Strangelove said:
This is just something you've decided arbitrarily. I think, to a reasonable people, if you were to be discussing a love triangle you would be looking to find out how it ends.
SE has not told us how it ends.
Strangelove said:
No, you're putting words in Nomura's mouth (like you rewrote quotes from the game to suit what you want it to say). He said he doesn't care about romantic relationships because characters. It was two sentences above the quote you tried to use. (But I understand not knowing, since all people do is take one little line from something and spread it around then mislabel it.)
“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer
After the HAHW scene takes place, Nomura doesn't have a clue if they are in a relationship. Therefore, the HAHW scene isn't even enough evidence to even give Nomura a clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.
Strangelove said:
I don't disagree with Cloud being attracted to Aerith. I just don't agree that it got a chance to lead anywhere (no searching flower fields for Aerith physically manifesting and no soul bonding or anything like that).
This attraction led Cloud and Aerith to having a special bond, according to SE.
This attraction also led to Cloud wanting to meet Aerith in his supreme place of happiness.
Strangelove said:
Why would you write this reply to my post? I agreed with this.
I'm glad you agree that Tifa's jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's "special bond", in conjunction with the "wavers" quote, tells us that Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" is romantic.
Strangelove said:
It doesn't really indicate that there has been a change.
What do you think triggers Cloud into having that flashback in Aerith's house? I believe it should be obvious that Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback because he had just met Aerith -- a woman he is attracted to ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase", etc.)
Strangelove said:
It lasts seconds and is then put aside for the Wallmarket side quest. Forefront? That makes it sound like it takes a major focus at that point. It doesn't, and a lot of it was about Zack. Aerith was about to leave at that point, without sounding like she thought she would meet Cloud again (she said it was nice to meet him, no 'see you soon' or even a request to). If it hadn't have been for Tifa appearing she would have gone home and Cloud would have gone to Seventh Heaven. That's not something that sounds like the 'forefront of the story'. It might bring it up, but it's not at the forefront when the next part of the story immediately following involves going to rescue Tifa and then stop the plate from being dropped on sector 7.
You'd argue it is intimate, of course. But that's your spin on it, in your list that's meant to be hard cold fact. Again, it's your choice of words to put things in a light that suits what you want it mean.
Remember that this is video game world. Time spent on something in video game world is never equal to what would be spent on it in real life.
I believe it is significant that SE decided to have Cloud and Aerith share an intimate moment at the park before rescuing Tifa. Why else was this included if not to show Cloud and Aerith growing closer?
In addition, by Aerith bringing up her previous boyfriend, *IT DID* bring romantic relationships to the forefront of the story during their moment in the park. Why is that such a hard statement for you to accept? It seems like a very straightforward, common sense take on why SE decided to include that moment in the game.
Strangelove said:
That doesn't mean Cloud changed. Barret re-evaluated his take on Cloud.
SE decided to have Barret observe this change for a reason. Do you disagree with Barret's observation?
Strangelove said:
Again, you also changed the wording to suit your needs. He said that Cloud will sometimes 'fight for other people'. That isn't the same as 'Aerith is the first person he cared about'. Is it really so difficult to just use the words that were actually used? That's usually a good way to back up things like this.
The overall point is still the same. Aerith is the first person Cloud is willing to fight for besides himself. That is significant.
Again -- SE decided to have Barret observe this for a reason (ie: to highlight Cloud and Aerith's "special bond")
Strangelove said:
Okay, clearly you don't pick up on when things are being exaggerated. But that's not what Cloud says.
“But I'm…we're here for you, right?”
That's the line in the game. But you took that and made it into "I will always be there for you" instead. Because it sounds better for your purpose. You twisted the game's dialogue into something else.
No. I did not twist the dialogue. Cloud initially started to say that HE was there for Aerith, but for whatever reason, changed it to, "we're here for you." Regardless of which one he said, he is telling Aerith that he will be there for her. Whether he is there for her by himself, or he is there for her alongside everyone else, he is still telling Aerith that he is there for her.
Strangelove said:
They go on a date. Where Cloud makes no statement of any kind about his feelings for Aerith. The date itself (in any version) wasn't showing much romantic intention from Cloud.
Maybe Cloud is shy? But simply agreeing to go on the date in the first place shows romantic attraction.
Strangelove said:
It's not about Cait Sith being unreliable, that's not what I was talking about. It's about the 'wedding prediction' translation being faulty. Why did you think I brought translations to the forefront of the discussion?
クラウドとエアリスの結婚式を期待するようなケット・シーのセリフが、ますますせつなさをかき立てる。
That doesn't say he 'predicts' a wedding. It says his dialogue seems to expect or hope for Cloud and Aerith's wedding.
So SE decided to have Cait Sith except or hope for Cloud and Aerith's wedding. My overall point still stands even with that change.
Strangelove said:
It doesn't have that effect the way it is? The point is that he says things will be wonderful for them, but then Aerith dies and Cloud loses his mind.
Right. SE is setting Cloud and Aerith up to be a romantic couple through Cait Sith.
Strangelove said:
That sounds horribly dismissive as to how much a mere 'friend' can mean to people.
I think it is only logical that someone would be more upset if a girlfriend/boyfriend died as opposed to a friend. Obviously there are exception to that rule, but I'd say generally, when you lose someone who you were romantically connected to, your reaction to their death would be more significant.
Strangelove said:
This is a work of fiction. Someone had to create every part of it, and usually for a reason.
This is the end of this particular work of fiction. The end. There were no sequels back then, this was it. The story's final.
So in the final climactic moments of the story, they have Cloud state his intention to be with his true love...... and Tifa decides to tag along. No, not Tifa. The people writing it decided that the way to end this love story was to have the other woman invite herself along. No comment or objection from Cloud. Nothing.
That is awful writing. Where you are meant to bring things to a close, you have just made a pig's ear of the whole thing. It makes absolutely no sense. Is this meant to be a tragic end for Tifa? Can you honestly look at what you just wrote and think it sounds write? That the closure of Tifa's story is that she is a pathetic character clinging on to Cloud even as he reveals his desire to go to another woman? Having you actually given the notion you're pushing any thought at all?
When Cloud see's Aerith at the end of the game, he says, "
I think
I can meet her... there"
Cloud mentions nothing about Tifa going with him. Therefore, Tifa saying she wants to go doesn't mean Cloud wants her to go, nor does it mean that Cloud agrees that she should go. Given the imagery in AC, I think Cloud wants to meet Aerith without Tifa.
I also think SE was leaving the ending ambiguous. I don't think they were necessarily giving us a definitive answer.
PS: I'll have to get to the rest of your response when I find the time. I found most of it a re-hashing of what we've already been over.
