The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Two questions that have not been answered:
What is Cloud and Aerith's "SPECIAL BOND" that SE is talking about?
What does SE mean when they say there, "SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING BETWEEN THEM"?

Evidence:
Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are "impressive" —->
Cloud thinks Aerith's smile is a "good purchase" —->
Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious feeling" —->
Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date —->
Cloud laughs for the first and only time in FFVII with Aerith [he is attracted to her personality] —->
Cloud being triggered into a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith's house —->
Cloud and Aerith sharing an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story —->
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him —->
Barret observes that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself —->
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met —->
Tifa is jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting in the Shinra jail cell—->
Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon —->
Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer —->
SE intentionally includes a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith's affinity that becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death —->
Cloud expresses a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII —->
SE says that Cloud is Aerith's "koibito" —->
SE includes a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in FFIX —->
SE makes Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress —->

When looking at the order and progression of events, it is NOT hard to see what this "SPECIAL BOND" is and what SE means when they say there seems to be "SOMETHING" between them.

 

[Dashell]

What does SE mean when they say there, "SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING BETWEEN THEM"?

they never actually said this, it was a mistranslation but I know you won't believe me so

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud and Aerith's special bond is FRIENDSHIP. Just like Zack and Cloud's Special Bond. Different from Cloud and Tifa's Special Bond. That Special Bond is Romantic.


Also, I for one, am never surprised at this debate getting stupider. I've been in vs debates before.

 

[Knuxson]

• 
  On disc 1 there is a love triangle where both Aerith and Tifa are attracted to Cloud. It is ambiguous how Cloud feels, although the writers do push Aerith and Cloud together during disc 1 for reasons I previously laid out. But he obviously did care about her deeply.

• 
  Aerith dies and shortly after Cloud regains his real self. He expresses to Tifa in the lifestream that he loved her since childhood. They emerge from the lifestream hand in hand (the shot, if you remember, where they are rising back up, which with the old graphics is a little harder to tell, but they are joined at the hands).

• 
  Before the final battle, Cloud and Tifa spend a final night together and, no matter which scene you get, wake up cuddled up to each other.
  

And then Cloud expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game despite the HAHW scene taking place. Cloud also admits after Aerith's death that he continues to think about Aerith frequently.

Ok? How does that mean he loves Aerith? Just because he wants to see her again and thinks about her? So, he basically told Tifa, "Sooo yeah, last night was great, but I still love Aerith, who is dead. Sorry bout' that." As Kittie said, Cloud would have to be one of the "biggest douchebags on this side of fiction." Kittie also brought up a great point. Why would Cloud live with Tifa if he didn't love her, given her feelings for him? Seems pretty messed up.

Cloud and Tifa got further in their relationship than Cloud and Aerith ever did. And, very significantly, the Highwind scene happens very close to the end of the game. It is the period on the end of the love story in the game. Plus, it would be dumb for that whole scene to be nullified by Cloud saying he wants to meet Aerith again. The Highwind scene was included by the writers at that point in the game for a reason.

How? Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her in AC. I guess their mutual feelings weren't that strong, after-all.

It is more nuanced than that. If you are talking about Case of Tifa, their relationship is struggling because of Cloud's survivor's guilt complex. She asks him if he loves her not because she necessarily doesn't know, but because she wants to be reassured. It is a fairly normal thing in relationships. Even if you KNOW the other person loves you, it is nice to be told that as reassurance.

There are multiple reasons why could have Cloud decided to rescue Tifa -- she's apart of AVALANCHE (the company Cloud's working for), or she's a childhood friend, or he wanted to let her know that he didn't die from the fall.

Cloud rescuing Aerith, after only having known her for a short while, tells us that Cloud already has strong feelings for her because he's willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met. A girl that he is attracted to both physically and personality-wise.

Well, Cloud also states he wants to rescue her because they drug her into that whole mess with Corneo and Sector 7, and she got captured while she was helping Marlene. He felt responsible for her predicament. I am not saying he didn't care about her too, but there were other elements at play.

 

[Dashell]

I have a desire to see my grandparents and my cat again when I die-.. holy cow I'm a sick fuck

 

[OniRaitei]

And then Cloud expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game despite the HAHW scene taking place.

I've always thought this argument was pretty funny. Given just how emo this guy gets, I'm sure he would have just ended it all if he so desperately wanted to see her. 2 years after the game, he has made no effort to bring himself closer to Aerith and the Promised Land. Instead, he is living with Tifa.

Cloud also admits after Aerith's death that he continues to think about Aerith frequently.

She was his friend and she died. Of course he thinks about her. So does the rest of the crew.

How? Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her in AC. I guess their mutual feelings weren't that strong, after-all.

You just said in your other post that Cloud loves both of them. You're flip-flopping again. Next you will tell me that Tifa doesn't love Cloud!

Irrelevant. If a husband died in war, does that stop his wife's love for her?

It is very relevant. Lifestream sequence, Highwind Scene, Cloud lives with Tifa, Cloud resolves his guilt in AC and moves the hell on. Aerith is dead.

 

[BlankBeat]

Cloud and Aerith's special bond is FRIENDSHIP. Just like Zack and Cloud's Special Bond. Different from Cloud and Tifa's Special Bond. That Special Bond is Romantic.

Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are "impressive" —->
Cloud thinks Aerith's smile is a "good purchase" —->
Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious feeling" —->
Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date —->
Cloud laughs for the first and only time in FFVII with Aerith [he is attracted to her personality] —->
Cloud is triggered into a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith's house —->
Cloud and Aerith sharing an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story —->
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him —->
Barret observes that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself —->
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met —->
Tifa is jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting in the Shinra jail cell—->
Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon —->
Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer —->
SE intentionally includes a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith's affinity that becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death —->
Cloud expresses a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII —->
Cloud visits Aerith's Church in Advent Children and Tifa's "complicated feelings" as a woman towards Aerith continue to this very day —->
SE says that Cloud is Aerith's "koibito" —->
SE includes a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in FFIX —->
SE makes Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress —->

Based on all of that, their special bond is clearly "friendship" -- LOL. Even SE doesn't think that their bond is only limited to friendship as evidenced by naming them Emperor/Empress and the FFIX cameo.

And why would Tifa be jealous of a special bond that only consisted of friendship?
And why would SE say that Cloud "wavers" between two love interests if he only felt a sense of friendship for Aerith?

To deny the mutual romantic feelings between Cloud and Aerith is to deny common sense and evidence SE has given us. Hell, Cloud and Aerith are even pictured on the FTOIL page.

 

[Lex]

To deny the mutual romantic feelings between Cloud and Aerith is to deny common sense and evidence SE has given us. Hell, Cloud and Aerith are even pictured on the FTOIL page.

I actually find it offensive that you would try to bring up the FTOIL page in favour of Clerith. You've sunk to a new low, but I fully expect you to continue sinking.

As usual, everything you've said bypasses logic in favour of ignorance and sheer hypocrisy. Aren't you tired of going around in circles? Why do you keep doing this to yourself? Why do you keep making the same disproven redundant arguments and intentionally twisting and misinterpreting the narrative?

It's seriously horrible, I'm not even exaggerating for effect. That a person would twist and fabricate and cherry-pick so much to the point of completely foregoing reason for such a prolonged period of time because they like the idea of a romantic couple in a video game genuinely worries me.

 

[OniRaitei]

Based on all of that, their special bond is clearly "friendship" -- LOL. Even SE doesn't think that their bond is only limited to friendship as evidenced by naming them Emperor/Empress and the FFIX cameo.

LOL! Did you really just do that?

You put so much stock in that Nomura quote and now you turn around and say that SE knows.

 

[BlankBeat]

Ok? How does that mean he loves Aerith? Just because he wants to see her again and thinks about her? So, he basically told Tifa, "Sooo yeah, last night was great, but I still love Aerith, who is dead. Sorry bout' that." As Kittie said, Cloud would have to be one of the "biggest douchebags on this side of fiction." Kittie also brought up a great point. Why would Cloud live with Tifa if he didn't love her, given her feelings for him? Seems pretty messed up.

Clearly Cloud is a bit of a douchebag as evidenced by how he treats Tifa after FFVII ends. In fact, the way he treats Tifa causes her to question if he loves her or not.

Furthermore, in a passage outlining Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship, it says that her "complicated" feelings toward Aerith (a woman who had built up a "special bond" with Cloud) continue to this very day, partially because she knows Cloud had been visiting Aerith's Church.

Cloud and Tifa got further in their relationship than Cloud and Aerith ever did. And, very significantly, the Highwind scene happens very close to the end of the game. It is the period on the end of the love story in the game. Plus, it would be dumb for that whole scene to be nullified by Cloud saying he wants to meet Aerith again. The Highwind scene was included by the writers at that point in the game for a reason.

Yes. They go further in one way: they both know they have mutual feelings for each other.

But my point is that just because Cloud and Aerith never *EXPRESS* mutual feelings, doesn't mean they didn't *HAVE* mutual feelings.

She asks him if he loves her not because she necessarily doesn't know, but because she wants to be reassured. It is a fairly normal thing in relationships. Even if you KNOW the other person loves you, it is nice to be told that as reassurance.

No one can say for certain exactly why Tifa decided to ask. But given Nomura's quote where he says he has "NO CLUE" if they are in a relationship after the HAHW scene, it means that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between them.

Well, Cloud also states he wants to rescue her because they drug her into that whole mess with Corneo and Sector 7, and she got captured while she was helping Marlene. He felt responsible for her predicament. I am not saying he didn't care about her too, but there were other elements at play.

Given the Cloud we were introduced to at the beginning of the game, would he have felt responsible for Aerith's predicament? Only after spending time with Aerith did he eventually laugh and start to act differently -- Barret even observes this change.

--------------------

She was his friend and she died. Of course he thinks about her. So does the rest of the crew.

SE says Cloud wavers between two romantic interests. Aerith is not just a friend.

You just said in your other post that Cloud loves both of them. You're flip-flopping again. Next you will tell me that Tifa doesn't love Cloud!

Loving someone doesn't mean a relationship necessarily works out with them. Even Nomura agrees with that.

--------------------

I actually find it offensive that you would try to bring up the FTOIL page in favour of Clerith. You've sunk to a new low, but I fully expect you to continue sinking.

Of the love triangles on SE’s “For The One I Love Page” (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance (see the first row of images). Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

As usual, everything you've said bypasses logic in favour of ignorance and sheer hypocrisy. Aren't you tired of going around in circles? Why do you keep doing this to yourself? Why do you keep making the same disproven redundant arguments and intentionally twisting and misinterpreting the narrative?

It's seriously horrible, I'm not even exaggerating for effect. That a person would twist and fabricate and cherry-pick so much to the point of completely foregoing reason for such a prolonged period of time because they like the idea of a romantic couple in a video game genuinely worries me.

Emperor Cloud and Empress Aerith find this post very, very rude!

 

[Unlucky]

BlankBeat.. please tell us you're a troll?

 

[BlankBeat]

BlankBeat.. please tell us you're a troll?

+ = <3

 

[Unlucky]

+

= </3

 

[OniRaitei]

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

The title is "For the One I Love." Not "the Two," or "the Ones."

Aerith is dead, so that leaves only one other person. Tifa.

Aerith has just been invalidated.

 

[null]

Also, I for one, am never surprised at this debate getting stupider. I've been in vs debates before.

I actually gave up this thread once I discovered Vs threads. There is no greater fix for a stupid debate addiction than Goku vs Luke Skywalker.

 

[BlankBeat]

The title is "For the One I Love." Not "the Two," or "the Ones."

Aerith is dead, so that leaves only one other person. Tifa.

Aerith has just been invalidated.

The FFVII love triangle is the exception to the rule, especially considering Cloud Strife is the only hero pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

Oh and...given that this is FINAL FANTASY, death does not always prevent love from continuing (ie: Tidus x Yuna). Furthermore, some characters, such as Vincent, decide to live a life alone instead of moving on from their one-true-love.

Cloud having Aerith's flowers on his desk and riding around a flower field during the end of AC/C suggests SE may be incorporating the theme of love beyond death.

But even if Cloud moves on with Tifa (I don't think he does and Nomura verifies my position), but EVEN IF Cloud did move on with Tifa, he can still possess a romantic love for Aerith. For example, if a wife lost a husband in war and then married again, it would be very reasonable for her to always have a love for her first husband.

OH and...

"The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback

One day Cloud will reunite with Aerith.

 

[Dashell]

The title is "For the One I Love." Not "the Two," or "the Ones."

Aerith is dead, so that leaves only one other person. Tifa.

Aerith has just been invalidated.

One thing I will agree wit at Blank beat said is that the LTD is about who Cloud loves. He caan still love Aerith even if she's dead. Screaming Aeriths dead LTD OVAH is almost condescending to those who've lost loved ones

 

[Dashell]

"The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet."[/I] ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback.

Cause he's not dead yet, idgi

 

[BlankBeat]

Cause he's not dead yet, idgi

People argue all the time that Zack and Aerith are together again in the lifestream. What is to stop Cloud and Aerith from doing the same?

 

[BlankBeat]

One thing I will agree wit at Blank beat said is that the LTD is about who Cloud loves. He caan still love Aerith even if she's dead. Screaming Aeriths dead LTD OVAH is almost condescending to those who've lost loved ones

Thanks.

IF the primary question in the LTD is who does Cloud love, I believe it is clear that Cloud can possess love for both Aerith and Tifa.

But just because Cloud and Aerith never express mutual feelings, doesn't mean they didn't have them.

And just because Cloud and Tifa DO express mutual feelings, doesn't mean they are in a romantic relationship.

And just because Aerith is dead, doesn't mean Cloud doesn't continue to love her.

Therefore, the answer to the LTD is that both pairings are canon in different ways and for different reasons.

 

[Rhapsody]

Sorry for interrupting but I just wanted to quickly comment on this bit:

I have a desire to see my grandparents and my cat again when I die-.. holy cow I'm a sick fuck

Just out of curiosity, what does "dying" have to do with the Promised Land? I don't believe Cloud died when he found his Promised Land at the end of AC/ACC? Or am I wrong?

In general, it's a little different in Cloud's case. I'm sure you already knew that though. After all, he is associating his Promised Land(supreme happiness) with meeting and finding a woman who happens to hold romantic feelings for him. Not sure whether you would or wouldn't tie your highest degree of happiness to meeting your dead cat or grandparents but I'm assuming neither of them would be involved in an LT concerning you...so all this isn't exactly comparable, right? Just checking.

 

[Dashell]

Sorry for interrupting but I just wanted to quickly comment on this bit:



Just out of curiosity, what does "dying" have to do with the Promised Land? I don't believe Cloud died when he found his Promised Land at the end of AC/ACC? Or am I wrong?

In general, it's a little different in Cloud's case. I'm sure you already knew that though. After all, he is associating his Promised Land(supreme happiness) with meeting and finding a woman who happens to hold romantic feelings for him. Not sure whether you would or wouldn't tie your highest degree of happiness to meeting your dead cat or grandparents but I'm assuming neither of them would be involved in an LT concerning you...so all this isn't exactly comparable, right? Just checking.

... Shroudy?

Srsly though, fair point, bit I don't think clouds wants to see Aeritth for romantic reasons necessarly... and on god making posts on this tablet sucks

 

[OniRaitei]

Oh and...given that this is FINAL FANTASY, death does not always prevent love from continuing (ie: Tidus x Yuna).

Tidus never died. Nor did he have any competition for Yuna's affections. Also, if you don't get the perfect ending, Yuna moves on.

Furthermore, some characters, such as Vincent, decide to live a life alone instead of moving on from their one-true-love.

Cloud clearly does not follow this example.

Cloud having Aerith's flowers on his desk and riding around a flower field during the end of AC/C suggests SE may be incorporating the theme of love beyond death.

That is remembrance, not romance.

OH and...

"The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback

Oh and the rest of the quote:

"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong."

Cloud wanted absolution, not romance. There are no romantic undertones in that quote that support you.

One day Cloud will reunite with Aerith.

And they will have a picnic in the Promised Land with the rest of the gang. So what?

 

[Dashell]

Uhm Tidus did die... when he disappeared he died, its why he was on the farplane

 

[OniRaitei]

Uhm Tidus did die... when he disappeared he died, its why he was on the farplane

Tidus was a dream. He was never alive and never died.