The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Blankbeat, what can you say about the fact that Tifa is willing to risk her life for Aerith whom she barely knew? Isn't that more admirable that Cloud because Tifa isn't attracted to her or anything?

You are forgetting that this is video game world. Cloud is the main character and he is obviously the "decider" in this game. Wherever he goes, the party follows.

But sure, it says that Tifa is an awesome character. However, without Cloud initially making the decision to save Aerith, would Tifa have done it on her own? Probably not.

 

[Danseru-kun]

You are forgetting that this is video game world. Cloud is the main character and he is obviously the "decider" in this game. Wherever he goes, the party follows.

But sure, it says that Tifa is an awesome character. However, without Cloud initially making the decision to save Aerith, would Tifa have done it on her own? Probably not.

Oh I remember at the second reactor mission, it was Cloud's decision that Tifa joins the party. He asked "Why did you come anyway?" just because.

Yes this is true. After meeting Aerith, Cloud took her to her home and when she was apparently asleep, he decided to leave her despite agreeing to the date. Aerith was persistent, even if Cloud decided to escape from her house, she follows.

So when Aerith is taken by Tseng and Tifa was calling to her and trying to reach out to her it's Cloud's decision!

Ah yes! I also remember that when Cloud was handing Sephiroth the Black Materia his whole party is cheering from the background, entirely supportive of him.

: Oh master Sephiroth, here's the Black Materia, please destroy the world!
: Oh yesss yesss

 

[BlankBeat]

After meeting Aerith, Cloud took her to her home and when she was apparently asleep, he decided to leave her despite agreeing to the date. Aerith was persistent, even if Cloud decided to escape from her house, she follows.

 

[OniRaitei]

Then, Barret comments on how Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself. Given the exchanges Cloud and Barret had during the beginning of the game, I can't help but think this observation was INTENTIONAL on SE's part.

SE knew that Cloud rescued Tifa, yet they still wanted the gamer to hear Barret's observation about how Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself.

Did you read this before posting? Let me recap it for you: You say SE knows that Cloud rescued Tifa and cares for someone besides himself. Then you say SE wants to place emphasis on an observation by Barret saying that Aerith is the first person Cloud cares about when the player knows that Cloud cares about Tifa and has already rescued her? Do you see the problem with your logic?

I think perhaps you should stop trying to put words in SE's mouth.

But yes, the dialogue was intentional. It was meant as a filler for the time it takes the player to climb all the stairs of Shinra HQ. Also, as others have said, it is optional. If you break in through the front door of Shinra HQ, you don't even get this dialogue.

To me, that is significant.

But of course!

The rest of your post has been posted so many times, and then annihilated just as many times, so I'm not even going to address it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

So now it's Elmyra's decision and not Cloud's? I see you wanna prove that Cloud's decision to leave Aerith is because of the mother. Fair fair, until later he says this:

Aerith "The gate to Sector 7's in there."
Cloud "Thanks. I guess this is goodbye. You gonna be all right going home?"

Besides that point. Tifa decided to join Cloud's party in the 2nd reactor mission, it wasn't Cloud's decision. The same way it's her decision to join the rescue mission at Shinra HQ for a woman she barely knew.

 

[BlankBeat]

Did you read this before posting? Let me recap it for you: SE knows that Cloud rescued Tifa and cares for someone besides himself. Then you say SE wants to place emphasis on an observation by Barret saying that Aerith is the first person Cloud cares about when the player knows that Cloud cares about Tifa and has already rescued her? Do you see the problem with your logic?

That's my whole point -- SE doesn't view Cloud saving Tifa as significant proof of him caring for someone else, which is why they still included Barret's observation.

Cloud and Barret had several exchanges regarding Cloud's apathy. That was a very constant back-and-forth between them during the beginning of the game. So to have Barret observe a change in Cloud's apathetic behavior, and have him associate that change with Aerith, is very significant.

To be honest, I'm not surprised people here are trying to dismiss and downplay Barret's observation. But the fact is, SE included it and therefore, it is relevant to this discussion. It's not as though Cloud responded to Barret, "No, I rescued Tifa, too!" -- but that's really besides the point

 

[BlankBeat]

So now it's Elmyra's decision and not Cloud's? I see you wanna prove that Cloud's decision to leave Aerith is because of the mother. Fair fair, until later he says this:

Aerith "The gate to Sector 7's in there."
Cloud "Thanks. I guess this is goodbye. You gonna be all right going home?"

1. Elmyra's request that Cloud leave in the middle of the night obviously played a role in Cloud's decision to leave Aerith.
2. Why wouldn't Cloud continue to try to follow Elmyra's request when Aerith finds him in the morning?
3. Cloud expresses care for Aerith's safety in the quote you provided.

Besides that point. Tifa decided to join Cloud's party in the 2nd reactor mission, it wasn't Cloud's decision. The same way it's her decision to join the rescue mission at Shinra HQ for a woman she barely knew.

The way RPG's typically go is that the other characters follow the main character. But again, you never answered my question: without Cloud initially making the decision to save Aerith, would Tifa have done it on her own?

But I don't really care to argue about this. Tifa is awesome for wanting to rescue Aerith. But Tifa was always a kind person that cared about others. The difference is that Cloud was NOT like that at the beginning of the game, at least according to Barret. Therefore, my argument is more about highlighting a *CHANGE* in Cloud's behavior -- a positive change that is associated with the introduction of Aerith.

 

[Danseru-kun]

To be honest, I'm not surprised people here are trying to dismiss and downplay Barret's observation. But the fact is, SE included it and therefore, it is relevant to this discussion. It's not as though Cloud responded to Barret, "No, I rescued Tifa, too!" -- but that's really besides the point

That's actually a lot better than what you're doing. You downplay all characters. You argue that Cloud is a dick to everyone else except Aerith, that he only rescues Tifa out of money, that Tifa will not risk her life for Aerith, that Barret is not grateful for this woman that saved his daughter, that the whole party has no agency on their own and just follows their dick leader's decisions, and that Aerith falls in love with this dick.

Then you go ahead and put Tifa and Barret's observations, the latter which is optional, and take them as an omniscient form of knowledge because they support Clerith. In the way you debate with us, the characters only have value if they support Clerith, they don't care for each other, they can't care for themselves, and they're only there to prove that Cloud is a dick who only cares for Aerith.

 

[OniRaitei]

That's my whole point -- SE doesn't view Cloud saving Tifa as significant proof of him caring for someone else, which is why they still included Barret's observation.

So one rescue simply doesn't count? You are merely arbitrarily discounting one rescue to suit your needs.

It's not as though Cloud responded to Barret, "No, I rescued Tifa, too!" -- but that's really besides the point

Cloud isn't going to tell Barret about his cross dressing adventures.

 

[BlankBeat]

You argue that Cloud is a dick to everyone else except Aerith,

Lie.

that he only rescues Tifa out of money,

I listed several reasons why Cloud may have wanted to rescue Tifa.

that Tifa will not risk her life for Aerith,

What...?

(I'm highlighting a change in Cloud's behavior. Tifa was never not caring.)

that Barret is not grateful for this woman that saved his daughter,

What...?

that the whole party has no agency on their own and just follows their dick leader's decisions,

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I simply said that in the world of RPG video-games, it is very common for the supporting characters to do what the primary character decides to do.

and that Aerith falls in love with this dick.

She does...?

Then you go ahead and put Tifa and Barret's observations, the latter which is optional, and take them as an omniscient form of knowledge because they support Clerith.

This is the LTD thread. Of course I'm going to focus on things I believe support Clerith.

In the way you debate with us, the characters only have value if they support Clerith, they don't care for each other, they can't care for themselves, and they're only there to prove that Cloud is a dick who only cares for Aerith.

This is the LTD thread. Of course I'm going to focus on things I believe support Clerith.

-------------------

So one rescue simply doesn't count? You are merely arbitrarily discounting one rescue to suit your needs.

Why would SE include Barret's observation if they felt Cloud recusing Tifa was comparable to Cloud's desire to rescue Aerith?

I just think when you look at how SE put lots of emphasis on Barret and Cloud bantering about how Cloud was apathetic and didn't care about anything but himself, and then they decided to have Barret make this observation that highlighted a significant change in Cloud's behavior through the introduction of Aerith, it cannot be dismissed simply because Cloud also rescued Tifa.

This really comes down to opinion. I personally think Barret's observation is significant, especially when we consider Barret and Cloud's interaction during the beginning of the game. I don't think SE would include this if they thought people would simply dismiss it by saying, "Well, Cloud rescued Tifa, too!"

 

[Danseru-kun]

Lie.

A dick is someone who doesn't care about anyone, precisely what you characterized Cloud when you started the debate again.

I ship Cloud and Aerith because Aerith is the first person in the game Cloud cares for besides himself

During the beginning of the game Cloud makes it very clear that he doesn’t care about the world, AVALANCHE, or anything but himself. Only with the promise of financial reward does Cloud agree to blow up the mako reactor. Then, after Cloud’s first mission with AVALANCHE, Tifa has to promise Cloud an even larger sum of money to convince him to stay.

source

I listed several reasons why Cloud may have wanted to rescue Tifa.

Not even one about caring about her. Cloud's still a dick because he doesn't care.

What...?

You just said the party follows Cloud because the game requires it, implying that it's not because they sincerely wants to rescue Aerith. And they way you just characterized Cloud as a dick, I wonder why these amazing people would follow someone like him.

What...?
(I'm highlighting a change in Cloud's behavior. Tifa was never not caring.)

We were talking about Tifa right?

But sure, it says that Tifa is an awesome character. However, without Cloud initially making the decision to save Aerith, would Tifa have done it on her own? Probably not.

source

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I simply said that in the world of RPG video-games, it is very common for the supporting characters to do what the primary character decides to do.

Yes it's common, but you make it seem that they are robots mimicking Cloud. It seems it's so hard for you to say that yes, they also cared for Aerith. You want "risking my life to save Aerith" exclusive to Cloud.

She does...?

Given your characterization of Cloud, I feel sorry for her.

This is the LTD thread. Of course I'm going to focus on things I believe support Clerith.

This is the LTD thread. Of course I'm going to focus on things I believe support Clerith.

We know, we know, and in the process you diminish the characters.

 

[Dashell]

I find this post very offensive

 

[BlankBeat]

A dick is someone who doesn't care about anyone, precisely what you characterized Cloud when you started the debate again.

You made a broad claim: "You argue that Cloud is a dick to everyone else except Aerith..."

Do I argue that Cloud didn't seem to care for anyone prior to the introduction of Aerith? Yes. Do I argue that Cloud is always a dick throughout the entire compilation? No. Notice how I say things like, "During the beginning of the game..."

Anyway -- Cloud *IS* a dick in the beginning of the game. His dick behavior really shines during his exchanges with Barret:

Cloud: I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over...I'm outta here.

Barret: Little by little the reactors'll drain out all the life. And that'll be that.
Cloud: It's not my problem.
Barret: The planet's dyin', Cloud!
Cloud: The only thing I care about is finishin' this job before security and the Roboguards come.

Cloud: Shut up! I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER! But don't get me wrong! I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!

All of these exchanges refer to Cloud's lack of care for other people besides himself. Then, when Cloud expresses his desire to save Aerith, Barret says, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed."

Barret's observation is obviously in reference to the exchanges Cloud and him had during the beginning of the game. If you can't see the significance of this observation, I don't know what to tell you :/ To me, it is clear that SE set Cloud up to be someone that didn't seem to care for others. But then, with the introduction of Aerith, that started to change. SE helped show us this change through the exchanges Cloud had with Barret.

Not even one about caring about her. Cloud's still a dick because he doesn't care.

I did say that one of the reasons may have been that she was a childhood friend of his.

You just said the party follows Cloud because the game requires it, implying that it's not because they sincerely wants to rescue Aerith. And they way you just characterized Cloud as a dick, I wonder why these amazing people would follow someone like him.

Yes. That is true. I don't think that any of these characters would have rescued Aerith if Cloud had not decided to do so. That's what typically happens when one person is the designated leader of the group.

But as I've already stated -- good for Tifa! She's a caring person and wanted to rescue Aerith. But the point I'm making is that Cloud began to *CHANGE* because of Aerith, which tells us that Aerith is someone very special to Cloud. On the contrary, Tifa did not show any *change* by agreeing to rescue Aerith because she's always been a caring person. However, the Cloud we were introduced to at the beginning of the game would NOT have rescued Aerith. Only until getting to know Aerith, did the Cloud we were introduced to at the beginning of the game start to disappear.

Given your characterization of Cloud, I feel sorry for her.

K

 

[Dashell]

I listed several reasons why Cloud may have wanted to rescue Tifa.

Except that he cares about her

IMO Cloud cares for all his friends, he would have done the same thing for any of them, even Barret... that includes the cross dressing

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Silly Que. Cloud's not so much of an asshole he would leave a stranger he just met to the Turks, but he would leave his childhood friend to a gangster with a fondness for females, whether they be willing or no.

 

[Dashell]

Silly Que. Cloud's not so much of an asshole he would leave a stranger he just met to the Turks, but he would leave his childhood friend to a gangster with a fondness for females, whether they be willing or no.

Unless she has money

 

[BlankBeat]

Except that he cares about her

IMO Cloud cares for all his friends, he would have done the same thing for any of them, even Barret... that includes the cross dressing

I just don't get what SE's point was for including Barret's observation except to show that Cloud was starting to change because of Aerith. This becomes especially obvious when we see the exchanges SE created between Cloud and Barret at the beginning of the game (they are in my previous post if you missed 'em).

I just don't think SE would have had Cloud and Barret have these exchanges during the beginning of the game, and then have Barret make this observation about Cloud changing because of Aerith, if they thought gamers would simply say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too!" -- I just don't buy it.

To me, it is obvious (mostly because of Barret's observation) that SE doesn't view Cloud rescuing Tifa in the same way they view Cloud deciding to rescue Aerith. I'd also say it's a way more daunting task to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters than to rescue Tifa from Don Corneo.

 

[BlankBeat]

Silly Que. Cloud's not so much of an asshole he would leave a stranger he just met to the Turks

Yes. Cloud's behavior is again changing for Aerith.

 

[Dashell]

Well and the observation is fine and all but that doesn't mean that Aerith is the ONLY one he cares for... he cares for them all, it was just surprising to Barret to see Cloud fighting for someone else after he'd been such a royal dick. If they wanted us to take notice that it was Aerith, fine, but that STILL doesn't mean he had to have some other reason for rescuing Tifa like money or something

 

[Danseru-kun]

You made a broad claim: "You argue that Cloud is a dick to everyone else except Aerith..."

Do I argue that Cloud didn't seem to care for anyone prior to the introduction of Aerith? Yes. Do I argue that Cloud is always a dick throughout the entire compilation? No. Notice how I say things like, "During the beginning of the game..."

Of course I was talking about your claim that Cloud is a dick in the beginning of the game (but your arguments also put him as a dick in Advent Children where he doesn't care if a child is dying in front of him as long as it doesn't involve Aerith.)

Anyway -- Cloud *IS* a dick in the beginning of the game. His dick behavior really shines during his exchanges with Barret:


All of these exchanges refer to Cloud's lack of care for other people besides himself. Then, when Cloud expresses his desire to save Aerith, Barret says, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed."

Barret's observation is obviously in reference to the exchanges Cloud and him had during the beginning of the game. If you can't see the significance of this observation, I don't know what to tell you :/ To me, it is clear that SE set Cloud up to be someone that didn't seem to care for others. But then, with the introduction of Aerith, that started to change. SE helped show us this change through the exchanges Cloud had with Barret.

Where you refuse to acknowledge that Ultimanias state that Cloud put up a "cocky front."

dictionary says front means "a person, group, or thing used to mask the identity or true character or activity of the actual controlling agent"

I did say that one of the reasons may have been that she was a childhood friend of his.

Again, like I and Que said. You list a few reasons, not one about caring about her.

Yes. That is true. I don't think that any of these characters would have rescued Aerith if Cloud had not decided to do so. That's what typically happens when one person is the designated leader of the group.

But as I've already stated -- good for Tifa! She's a caring person and wanted to rescue Aerith. But the point I'm making is that Cloud began to *CHANGE* because of Aerith, which tells us that Aerith is someone very special to Cloud. On the contrary, Tifa did not show any *change* by agreeing to rescue Aerith because she's always been a caring person. However, the Cloud we were introduced to at the beginning of the game would NOT have rescued Aerith. Only until getting to know Aerith, did the Cloud we were introduced to at the beginning of the game start to disappear.

In which you completely refuse to accept that Cloud just puts up a cocky front from the start and that he rescued Tifa because he cares for her.

Cloud didn't really change after meeting Aerith, we just finally get opportunities to see him drop his cocky facade.

 

[Unlucky]

To summarize: Cloud's efforts to save anybody/ his caring behavior towards anyone else is NOTHING compared to the things he did for this one and only person-- Aerith.

On top of that, he's also a magnificent arsehole for a protagonist, and only the same woman, Aerith, can ever manage to bring out the good in him. Only towards her of course.

Gee I wonder how this AU Cloud looks like?

Spoiler: Does this come close?

 

[Danseru-kun]

I just don't get what SE's point was for including Barret's observation except to show that Cloud was starting to change because of Aerith. This becomes especially obvious when we see the exchanges SE created between Cloud and Barret at the beginning of the game (they are in my previous post if you missed 'em).

I just don't think SE would have had Cloud and Barret have these exchanges during the beginning of the game, and then have Barret make this observation about Cloud changing because of Aerith, if they thought gamers would simply say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too!" -- I just don't buy it.

To me, it is obvious (mostly because of Barret's observation) that SE doesn't view Cloud rescuing Tifa in the same way they view Cloud deciding to rescue Aerith. I'd also say it's a way more daunting task to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters than to rescue Tifa from Don Corneo.

Barret's observation is so important for SE that they made it optional and they make no effort to confirm it to be canon.

(Unless the Memorial Script includes it, can anyone confirm?)

 

[BlankBeat]

Well and the observation is fine and all but that doesn't mean that Aerith is the ONLY one he cares for... he cares for them all, it was just surprising to Barret to see Cloud fighting for someone else after he'd been such a royal dick. If they wanted us to take notice that it was Aerith, fine, but that STILL doesn't mean he had to have some other reason for rescuing Tifa like money or something

I just honestly think if SE viewed Cloud rescuing Tifa the same way they viewed Cloud rescuing Aerith, I don't think they would have included Barret's observation. If SE thought gamers would simply write off Barret's observation and say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too," why did they include it, then? Sort of a rhetorical question, BTW.

SE made it a point to have Cloud and Barret banter back-and-forth about Cloud not caring for anyone but himself. This bantering, I believe, was intentionally included to set up Barret's observation about Aerith being the first person Cloud was willing to fight for besides himself.

--------------------

Danseru-kun,

I have no problem acknowledging the "cocky front" quote. Cloud put down his cocky-front for Aerith, therefore showing us his caring side.

Oh and I honestly would like to know: was Denzel the only child Cloud saw dying? To me, it's clear that at least part of the reason Cloud decided to help Denzel was because Cloud thought Aerith brought Denzel to him.

 

[Octo]

Barrets observation was character development, he thought Cloud was a heartless dick and then he realized he was wrong. Thats why it was indcluded. It's not got anything to do with romance.

 

[BlankBeat]

Barrets observation was character development, he thought Cloud was a heartless dick and then he realized he was wrong. Thats why it was indcluded. It's not got anything to do with romance.

I find it very curious that this observation was wedged between these two things:
1. Cloud admitting to Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.
2. Tifa witnessing Cloud and Aerith developing their own world together and getting jealous about it.


To me, Barret's observation was showing that Aerith is someone very special to Cloud and that the reason has to do with his romantic feelings for her. I just think that Barret's observation helps paint a picture of mutual romantic feelings between them.