wonder why the bloody hell its being brought up again. You might as well start talking about the old FFVII TV ad, its just as worthless to this debate but at least it has the correct title attached.
I didn't say it was. But that she didn't know he never got accepted into SOLDIER says it's likely they didn't.
Is that more likely? Considering what we know of Cloud and his feelings regarding joining/failing to join SOLDIER, I should think it likely he wanted his very first letter to be news of his acceptance into the program. Since that never happened and he was so ashamed of it that he later hid his face from the people of Nibelheim because of such, its no surprise he never got around to writing. In turn, Tifa couldn't write first because she has no idea where to send a letter.
So maybe you're right and they never spoke again after the promise was made, but be aware there are other possibilities as to why they didn't keep in touch post-Cloud departure. And honestly, if they really spoke just the once then I doubt his feelings or hers would still be active and ongoing as adults. We're TOLD that their feelings are still present and active as adults, so your speculation here doesn't hold up as well as it could.
Well, to me it looked like Barret changed his mind.
Barret gave Cloud a convenient excuse to stay while still playing his douchey Ex-SOLDIER role for himself. It was clear it was the promise that actually stopped him from waltzing right out the door.
And I'm saying we know he felt guilt because he cared about her and wanted her protected. We're saying he wanted that because he loved her. That's our answer.
But the guilt and shame are the only feelings that are substantiated by the evidence, and evidence is being demanded. You cannot support your answer, so your answer is not good enough. That is how this works.
She's about the closest thing to a childhood friend he had, which is just sad. And we know that isn't exactly the truth, but she's still associated as that. Who knows why?
This and she knew he wasn't acting right. Again, she could tell he knew things he shouldn't, and did not know things he should. He was messed up. She flat out says she kept him with AVALANCHE to keep an eye on him, but yes she wanted to be around him again as well.
Either way, she didn't really try to find out why he wasn't himself. If there was one person who is credited as knowing, it was Aerith.
Everyone knew Cloud wasn't acting right, as has been pointed out this includes CID. Aerith knew Cloud wasn't himself, which is more than some of the others could say true. But she DID NOT KNOW the real Cloud, and so never figured out why he wasn't himself, only THAT he was not himself.
So who figured out the why and helped Cloud fix himself? Oh, why Tifa Lockheart, the only one he will allow into his secret heart!
And he hasn't given them. Why do you think that is, coming from the guy that always talks about interpretation and finding your own answers?
Because we don't need NOMURA to tell us the answers. We have other creators, like the ACTUAL WRITER, and the beautiful parsimonious evidence to do that. That is why you're wrong.
And I'm saying, I don't think he meant that kind, but that he wouldn't impose his views of love/marriage/family on the story.
Its pretty clear he thinks he failed at keeping his views out of it. And either way, the fact that there is love/marriage/family in the story for him to try not to impose his views ON is a pretty good sign that you're wrong.
Like how when Tifa wonders if they're a "real family" - I think she meant a traditional family with a mother and father who were together, and kids. And by saying that things might not work between Cloud and Tifa, I think he meant that he wasn't going to impose what standards he has for their life.
Except he did impose on the story, as evidenced by his laughter when saying he "tried" not to. And whatever you're trying to say here, it changes not the fact that Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel are always referred to as a family from this point onward.
BWAHAHAHAHA! No, really? So show me and everyone else this "enough" that you have please. Cause so far you haven't been able to show evidence to support jack shit.
The difference is that Vincent and Yuffie canonically join the party. We see that with our own eyes in everything after FFVII. That's a definite answer.
This is not a bloody difference though. The HW scene and its sharing of mutual feelings canonically happens. We see the results with our own eyes after FFVII. That's a definite answer.
What the hell does this even mean? You said as much earlier and it still makes no sense. WE KNOW THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THIS DEBATE! Context is not required at all to know this fact! And how does the presence of opposing side, which one would expect to see in a debate, have any bearing on the subject at hand again?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here people.
I'm not denying that. But I'm saying his guilt, and moreover, his entire character, isn't this one-sided.
Then substantiate it being a love thing, if you please. Or, since I already know you cannot genuinely do that, you might try examining other options. Like concession of the point.
I'll use the full quotes now, I just thought you knew what I meant.
Since people have been loudly complaining about dishonest practices such as quote mining long before that post, and a full explanation of what that means was provided for the confused... why weren't you already doing this?
Oh, and this is a good example of you ignoring context. Whether you provide the whole quote or not, its pretty clear YOU are putting all the emphasis on the portion you DID quote. Thus not getting the full context.
Well, I'm reading it differently. Tifa's been jealous of Aerith before, when she was alive, for being so close to Cloud. So I'm thinking she might still be jealous.
The evidence shows no such thing. Now if you added the word "uninformed" to the litany it'd be possible. But you'd need to be uninformed, delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest, or some combination thereof to actually claim that Clerith is on equal footing with Cloti, or to deny what has been established as canon.
'Feelings of desire' is exclusively to one version of that scene.
Yes it could have. It was not a wedding prediction. Cait's comment was not predicting a wedding, and his comment was not part of the prediction. It was a compatibility reading. It was also given by an explicitly labeled unreliable fortune teller.
It is if he gave such a heart-breaking speech while holding her lifeless body in his arms. And if he went on to continue what Aerith had started to save the Planet. And if he expressed being able to meet Aerith is the land of supreme happiness. And if he keeps his own undying feelings for Aerith.
Ishtar said:
Yes, she's telling him that the living, not the dead is what to focus on. She's sending him a message to be with the living hottie.
And you get this from Aerith wanting Cloud to continue living? That she's handing Cloud over to Tifa?
Ishtar said:
After his battle with Sephy. If you want to include MWTTP, it's rather explicit, but that the hand in the light is leading him back to reality and Tifa's outstretched hand is pretty obvious in the OG too.
So you're taking that to mean that Aerith is handing Cloud to Tifa? Whut?
This is the hand reach scene near the end of the game, isn't it?
Ishtar said:
If you understand I'm a love deity, why aren't you taking my proclamations about love as divinely granted gospel?
Do I have to make you dream of sheep and blocks?
I think aerbear meant that Ryu shouldn't get mad because it was just a game.
And I get why Ryu would be mad. Problem is, none of us are doing it intentionally.
GLD, would you mind, terribly, if I could ask to have your post again? I mean, the one we had been debating before. I can't seem to find it?
Still not seeing how you get any romance out of his speech over Aerith's dead body. Still seeing Tifa and Yuffie breaking down crying while he just talks.
And if he went on to continue what Aerith had started to save the Planet.
You just quote mined Quex. You cut out just a small portion of what she said and left the rest of it behind in order to make it support what you wanted to say. Dunno if you did it on purpose but not cool.
And let me say for the record, the meaning of koibito has been discussed to such an extent that there should be no confusion on this matter. If Tifa is someone's koibito, then someone loves/desires Tifa.
I think aerbear meant that Ryu shouldn't get mad because it was just a game.
Well, you mined a quote of Quex's in the very post I am responding to. So if you're doing these things unintentionally, my friends... try harder to NOT do so.
GLD, would you mind, terribly, if I could ask to have your post again? I mean, the one we had been debating before. I can't seem to find it?
I cba to go looking for old posts where we were debating before I realized you were talking preferences rather than canon. If you've decided to discuss canon after all, then let's just go from here alright?
idk if you're being serious or not but there is no japanese koi space bito. unless sailor moon should actually be sailormoon because here's the thing, there's not really any strict spacing in japanese formal lettering.
It's impossible to for me to tell what exactly's been covered/asked/answered/rebutted
but
I've never understood why the FF7 date mechanics are cited as proof of player choice. You don't really get to pick who Cloud dates. You can't, because you really have no idea exactly how much affection is going to be doled out for a given event. How am I supposed to know that Aerith gets +10 for being in my party when I fight Dyne? Or that Tifa only gets +3 for the exact same event (which has fuck all to do with romance anyway)?
Answer: you don't, and you can't, because the game doesn't tell you. Unless you know the exact affection value given by each choice - meaning you have a gameshark, or a walkthrough written by someone with a gameshark - what you get is a weighted crapshoot. The system is too inconsistent and haphazard to give the player a real choice. There is no point in using the dialogue system as a basis for validating a given interpretation.
Something else I don't understand: why Nomura is being called a troll. (This isn't the first thread I've seen it in.) I don't think being inconsistent is trolling. Did I miss something? Is he really trying to piss people off, or is he maybe just trying too hard to please everyone?
Is the best quote of the thread. I've never understood why so much time and effort is wasted justifying wildly inconsistent interpretations of Cloud's behavior toward the main heroines.
It's impossible to for me to tell what exactly's been covered/asked/answered/rebutted
but
I've never understood why the FF7 date mechanics are cited as proof of player choice. You don't really get to pick who Cloud dates. You can't, because you really have no idea exactly how much affection is going to be doled out for a given event. How am I supposed to know that Aerith gets +10 for being in my party when I fight Dyne? Or that Tifa only gets +3 for the exact same event (which has fuck all to do with romance anyway)?
Answer: you don't, and you can't, because the game doesn't tell you. Unless you know the exact affection value given by each choice - meaning you have a gameshark, or a walkthrough written by someone with a gameshark - what you get is a weighted crapshoot. The system is too inconsistent and haphazard to give the player a real choice. There is no point in using the dialogue system as a basis for validating a given interpretation.
Something else I don't understand: why Nomura is being called a troll. (This isn't the first thread I've seen it in.) I don't think being inconsistent is trolling. Did I miss something? Is he really trying to piss people off, or is he maybe just trying too hard to please everyone?
And finally,
Is the best quote of the thread. I've never understood why so much time and effort is wasted justifying wildly inconsistent interpretations of Cloud's behavior toward the main heroines.
Actually if you are just simply curious about the game's Date Mechanics, the Final Fantasy Wiki actually does have an article on the Date Mechanics of FFVII and does give all the dialogue and answers and the affects they have on Aerith's, Tifa's, Yuffie's, and Barret's Hidden Value Points: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Date_Mechanics
And another interesting fact in the article mentions (which I did know before):
It has been reported that the date mechanics also affect a scene later in the game, involving Tifa and Cloud under the Highwind, but this is an error and the results of this scene are dependent on a different value attached only to Tifa, which is modified by her usage in combat throughout the game.
That's not what Nomura says--ever. He has said: the answers are there. He has said that he likes players to come up with their own ideas on how to get the answers--NOT get their own answers. That's hugely different. And he has said he wants the players to speculate on the things they DON'T show and tell us. He has never ever ever said that there are no answers or that all interpretations are valid. Not once.
Cloud and Tifa are never definitively shown as, or said to be, a romantic couple in the games or films. He's never retracted these statements, never said they weren't true. He wants us to enjoy Final Fantasy VII in our own way. If we enjoy it seeing Cloud and Aerith where you see Cloud and Tifa, we have that right. He's never said we don't. He's said we do. Therefore, it's still open. Boom shakalaka.
And while I can't speak for everyone in this thread--I most certainly believe Cloud x Tifa to be canon. What I don't believe is that SE needs to press-release spell it out for us. I believe the compilation narrative is explicit and straight forward enough to determine and clarify an outcome. The desire for SE to state "Cloud and Tifa are a couple" when all evidence already points to this fact is silly.
It's your interpretation of those facts that gave you that idea. You aren't right or wrong for interpreting it that way.
Why would FFVII be the exception to the standard. Did they release a statement for any other couple? Not to mention that, yes, in fact, SE (via Nojima) has said that Cloud and Tifa are together. Some people (unreasonably and grasping at straws) state that he is referring to location... **sigh** So yeah, they have said it, but some people don't want to hear it.
He was. Because when he referred to them being together in that time period, Nomura also stated that he didn't know if they were in a relationship. Nojima wrote the story, but Nomura knows as much as he does. If he didn't know, it wasn't canon then.
And every context of his statement refers to places, so that isn't really us not wanting to hear it.
Without specifying that there are even alternative versions in most cases... that kind of null and voids their optional happenings, and as has been pointed out a good dozen times, optional doesn't negate a canon version. Vincent and Yuffie ARE members of AVALANCHE, no matter how you play the game.
The whole quote is in regards to KH. It's been used and abused and twisted by Anastar and other Cleriths on more than one occasion, so yeah, it's a bit of a peeve of mine to see it being used to suggest 'Nomura says there are LTD options' when he's not even talking about FFVII. Misusing quotes happens. Lying offends me, yes.
I don't think the quote is misused, because he was talking about how he feels towards Cloud's character, that he doesn't want to actually say yes he is like this. But I am sorry I offended you.
Most of us do, and most of us find it irrelevant to the LTD.
It isn't irrelevant when we're talking about Cloud, I don't think.
That lacks any form of substantial proof. Lots of speculation and removing and reworking established canon to suit that need. He loves Tifa. He has since he was 9. I have yet to see any source citing that he STOPPED loving Tifa.
I have yet to see any source citing that he still does for sure.
It is stated IN THE GAME that she wants him around because she's worried about him, because he's acting so strange and HE'S NOT HIMSELF. And it is also stated that she is CONFUSED by the fact that he knows things he should have NO WAY of knowing. She doubts HERSELF and her memories. So, on top of sorting out a shitload of mixed emotions about Cloud, she's trying to figure out if what she recalls is even right.
Also, Cid flat out says that the way Cloud talked and acted and moved was off. Aerith wasn't the only person that figured out the boy was not okay.
Sorry. If there was one person who is most credited as knowing, it was Aerith. I'm saying that because by the start of the game, she didn't know him at all. So when he said Tifa had to know him well enough to know he wasn't being himself, I'm saying Aerith knew from observation.
That is not younger Cloud. That is CLOUD'S subconscious. That IS Cloud.
See, there actually is something that should be stopping you from believing in different endings for the LTD. After Q's experiment, I saw only (I think) two quotes that state Cloud even COULD have wound up with Aerith. That is still not equivalent to the Cloti evidence, and you're still having to bend over backwards to see a "open to interpretation" statement that isn't there.
for the second and third sentences above, just stop. The very presence of a debate does not bloody well validate both positions. I've seen and participated in debates where neither side even believed in their position, true. Debate teams, for instance, do just research whatever side they're assigned and debate for the sake of debating. But again, the mere fact that an issue is being debated is not in any way proof that both sides are valid. It lets us know there is another side, yes. The evidence being put forth still shows your position to be wrong.
And for the record, I for one wouldn't even be here if I didn't believe there is a canon outcome, and one that has been more than spelled out enough to recognize. I'd call that trolling, if anyone here is doing such a thing.
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry. That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
But again, the Aerith date is irrelevant to the FTOIL page
Ok, so you're able to accept that Revan was a dude with dude parts for the above stated reason. Then if you will open your eyes and accept the impact the HAHW scene had on the continuing narrative, then you should by all rights accept it just the same.
What definite proof do you have that the HAHW scene had those impacts, that the low affection couldn't have too?
When is that statement supposed to have been made, in terms of the original games time line? And at any rate, he's already been fighting side by side with Tifa, and they KNOW they're friends.
Well, Cloud thinking that he is suddenly not alone says he must not have felt that way.
Barret gave Cloud a convenient excuse to stay while still playing his douchey Ex-SOLDIER role for himself. It was clear it was the promise that actually stopped him from waltzing right out the door.
But the guilt and shame are the only feelings that are substantiated by the evidence, and evidence is being demanded. You cannot support your answer, so your answer is not good enough. That is how this works.
I thought he said he wasn't going to go into his views.
BWAHAHAHAHA! No, really? So show me and everyone else this "enough" that you have please. Cause so far you haven't been able to show evidence to support jack shit.
If you're already laughing at it, probably I shouldn't bother..
Then substantiate it being a love thing, if you please. Or, since I already know you cannot genuinely do that, you might try examining other options. Like concession of the point.
Oh, and this is a good example of you ignoring context. Whether you provide the whole quote or not, its pretty clear YOU are putting all the emphasis on the portion you DID quote. Thus not getting the full context.
I don't think the quote is misused, because he was talking about how he feels towards Cloud's character, that he doesn't want to actually say yes he is like this. But I am sorry I offended you.
It isn't irrelevant when we're talking about Cloud, I don't think.
And KH Cloud is exactly the same character as FF Cloud, right? Its not like his history and motivations are almost entirely different from the Cloud we know from the Compilation or anything. Except yeah, that's not true at all and KH has no more place here than the ridiculous FFVII commercial.
I have yet to see any source citing that he still does for sure.
Another case of squinching your eyes good and tightly shut until it goes away, as far as I can see. The sources are most definitely there.
Sorry. If there was one person who is most credited as knowing, it was Aerith. I'm saying that because by the start of the game, she didn't know him at all. So when he said Tifa had to know him well enough to know he wasn't being himself, I'm saying Aerith knew from observation.
Same difference really. Harry has been confirmed to wind up with Ginny, while Hermione is confirmed to end up with Ron. Cloud has been confirmed to end up with Tifa while Aerith winds up with Zack dead. Harry/Ginny and Cloud/Tifa even have the symmetry of living together and having kids going for them to help seal the analogy. So yeah, this works pretty well.
Cloud/Aerith and Harry/Hermione are both fun fan-ships. They are not the official ships being sailed, and to claim otherwise is still incorrect and dishonest.
A "Cloud definitely loves Tifa" statement isn't there.
Cloud is shown with Tifa there. The Aerith picture is entirely irrelevant to the issue discussed on the page. She is not even mentioned by name on the page.
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry.
I'm pretty sure that name was chosen because it was accurate. Because in addition to the tons of evidence already supporting Cloti, that was pretty much the last nail in the debate's coffin.
Just to be safe, let's ask. Why was the title "The LTD is Over" chosen for the article describing the translation of the FTOIL page?
Now, clearly some people just do not give up and refuse to see that particular coffin nail. But I never thought the title was chosen to aggravate or inflame anyone, and I find it somewhat interesting that anyone came to that conclusion.
That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
Glad we at least agree that such would be trolling. You have now admitted to accusing everyone arguing the position that Cloti is canon of trolling, btw, in that you expressed a belief that we do not actually believe it. Have fun with that.
I've already expressed my view on why Aerith's date scene was chosen for the blurb on the page about the date mechanics. They do not bear repeating yet again. Either way, it doesn't matter why it is there. The real meat of the page, where said page relates to this LTD, is all Cloud and Tifa.
Still vaguely confused, since I remember this being a direct choice you made. Not something determined by affection mechanics and what-not. So unless I am mistaken about what you're referring to... what?
What definite proof do you have that the HAHW scene had those impacts, that the low affection couldn't have too?
Do I really have to spell all this out again? I know Tres, Ryu, FHS, and myself have ALL gone over how the LA scene is invalidated, in many, many ways. How it makes no sense from a narrative perspective.
When was the last time an apathetic scene led directly into the involved characters belonging together? Living as a family and raising kids together? Being able to succeed because the man has the woman in a way that is different from before?
I'm ripping off Ryu again: Embrace parsimony.
Well, Cloud thinking that he is suddenly not alone says he must not have felt that way.
I note you did not answer my question concerning the time frame of the quote you displayed within the narrative.
But, no matter. I'll continue assuming it occurred after the HW scene. How did an apathetic and short conversation lead to him suddenly feeling he's less alone than he was again? It doesn't. Now put that quote with the HA version. Suddenly Cloud is not just fighting with his friends by his side. Now he has LOVE. I've felt alone when my friends were beside me. Someone you love is just a bit different. Ergo, the quote you tossed out does not support your position since the LA version would lead to no such thing. If anything, it fits with the HA version.
You've already admitted Aerith is not alone here. Zack, Cloud's mom, even Jessie. Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt since she was the only one of those he had directly placed under his protection. It doesn't make her a super-special snowflake of romantic intentions.
He said he TRIED NOT TO when writing the story. Then gave a self-deprecating laugh that indicates he failed. As if it wasn't obvious enough what the living situation at Cloud and Tifa's place is, that's a pretty good indicator right there.
If you're already laughing at it, probably I shouldn't bother.
No what? No you will not substantiate your claim? Cause that ship has already sailed multiple times, despite your efforts to make facts into opinions and opinions into facts. Or do you mean no you will not concede? Cause I knew it wouldn't be that easy.
On the subject of quote mining, to fix means to stop. And that's all I ask on the subject. Context is important, stop excising it from your quotes and we'll all be happier.
We're told feelings of desire happen in one version.
It's your interpretation of those facts that gave you that idea. You aren't right or wrong for interpreting it that way.
He was. Because when he referred to them being together in that time period, Nomura also stated that he didn't know if they were in a relationship. Nojima wrote the story, but Nomura knows as much as he does. If he didn't know, it wasn't canon then.
And every context of his statement refers to places, so that isn't really us not wanting to hear it.
It specified it in the UO's. They shouldn't need to make a press release reminding us there are other versions
And yes, because they're in Advent Children.
I don't think the quote is misused, because he was talking about how he feels towards Cloud's character, that he doesn't want to actually say yes he is like this. But I am sorry I offended you.
It isn't irrelevant when we're talking about Cloud, I don't think.
I have yet to see any source citing that he still does for sure.
Sorry. If there was one person who is most credited as knowing, it was Aerith. I'm saying that because by the start of the game, she didn't know him at all. So when he said Tifa had to know him well enough to know he wasn't being himself, I'm saying Aerith knew from observation.
His younger self, who knew all of the things he was forgetting.
Like I said.. I've found a different answer.
Let them.
A "Cloud definitely loves Tifa" statement isn't there.
I think both of our interpretations are.
Cloud is shown with two girls there. Why is that?
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry. That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
Then why is it there?
Who travels with you at the Gold Saucer.
What definite proof do you have that the HAHW scene had those impacts, that the low affection couldn't have too?
Well, Cloud thinking that he is suddenly not alone says he must not have felt that way.
Clear to you.
Guilt and shame brought on by not being able to protect people he cares about. And he cares about Aerith.
Luluuuu
Mmkay.
I thought he said he wasn't going to go into his views.
If you're already laughing at it, probably I shouldn't bother..
No.
Fine. I'll fix this from now on.
We're told feelings of desire happen in one version.
But facts can be interpreted incorrectly (if they could not, nothing could ever be agreed upon in science or general debates or be formed into theory), and neither of the creators are saying that all interpretations are correct or valid.
And the "younger Cloud" was not the literal younger Cloud, it was a representation of his subconscious, meaning that Cloud himself (not his "younger self") had the knowledge but it was blocked to him.
And like Tifa had the advantage of knowing that Cloud was "off" because she knew him from childhood, Aerith had the the advantage of already knowing Zack well, so if someone who she did not know before enters her life displaying many of the same traits that Zack displayed figuring that said person is "off" would be pretty easy. Both Tifa and Aerith have advantages in figuring that something is "off" with Cloud. So perhaps we should be most impressed by Cid's deducitve powers.
But the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania did confirm the HA Highwind scene to be the canon version.
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry. That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
Okay, people are taking that article way too seriously, lol. It's just an article. It's well written - some people here don't even agree with it, but still appreciate it. And time and time again it's been said you CAN create a Clerith based article if you want and have it front paged....why are there still complaints about this?
^wait... are you mistaking Tres' LTD analysis with the "LTD is over" by Ryu? Or maybe I'm just helluva lot confused. Besides, haven't MotA made a Clerith article last year? IIRC, it was even posted in the front page. Just sayin'. Really people, TLS is NOT a large Cloti conspiracy or maybe it is.
I was referring to the story summaries where you say the HA HW scene is used. The summary you've included here:
...
That's the Deviation page specified at the top of the Clerith date picture on the FTOIL page. That's not the story summary you keep referring to when you say that the HA HW scene is used.
So, you are referring to the story summary from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario then? The date's place in that page is what I just quoted from. There are no "deviation pages" per se -- just little sections in the sidebars of the story summary.
Unless you're talking about the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's story summary where the screenshot from the high affection version is used? In which case I addressed that in the post you responded to as well:
I said:
Which story summary? The 10th AU's story summary doesn't show any of them. It just mentions Cait Sith stealing the Keystone at the Gold Saucer and giving it to Tseng.
Nooo, not really. The text describing said picture doesn't even mention Aerith. It mentions Cloud, yeah, but it goes out of its way to mention that several characters can join him for that event.
Again, it's not representing Clerith there. Just an amorphous scene in which other characters express their feelings (Cloud doesn't do any expressing of his own regardless of who joins him).
Anastar said:
That doesn't contradict my previous questions. Let me put it this way: why would SE show ANY picture other than the HA HW scene on the FTOIL page if they intended Cloti to be canon?
Because all the scenes featured from the various games are moments of romantic revelation. Despite the optional nature of who goes on the date with Cloud, the gondola ride is a moment of romantic revelation.
Anastar said:
As I've pointed out before, FFVII is the ONLY game with two pictures on the page showing the main hero with two different girls. The page numbers at the top of BOTH pictures specifies that BOTH scenes are optional.
The "For the One I Love" page itself only goes out of its way to focus on variability with the date. Its preoccupation in describing that scene is on the optional nature of it. With the Highwind scene, its focus is on describing a particular version.
Anastar said:
The picture of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is used in both the LA and HA versions. FFVII is the ONLY game where the screenshots are labeled with page numbers that specify that the scenes have deviations that depend on the character's affection level.
I've repeated this to you countless times: all of the scenes have the page number for where said scene shows up in their respective games' story summaries.
Anastar said:
That in itself says that SE is showing that Cloud can be in love with either girl.
No, it isn't. Where do you even see a quote that explains the player has such an option?
Anastar said:
If SE wanted to say that Cloud loves Tifa only, they would've put a pic of the HA HW scene with no deviation specified and no pic of Clerith on the FTOIL page.
There is no pic of Clerith (i.e. CloudxAerith). There's a picture from a date scene in which Cloud can miss Aerith coming onto him -- and the text describing it shows us that it's representing a scene of variability for who can come onto Cloud, rather than a scene specific to Cloud and Aerith.
Anastar said:
Actually, it doesn't say on his profile page that Cloud is oblivious to their intentions at that time. According to the profile's translation here:
You assume incorrectly. The pictures in the articles containing the 10th AU profile translations match the pictures in the profiles themselves. I have the book. It shows that picture.
And I say "at that time" because the timeframe featured in the picture is presumably a point of reference for when the text below it applies. Their respective dates with Cloud present Aerith being forthright and Tifa being demure.
Anastar said:
Now, it may be true that Cloud is "none the wiser to them" at the beginning of the date, but he obliviously learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date scene because SE says that Aerith tells him during the date:
During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
It says she voices her feelings if she's the date companion, sure -- but it doesn't specify that she actually is the date companion, nor that Cloud picked up on what she was trying to tell him.
Anastar said:
Like you said, Yuffie kisses Cloud during their date, so Cloud obliviously learns of Yuffie's interest in him during the date. Looks like Cloud learns of Aerith's interest in him during the Clerith date, too, since she tells him.
Yuffie isn't mentioned in the quote from Cloud's profile. You can't identify Yuffie as an exception to it and then try to apply the same exception to Aerith; not when Yuffie was never part of the quote to begin with.
Anastar said:
And you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There is absolutely no reason for SE to put a picture of any Date scene on the FTOIL page if all that SE wants to say is that Cloud loves Tifa.
IF SE was just trying to say that Cloti is canon, then a picture of the HA HW scene (specifically the HA scene, not a pic used in both the LA or HA versions) on the FTOIL page with no mention of deviation according to affection levels is enough.
And there is no mention of affection levels with regard to the Highwind scene on that page.
For that matter, I don't believe that would be enough for you, no -- not when the 10th AU story summary does use a screenshot specifically from the high affection version, and without the entire book mentioning the affection levels.
And why does it matter what version the screenshot used to represent the Highwind scene on the "For the One I Love" page is from? The text accompanying the screenshot is what's important.
Anastar said:
Instead, SE put a second picture of FFVII on the FTOIL page with a picture of Cloud with a different girl than Tifa. Why do that if all they want to say is that Cloud loves Tifa? There is absolutely no reason for the Date scene picture on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with who Cloud loves. Otherwise, why put the picture at all on a page about protagonists in love?
Given how many times you repeated this in a slightly different form within the same post, it almost sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.
By the way, you're contradicting yourself. Again.
You said that there's no reason to have the date scene featured unless it has to do with who Cloud loves -- but the outcome of the scene is determined by the affection mechanic. Which represents the rating of the other four characters' affection for Cloud.
So are you now arguing that the rating represents Cloud's affection instead? You were all too happy to agree that the rating represented Tifa's feelings when you attempted to twist the "mutual feelings" quotes about the Highwind scene into Cloud not having an interest in Tifa as a consequence of her lower rating.
Anastar said:
And why mention the deviation at all if it's not relevant to who Cloud loves? SE mentions the deviation because it IS relevant. It means that Cloti is optional.
Why mention going up the stairs of the Shin-Ra building vs. blasting through the lobby? Why mention that the Huge Materia can be claimed or lost? Why mention that the Turks can be fought in the tunnels of Midgar or made peace with?
Because it's thorough and those are options available in the story.
Anastar said:
And who are you to decide how I should think? I'll judge by my own standards, thank you.
Since you want to be snarky about it, your own standards are terribly inconsistent to begin with, and your standards for determining canon run counter to ... well, the actual meaning of the term. It's irrelevant what you say you require before accepting something as canon; the terms of the concept speak for themselves, and what you're insisting upon is not the totality of the rubric.
Anastar said:
And I honestly believe in my approach. If you are free to your opinion, then I should be free to my opinion.
Uh, yeah, I was saying I believe in the same approach. Read what people actually say, and grow up.
Anastar said:
If we both read the Old Testament, and you come to the conclusion that Catholicism is the proper faith while I come to the conclusion that Judaism is the proper faith, are you going to allow me to make my own conclusion? Or are you going to scream that I'm wrong and try to prove it until I finally convert?
That's not a situation we would ever find ourselves in for so many reasons. Terrible analogy.
By the way, it's probably going to depend on whose Old Testament we're using in the first place. If we're even calling it "the Old Testament" to begin with, us both going with Catholicism is the most likely outcome.
Anastar said:
Please note what you said in the second paragraph of your response:
"The point is, despite the official English translation of Case of Tifa going with "your room," that's not necessarily correct."
If it's not necessarily correct, then it's not necessarily incorrect, either - is it? It is indeed possible that she said, "your room", is it not?
My purpose in pointing this out was only ever to get you to stop insisting that Tifa definitely said "your room." I'm not trying to argue that she identified any specific room.
We're left to determine if the office is his room by examining the remaining evidence.
Anastar said:
There is a chair, mirror, and an open trunk. I thought at first glance before lightening the picture that the open trunk lid was a TV. I labeled them all in the following pic:
Just to reiterate: no chair, no mirror, no trunk (it's a toolbox).
Anastar said:
Then the same should apply to "koibito" in Case of Lifestream White. If Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and he is also hers, then that would point to a relationship. Or at least mutual feelings.
I have. That Johnny argument has been used seriously in the past, though (don't remember if it was by you; not saying it was), so I could only assume that's where you were going with it.
Anastar said:
If you ask me, we haven't seen that from Cloud towards Tifa, either. Interpretations differ.
We have seen romantic intentions from Cloud to Tifa, though -- even if you want to insist that it was only in the past (when he was a teenager) or that it's only optional (the high affection Highwind scene). That's still more than can be said about Barret and Tifa; and, quite ironically, more than can be said about Cloud and Aerith, but that's beside the most immediate point.
Anastar said:
Well, this quote from Vilaeth says otherwise:
Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud. Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
Yay for dishonest tactics. But you've already been thoroughly taken to task by Que for leaving out the rest of hito's quote, so I won't go there any further.
Anastar said:
First, I've never heard Aerith referred to as Cloud's "nakama".
Yes, you have. In the quote from me you're replying to I had just pointed out where it has happened! Holy fuck!
AGAIN:
Also, Aerith is called Cloud's nakama too. Off the top of my head, I know her Reunion Files profile calls her this. Seems like her 10th AU profile and the Dissidia Ultimania's "Link to the Original" section for FFVII does too.
However, if you're going to insist that a person can be a "nakama" and a "koibito" at the same time, and that Aerith is also called Cloud's "nakama", then there's only one conclusion - you're saying that Aerith could be Cloud's "koibito" as well as his "nakama".
When have I ever said otherwise? You were the one arguing that the two statuses are mutually exclusive.
You'd still be left needing to field a reference to Aerith being referred to as Cloud's koibito for that to even become a matter for discussion, though.
To tell you the truth, I don't think some of you guys honestly believe it's canon. The fact that we're having this conversation says you know there's another side.
Wait, what? There's more than one side in an evolution or civil rights debate as well, but that doesn't entail equal footing.
aerbear said:
I think summaries mean something a little different when it's about a story with options. I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened, but the way I see it is that they're placeholders. They can't skip these scenes, because even though they're changeable, they're parts of the story. So they put in one version.
But they can skip them (e.g. the date is glossed over in the 10th AU's story summary and they go straight to Cait Sith stealing the Keystone to pass off to Tseng; meanwhile the high affection Highwind scene is still featured), or they can make a point of going with a neutral presentation (as they tend to do with the date scene).
But I'll take your acceptance that "I guess it can reasonably be said that it's the one that happened" as complete agreement with me and end this here.
Kidding. Maybe. A little.
aerbear said:
They showed the Aerith date. I get that the description can apply to any of the party members, but her date was the one pictured. Like the high affection version, the Aerith date is the one cited, referenced and shown the most.
Oh, now there we agree. Aerith's date is absolutely referenced most. I'd also expect it to be the one canonized if they would ever stop playing silly with it. I don't know why they haven't just done it.
aerbear said:
The high affection version specifically would be extremely important. It would change their relationship.
You mean it might lead to Cloud telling Tifa he knows he can start a new life successfully this time because he has her with him in a different way than before?
aerbear said:
Remember this line from Dismantled I brought up? "Besides, I have Tifa at my side, I'm not fighting alone-- this is what Tifa taught me.
Cloud must have been feeling alone before, that he was fighting by himself, and Tifa is now helping him.
He doesn't say at what point he realized this, though. Certainly he must have known when Tifa and Barret stuck by him after he beat the shit out of Aerith, urging him to continue on even when he doubted himself and wanted them to leave him behind.
Certainly he must have known when Tifa stuck by him while he was comatose and helped him sort out the mess he'd become after falling into the Lifestream with him.
Certainly he must have known when he and Tifa ventured back to the surface into the welcoming, accepting, forgiving arms of the rest of AVALANCHE, to whom he confessed his illusions and weaknesses, but who looked to him for leadership again nonetheless.
aerbear said:
Furthermore, most of the game, I saw him as fairly indifferent towards her, not someone I'd imagine him living with or considering part of his family. So that scene definitely, the way I see it, effected their relationship for the better.
Of course it affected their relationship for the better, but you're reading of Cloud is inaccurate. He stayed with AVALANCHE after the first reactor mission for her, was going to make a mess of Wall Market for her, and said her opinion was the only one of relevance when Sephiroth was trying to shred his sanity.
It's not his younger self. The image of the younger Cloud is simply a representation of Cloud's subconscious -- it's not a form of him frozen in time from childhood.
Hell, the fact that it has the memories of events that happened during the Nibelheim incident (when Cloud was older than the form his subconscious took) shows that it's not.
aerbear said:
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry. That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
It has been reported that the date mechanics also affect a scene later in the game, involving Tifa and Cloud under the Highwind, but this is an error and the results of this scene are dependent on a different value attached only to Tifa, which is modified by her usage in combat throughout the game.
WTF? This isn't accurate. I've tried this out with a game editor thingy called Jenova. It IS the affection value that effects this. She needs 50 points or higher for the HA scene. Any less and you get the LA one.
Anastar wrote: The picture of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is used in both the LA and HA versions. FFVII is the ONLY game where the screenshots are labeled with page numbers that specify that the scenes have deviations that depend on the character's affection level.
Bolded part, Tres, she's not saying only FFVII has pages numbers linking to more info, she's saying that FFVII is the only one with the "more info" pages having deviations.
EDIT
Also
Question:
Square posting a picture of Aerith and Cloud on the date saying "This can happen one of four ways" on the FTOIL page = posting a picture of the Clerith date only and saying "the Clerith date is romantic." But Square posting a picture of the HA scene and saying, "This happened" in a story summary = this may or may not happen. ..
WTF? This isn't accurate. I've tried this out with a game editor thingy called Jenova. It IS the affection value that effects this. She needs 50 points or higher for the HA scene. Any less and you get the LA one.
Bolded part, Tres, she's not saying only FFVII has pages numbers linking to more info, she's saying that FFVII is the only one with the "more info" pages having deviations.
EDIT
Also
Question:
Square posting a picture of Aerith and Cloud on the date saying "This can happen one of four ways" on the FTOIL page = posting a picture of the Clerith date only and saying "this is romantic." But Square posting a picture of the HA scene and saying, "This happened" in a story summary = this may or may not happen. ..
. Seriously, don't do that. They aren't even the same in any analogous sense. It irritates the shit out of me when Ryu or Tres does it too. I understand the comparison, I do, but it's just silly. 
